JBL no longer studio monitor of choice.

[Akira]

While JBL is firmly entrenched in the large control room film mixing stage, just about any engineer will tell you it is only due to consistency match ups with the actual theater installations. These speakers are meant to penetrate a physical screen.
A more disturbing trend is JBL are almost non existent in the huge project and home studio market where small 2ways dominate. I'd love to have a pair of LSR 6328's but, I find the younger guys have never heard of them. JBL seems to be a myth they might have heard about in an ancient tale from across the sea--disturbing to me anyway. The future is always youth. An entire generation has grown up never hearing the product.:(

[hjames]

... The future is always youth. An entire generation has grown up never hearing the product.:(


Well, an entire generation has never heard good fidelity either. With low-res MP3s as the product of choice, why bother with JBLs? Do you really want to show the traces of pitch-shifted vocals and excess compression on a monitor where every flaw is visible?
Its like Phil Spector playing through car radio speakers to test what his target audience would hear ...

I blame Todd Rundgren for starting folks on this path!!:D

[robertbartsch]

Yeh, I think they are loosing in a lot of markets and I assume this will continue.

Some of the products they offered in the home market over the last few years have been total garabge. When you do this, it has long lasting impacts. Dido for Kliphorn.

[Akira]

I blame Todd Rundgren for starting folks on this path!!:D

A Wizard a True Star...I didn't know Todd invented the Mp3

[jcrobso]

When I started buying JBL in the mid 1960s nobody had ever heard of them either. I felt like a lone crusader, I'm sure other long time JBL fans felt the same way.:(
JBL was never into heavy advertising like that other company(aka: Bo$e, If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bull). If you go to Japan JBL speakers are highly sought after. In the shop at the station I have a set of Yamaha NS-200Ma monitor speakers in addition to JBL 4412a. The Yamaha drivers mimic the appearance of the JBL drivers, the sound is very similar.
But in the US it is a different story at times. One criticism I ran into was the high cost compared to other speakers. I told people that they will last a life time, I love my 42 year old JBLs:D. One problem is magazines like CU, they put down JBL because of the cost in favor of lower cost speakers that will fall apart in 10 years and get thrown out.:banghead:
When I first started going to stores an listing to speakers AR was one of the hot selling brands where are they today? Go to eBay and search on AR speakers and you will get 50 or so dismal responses.
JBL does have a lot of competition these days, and many of the those speakers sound very good and are priced lower,Hmmm same story all over again.:o: John

[BMWCCA]

Nearly two whole generations have grown up not knowing Germans ever made cameras, too. Now we've got a generation that thinks you can buy a top-quality car from Korea. Granted, they're much better than they used to be, but so are clock radios. Niche markets drive an industry. Design and engineering used on high-line products trickle down. Someone must pay a premium to bring quality to the market so others can reap the benefit.

Remember when the Chevy Caprice was a top seller? Remember when only top-of-the-line BMWs and Mercedes had ABS? BMW had ABS standard across their entire model line by 1987 even in the USA. Traction control was standard on all models in 1997. Twenty-years later the government wants to make stability systems standard.

Most people buy their lumber from Lowe's and wouldn't know a quality piece of board if it jumped up and bit them. Some even think Wal*Mart is the epitome of customer service, or that books can only be bought at Barnes and Noble. We've Wal-marted America. Why should we expect those looking to engineer poor recordings to care about listening to them on quality monitors? If it sounds good cranked in a car, it's good enough for even the artist. Sad. Probably true though.

You can't make quality assessments on market share, but a company has to retain some market share just to stay viable. I'm more worried about that simply because I hate to see once-great American companies disappear because of a fickle (and cheap) public.

But that's why this site is Lansing Heritage rather than Lansing Future, much less present. :(

[louped garouv]

the younger kids i know know about JBL, thay just can not afford the LSR series offerings.... much less large format endeavours...

[hjames]

A Wizard a True Star...I didn't know Todd invented the Mp3

Nah, not MP3s - but he was a very well known advocate of basement recording studios and making albums on computers!
He inspired a "generation" to set up their own gear and pass on expensive formal studios.

Then again, just because you CAN produce an album on your computer in your basement doesn't
mean you have the skills or the ears to do so!

[BMWCCA]

I didn't know Todd invented the Mp3I've heard Donald Buffamanti claim that invention. I didn't believe him, either. He now owns the Internet web site Autospies.com and loves to take pictures of pretty young girls. ;)


the younger kids i know know about JBL, thay just can not afford the LSR series offerings.... much less large format endeavours...I couldn't afford them either when I was a kid. But back then JBL took their monitor technology and aggressively marketed it to the younger generation at somewhat affordable prices. Now they sell . . . what? And do little marketing of any kind. But we've been down this road before. ;)

[hjames]

Dido for Kliphorn.

would you be trying to say "Ditto" ??
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ditto

Ah, another generation who has no connection to the written word ... sigh ...
as bad as the WALLA-voila crowd ... sigh ...
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/voila

just shoot me now!

[jcrobso]

http://mp3licensing.com/mp3/history.html

Just so Al Gore can't claim that he invented the MP3 as well as the internet.;) John

[hjames]

http://mp3licensing.com/mp3/history.html

Just so Al Gore can't claim that he invented the MP3 as well as the internet.;) John

Wow, same old moronic, misquoted talking point, disproved LONG ago,
yet repeated Ad nauseum ... not gonna waltz with you, pilgrim ...

Read - http://www.snopes.com/quotes/internet.asp

Can we drop the misinformed politics and just do the AUDIO thing here ...

[robertbartsch]

...this thread is degenerating into a discussion involving politics which is strickly prohibited.

[SEAWOLF97]

I blame Todd Rundgren for starting folks on this path!!:D

all I know of Todd is sappy songs that I turn off "Hello, It's me" , I mix him up with Chris Montez


http://mp3licensing.com/mp3/history.html

Just so Al Gore can't claim that he invented the MP3 as well as the internet.;) John

He didnt say that ..
"Why should Democrats, looking at the Democratic nomination process, support you instead of Bill Bradley (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Bradley)," Gore responded: I'll be offering my vision when my campaign begins. And it will be comprehensive and sweeping. And I hope that it will be compelling enough to draw people toward it. I feel that it will be. But it will emerge from my dialogue with the American people. I've traveled to every part of this country during the last six years. During my service in the United States Congress, I took the initiative in creating the Internet. I took the initiative in moving forward a whole range of initiatives that have proven to be important to our country's economic growth and environmental protection, improvements in our educational system. [96] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_gore#cite_note-99interview-95)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_gore

and if you read the whole article, "Gore was one of the Atari Democrats (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atari_Democrat) who were given this name due to their "passion for technological issues"

back to subject

STUDIO MONITORS - the name is so widely copied thats its now worthless.

does not being the leader in their early mission affect your home enjoyment ?
My 4410 are brutally honest and clinical real studio monitors , most dont care for them in a home environment.

[Harvey Gerst]

You must realize that with the growth of "home studio recording", the use of smaller, cheaper near field monitors as the only monitoring system was inevitable. The larger studios still use TAD, JBL, Tannoy, and Augspurger systems as mains, but the growth of Alesis, Genelac, KRK, Events, and other small near field speakers as the single monitoring source has been on the increase for at least ten years.

Possibly blame Bob Clearmountain who first said he mixed on Yamaha NS-10's. Also, blame the mp3 as a "viable music delivery system" for a lot of people that aren't concerned with hearing everything.

[robertbartsch]

...So why is it that designers of so-called "near field" speakers decided that they need not be representationally faithful, have dynamic range, and reproduce music from the lowest to the highest frequencies heard by humans?

...Obviuosly these so-called designers compremised, thereby, virtually eliminating excellent sounding large and relatively expensive systems and they replaced them with a bunch of small, cheap and cheap sounding equipment.

Since we had small cheap and cheap sounding equipment in the old days (e.g., Bose, AR, Boston Accustics, etc.) I attribute this change to slick marketing by the near-field guys and poor short sighted management decisions by the Lansing companies.

[robertbartsch]

I went to an Eagles concert for the first time in 12 years last summer at Madison Square Garden NYC.

The sound system was VERY POOR! I'm quite sure the equipment was not JBL. ...not dynamic, not clear, not capable of decent SPLs. Considering the ticket prices, this was a complete display of greed and compremise.

Consequently, I will not be attending concerts in the future.

[hjames]

You must realize that with the growth of "home studio recording", the use of smaller, cheaper near field monitors as the only monitoring system was inevitable. The larger studios still use TAD, JBL, Tannoy, and Augspurger systems as mains, but the growth of Alesis, Genelac, KRK, Events, and other small near field speakers as the single monitoring source has been on the increase for at least ten years.

Possibly blame Bob Clearmountain who first said he mixed on Yamaha NS-10's. Also, blame the mp3 as a "viable music delivery system" for a lot of people that aren't concerned with hearing everything.

Thanks Harvey - I'm with you on that!
I'm convinced that for lots of folks, as long as they can recognize the songs, absolute fidelity isn't needed and is too complicated anyway!
I don't think MP3s are the record company marketing folks' ideas - they wanted to keep selling hunks of plastic in whole album chunks - but the main buyers of music want convenience. and MP3s and AACs etc are sure that!
Pretty obvious the record companies are old school and way behind the curve ...

Put all your fav music on an iPod/Zune/whateveah and take it everywhere!

Heck, in the early 70s the convenient form was 8 tracks, and they sure weren't high fidelity!

[Harvey Gerst]

...So why is it that designers of so-called "near field" speakers decided that they need not be representationally faithful, have dynamic range, and reproduce music from the lowest to the highest frequencies heard by humans?
Mainly because these "near field speakers" will be used in small, untreated "bedroom" environments, by users that have never been exposed to better speakers.

It's also the reason why their mixes seldom translate well to other speaker systems. If their final media delivery will be mp3, it's probably not as critical anyway.

I've just finished designing a near field system that will do all the things you're currently bemoaning. It'll probably be on the market towards the end of this year. It's a whole new way of looking at near field monitor problems, with some very unique solutions.

[Harvey Gerst]

Thanks Harvey - I'm with you on that!
I'm convinced that for lots of folks, as long as they can recognize the songs, absolute fidelity isn't needed and is too complicated anyway!
I don't think MP3s are the record company marketing folks' ideas - they wanted to keep selling hunks of plastic in whole album chunks - but the main buyers of music want convenience. and MP3s and AACs etc are sure that!
Pretty obvious the record companies are old school and way behind the curve ...

Put all your fav music on an iPod/Zune/whateveah and take it everywhere!

Heck, in the early 70s the convenient form was 8 tracks, and they sure weren't high fidelity!
Agreed, 100% Even CD's aren't really the answer. Triangular and square waves become simple sine waves a little above 7 kHz. No harmonic content above that point.

[SEAWOLF97]

I went to an Eagles concert for the first time in 12 years last summer at Madison Square Garden NYC.

The sound system was VERY POOR! I'm quite sure the equipment was not JBL. ...not dynamic, not clear, not capable of decent SPLs. Considering the ticket prices, this was a complete display of greed and compremise.

Consequently, I will not be attending concerts in the future.

We saw CCR (Creedence Clearwater Reconstituted) in January at an Indian Casino in Oregon ...looked like Vertec arrays ...very good sound. Will go again. :applaud:

[robertbartsch]

...just ask the former employees of the Altec Lansing company what it means for your employer to loose the spot as designer and producer of the "standard" for studio monitors.

Yikes! ...the rest they say is history!

[louped garouv]

...just ask the former employees of the Altec Lansing company what it means for your employer to loose the spot as designer and producer of the "standard" for studio monitors.

Yikes! ...the rest they say is history!

is this somewhat of an oversimplification?
or is that in fact how Altec went down the tubes....

[hjames]

is this somewhat of an oversimplification?
or is that in fact how Altec went down the tubes....

Must be the green beer talkin' - oh wait, that was yesterday!

JBL is a hugely diversified company with many "price-point" systems in consumer as well as pro systems. Sounds like over-simplified fear mongering to me.

Wasn't ALTEC mostly Theatre systems and such, how many ALTEC bar and PA systems were there? The system 19s seem real popular.

But hey, what do I know ...

[laurie]

My JBL TLX 14s will be 20 years old next month. I know there is a recodring studio in the North of England, I think Sheffield, which was using the TLX 14s as monitors.

Yamaha are also supposed to make good studio monitors and there are BMW Nautilus range.

Its difficult to know the reputation of current mid priced JBL speakers because I don't see their speakers hardly reviewed in magazines here in England - but the high end range on the JBL website looks absolutely incredible, and I'm sure they also sound incredible - but of course are very expensive.

[Titanium Dome]

It's too easy to make these comments.

There have always been varying levels of commitment to quality, and it's rarely the manufacturer who calls for cheaper, smaller, lower quality, lower profit goods. There are plenty of of SR guys who just want the cheapest stuff they can get by with, so they buy cheap stuff, and quality manufacturers lose the business unless they produce a down market product.

Of course these SR guys want to maximize their profit while undercutting competitors, so cheaper is better as long as it's loud enough. Most of the artists don't care as long as they get their cut of the take, and the house wants it, too.

After all, the suckers will come regardless. Nobody goes to a concert for musical quality; they go for the experience. "Man, it was so f000in' loud!"

In the studio, the fat bastards at the top want increased profit not increased expenses. Engineers want high salary jobs first, before high quality equipment. The kids all listen on crap systems anyway. "This is good enough for radio and Bose. It's done."

If you've ever heard the LSR Series gear, you know how seriously fantastic it is. It makes most other systems sound like the s#!t they are. All that other junk sounds good until you hear something good, just like all that poorly recorded music sounds good until you hear well-recorded music. Then you know it for the excrement it is.

I'm not talking MP3 vs. vinyl vs. CD vs. whatever, as that's all off focus and missing the point. It's BS, yes it is. Scott Fitlin knows. I'm talking the quality of the mix, the quality of the mastering, the quality of the recording.

JBL may not be the monitor of choice, 'tis true, but considering the generally low standards of the music industry, is that a surprise? I went to a local, independent studio where the guys are serious about sound. In one studio, UREI 813s, in the other JBL 4430s, and in the third JBL LSR (w/LSR sub). The LSR was clearly the best.

[MikeBrewster77]

I have a feeling I'm going to "step in it" with this post, and being new here, I'm not sure how that's going to play out, but ... :p

Was there some golden era of audio that I just flat out missed? Granted, I'm relatively young, but I've been at this hobby since I was about 11 years old and have owned equipment dating back to the late 40's through the modern era. And, one thing always seems to remain true - you (generally speaking) get what you pay for. I've heard crappy systems playing sloppily mastered vinyl from the 50's, 60's, and 70's, the combination of which was so god-awful you'd want to break the tonearm off the table so no one else could be tortured. Nonetheless, there seems to be an ongoing nostalgia for eras bygone when it seems to me much hasn’t really changed: The quality of sound reproduced by your system is generally directly proportionate to how much you’re willing to pony up in hard dollars, and most media is mastered for the masses.

Granted, compressed audio sucks, and still it becomes more ubiquitous every day. Yet, I don't recall my peers being enthused by audio when I was coming into the hobby - they were content to play home made mix tapes on a cheap walkman or crank their music through a "ghetto blaster" all while thinking that the sound was great. I was one of a rare few that in my teens actually had true components in my bedroom that I had worked to buy.

I guess I just don't see where we're getting ready to fall off some inevitable audio hell cliff. I think it's always been a niche hobby. Many of the folks I've seen on this board worked in the industry, and probably either got into the industry because of their related interests, or developed the interest because of their chosen industry. I'd bet that the rest of us just were inspired by an audio enthusiast in our life or an incredible system and the rest was history.

So while MP3’s may be climbing as a dominant format, the increase in sales of vinyl YOY between '07 and '08 seems to indicate to me that there's still a healthy interest in the hobby, albeit clearly of many different variations, opinions, and followings. But, I suppose that's probably always been the case, and likely will continue to be.

As for Harmon/JBL's lack of marketing, availability, and my corresponding inability to audition a pair of their @#$%^& speakers without having to get on a plane, I'll never understand that one. :banghead:

Best,
- Mike

[BMWCCA]

The quality of sound reproduced by your system is generally directly proportionate to how much you’re willing to pony up in hard dollars...
Ahh, another one who's never heard a $200 pair of L7s driven by a $100 Crown PS-400 and $150 Soundcraftsmen pre-amp and any CD player. :D


Yeah, I know what you meant—and I pretty much agree with you. That just about ensures that you must be wrong. ;)

[MikeBrewster77]

Oh, I know there are vintage bargains to be had out there. I can't even count the variety of spectacular gear I've snagged for less than $100 per piece over my time in this hobby (and sadly enough, often subsequently jettisoned because I had to move, didn't have enough space, etc.)

But, I think you get where I'm going; talking about the "current state" (i.e., new gear) of the hobby/industry given that's what some folks seem to be lamenting. If I'm wrong, I'll be the first person to admit it :p but I don't think the fact that there's still $40K tonearms floating around for sale (which must mean there's some demand for them, somewhere, right?) indicates a decline in the hobby's high-end.


Ahh, another one who's never heard a $200 pair of L7s driven by a $100 Crown PS-400 and $150 Soundcraftsmen pre-amp and any CD player. :D


Yeah, I know what you meant—and I pretty much agree with you. That just about ensures that you must be wrong. ;)

[Titanium Dome]

Oh, I know there are vintage bargains to be had out there. I can't even count the variety of spectacular gear I've snagged for less than $100 per piece over my time in this hobby (and sadly enough, often subsequently jettisoned because I had to move, didn't have enough space, etc.)

But, I think you get where I'm going; talking about the "current state" (i.e., new gear) of the hobby/industry given that's what some folks seem to be lamenting. If I'm wrong, I'll be the first person to admit it :p but I don't think the fact that there's still $40K tonearms floating around for sale (which must mean there's some demand for them, somewhere, right?) indicates a decline in the hobby's high-end.

If anything, the high end is higher than ever.

[mikebake]

I went to an Eagles concert for the first time in 12 years last summer at Madison Square Garden NYC.

The sound system was VERY POOR! I'm quite sure the equipment was not JBL. ...not dynamic, not clear, not capable of decent SPLs. Considering the ticket prices, this was a complete display of greed and compremise.

Consequently, I will not be attending concerts in the future.
Theirs, or any?
(BTW, you're sounding like an elderly curmudgeon)

[Ducatista47]

And, one thing always seems to remain true - you (generally speaking) get what you pay for. I've heard crappy systems playing sloppily mastered vinyl from the 50's, 60's, and 70's, the combination of which was so god-awful you'd want to break the tonearm off the table so no one else could be tortured. Nonetheless, there seems to be an ongoing nostalgia for eras bygone when it seems to me much hasn’t really changed: The quality of sound reproduced by your system is generally directly proportionate to how much you’re willing to pony up in hard dollars, and most media is mastered for the masses.
In the Fifties some record companies were known for quality and others were famous for lack of it. I recently heard an old Peggy Lee 45 single cleaned up and played on a very nice system. The sound was awesome. The recording and mastering had obviously been top notch. The cheap pressing could not hide it.


I'd bet that the rest of us just were inspired by an audio enthusiast in our life or an incredible system and the rest was history.
Yes, my Father who worked for Shure Bros and played music on a home system he built. Again, the Fifties.


As for Harmon/JBL's lack of marketing, availability, and my corresponding inability to audition a pair of their @#$%^& speakers without having to get on a plane, I'll never understand that one. :banghead:Me neither. I am thinking an unfortunate (not very bright) solution to react to changes in the buyers' lifestyles, fed by input from accountants instead of creative people.


If anything, the high end is higher than ever.
Sounding great sometimes, but I do not recall an era where some gear was as overpriced as it is now, or as cosmetic.

Clark

[MikeBrewster77]

I haven't mastered the multi-quote function here yet, so this is the best I can come up with... :o: Great insight Clark - thank you for sharing!


In the Fifties some record companies were known for quality and others were famous for lack of it. I recently heard an old Peggy Lee 45 single cleaned up and played on a very nice system. The sound was awesome. The recording and mastering had obviously been top notch. The cheap pressing could not hide it.

I remember Decca, London, etc., being very good labels in terms of overall quality. I also think that's still the case today, only not so much by company as by genre; jazz, blues, classical, bluegrass, etc., to me seem - generally speaking - far better mastered and produced than pop, rock, dance, etc., invariably because the labels still work under the assumption that the target audience for certain genres tend to be a more affluent consumer demographic who are likely to appreciate the sonic characteristics better. Of course, that may not necessarily be the case, but it's a marketing formula, I'm sure.
Yes, my Father who worked for Shure Bros and played music on a home system he built. Again, the Fifties.

And likewise my parents were the catalyst for me as well. They didn't work in the industry, but both had a passion for audio, and we had best in class in terms of "what-we-could-afford" audio equipment when I was growing up.
Me neither. I am thinking an unfortunate (not very bright) solution to react to changes in the buyers' lifestyles, fed by input from accountants instead of creative people.

Completely agreed, though I think in the long term the strategy will inevitably and unfortunately backfire - it's the functional equivalent of bean counters missing the forest for the trees. :(
Sounding great sometimes, but I do not recall an era where some gear was as overpriced as it is now, or as cosmetic.

Again, completely agreed - I've actually run vintage MSRP's through an inflation calculator, and have been startled by the results when compared to equiavalent new gear's prices in today's market.
Mike

[jcrobso]

My dad had frequency response record that went from 50hz to 12khz. He used it to help evaluate systems. The one he bought had a 15" field coil woofer and coaxial mounted 5" closed back tweeter. 35 watts out of a pair of 6L6GC the did sound nice. The LP record had just been introduced, so I guess that I grew up with Hi-Fi. I upgraded the turntable in 1959 with a Garrard turn table and a Empire stereo cartridge. My Grandfather had died and my grandmother moved in with us we brought her HH Scott console and it became the left channel for our stereo system. It was at this time that I started getting interested in component audio. I heard my first JBL speakers in 1960~61 and have been a fan ever since.:) John

[jblsound]

If anything, the high end is higher than ever.
That's easy enough to show in hard $s.
In the late '70s the L212 was JBL's top consumer system @ $2K

During the next decade JBL's top system the L250/250Ti @ $4K/pr

Now top JBLs of this century have been the K2, Everest @ $30K/pr, $44K/pr, $60K/pr

[BMWCCA]

That's easy enough to show in hard $s.
In the late '70s the L212 was JBL's top consumer system @ $2K

During the next decade JBL's top system the L250/250Ti @ $4K/pr

Now top JBLs of this century have been the K2, Everest @ $30K/pr, $44K/pr, $60K/prActually, the L212 was $2,000 each side in 1979. An S8R was $936/side back in 1970. How much was a Paragon in its final year? The Library shows $10,000 in 1986 (versus $2,500 in 1970 and '71). That's a more reasonable comparison to the modern "project" statement systems from JBL today.

I started college in 1971 and tuition (only) was $3,300/year. In 2004 my oldest child started college at the same school. Tuition (only) then was $33,000/year and it's climbed at a rate of from 7-to-10% every year since. That would make a Paragon $45,000 or more today. Twinkies were 12¢ when I was a kid; $1.25 or so now. Tootsie-Roll pops were always 2¢ when I was growing up, and today they're about a quarter.

Move the decimal on that Everest and I'll take two, too. ;)

[RKLee]

BMWCCA: What was the minimum wage at the time, I believe it was something like $1.50-1.75/hour. $3,000 to me back then was a princely sum of money. I worked my way through college, and I lived at home with my folks.

[BMWCCA]

BMWCCA: What was the minimum wage at the time, I believe it was something like $1.50-1.75/hour. $3,000 to me back then was a princely sum of money. I worked my way through college, and I lived at home with my folks.Not sure how it's relevant but I worked my way though college, too. My dad was a victim of the mid-'70s recession that took down a lot of small businesses. I lived at home my first two years of college. I transferred to another school and worked during school and over the summer, eventually receiving in-state-tuition status at that school so my tuition bill went down to something like $1200 for my final year (architecture school).

The only time I worked at minimum wage was when I was 15, at a farm/nursery and my recollection is the agricultural minimum was around $3 then, around 1968. After that I had warehouse jobs or double-carried 36-holes a day as a caddy on the hilliest course in St. Louis County for about $8 a bag plus tips, best I can recall. I'm sure you can look up the history of the minimum wage but today it only exists for McDonalds employees and has been kept low on purpose to supply cheap labor for the large businesses who employ unskilled workers, mostly supported by one political party more so than the other. ;)

From what I can see around here, starting wages at restaurants and such is about $8.25. Far from the ten-fold increase in the cost of everything when I was a kid. Unless miniumum wage was under a buck back then, and I doubt it.

[MikeBrewster77]

Here's a fun link everyone might find relevant for a more "apples to apples" comparison of prices from eras bygone vs. today.

Using some of the numbers provided here for example's sake, a Paragon that cost $10,000 in 1986 would cost $19,361 today in constant currency. Likewise, a pair of L212's would go for approx. $11,692. Pricey models for sure, but still a bit lower than the Everest line up.

Then again, your Twinkie should still cost under a dollar, so it seems that JBL speakers aren't the only product eclipsing the CPI in terms of MSRP over the long-haul ... fargin' bastiges!!! :p

Have a great weekend,
- Mike


Not sure how it's relevant but I worked my way though college, too. My dad was a victim of the mid-'70s recession that took down a lot of small businesses. I lived at home my first two years of college. I transferred to another school and worked during school and over the summer, eventually receiving in-state-tuition status at that school so my tuition bill went down to something like $1200 for my final year (architecture school).

The only time I worked at minimum wage was when I was 15, at a farm/nursery and my recollection is the agricultural minimum was around $3 then, around 1968. After that I had warehouse jobs or double-carried 36-holes a day as a caddy on the hilliest course in St. Louis County for about $8 a bag plus tips, best I can recall. I'm sure you can look up the history of the minimum wage but today it only exists for McDonalds employees and has been kept low on purpose to supply cheap labor for the large businesses who employ unskilled workers, mostly supported by one political party more so than the other. ;)

From what I can see around here, starting wages at restaurants and such is about $8.25. Far from the ten-fold increase in the cost of everything when I was a kid. Unless miniumum wage was under a buck back then, and I doubt it.

[wu6fiend]

I have always been a JBL fan. My first pair was a set of L60Ts that I bought brand new (as a university student, the $800 was a lot of money back in 1988!). Since then, I've probably owned 10-12 pairs, not including subs and center channels. My latest set is most of the entire Studio L-Series (L890, L820, L830, LC2, L8400P). Therein lies a story: it was virtually impossible to buy these locally. I don't exactly live in the boondocks. But try and find a JBL retailer. Emails to JBL, calls to JBL, eventually produced a contact number for a sales rep. He directs me to a tiny little local store that I've never heard of. The store is the size of my living room. His prices are ridiculous, and I can't even listen to most of the speakers, he doesn't stock them. Yes, he can bring them in, but I'd have to buy them first. He's not really interested anyway, keeps suggesting other brands instead. So, I bought them off the Internet, and had them shipped to my house. Never seen them, or heard them. Am I happy? I am delighted with them. But it sure took a lot of work to get them. No wonder JBL has virtually no presence in the consumer market in North America. Sad.

[robertbartsch]

Unfortunately, JBL/Harmon is headed for the dumper. It will become the Altec Lansing of the 90s.

They did a lot of inovative things in the 70s and it carried them through for several decades but the end is near.

[Titanium Dome]

Unfortunately, JBL/Harmon is headed for the dumper. It will become the Altec Lansing of the 90s.

They did a lot of inovative things in the 70s and it carried them through for several decades but the end is near.

I love to be contrary, so I will be. There has been more innovation at JBL/Harman in the past decade than in any previous ten year period anyone on this forum can name. Go ahead, anyone, I dare you.:coolness:

[hjames]

Unfortunately, JBL/Harmon is headed for the dumper. It will become the Altec Lansing of the 90s.

They did a lot of inovative things in the 70s and it carried them through for several decades but the end is near.

Based on your negative hot air ??? ---- psst, hardly!

By the way, thats Harman Kardon - Harmon is an actor (Mark or Angie) ...

http://www.harmankardon.com/

It shows a good eye and an attention to detail to at least get the name right ...

[wu6fiend]

The bottom line for me is that JBL makes top notch stuff (with the exception of the Best Buy bottom end garbage). Where they are falling down is in terms of their marketing, and in terms of their accessability. How do you expect consumers to buy your product if you make it just about impossible to obtain? They have to make their goods available, and widely so. Or, consumers will choose what is available to them (eg. Klipsch, Polk, Boston etc.) and never know what they are missing.

The other issue that concerns me is JBL's effective abandonment of the lions share of the market by seeming to decide to go after the ultra-high end market (eg. the Synthesis stuff). Apart from the very select few, who among us can really afford the K2 or Everest lines? I know I can't, and I am solidly middle class income wise. It is really hard to justify spending such ridiculous sums on a sound system.

When I read the difficulties that Titanium Dome had in obtaining the Performance Series, namely being rejected by stores that "wouldn't want to bother with less than a $10,000 order", I was incredulous. If this is the future, then I fear for JBL's long term viability.

[CONVERGENCE]

1 JBL home HI end and PRO have always bean sold by contractors.

2 I've seen McIntosh sold by HI end Furniture store.A hi end dining room Will cost you 100K$ so you might have to borrow against your mortgage.

3 The near field monitors are used extensively in broadcast trucks.

4 Most major recording studio's use both large and small monitors.


.........................

[MikeBrewster77]

So......... does all of this mean that the sky is not falling? I'd just like to be prepared either way. :p

Best,
- Mike

[mikebake]

Unfortunately, JBL/Harmon is headed for the dumper. It will become the Altec Lansing of the 90s.

They did a lot of inovative things in the 70s and it carried them through for several decades but the end is near.
Yeah, and the damn music is too loud!!

[jblsound]

Actually, the L212 was $2,000 each side in 1979. ;)
Actually the L212 was never priced as single units, And the price was $2k for the 3 pieces. And as I was buying the store's floor model they cut the price by 25% to $1500. That was January '79.
The 250Ti was priced @ $2k per side in the '80s

[BMWCCA]

Actually the L212 was never priced as single units, And the price was $2k for the 3 pieces. And as I was buying the store's floor model they cut the price by 25% to $1500. That was January '79.
The 250Ti was priced @ $2k per side in the '80s
Interesting. The price list in the Library shows the price for each and has a separate listing for the sub. :dont-know

[jblsound]

Interesting. The price list in the Library shows the price for each and has a separate listing for the sub. :dont-know

I've seen a number of different list prices for the L212 system, depending on the year, with the high of about $2200. But all the ones I saw was for the total system.

[SEAWOLF97]

Actually, the L212 was $2,000 each side in 1979.

blue book shows L-212 3pc w/powered sub list price = $2200 ..1977-81

[4313B]

Interesting. The price list in the Library shows the price for each and has a separate listing for the sub. :dont-knowWe've gone over that before and it was never fixed. The L212 was known as a three piece system. The price listed in that document is for the three piece system. We've also discussed how the B212 was made available separately so people could use it with JBL bookshelf systems or run multiples.

[BMWCCA]

We've gone over that before and it was never fixed.I must have slept through that class, sir. Wouldn't be the first time. I swear it must have been mono!


You don't mean to tell me everything I learn from this site can't be considered gospel. ;) I'm shocked, shocked I tell you!

[Titanium Dome]

We're veering off thread, as we inevitably do. I have one on thread thought and one off thread thought.

1) Recently I was in a couple of high profile locations: CBS Studio City and ClearChannel Broadcasting. Every broadcast booth, every control booth, every office, every production facility, and every public area was literally festooned with JBLs. We're not just talking about a few; we're talking hundreds and hundreds of JBL monitors. (Maybe thousands and thousands)

While big, professional recording studios with half a dozen control rooms and studios might be moving to other brands, it seems each time I go to major media outlets, it's JBL. Last fall I was at ABC Radio: all JBL.

As I wrote earlier, small, independent, local studios I visit are pretty much all JBL.

2) We talk about JBL/Harman's position in the market place and its marketing and availability shortcomings, but we've never really tried to find out what's going on. Is there a plan we don't know about? Is harmanaudio.com selling a lot more gear than we imagine? Are the Harman Store on ebay and other online retailers moving enough stock that retail presence is becoming less important?

I'm not in a position to follow through on this now, but if we want to know the answers to some of these things, I guess we should ask instead of speculate. At some point, I hope to get the opportunity to do so.

[timc]

TiDome. I have a few questions.

1. I'm glad to hear that many use JBL monitors. Wich models do you usually see when you visit studio/broadcasters? LSR's? 43xx/44xx?


2. I can't speak for the world, but here in Norway JBL is very well presented throught the second largest Hifi-store chain in the country. The largest shop in Oslo also have the K2, Array and Everest for demo. Thats not bad for a small country like ours. The flipside is that because they are a chain, they don't do anything to optimize the setups. They run with whatever they have in their lineup at the time.


-Tim

[Titanium Dome]

TiDome. I have a few questions.

1. I'm glad to hear that many use JBL monitors. Wich models do you usually see when you visit studio/broadcasters? LSR's? 43xx/44xx?


2. I can't speak for the world, but here in Norway JBL is very well presented throught the second largest Hifi-store chain in the country. The largest shop in Oslo also have the K2, Array and Everest for demo. Thats not bad for a small country like ours. The flipside is that because they are a chain, they don't do anything to optimize the setups. They run with whatever they have in their lineup at the time.


-Tim

In the public areas it's usually Control 5s, in the control booths LSR2300 Series, in the production areas LSR 4300 Series and, rarely, LSR 6300 in the exec and celebrity areas. At ClearChannel, there were 44xx monitors on the walls in the talent (DJ) studios.

[Akira]

Engineers want high salary jobs first, before high quality equipment. The kids all listen on crap systems anyway. "This is good enough for radio and Bose.

If you've ever heard the LSR Series gear, you know how seriously fantastic it is. It makes most other systems sound like the s#!t they are. All that other junk sounds good until you hear something good, just like all that poorly recorded music sounds good until you hear well-recorded music. Then you know it for the excrement it is.

I went to a local, independent studio where the guys are serious about sound. In one studio, UREI 813s, in the other JBL 4430s, and in the third JBL LSR (w/LSR sub). The LSR was clearly the best.

I think everyone is missing the point of my original post. That JBL is "no longer the monitor of choice" is not a result of the ignorance of the ill informed. The reason I wrote this post is because of a survey of the "best 2 way near fields" posted on Gearslutz.com. Gearslutz is the absolute highest end of the worlds engineering community. While they have a bottom feeder section, the top guys own multimillion dollar studios and remote rigs. Every few months they have blogs conducted by the elite of the industry's engineers who are also part of the Gearslutz community...I am talking about the giants of the past 40 years. ANYWAY, of all of the many, many fine systems nominated for best monitors...I WAS THE ONLY ONE WHO VOTED FOR JBL/LSR!

We are all biased toward JBL, me as much as anyone. But, I think we are doing a collective 'head in the sand' routine here. The LSR series may be one fine instrument but, nobody seems to know it and I'm not talking about a few uneducated kids. I talking about the people who count and make a living at it.

[Akira]

Therein lies a story: it was virtually impossible to buy these locally. I don't exactly live in the boondocks. But try and find a JBL retailer. Emails to JBL, calls to JBL, eventually produced a contact number for a sales rep. He directs me to a tiny little local store that I've never heard of. The store is the size of my living room. His prices are ridiculous, and I can't even listen to most of the speakers, he doesn't stock them. Yes, he can bring them in, but I'd have to buy them first. He's not really interested anyway, keeps suggesting other brands instead. So, I bought them off the Internet, and had them shipped to my house. Never seen them, or heard them. Am I happy? I am delighted with them. But it sure took a lot of work to get them. No wonder JBL has virtually no presence in the consumer market in North America. Sad.
It's a vicious cycle. Bad retailing results in fewer sales, results in less exposure, results in lack of recognition, results in worse retailing.

[robertbartsch]

Akira:

OK - I'll Bite. I read your post that contained information on the studio monitor pole from industry types and that you were the only industry type person to vote "JBL."

So, if JBL is no longer the preferred studio monitor; who manufactures the preferred studio monitor according to the industry guys?

I assume "near field" monitor means a small system that is NOT designed to reproduce the full spectrum of audio signals; right? Why do we have near field monitors now; I assume it is a compremise resulting from multi-channel rigs and small studio rooms?

[Akira]

I am looking for the poll right now, there are several of them because every section of Gearslutz look for different things in a monitor.

NOW HEAR THIS: SMALL FORMAT MONITORS DO NOT EQUATE CRAP

***In a multimillion dollar music installation, many engineers still today want to hear band limited crap and thus would pay big $$dineros to buy a pair of brand new NS10's. The reason is they have a pair of Westlakes and need to audition the opposite end of the spectrum.

***A remote truck on the other hand needs the best dam small format monitor that can take extreme SPL and deliver quality sound in a compromised monitoring environment. In a truck the small format monitor is your one and only life line and my vote goes to the LSR 6328...but, like I said I seem to be alone here.

***A film mixing stage requires both a large format monitor that can penetrate a screen and a quality small format monitor that will simulate a much closer listening distance. JBL wins on the large systems because they match up with existing theater installations. But, for near field Genelec is the undisputed king...there are also alot of large formate Genelec systems becomimg more and more common place.

***hip hop guys have different criteria. I don't know enough about the music to comment.

***again mastering guys are different.

For the record, small format 2 ways are generally more accurate for many, many reasons...but that is another thread. Large monitors have only two functions. A) to hear the slightest perceptible change under the extreme tracking conditions when acquiring sounds off the floor (on the way up) and (B) to impress the sh__ out of the client. Even in the glory days of the recording industry, all of those classic records you love were mixed (on the way down) on small monitors....4310's.

[MikeBrewster77]

Thanks for the insight into the origin of your post, Akira. What is the specific title of the thread on the board you're referencing? The only similar threads I could find there are BEST Near Field Monitors SURVEY (http://www.gearslutz.com/board/high-end/70509-best-near-field-monitors-survey.html?highlight=jbl) (which is almost two years old) and What's the best near field for under $1000? (http://www.gearslutz.com/board/low-end-theory/177750-whats-best-near-field-under-1000-a.html?highlight=best+near+field) (which hardly seems like a question that would be asked on a board catering primarily to the absolute highest end of the engineering community.)

If it's the two year old post you're referencing, there were only about 80 responses, which is hardly enough to qualify as a true representation of what's going on in the market. Additionally, I'm not sure based upon what I see on the threads thus far that I actually believe that the site's demographic is as high end as you might think. In fact, there's a separate entry for high-end gear, which makes me think the site overall is more "middle of the road" (especially given the corresponding low-end gear section.)

In short, an unscientific sample based on voluntary responses within a small percentage of the overall population on an internet forum with an unknown participatory demographic is not compelling enough (for me, anyway) to sound the death note for JBL's presence in the professional realm.

Best,
- Mike



I think everyone is missing the point of my original post. That JBL is "no longer the monitor of choice" is not a result of the ignorance of the ill informed. The reason I wrote this post is because of a survey of the "best 2 way near fields" posted on Gearslutz.com. Gearslutz is the absolute highest end of the worlds engineering community. While they have a bottom feeder section, the top guys own multimillion dollar studios and remote rigs. Every few months they have blogs conducted by the elite of the industry's engineers who are also part of the Gearslutz community...I am talking about the giants of the past 40 years. ANYWAY, of all of the many, many fine systems nominated for best monitors...I WAS THE ONLY ONE WHO VOTED FOR JBL/LSR!

We are all biased toward JBL, me as much as anyone. But, I think we are doing a collective 'head in the sand' routine here. The LSR series may be one fine instrument but, nobody seems to know it and I'm not talking about a few uneducated kids. I talking about the people who count and make a living at it.

[jcrobso]

http://www.sweetwater.com/

you may have to click the reload button.

[4313B]

The LSR series may be one fine instrument but, nobody seems to know it and I'm not talking about a few uneducated kids. I talking about the people who count and make a living at it.Evidently they aren't as clever as you think they are... if they really counted and made a living at it then they'd always be up on current events. Perhaps we need to start a certification process for these folks too... :hmm:

[Akira]

Evidently they aren't as clever as you think they are... if they really counted and made a living at it then they'd always be up on current events. Perhaps we need to start a certification process for these folks too... :hmm:
With all due respect, that is a condescending remark based on your own lack of knowledge. I would be equally offended if someone from the Gearslutz community dismissed the Lansing community as a bunch of amateur home hobbiests. Like any forum there are bottom feeders and pretenders, but I have found that in all serious forums regardless of subject matter there is a wealth of knowledge hidden in there if you take the time to learn without passing fleet judgement.

Every different mixing application has their own criteria for what makes a good monitor.
This is from the remote section and like anything else it's just peoples opinions. Like me when I say I like L100's...a lot of people think they sound terrible. There's a good argument to support that, but I still like them.
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/remote-possibilities-acoustic-music-location-recording/202441-monitor-speakers-location-recording-vehicles.html

One last thing: Whether you do make a living mixing sound, it does not mean you have a monopoly on music appreciation or a higher knowledge of speakers and acoustics. But, it does mean you have experienced a degree of critical listening from a perspective few here have ever experienced. It does mean that you understand basic principles of masking, layering and anomalies which are created by the mix process. It's just a different listening experience from a very different point of view, not better or worse. What are you going to learn if everyone agrees with your singular point of view?

One last, last thing. Personally, I started this post because I am disappointed that JBL does not seem to be on the radar in the small format monitor category and yes the Gearslutz community is an excellent, educated barometer of what people are using at all levels of the creation process.

[4313B]

... and yes the Gearslutz community is an excellent, educated barometer of what people are using at all levels of the creation process.Dude... they're slutz... get over it...

:rotfl:

[MikeBrewster77]

I went through the link you posted, Akira, and am even more confused as to why you surmised that JBL is no longer the studio monitor of choice.

The post you're referencing is for mobile control monitors to be set up in a truck; that scenario is hardly representative of the entire market, and certainly not enough to make such a broad statement regarding JBL's overall position in the studio monitor space. Additionally, you weren't the only individual who suggested JBL speakers for the application unless you're posting under two different screen names:

Another speaker (I'm not sure if it has been mentioned here before) that I would also try to take a look at is the JBL 6300 series. Those who I know of that have come into contact with them have been very complimentary, I've not heard them myself, but they have possibly some of the best specs I've ever seen on a speaker system.
- Roland

Out of the 72 posts in the thread, less than 20 actually contained real suggestions for different models, so again, I just don't accept that the opinions contained there are representative of the entire target demographic for JBL studio monitors.

It seems to me that you made a very overarching, conclusive statement that "JBL [is] no longer [the] studio monitor of choice" and have attempted to substantiate that claim using a few posts on an internet forum. I'll reiterate my earlier statement that I don't think the statement is warranted based upon a limited data set within a very small sample of the overall population. That's not meant to be an insult to the "slutz," simply an observation based on generally accepted principles for determining market share.

Best,
- Mike




One last, last thing. Personally, I started this post because I am disappointed that JBL does not seem to be on the radar in the small format monitor category and yes the Gearslutz community is an excellent, educated barometer of what people are using at all levels of the creation process.

[robertbartsch]

Akira:

Are you a troll?

I don't understand your post. Apparently, you spend a ton of narratives but say little.

1. Who manufactures the best "near field" monitor according to industry folks in your so-called professsional survey?

2. Why should we care about "near field" monitors if they are not designed to reproduce the full spectrum of frequency heard by humans?

[timc]

based on your own lack of knowledge.


Now you are far out Akira. If there is anyone with actual knowledge on this forum 4313B is the man.

Many other also of course (don't want to offend anyone).



-Tim

[Fred Sanford]

That particular poll was also specific to active near-fields.

Just as an FYI, the one crew I've worked with the most & had the most input into spec'ing speakers (www.qprime.com (http://www.qprime.com)) has an almost-equal mix of Genelec (for their active monitors- mostly 1032As & similar if I remember correctly) and JBLs (for their passives- 4412As, 240Tis & others) for playback, with some Sonus Faber & Monitor Audio mixed in at home.

Granted, these folks are not engineers, they're managers; but they had suggestions/input from the producers & engineers that they work closely with.

je

[4313B]

Akira:

Are you a troll?I used this statement - "I started this post because I am disappointed that JBL does not seem to be on the radar in the small format monitor category" - to sum up the point of the entire thread.

And I was making fun of the name Gearslutz. I think it's funny.

I figure if Harman cared about any of this they would probably do something about it. I can't envision them sitting around and wringing their hands over it. Evidently it isn't a problem.

[Fred Sanford]

We're veering off thread, as we inevitably do. I have one on thread thought and one off thread thought.

1) Recently I was in a couple of high profile locations: CBS Studio City and ClearChannel Broadcasting. Every broadcast booth, every control booth, every office, every production facility, and every public area was literally festooned with JBLs. We're not just talking about a few; we're talking hundreds and hundreds of JBL monitors. (Maybe thousands and thousands)

While big, professional recording studios with half a dozen control rooms and studios might be moving to other brands, it seems each time I go to major media outlets, it's JBL. Last fall I was at ABC Radio: all JBL.

As I wrote earlier, small, independent, local studios I visit are pretty much all JBL.



In the public areas it's usually Control 5s, in the control booths LSR2300 Series, in the production areas LSR 4300 Series and, rarely, LSR 6300 in the exec and celebrity areas. At ClearChannel, there were 44xx monitors on the walls in the talent (DJ) studios.

This pretty much follows with my experiences in the NYC area, too, with some Genelecs and others thrown into the mix. Unfortunately at this point I've only heard the Controls in action myself, and not the LSRs.

je

je

[timc]

I used to own LSR 4328 adn 4312P. For their price i think they are awesome.

Today i use Klipsch RF-62 and they are nowhere near. Powered by Parasound.

The two setups have about the same pricetag. I'm actually in a process to try and buy back the LSR's :)



-Tim

[Mr. Widget]

I would be equally offended if someone from the Gearslutz community dismissed the Lansing community as a bunch of amateur home hobbiests. Isn't that what most of us are? :D



Like me when I say I like L100's...a lot of people think they sound terrible. There's a good argument to support that, but I still like them.I think they sound pretty rough... but I still like them too. I have a warm place in my heart for them and I don't expect them to do what I know they can not.


I started this post because I am disappointed that JBL does not seem to be on the radar in the small format monitor category and yes the Gearslutz community is an excellent, educated barometer of what people are using at all levels of the creation process.I don't know what an accurate barometer of JBL's acceptance in the field would be. I do know that JBL is well represented at Guitar Center, that annoying but necessary deep discount musical instrument and pro audio chain... and a few months ago at the AES that was here in SF, JBL was performing multi-channel demos of several monitors and the professional mixers and engineers seemed pretty impressed... Harman also had a semi trailer in the main hall that was decked out as a two room mobile studio... JBLs were everywhere in it along with Soundcraft, Studer, BSS etc...


Widget

[jcrobso]

In the Pro PA sound room at Sam Ash the have a lot of JBL PA speakers.:)
But in the studio room they have others set up.:( John

[Akira]

Well tell me. Is JBL one of the dominant names in the near field market? How about the home market?
My impression in both cases is neither.

They are contenders in the sound reinforcement market, which is crowded with several good manufacturer's.
They certainly dominate the theater market and thus I see many JBL systems in full scale post houses.
They also have a pretty intense high end home theater department but, I ain't rich enough to comment on that one.

So bottom line. Does JBL have a marketing problem, because I really believe their product can stand up to the best, but from my neck of the woods I just don't see them on the radar in certain markets. The pro audio stores in Canada have walls of near fields set up side by side for comparison and not a single JBL...next time I'm there I'm going to have to ask them why not.

p.s. I made it clear that the GS community is widely diverse and every mixing application is looking for certain qualities in a small near field to fit their unique criteria. Like I said the high end players are willing to over pay for crappy NS10's. But, the one thing they all have in common (multiple polls) is a lack of JBL.
p.p.s. Who ever said it was my poll?

[Akira]

a few months ago at the AES that was here in SF, JBL was performing multi-channel demos of several monitors and the professional mixers and engineers seemed pretty impressed... Harman also had a semi trailer in the main hall that was decked out as a two room mobile studio... JBLs were everywhere in it along with Soundcraft, Studer, BSS etc...


Widget
Oh the luxury of living on the west coast. Not only do we freeze our asses off in the Great White North...they deprive of of our JBL's:(

[robertbartsch]

Well your right, I suppose.

In the 1970s and 80s, JBL used to DOMINATE in all markets. However, now it is different. Their presence in home theater is minimal at best; in large scale sound reproduction they are the best but others are making significant headway. In theaters they still own the market, I presume.

Everyone has their own views on their troubles but I would characterize the issue as one of people not caring much about the quality of sound (music) reproduction.

Why use a heavy big complicated piece of sound equipment when a cheesie small unit is availible and cheap?

Yeh, their stuff is technically superior to about 98% of everything out there but, again, unfortunately, not many people care much.

[JBLRaiser]

Well tell me. Is JBL one of the dominant names in the near field market? How about the home market?
My impression in both cases is neither.

They are contenders in the sound reinforcement market, which is crowded with several good manufacturer's.
They certainly dominate the theater market and thus I see many JBL systems in full scale post houses.
They also have a pretty intense high end home theater department but, I ain't rich enough to comment on that one.

So bottom line. Does JBL have a marketing problem, because I really believe their product can stand up to the best, but from my neck of the woods I just don't see them on the radar in certain markets. The pro audio stores in Canada have walls of near fields set up side by side for comparison and not a single JBL...next time I'm there I'm going to have to ask them why not.

p.s. I made it clear that the GS community is widely diverse and every mixing application is looking for certain qualities in a small near field to fit their unique criteria. Like I said the high end players are willing to over pay for crappy NS10's. But, the one thing they all have in common (multiple polls) is a lack of JBL.
p.p.s. Who ever said it was my poll?

the fact Canada has so many speaker manufacturers and is government supported has anything to do with it.http://www.canadianmade.com/speakers.html

[Chas]

the fact Canada has so many speaker manufacturers and is government supported has anything to do with it.http://www.canadianmade.com/speakers.html

Government supported? Huh? Maybe you need to have a peek at corporate (and for that matter personal) tax rates in Canada and compare them to the U.S.

[John]

the fact Canada has so many speaker manufacturers and is government supported has anything to do with it.http://www.canadianmade.com/speakers.html


How is it you always see everything in the same light??? :o:

[JBL 4645]

New JBL LSR arrivals for 2009 the 2300 series looks posh. too bad I’m poor person :( and can only afford JBL control 5 and 1 and one JBL diy 4645.:D

http://www2.jblpro.com/BackOffice/FamilyMedia/70b27911-0b80-49cd-8ce2-4845c02b5134.jpg
JBL 2300 series
http://www2.jblpro.com/catalog/general/ProductFamily.aspx?FId=73&MId=5 (http://www2.jblpro.com/catalog/general/ProductFamily.aspx?FId=73&MId=5)

Google product search only has two possible low prices thou I would pass on the £81,339 :wtf: I don't have £81 grand what noody cloud are they living on for pete sakes?
http://www.google.co.uk/products?q=JBL+LSR2328P+&hl=en (http://www.google.co.uk/products?q=JBL+LSR2328P+&hl=en)

[JBLRaiser]

How is it you always see everything in the same light??? :o:

http://www.psbspeakers.com/audio-topics/Paul-Barton-at-the-NRC

http://www.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/main_e.html

Nothing derogatory meant.

[timc]

New JBL LSR arrivals for 2009 the 2300 series looks posh. too bad I’m poor person :( and can only afford JBL control 5 and 1 and one JBL diy 4645.:D


JBL 2300 series
http://www2.jblpro.com/catalog/general/ProductFamily.aspx?FId=73&MId=5 (http://www2.jblpro.com/catalog/general/ProductFamily.aspx?FId=73&MId=5)

Google product search only has two possible low prices thou I would pass on the £81,339 :wtf: I don't have £81 grand what noody cloud are they living on for pete sakes?
http://www.google.co.uk/products?q=JBL+LSR2328P+&hl=en (http://www.google.co.uk/products?q=JBL+LSR2328P+&hl=en)


The LSR 2300 series isnt that expensive. The 2325 kosts about £250 each here in Norway.


-Tim

[LE15-Thumper]

Let's check our ego's at the door and stay on topic.

[Doctor_Electron]

Quote: "Just so Al Gore can't claim that he invented the MP3 as well as the internet." ;) John

But perhaps he will broker... Tin Ear Credits?

OK, I apologize for staying off topic. Honestly!

[JBL 4645]

The LSR 2300 series isnt that expensive. The 2325 kosts about £250 each here in Norway.


-Tim

So some idiot must have priced it wrong then?

£250.00 sounds about right. :bouncy:

[timc]

So some idiot must have priced it wrong then?

£250.00 sounds about right. :bouncy:


Seems so. I would guess it is cheaper in the UK because you have a bit lower VAT.

I don't think £500 a pair is bad at all :)


-Tim

[bone215]

My recent experiences with JBL have been with a purchase of S38's used, a modest three way bookshelf speaker. I liked them quite a bit. I sold them to a musician and recently listened to them in his home and they still sound quite good.
JBL's S120PII ported subs. I liked them as well.
4408A studio monitors. I sold them and the subs to a musician who uses them as mixers when he records his band. I liked the 4408A's as well.
I presently use 4412A's along with a sub for my basement sound system and they continue to delight and surprise me, they are quite good when used with good source material. I can pick out mixes and CD's with too much reverb, lousy recordings of snare drums etc. Earlier today I was listened to a nicely recorded Maynard Ferguson CD and well, it was all there nice and clean. I don't know anything about how music is recorded and mixed and all that. What I do know is with the 4412A's I can 'hear into' how the source materials were recorded, by that I mean, when the source was done well I can hear all the instruments and the instruments sound like what I 'think' the instuments are supposed to sound like. Pianos sound like pianos, saxaphones sound like saxaphones, trumpets, drums etc. When I listen to some of the Rippington stuff, well some of it is right and some of it isn't. I have heard the term 'revealing' and that seems about right.
The Polks I use in the living room and the NHT bookshelves I use in the rec room theatre system seem to be more 'forgiving' and not quite as 'revealing' of the mix-close, but not quite as accurate.
I guess it just all depends. I do know that if I had lots of bucks and needed to buy speakers, certainly I would seek out some of the higher priced JBL offerings.
I like this forum and all the info presented, and, yes, the market place is changing. Then again, everything changes any way so . . .