The Terrible Truth About Audio!

[Krunchy]

Nothing you all dont already know but figured you might get a chuckle out of it. I came across this article while looking up Jolida amps, his second paragraph was just too funny (& true!).
He's got some good points.

"We live in the most technologically advanced age of man, yet ironically virtually ALL the audio gear that is mass marketed to the home consumer is among the cheapest and worse sounding EVER made. If all you have heard is what's at Best Buy, Circuit City, the local audio "shack", or in your friends Honda Civic, (no matter WHAT he's got in there) then it is absolutely safe to say you never heard stereo sound reproduced well."

"The problem is, "major brand" companies make stereo gear for one reason: To make money selling it. The more money they can make, the happier they are. They don't particularly care about your listening pleasure. They are corporations with bottom lines. They get away with it because most people don't know that their ear can be "tricked". Manufacturers know this, and they have learned that they can make really bad gear sound better by coloring it's sound to appeal to you over a short term. Now, your ear is only fooled for a little while but they are counting on you only auditioning it for 10 minutes or less, which is just long enough to fool you into buying garbage. Best Buy makes money, the companies that made the crap make tons of money, and you go home and never put the stereo on because you find after a half hour you're "tired" of it. It's your ear that is tired. It figured out the trick, knows what it's hearing isn't right and the fatigue is it's way of telling your brain to make it go away." :applaud::D


Here's the link
http://www.indiespinzone.com/other/highend.html


I guess a little leg never hurts, yikes !?
http://www.indiespinzone.com/other/retro.jpg

[Allanvh5150]

It really has nothing to do with audio at all. It has everything to do with the fact that most people are happy paying the minimum amount for a crappy product. It may be crap to us but most people just dont care and they don't have the money. Large companies make large amounts of money by selling large amounts of average product. It is not the fault of any particular company that some or all of their product is well below average. People who are intested in sound will generally have good gear. Proffesional musicains generally dont purchase $100 guitar paks from Walmart and I doubt very much that Michael Schumacher has a Toyota in his garage.:)

Allan.

[SEAWOLF97]

>>I doubt very much that Michael Schumacher has a Toyota in his garage

he may have this one :D



but ,OnTopic...most put up with the least cost product to get the job done..many people listening to music wud consider forum members obsessive.

[Krunchy]

People who are intested in sound will generally have good gear. Proffesional musicains generally dont purchase $100 guitar paks from Walmart and I doubt very much that Michael Schumacher has a Toyota in his garage.:) Allan.

:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:


most put up with the least cost product to get the job done..many people listening to music wud consider forum members obsessive.

Without a doubt! But then again the chivalric order of LH forumites probably wouldnt mind such labels as long a we got our beloved JBLs & Altecs to keep us company all is good & right with the world.

[Tom Brennan]

I don't hold with the notions in the OP at all. Much of the mass market hi-fi gear found in large stores sounds pretty damned good; I'm thinking especially of the JVC and Panasonic chip-amp receivers I've heard, some of them used with pretty exotic speakers.

And cheap Sony, Pioneer and Toshiba DVD players are very good sounding sources.

As for speakers, well a little trip over to Guitar Center will expose you to many good sounding and cheap small monitors. My little KRK ST-6s at $200 the pair sound better to me than "audiophile" speakers of the type (small woofers with dome tweets) that cost many times the price.

In any event when someone is enjoying something I'm not one to tell them they're not enjoying it. Sounds kinda.....ridiculous.

Hell, the jasper who wrote the article referred to in the OP doesn't even know what a monitor is. And he has something to sell. And I never trust a guy uses the term "high end"; that's marketing talk. I'm with the old timers, I call it "hi-fi".

[Krunchy]

Tom you're killing me :rotfl: you'd be a fun guy to have a beer with (if you drink beer that is, or anything of the sort for that matter). I would have to say that my biggest problem with the gear in places like best buy & the sort is not the sound quality per se, for me at least it has more to do with the quality.
Most of these products just dont have a very long half life at all, & are almost guaranteed to crap out in the not too distant future. Its a gross generalization but with some truth to it. The stuff a guit center is probably better as they know it will get a good beating in its lifetime.

None the less, I stand by the entertainment value of the article, high or low end, I could care less. I stopped reading once his pitch came in

"I never trust a guy uses the term "high end" :rotfl: :jawdrop: :D :applaud: Bravo!

[Doc Mark]

Evening, All,

I thought that article was hilarious!! I'm still laughing about it, in fact! :applaud::D Sweet Bride loved the part about women not being true audiophiles, too. Guess the author has never met our Heather, eh?! ;):D Fun piece, that's for sure, even if it wasn't totally factual. Thanks for sharing it, Krunchy, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc (still giggling.....)

[Ducatista47]

RE: chip amps and cheap DVD players sounding pretty good. That is relative (if I am allowed an opinion). To me they sound tolerable until you hear something better, which is still far short of the "high end" in price but equal or not far off in sound and quality. JoLida is a leader in that category.

A friend of mine who runs an audio shop deals with Mike Allen all the time. That would be the head of JoLida. He seems to be a straight shooter and his pieces offer fantastic value. They sound great, cost a lot less than High End snob appeal fashion statements, and I should know. I actually own a 502B myself. It makes the 2245's sound much better than any SS amps I have tried, 6260's and 6290's for instance. My CD player is also a JoLida.

I looked into the site the OP article is on and had a lot of fun. I started at the home page and found some neat stuff. http://www.indiespinzone.com/ Check out the Rant section and "DOWNLOADS- The Death Of Us All."

This page is the preamble to the posted article. http://www.indiespinzone.com/stylin.html

I found more truth than anything else in this amusing site. Great speakers do indeed make crappy stuff ahead of it sound like the crap that it is. I think most who put down good tube gear have not experienced that yet.

And where did they find all that great old cheesy illustration?

Clark

[Tom Brennan]

RE: chip amps and cheap DVD players sounding pretty good. That is relative (if I am allowed an opinion). To me they sound tolerable until you hear something better, which is still far short of the "high end" in price but equal or not far off in sound and quality. JoLida is a leader in that category.


I've owned quite a bit of tube gear and right now I own two Jolida amps, a 102B and a 302B-RC. And in my somewhat informed opinion some cheap chip-amps sound quite good. I've even heard an excellent system that consisted of a Sonic Impact and LOWTHERS in Medallion cabinets. And ole Kurt Chang's DIY dipoles with 72" B&G planars and 8-18" Eminences; all properly EQed and powered by a pair of JVC chip receivers.

My opinion.

[Ducatista47]

Tom is more than entitled to his opinion. His JoLidas are smaller, better sounding models than mine. The 102 is really, really sweet with the right tubes. (To be fair, the gear I listen with now sounds a lot better than JoLidas, but cost less than the 502B. Smaller, fewer watts.)

Maybe it is substandard hearing on my part, but EQ gets in the way of the music for me. And even well thought of SS gear gives me listener fatigue. To each his own.

Clark

[Titanium Dome]

Well, geez, you guys are all full of it. The only stuff that sounds right is what I've got. When are you going to get with it? :moon:

[Allanvh5150]

So tell us TD, how does it sound?

[duaneage]

Considering the source for the music varies wildly I think a reasonable compromise can be made between the absolute best and worst equipment out there. Sure, 110 db 20hz - 20khz with flat response in a large venue may be someone's goal but overall our listening rooms and requirements are far from ideal. Music produced 30-40 years ago was not recorded all that well, popular music is electronically manufactured these days. Jazz and Classical remain the best recorded IMHO and give a system the best workout.

The average room is far from perfect for acoustics unless great effort and expense is made to improve it. Best system in the market would sound bad in a tiled floor room with weird ceilings, glass doors and little furniture. By contrast a small set of book shelves carefully placed in a quiet room with an adequate sub should sound reasonably good at low to medium levels. Pushed up too hard and it will be harsh but that is the compromise.

I never bought into the SS versus tube argument, I think vinyl sounds different but not necessarily better, wire is wire to me, and I like EQ and other processors in moderation.

I do agree the quality of today's equipment is in doubt. The engineering is fantastic as even chip amps perform in ways thought impossible 20 years ago, but the controls and cases are injected plastic. Compared to vintage gear the feel of the knobs and switches is lacking. Digital switching may be better technically, but the feedback from the controls makes the difference in the long run.

I also see nothing wrong with the notion of making audio gear for profit, that is what companies are supposed to do and the loss of so many principled manufacturers who refused to adjust to market realities is the result. It may not be possible to build equipment like they used to profitably and compete with mass production from China. I submit that there are still vintage pieces in the used market and kits available new to satisfy the quality conscious for now.

[dino]

I think alot of cheap sounding crap is sold here in the good old usa but I also think overseas is were most of your good hi end audio eq is sold. [ like jbl] Just like MLK had a dream I have a dream were all americans can walk into the nearest audio store and listen to all jbl speakers new and old

[BMWCCA]

I have a dream were all americans can walk into the nearest audio store and listen to all jbl speakers new and oldAnd then you wake-up! :D

[Titanium Dome]

I think alot of cheap sounding crap is sold here in the good old usa but I also think overseas is were most of your good hi end audio eq is sold. [ like jbl] Just like MLK had a dream I have a dream were all americans can walk into the nearest audio store and listen to all jbl speakers new and old

I still dream about that as a retirement activity. JBLs old and new in a nice listening environment, easily compared, fairly priced, and if you don't want to pay what I'm asking, then get the hell out. :applaud:

[Ducatista47]

It may not be possible to build equipment like they used to profitably and compete with mass production from China.

There is at least one exception, so there are probably more. I jumped on my little Grommes amp after auditioning it and considering it a great value. The Chinese manufactures looked at the Grommes amps and could not figure out how to even build them for what Grommes sells them for, never mind how to make a profit on them.

Grommes assembles in Gurnee, Illinois. They source parts locally or at least from the USA whenever possible, and actually manufacture parts as well. Their transformers are custom designed for each application and not made in China. They just don't charge much for the finished product, the opposite of the High End practice of selling for obscene profit on each unit to a few well heeled customers. The result, one thousand dollar price, ten thousand dollar sound.

The bad news is, it is so difficult to get reviewed in today's market without paying huge bribes in the guise of advertisements, no one is buying them and Grommes may quit that end of the business. I happen to shop at one of their thirteen dealers. Otherwise I would never have heard of them, let alone heard them.

They did "cheat" in one way. They hired Alan Kimmel to design them, a la Welborne and Modwright. Brains can still beat greed sometimes, good to know.

Rega turntables, a UK firm I believe, is another example of great value. Their products are not cheap, but they charge a fraction what the High End does for product and is probably 97% there when they are not 100% there. Naturally, the High End snobs consider them total crap.

Not much, I know, but at least a few glimmers of hope.

Clark.

[hjames]

There is at least one exception, so there are probably more. I jumped on my little Grommes amp after auditioning it and considering it a great value. The Chinese manufactures looked at the Grommes amps and could not figure out how to even build them for what Grommes sells them for, never mind how to make a profit on them.

Grommes assembles in Gurnee, Illinois. They source parts locally or at least from the USA whenever possible, and actually manufacture parts as well. Their transformers are custom designed for each application and not made in China. They just don't charge much for the finished product, the opposite of the High End practice of selling for obscene profit on each unit to a few well heeled customers. The result, one thousand dollar price, ten thousand dollar sound.

Clark.

Well, you could give them a bump -

I believe this is their website: http://www.grommeshifi.com/

[Ducatista47]

Thanks, Heather. Unfortunately, their web site is terrible and has never even mentioned the amp I have, or some of their other Alan Kimmel designed products. It has never been updated as far as I can tell. The best you can do is call for the nearest dealer. It has been a long time since this company has sold to the public and it shows.

Middle ground is hard to find in the marketplace. This stuff sells for too little to impress the snob by-appointment-only shops. It is way too good (and built to order) for the big box stores. I would guess most dealers are inactive with the brand (didn't sell many) and would steer you to something else. Since they were relying on the dealer network, they are screwed without those approve-by-bribe High End magazines and websites. Their ace sales rep quit for greener pastures and went to Manley the last I heard. A good man, but he has to eat. Manley plays the High End game and dances the High End dance.

The parent company is larger and their master site is a slightly better effort.
http://www.grommesprecision.com/

I got very lucky when I called them years ago. Alan was still working there and they put him on the line! At this point it takes a long time for them to build one for a dealer. I got the impression that one guy does all the assembly and you are out of luck when he is on vacation. When an amp sells used online, rare as there are so few, they go for half price as no one knows what they are.

Clark

[SEAWOLF97]

Rega turntables, a UK firm I believe, is another example of great value. Their products are not cheap, but they charge a fraction what the High End does for product and is probably 97% there when they are not 100% there. Naturally, the High End snobs consider them total crap.
Clark.

Not arguing Clark , but

Rega - P1 Turntable w/Ortofon OM5e Cartridge


Stabilized MDF platter

Stabilized MDF platter just does not inspire the thought of quality ...it may be perfect and so much better than cast alloy, but its not really a feature that I look for.

[speakerdave]

. . . . In any event when someone is enjoying something I'm not one to tell them they're not enjoying it . . . .

But an important part of his point is that they likely are not listening very much and for the reason he gives.

Beyond that, I think the inequality of the mass-produced sound systems are an important determining factor in the kind of music people listen to. They listen to music that the low quality sound reproducers do not interfere with: Rap? Digital pop/rock? Golden oldies? I could listen to that music on a Best Buy system for awhile, but not Bach, not Vivaldi, not Miles's muted trumpet, not Kiri te Kanawa singing Mozart's Ave Verum, or Richard coeur del Lion, or Buena Vista Social Club or Tallis, or Hamza el Din, or Mahler, or Count Basie, or Anything requiring a grand piano. I think a large part of the real cost of this fake music reproducing equipment is cultural.

[SEAWOLF97]

Much of the mass market hi-fi gear found in large stores sounds pretty damned good

yeah...those are just fine for the MP3 generation who doesnt really care about build quality..price is the driving force....would you trade your Altecs for any of them ?

Those systems that you like so much are DISPOSABLE.. Can you see anyone taking that in for repair when it breaks ? or just tossing it and buying another cheapie ?

My 27 y.o. son has my L100s and a mid level Denon receiver...his friends marvel at the great sound quality like none they've ever heard. He may be changing kids listening habits all by himself. :bouncy:

[Ducatista47]

Not arguing Clark , but

Rega - P1 Turntable w/Ortofon OM5e Cartridge


Stabilized MDF platter

Stabilized MDF platter just does not inspire the thought of quality ...it may be perfect and so much better than cast alloy, but its not really a feature that I look for.

Total agreement here. The P1 is the bottom of the line and I am not sure what it competes with directly. Since an indirect drive turntable needs a heavy, homogeneous, dimensionally stable platter, it does sound like a reasonable engineering solution. And a terrible marketing tool. Like a concrete sink. It works very well, but it gets no warm & fuzzy points.

My P5, the middle of the line, has a thick clear glass platter. It does look impressive and does the job, but what I most like about the model is its tonearm. The same one the much pricier P7 has. The P7 and P9 have high tech platters and cost like it. Once you get to this level of engineering I think more about the tonearm and cartridge than the base and platter.


yeah...those are just fine for the MP3 generation who doesnt really care about build quality..price is the driving force....would you trade your Altecs for any of them ?

Those systems that you like so much are DISPOSABLE.. Can you see anyone taking that in for repair when it breaks ? or just tossing it and buying another cheapie ?


Things not designed to be worked on have been the bane of my material existence for at least a generation. :biting: I put nearly all solid state electronics in that category because of their construction, density, difficult access, and the challenging, non intuitive nature of their layouts and workings. They tend to be just plain complicated as compared to tube (valve) units. First Watt amps are an exception, and perhaps all PassLabs gear are. Haven't seen the inside of any.

I get a very good look at the inside of a large vintage Japanese receiver at least once a month. They take them in at the audio shop I go to. I don't care what brand, an absolute nightmare of complexity and density. They are even mechanically daunting. A few say to go ahead and fix them. Most convert them to paperweights or try to sell off the hulk. They also tend to have what I call the laptop computer problem. Ever see a laptop taken completely apart? It happens a lot, because the charging port, the part that fails the most and the least expensive part in the unit, is the very last thing you can get to during disassembly. Everything major in the bottom half has to be removed first. Idiots.


Since they were relying on the dealer network, they are screwed without those approve-by-bribe High End magazines and websites. Their ace sales rep quit for greener pastures and went to Manley the last I heard. A good man, but he has to eat. Manley plays the High End game and dances the High End dance.


Here is the link to one of the few reviews Grommes got, and the only mention of my little amp - the shrimp - other than show reports. http://www.stereotimes.com/amp103105.shtml

An excerpt from it is about the legendary salesman of which I was speaking, the company, and the designer Alan:


Finding a new old friend
I was in one of my favorite audio “watering holes”, Holm Audio, in Woodridge, IL, when a blast from the past came in with his normal buzz of audio activity. Albert Schippits, marketing director of Grommes Hifi (and one-time sales manager at Holm Audio) was out making the rounds. I hadn’t seen Schippits for long time and it seemed as though he was in rare form. He had brought in this little shrimp of an integrated/headphone amp called the Grommes PHI-26. He had it hooked up to and was driving (yes, driving) a rather large pair of Coincident Technology. To honest, I had not been impressed by these speakers until now, but this little amp made them sound surprisingly pleasant. Of course, Schippits said it would do so, and do it better than anything else in the store. We, of course, we did not believe him, and as usual, he proved to be right again. I trust everyone has a friend like Schippits. He’s the guy who seems to know a lot about what’s going on in the world and has inside information on everything else. Pretty much like Mel Gibson’s quirky character, Jerry Fletcher, from the film “Conspiracy Theory.”

Schippits will tell you that he really does knows who assassinated President Kennedy, what’s in Hangar 18 at Wright-Patterson AFB, and about every other conspiracy that’s currently being put upon the American people by all kinds of subversive interests. I usually find all that to be just so much hyperbole, but there was no denying the fact that the guy could hear music, and I’ve learned to trust his ears. Schippits has this habit of explaining how a piece of equipment would go through various stages while it was warming up or breaking in and making it all sound so incredible that it was impossible to believe. I would just accept his explanations as those of an audio lunatic who was going through burnout. However, on more than a few occasions, I came away from discussions with Schippits thinking he had lost his marbles, only to get a piece of equipment home and being amazed to discover it doing exactly what he said it would. He’s even been by my house and made some suggestions on how to enhance the sound in my listening room that proved to be quite helpful. Schippits explained to me how he decided to leave the retail arena for a more fulfilling endeavor in the marketing end of the manufacturing business.

Grommes-Precision Electronics, Inc., as Schippits explained, has been around for quite a while, making home electronics from the 1950s to the 1970s right here in Illinois, just north of Chicago in Franklin Park. They then began to focus on the professional audio segment of the market, making equipment for bands and studios. Within the last few years, they moved their operations to Gurnee, Illinois, and thankfully, came back to the home audio market. Personally, I had not heard of Grommes and I’ve lived in the Chicago area all my life. So this was an eye opening experience for me as well.

Looking back into the future
Initially, I was not overly impressed when I finally got to see the Grommes 360 monoblock amplifiers that Schippits was so high on. They just did not look like serious contenders. But lead designer, Alan Kimmel, is one of those guys you could spend hours talking audio with, and I was very impressed with him. He has a pure knowledge and understanding of how audio equipment should work and how it should do so without breaking the bank. He’s very thorough and tests everything to make sure his amps perform up to specifications. He’s very protective of his circuit and there is no compromising for doing a thorough job. I questioned Schippits on the Grommes design goal to which he responded: “On design goals, #1 is reliability. It all sounds alike when it doesn't work! #2 is consistency. Our 500th amp measures and sounds like our first. #3 Musicality over specs. If a good spec makes the amp sound worse don't care about that spec. Like THD, this spec leads to bad sounding equipment more than anything else. We feel a lot of amps are lazy designs that measure well but lack musical value.”

That is a philosophy I could not agree more with. On the last point, the usual practice is to employ four or five gain stages, for cheap power, and pour on the negative feedback to get .005% THD. Measures like a dream, and music sounds like a steaming yet lifeless pile of crap through it. Works for Best Buy and a lot of expensive brand name & boutique gear too. Truth be told, almost every powerful amp is designed and built that way. When was the last time you saw posted specs of 0.6% to 1.5% THD? Alan published those for the little Grommes PHI-26. Best sounding amp I have ever heard.

Look at the distortion specs on this page, a very good quality classic tube power amp by Grommes. If you doubt the age, notice the CPS rather than HZ references. http://www.grommeshifi.com/products/260a/260a.htm

Clark

PS I have heard the 60 watt amp reviewed in the article many times. It is too big to sound as good as my little amp, but it is awesome. And the transformers are huge for a 60 watt monoblock. If $4000 US for two monoblocks sounds like a lot, they are being compared to amps costing from several to many times as much. An eBay sale last year netted $2000 for a pair that still had the new on them.

The reason they function well with no preamp is Alan's Mu Stage circuit. The front end of the amp, it typically yields 30dB of noiseless, distortion free gain using no negative feedback at all. As close to a miracle as there is in the audio electronics world.

[Tom Brennan]

Those systems that you like so much are DISPOSABLE.. Can you see anyone taking that in for repair when it breaks ? or just tossing it and buying another cheapie ?

:bouncy:


OK, you toss it in the trash and buy another. No big deal as long as it and the replacement sound good and I maintain that often they do. And I'm not an MP3 generation guy.

[Tom Brennan]

But an important part of his point is that they likely are not listening very much and for the reason he gives.

............ I could listen to that music on a Best Buy system for awhile, but not Bach, not Vivaldi, not Miles's muted trumpet, not Kiri te Kanawa singing Mozart's Ave Verum, or Richard coeur del Lion, or Buena Vista Social Club or Tallis, or Hamza el Din, or Mahler, or Count Basie, or Anything requiring a grand piano. I think a large part of the real cost of this fake music reproducing equipment is cultural.


What, so you think everybody listening to that music has a nice hi-fi? I kind'a doubt it, statistically it wouldn't seem possible. Then there are all the people I know who listen to such music on ipods and inexpensive, non hi-fi stereos. I listen to Wagner on youtube.

[robertbartsch]

The problem has arisen as a result of the advent of multi-channel HT systems and mp3 files and such.

Consequently, this blows and it is not apt to change anytime soon.

Therefore, the golden age of Hi-Fi has come and, unfortunately, is now long gone.

By-the-way, the Bose company does not help matters. They almost single-handedly ruined the entire industry.

[Krunchy]

Things not designed to be worked on have been the bane of my material existence for at least a generation.

Ever see a laptop taken completely apart? It happens a lot, because the charging port, the part that fails the most and the least expensive part in the unit, is the very last thing you can get to during disassembly. Everything major in the bottom half has to be removed first. Idiots.
Clark
Thank you for all your insight Clark, much appreciated :) ;)



Looking back into the future
I questioned Schippits on the Grommes design goal to which he responded: “On design goals, #1 is reliability. It all sounds alike when it doesn't work! #2 is consistency. Our 500th amp measures and sounds like our first. #3 Musicality over specs. If a good spec makes the amp sound worse don't care about that spec. Like THD, this spec leads to bad sounding equipment more than anything else. We feel a lot of amps are lazy designs that measure well but lack musical value.”

That is a philosophy I could not agree more with. On the last point, the usual practice is to employ four or five gain stages, for cheap power, and pour on the negative feedback to get .005% THD. Measures like a dream, and music sounds like a steaming yet lifeless pile of crap through it. Works for Best Buy and a lot of expensive brand name & boutique gear too. Truth be told, almost every powerful amp is designed and built that way. When was the last time you saw posted specs of 0.6% to 1.5% THD? Alan published those for the little Grommes PHI-26. Best sounding amp I have
That kind of philosophy is indeed quite rare these days, but it is nice to know someone out there still follows it.



I thought that article was hilarious!! I'm still laughing about it, in fact! Thanks for sharing it, Krunchy, and God Bless!
Every Good Wish,
Doc (still giggling.....)
Doc you are very welcome, entertaining and informative discussions, what more could one ask for?! ;)
& thank you for the blessings, i'll take them anyway I can get them.



By-the-way, the Bose company does not help matters. They almost single-handedly ruined the entire industry.

:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

[duaneage]

By-the-way, the Bose company does not help matters. They almost single-handedly ruined the entire industry.

Went in one of their retail stores for a laugh the other day. Thousands of dollars for a plastic little receiver and a couple of plastic speaker boxes. I told him I would rather buy a decent set of classic JBLs and a vintage Japanese receiver.

He told the tale about all the engineering that went into them and how remarkable they are. Future talk about style and integration. I asked him one question: What do you think they will be selling for on ebay in 20 years?

Silence.

[MikeBrewster77]

Awwww, c’mon, cheer up champ - it’s not THAT bad :).

Maybe I’m deluding myself, but I refuse to buy into the much touted end of the golden era of audio, and even more so, I’d actually dispute the premise that there ever was such an era.

I said this before in a previous post, but there has been crap equipment since the very dawn of audio reproduction just as there have been competing formats (think disc vs. cylinder for gramophones) endless upgrades ("use sapphire instead of steel needles!") and all of the other trends we’ve come to have a love/hate relationship with in this hobby.

MP3’s are functionally equivalent to 8-track or cassette tapes really (only they’re actually a bit quieter and there's no physical media) and fads in multi-channel reproduction have been around for quite some time as well *cough* QUADRAPHONIC *cough*. IMHO, the whole world’s not going to hell in a hand basket, the sky is not falling, and $100K turntable/tonearm/cartridge combinations are still available for those willing and able to make the investment.

And in the end, the level of investment is what it really all comes down to, isn’t it? Most people (some might argue most sane people) are simply unwilling to plunk down the kind of cash that could buy them a new car on something as “frivolous” as a stereo. I know it’s a foreign concept to us, but we’re the minority – we always have been, and we likely always will be.

So while I’ll agree that the trends continue towards portability and multi-sensory experiences, and that these often are lesser quality formats, I highly doubt that we’ve yet heard the best technology can offer in terms of sound reproduction, and that despite the odds, there will continue to be a niche market for high-end audio.

P.S., The Bose thing I can't dispute :biting:

P.P.S., Golden age of audio my ass - I rest my "case" ;)

[robertbartsch]

...Elvis (and the audio industry) has left the building!

[Tom Brennan]

Went in one of their retail stores for a laugh the other day. Thousands of dollars for a plastic little receiver and a couple of plastic speaker boxes. I told him I would rather buy a decent set of classic JBLs and a vintage Japanese receiver.


Wow, you really told him. Like he cared.

[Robh3606]

You know we have gone through this before. HT is the bane now it was Stereo when it first came out. My god you needed a pair of speakers coming from a mono set-up and a special cartridge and preamp,another amplifier and an updated FM tuner!!!

I think the idea we are past the Golden Era is quite a bit extreme. I also agree with Tom that many entry level systems sound pretty good considering the cost of them. It's not all plastic either. All my stuff are steel chasis with aluminum face plates, even my Denon Universal player isn't plastic. None of my stuff is TOTL I guess it is MidFi in snobofile jargon but it suites me fine and makes me happy.

As far as surround goes well I can fire up my system and get treated to a thrilling experience or a relaxing walk through the forest depending on the soundtrack. Beat's the daylights out of any movie theater experience I have ever had and I can take the ride any time I want. Works for me.

Rob:)

[speakerdave]

What I mean is that different kinds of music are different kinds of sound and that some kinds will be disadvantaged with certain shortcomings in the reproductive chain and others not so much. I don't think it's an extravagant claim, nor is it really that difficult to understand. Anecdotes about what this person or that person does really have no relevance to the point. In an infinitely variable world you can find an example of anything. Still there are trends and patterns and there are reasons for them. My statement is a conjectural linkage between a couple of the patterns. At risk of enticing you into an extended sampling of anecdotes, let me say that Hilary Hahn playing Bach partitas is listenible on some electronics and speakers and not on others.


What, so you think everybody listening to that music has a nice hi-fi? I kind'a doubt it, statistically it wouldn't seem possible. Then there are all the people I know who listen to such music on ipods and inexpensive, non hi-fi stereos. I listen to Wagner on youtube.

[Krunchy]

It's not all plastic either. All my stuff are steel chasis with aluminum face plates, even my Denon Universal player isn't plastic. None of my stuff is TOTL I guess it is MidFi in snobofile jargon but it suites me fine and makes me happy.

As far as surround goes well I can fire up my system and get treated to a thrilling experience or a relaxing walk through the forest depending on the soundtrack. Beat's the daylights out of any movie theater experience I have ever had and I can take the ride any time I want. Works for me.
Rob:)
& for me, I liked your system quite a bit Rob, & I agree 100% on the theater reference it sounded great, but I personally would not call your system MidFi by a long shot, that description would only be applicable if you were surrounded by audiophiles :D
Denon makes some really fine units & they are not necessarily cheap either. For me personally I think more of the $300.00 system that comes with speakers, receiver, cd/dvd player, & a complimentary david spade movie. Separate components in the $100.00 range I cannot see being worthwhile but I could be wrong, will never know for sure, not from a superior sense induced by 8 beers but more from a feeling that even if it sounded fine/ok it would most likely break on day 91. I'd just as soon save me cash & get something a little better or used gear.

For young teenagers (10:blink:-15?) that $300 system or $100 separates would be fine, I would think.

HiFi, LowFi & dare I say it Tom, High End (I use that term at least 6 1/2 time a day :D) is all realative in the end.

Back in the day (junior & high school days) if anyone had JBLs they were said to have a very fine & fancy system (regardless of what they had powering those JBLs :rotfl:) and became the stuff of legend & you wanted to go to their parties (needles to say none of my friends or I had these fabulous speakers :( but we did go to a lot of parties :)).
So in that sense we all have High End, TOTL or Ass Kicking systems...& thats a good thing isnt it?

Yes, yes it is.

[Tom Brennan]

At risk of enticing you into an extended sampling of anecdotes, let me say that Hilary Hahn playing Bach partitas is listenible on some electronics and speakers and not on others.

Listenable or not to whom? If you don't want to trade anecdotes then the burden is on you to show some overall relationship between enjoying certain types of music and owning a hi-fi since you seem to making the claim such a relationship exists.

[speakerdave]

. . . . I don't think it's an extravagant claim, nor is it really that difficult to understand . . . .

Oops!. Guess I was wrong about that! My bad.

[duaneage]

Wow, you really told him. Like he cared.
I wasn't trying to show the guy up. Why would I care? I listened to his pitch patiently, left a comment and asked him a straight question.

Plenty of other people would have launched into an anti Bose tirade. The systems sounded OK, but in the controlled environment and with movie soundtracks they do OK. But they are not worth 4 thousand dollars and the future value of them is most likely nil. Most people regret getting rid of their old equipment. The bose stuff blends into the decor and ends up as furniture without standing out. Works for the wife but soon becomes forgettable.

It's not a battle. They probably sell quite a few systems a week, they would have to move something to keep the lights on.

[Rolf]

Many years ago I was working in a "hi-fi" shop, where the goal was not to sell "crap" gear. Just good (an expensive) stuff.

One year later, the shop was full of "crap" gear, and I quit.

[pierce]

my biggest complaint about so much of whats sold into the retail market today, once you get past the gimmicks and cheap plastic trimmings, is the lack of coherence between the bass and midrange. There's just no way a subwoofer and a 3" 'mid' radiator can cover the all important 100-800hz evenly and smoothly, no matter how much money you throw at it (and, the Bose's of the world throw that money at their marketing and advertising rather than engineering).

[Tom Brennan]

There's just no way a subwoofer and a 3" 'mid' radiator can cover the all important 100-800hz evenly and smoothly, no matter how much money you throw at it

I dunno about that, my pal Kurt Chang made the OBs in the foreground with 3" Fostexes crossing over to the sub in the middle. Sounded pretty damned good (with regards to tone, not dynamics of course) with no apparent thinness in the upper bass-lower midrange.

And we had the VOTs in the same room and a set of Danley Unity-Contrabasses too. Maybe the JBL Pro box Kurt made the baffles from helped? ;)

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh92/Irishtom29/FostexandVOTs.jpg

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh92/Irishtom29/FostexonJBLopenbaffle.jpg

[pierce]

ok, I probably should have said, a sub-cubic foot sub with a 8" driver :D

[jblsound]

my biggest complaint about so much of whats sold into the retail market today, once you get past the gimmicks and cheap plastic trimmings, is the lack of coherence between the bass and midrange. There's just no way a subwoofer and a 3" 'mid' radiator can cover the all important 100-800hz evenly and smoothly, no matter how much money you throw at it (and, the Bose's of the world throw that money at their marketing and advertising rather than engineering).

I've been saying that since the big bang of HT/MC systems. With all these new speaker companies coming out with small HTiB, and in many cases, not much bigger satellite speakers.

I've been listening to L212 for 30 years (and now the PT800) with their very good 8" mid-bass drivers. And because of that experience, everytime I hear other systems with their 3"~5" drivers I notice right off what I'm not hearing, the mid-bass.

In fact, right now I'm listening to a pair of wall mounted L212s, running full range w/o a sub. With boundry reinforcement of the wall, easly getting to 40 htz, maybe even closer to 35 htz.