Anything new on 2435HPL horn compatability/implementation?

[jlharden]

Having read the exhaustive amount of info in the archives, I decided I'd like to one day play with these "rarities". I've just recently made that ownership plunge and am interested in any new developments or field experience from users who may not have updated information recently. It looks like the H9800 would be the natural selection to complement the drivers, but unavailable. I still haven't seen a source for a good copy. The 2352 appears good and I may try to source a pair. I've also seen reference to some DDS 1.5" exit drivers. It seems that a 2" horn with a adaptor may also broaden the choices. So......a few viable options, but not much consensus. For reference, I'm looking to match a 2226H woofer in a corner cabinet design. A 2-way is the target, but I do have a mint pair of 077's on stand-by if necessary. System will be bi-amped with active crossovers. I will continue to digest the large amount of information available and would love to hear anything extra from those who've went down this path. Cabinets are nearly complete and I will post some pics and my own experience as it becomes relevant. Thanks!

Jerrod

[Earl K]

Hi Jerrod,

- There are several options .
- One approach that I would recommend for those who can't design an EQ circuit is to use a horn type that EQs ( lifts ) the HF automatically .
- This ( HF lift ) is accomplished by using a horn with a higher "Q" factor ( ie; narrower dispersion characteristics ) .

Anyways;
- The best looking curve ( unequalized ) that I've seen for the 2435hpl is when it was mounted to Widgets' TH-4003 horn clone ( TAD ).
- I believe, this horn has a 80 by 30 degree dispersion pattern , .
- As Widget does, one would want to use a tweeter above 9K .
- This large radial offers the lowest crossover point that I've seen .
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=7965&stc=1&d=1117355669
- The next best ( IMO ) is the 2435 mounted to the PT-F64 . It too would need a UHF device above 9K .
- I use these JBL horns or waveguides with 2431s ( in my SR work ) and they do sound very nice .
- Realistically, this horn can almost run unequalized from 1.2K to 9K if one wants to keep things simple .
- In my case, the high frequencies above 10K are restored by parametric EQ ( obviously boosted ) .
- This option is your most affordable & quite attainable by purchasing direct from JBL Pro .
- Obviously, an 800 hz crossover point just isn't attainable with this waveguide ( unless the lower octave [from 800 to 1600 hz ] is EQed upwards )
- ( btw, ignore Widgets' naming errors found within this graph )
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=7975&stc=1&d=1117356886
- Here's what one of my 2431Hs looks like on a H5038 ( the Paragon Horn ) with a 1.4" to 2" adapter .
- The H5038 is a 60 by 30 degree horn having an elliptical mouth .
- Again, using the H5038, would necessitate the use of a tweeter / and by the looks of it , a mild notch filter should be located on 6K .
- One can see ( from the graph ), that a 800hz crossover point is within reach ( without resorting to EQ tricks ) .
- I might eventually try a set of these at home ( with one of my tweeter choices ) .
- Noteworthy here, I've used a fairly demanding 3 db vertical scale / so ; I consider this response quite smooth ( even with one of my 2431 drivers of dubious quality ) .

<> cheers

[Robh3606]

Hello Jerrod


I have done 2 working systems with these drivers, one a biamp/passive 3 way using a 121A, 2108 and a 2435 the other my full active set-up. To use them as a 2 way you are going to need to do some compensation on them. You can get them so the top end comporable to a 2344 as far as top extension is concerned and they sound better too when you are done.

You can always drop the slots on top of them and see what's what. I would try them out both ways to see what you like.

As far as a horn?? That has always been the issue. That has not really changed you are limited with any of the newer offerings. I like the PT's I am using. They are nice and shallow so they make things easier especially with passive networks.

Rob:)

[Mr. Widget]

To use them as a 2 way you are going to need to do some compensation on them. You can get them so the top end comporable to a 2344 as far as top extension is concerned and they sound better too when you are done. As a second data point... I'll disagree with the "they sound better" part. Different yes, but I wouldn't call it better. The mids are better in my opinion, and it is always desirable to loose an element when possible, but I don't think the highs are better. (Yes that is merely an opinion. :))


Widget

[Zilch]

It's not terribly expensive to experiment with these; the PT waveguides are just over $100 each.

I'm still using PT-F1010HF, Rob's using PT-H1010HF, Earl and Subwoof're using PT-F64HF, and 4313B's using PT-F95HF. JBL also uses PT-H64HF and PT-H95HF with that driver in product.

Guido liked the P-Audio 2344A knockoff.

[jlharden]

Thank you Earl, Rob, Widget and Zilch for your experience. I suspected horn compatability was still a stumbling block as I was unable to find much different news in current threads than 2004 and prior. I've been building/experimenting for years and will continue on(what else would I do, wife would worry if I quit!). There has been some great groundwork layed, so the trip to good sound shouldn't be a long one! I will do more studying with the suggested options and will likely have more questions and perhaps even some good findings to report along the way. More later.....

Jerrod

[cooky1257]

Hi all, I'm a proud owner of some mint 2345hpl's so a sexy 2 way beckons for me too..
So how does a Brit go about getting hold of these PT waveguides?
The JBL europe/uk site is all over the shop and I can't find a thing let alone order anything:(.
Ideally H9800 clones would be lovely replacements for the 2441/2397 but my potential source has gone deep cover so the PT 1010 plus 2x2235's may be plan B...
Cooky

[Robh3606]

Hello Cocky

Are you going to be using an active crossover or designing a passive?? If you are going down the updated 4435 route watch the woofer efficiency and the top octave. You are going to need compensation to run them in a 2 way and running the PT1010's down to say 1K passive may be a bit of a balancing act to get the 1K crossover point and acceptable response up top.

I have no clue how to get them in Europe but a Pro dealer/reconner would be my first starting point.

Rob:)

[Earl K]

Hi,

Ideally H9800 clones would be lovely replacements for the 2441/2397,,,snip, snip
Cooky

- I'm at a loss why people think the H9800 is the way to go ( must be the glare of bright sunshine or something ) .
- It's design ( as well as the H4338 ) imposes a bunch of lower response ripples that only the most experienced crossover designer is capable of dealing with ( if you aren't talented in this area or at least have some money to throw at the problem [ie; hire a network designer ] then I'd seriously recommend staying away from these horns ).

- Read 4313Bs ( great ) information thread ( very carefully ) about the 476Be (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=226117#post226117) to see what I'm getting at .

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=33784&stc=1&d=1218805826
- See what I mean ? Even the ( wonderfully ) flat response of the 476Be is messed about by the H9800 below 2K ( it wreaks havoc on the 435Be ) .
- Now compare both responses ( of the 435Be & the 476Be ) when driving a JBL Pro waveguide ( seen below ).

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=33788&stc=1&d=1218806592

- It really doesn't get any better ( for a raw curve ) than that 476Be on the waveguide ( it's a PT-F95HF, I believe ) .


,,,,but my potential source has gone deep cover so the PT 1010 plus 2x2235's may be plan B...

- As well they should, I'm confident that the free info that they obtained was never meant to fuel "for-profit horn making " .

>< cheers

ps; IMO, this Giskard network (even though it's for the 476Be on the afore-mentioned waveguide ) is a good place to start ( for the 2435H ) .
- Among other things, it appears to have a mild bit of LF-EQ, acting below 1K to help flatten out the lower response curve .

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=33793&stc=1&d=1218810264
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=33792&stc=1&d=1218810255

[cooky1257]

Hello Cocky

Are you going to be using an active crossover or designing a passive??

Hi Rob, I'll be using an XTA 226 active /system controller. The number of threads and breadth/depth of contributions is awesome on here but info overload means I don't know if I'm coming or going!
The 'plan' is to cross over at 800hz and run the 2435's up to say 13.5-14khz with a bit of eq-I can't hear much above that but with maybe a slot to handle the very last hf if absolutely necessary.
I had assumed the PT 1010 was the one good down to 800hz. I also have the option of running one of the 2235's just as a helper up to 250hz.
Cooky

[cooky1257]

Thanks Earl, input duly noted and taken on board.
Any advice is very welcome.
Cheers
Cooky

[Robh3606]

I had assumed the PT 1010 was the one good down to 800hz. I also have the option of running one of the 2235's just as a helper up to 250hz.
Cooky

Not really and that is their biggest limitation at least the PTH1010. It may work but you are pushing things. You can see how they load up the driver in the 1-3K range and roll-off below that. I have tried out a couple of passive solutions in LEAP and you really take a hit with the attenuation to try to get better low end say below 1k out of them. I have not had a chance to build them yet but they were set-up for a 2 way with about 91db sensitivity.

Running 2431 on a SR horn with 077's up top was a poor-mans Array I had on the drawing board. You can see the horn loads the driver a bit better. The hit on sensitivity with this wasn't all that bad, less than trying to work it from both ends. Once you make the decision to go with a tweeter it gets a lot easier. The second one works out to around 95db using the attenuation on the 2405 as the baseline.

Rob:)

[cooky1257]

Thanks Rob, well I don't want to push things, they're far too expensive.
Seems I need either different woofers with better mid extension or 1.5" horn /wg good to 800hz....I'll have a play running my current set up at 900hz-1khz to see how the 2235's perform though I'm aware that too is a push...

[Earl K]

Rob,

-What's with that 2.8K notch ( on your 2431 ) ? 6db is quite a lot !
- Also, which SR horn is that on ?

>< cheers

[Zilch]

800 Hz means 2352, probably.

That's a stretch for the driver, as well, but it'll get there.... :yes:

[cooky1257]

800 Hz means 2352, probably.

That's a stretch for the driver, as well, but it'll get there.... :yes:

Well that 2352's just a bit too insanely large even for my extremely understanding better half:(
So I could well be selling off my 2235's though they do seem fine crossed over at 900-950hz to these ears at least.....stuck.
Cooky

[jlharden]

The larger 2352's would actually match pretty well with my bass cabinets. I was thinking 511B's before I took the plunge on the 2435HPL's and sized the width of cabinets accordingly. So physical size not being an issue, how would the 2352's compare sonically to the recommended PT waveguides? I missed the boat on the tent sale. Suppose anyone has any 2352's for sale or trade? I do have a few things I could swap.....

[Zilch]

Well that 2352's just a bit too insanely large even for my extremely understanding better half:(Poo.

Stick this pic on the 'Fridge:

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=36434&stc=1&d=1231562722

[Robh3606]

So I could well be selling off my 2235's though

Hello Cooky

You are in the same boat I am still in. I wanted to do a 2 way with them but couldn't find a suitable horn to get me down to 8-900hz. That is one of the reasons I tried one of those LEAP experiments. I too can't do a 2352 either, too damn big.

I ended up going with a 3 way using the PTH1010, 2108 and 121A woofer. In my active set-up I use the same horn using 2123's for the mids. The passive set-up is crossed over at 1.2K the active at 1.5K both of which these PT's can do very well.

You may want to consider going with a 3 way in the interim. That's what I did. With all the bad press these drivers seem to get running them out with no tweeter it is simply not all that bad. Some people seem to be sensitive to it, others are not.

The key is to start with them rolled off and bring them up a little at a time. Your reach a point where they sound just about right and you leave them there. I will admit they are not the end all and be all from 10-20K but for the rest of it, what they do right, more than makes up for it.

As a temporary solution it's not at all going to drive you out of the room screaming. You could also drop an 077 up there and just let them roll off if you want. I would not sell off the 2235's just yet. Sooner or later a decent horn will show up.

Rob:)

[4313B]

With all the bad press these drivers seem to get running them out with no tweeterIs the bad press from anyone that actually matters?

Thought not...

[Ian Mackenzie]

Who sits on axis anyways?

[jlharden]

Anyone used the 2381? Presumably, the 2380 shell with a 1.5" throat? Could be a stepping stone for someone who can't tolerate the size of the 2352, though perhaps more limited in its capabilities.

[Ian Mackenzie]

Have a look at the specs and compare

http://www.jblpro.com/catalog/support/getfile.aspx?docid=887&doctype=3

[Zilch]

Anyone used the 2381?Yeah, me:

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=148612&highlight=2381#post148612

[jlharden]

Thanks for the 2381 links. Looks like they perform much better on a horizontal than vertical axis. I wonder how critical it is when all listening is done in a fixed location of nominal size? For uniform coverage and response the big waveguides do look like the best bet. I'm not sure why I've resisted them. You can lead a horse to water......

Just for fun......it does seem the 1.5" exit drivers have minimal options available for them, yet there is a small group that embraces them. What do they do so well, that makes them worth the additional effort? I will soon be able to judge that for myself, but would be interested to hear what qualities characterize these little drivers?

Jerrod

[Earl K]

Just for fun......it does seem the 1.5" exit drivers have minimal options available for them, yet there is a small group that embraces them. What do they do so well, that makes them worth the additional effort? I will soon be able to judge that for myself, but would be interested to hear what qualities characterize these little drivers?
That seems like a lot of words to say ;


[ a paraphrase by Earl K]
- There a few horns available for JBLs' new drivers , so why should I bother ?

Because, once properly implemented ( EQed ), JBLs' newer drivers sound better than their older drivers .

>, cheers

[jlharden]

Thank you Earl! Simply stated. I'm now excited to get them going!

Jerrod

[jlharden]

Okay, studying the various PT waveguides. It seems the 90 x 50 would best match the directivity of the corner loaded bass cabinets. Ceiling are 8 1/2 feet tall, and each speaker is 12' or so from the listening position. I'm looking at the PT-H95, but can't see where anyone has used them, only the rectanglular F version. Is there anything that detracts from this models performance compared to the others? I'm most interested in the larger waveguides and would like to keep the crossover point as low as practical. Any thoughts on how the PT-H95 might compare to the other models?

[4313B]

I'm looking at the PT-H95, but can't see where anyone has used them, only the rectanglular F version.That's where you fit in. Buy a pair, implement them and then post your results after you're done.

Welcome to DIY.

[grumpy]

Is there anything that detracts from this models performance compared to the others?

It's very deep vs. the comparable PT-F version, and as such seems to depend more
on a diffraction-like section to obtain dispersion vs. the PT-F which is a more 'open'
design (if less controlled, pattern-wise). Whether you like one over the other will depend
on your requirements and preference. There are posts here showing plots of OA-series
drivers on both types and comments, FWIW. If you can't find them, I can run more.

[Zilch]

It's been a while since I've run them, but I found the PT-H95HF to be my favorite-sounding waveguide of the group.

You have to deal with the increased depth and resulting driver offset, but it's not as if that isn't manageable.... :thmbsup:

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=63915#post63915

[jlharden]

Grumpy,

Thanks for describing the physical difference in the horns. That was the type of information I can use. I will search for the mentioned plots.

4313B-

Yes, it is likely that I will do that. I am however trying to draw as much information from the group as I can. It's never efficient to go into something without as much knowledge as possible. And DIY is nothing new to me. Again, trying to gather collective knowledge to propel a project forward without unnecessary mistakes or lateral moves...:) Will definitely report any findings. Good, bad, or ugly......

[jlharden]

Zilch,

Great post. The pics help a lot, as there has been very little released from JBL. Even after many searches it is suprising how buried some of the posts are. I will give this a thorough read. It definitely looks promising!

Jerrod

[jlharden]

One pair PT-H95HF ordered and heading my way. Will post back. Thanks for all the timely information!

Jerrod

[Zilch]

Zilch,

Great post. The pics help a lot, as there has been very little released from JBL. Even after many searches it is suprising how buried some of the posts are. I will give this a thorough read. It definitely looks promising!

Jerrod"Zilch Goes to Boot Camp" concluded three years ago yesterday. There's a Table of Contents, even:

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=9901 (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=9901&highlight=quick+dirty+contents)


;)

[JeffW]

One pair PT-H95HF ordered and heading my way. Will post back. Thanks for all the timely information!

Jerrod

Where do you order them from?

[jlharden]

Hi Jeff,

Straight from JBL Pro:

http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/Horn%20List/Horn%20Parts%20List.pdf

then....

http://www.jblproservice.com/parts.html

[JeffW]

Thanks, I didn't realize JBL Pro sold to the unwashed masses.

[jlharden]

Received the PT-H95HF waveguides yesterday and have the 2435HPL's mounted. The setup is running raw with 1.5K 4th order LR filters and no eq/response correction, yet still is making some great sounds. I will do some refinement this weekend. Attached are a couple pics of the bass cabinets with the 2370's. The PT's are going to need some cosmetic help as they are not so pretty!

[Zilch]

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=232748&#post232748 (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=232748&highlight=Piano#post232748)

[grumpy]

isn't the PT-H95HF the deeper square-faced one? (Mr. Z?)

Nice looking corner-reinforced BR cabinet :)
What was your intended crossover freq again?
or does that remain to be sorted out?

[Zilch]

isn't the PT-H95HF the deeper square-faced one? (Mr. Z?)You're right, of course.

The suggestion of a separate cab as opposed to just sitting the waveguide on top as shown is still valid, I s'pose, so I'll leave it posted.... ;)

[jlharden]

Hi grumpy,

Thanks, the new corner loaded cabinets are working really well. My original plan was to push the xo point as low as practical. Something around 600 to 800hz. I changed direction with the purchase of the 2435HPL's and the PT-H95HF waveguides and will have to find the right balance for these parts. Currently these are setup with a 4th order 1.5K LR network, but I will be experimenting with a lower xo point, assymetrical slopes, and also with a little compensation soon. Success will come, but I welcome application ideas too!

Jerrod

[jlharden]

Hi Zilch,

Thanks for that idea. I was thinking of a "Klipschorn looking" top cabinet, but the waveguide is just tall enough to throw off the aesthetic balance. I may still give it a whirl.....

[pos]

Nice cabs!
Why not use a horn loaded 10" cone mid like in the Pi Seven?
http://www.pispeakers.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/1/products_id/106

The plans for the mid horn are on his forum, I've got the link somewhere...

[pos]

here it is:
http://www.audioroundtable.com/PiSpeakers/messages/14407.html

[jlharden]

Hi pos,

Thanks for the links. Well, I've got two pairs of conical midhorns here loaded with JBL 2123 drivers. I've previously used these in several projects and they are exceptional from 300hz to 1.2-1.5k. This would make a great three or four way design, but also begin to take over the room as most of my projects do!

http://www.flickr.com/photos/jerrod_harden/

http://www.hawthorneaudio.com/photos/index.php?cat=10028

A primary goal of this round was to balance the look/size of the speaker to the new room without sacrificing the sound. Maybe even better sonics in a simpler package?.....I will wait to play with those midhorns, as I already know what I'm missing!

Jerrod

[pos]

Nice!! :applaud:

How does the 10" sounds in this horn compared to simply using it "baffle-loaded" ?

Maybe you could use the 2123H without horn?

Rob does so with a 2435/PT over it :
http://www.audioheritage.org/photopost/data//500/Right_wit_PTH.jpg

[jlharden]

I could certainly attain more uniform frequency response with the 2123 running 250hz to 1-1.5k

I don't want to go much higher physically with the cabinets though. I could place the 2123 beside the PT, but don't know how bad that will skew vertical response. A trade-off is eminent I suppose. I have a few ideas to play with. Also have some Audax PR170MO's.........

[pos]

maybe you could build a dog box inside your current corner box.
0.2cu ft could be enough for the 2123

sommething like this:

[jlharden]

Hi pos,

I'd thought of that, but thanks for the cool visual! That would probably be the best bet. Not sure if I'm ready to hack on the new cabs yet though! I've been playing with a bunch of dsp crossover setups and active compensation for the 2435/PT and will likely be adding a midrange driver or selecting a horn/driver that will xo lower. Going from 3 and 4-way designs to a 2-way is more compromising than I remember......

[Zilch]

Going from 3 and 4-way designs to a 2-way is more compromising than I remember......I'm not getting where you're expecting the midrange frequencies up to 1 kHz to be coming from presently. Reflections off the corner walls?

That's not happening I wouldn't think.... :dont-know

[jlharden]

Hi Zilch,

Similar commercial designs have been implemented in a two-way format, though I can't say how successfully....You are correct that response is suffering above 300 hz or so. I've kludged the 2123J drivers alongside the PT waveguides, and am now ironing out the networks. I may throw the 077's in the mix, for a 4-way plus dedicated subs. No matter how hard I try, I prefer more drivers with less contouring than minimal drivers with too much response correction.

[jlharden]

Hey Zilch,

You mentioned using the 2435HPL's with PT-H95HF's. For compensation, did you use this filter? Thanks for your insight.

Jerrod

[Zilch]

That's my CC implementation of the Timbers filter.

I don't recall what I used with PT-H95HF; it was two brief trials, most likely before that entered the domain, even.

Yes, I could try it for you, but that'll have to wait. The tax man cometh here.... :blink:

[pos]

4313B did use the PT-H95HF in a 2 way design, maybe you can ask him to share is filter design with you?

[jlharden]

Zilch,

That would be great! I'd love to keep this as simple as possible. Doing the compensation with parametric eq doesn't seem "right". The passive compensation circuits look like a better route.

Jerrod

[jlharden]

Hi pos,

Thanks for that, I will try to get some information.

[Zilch]

4313B did use the PT-H95HF in a 2 way design, maybe you can ask him to share is filter design with you?PT-F, as I recall.... :yes:

[jlharden]

I haven't heard anything from 4313B yet, and may just build the networks and see what happens. I wonder if anyone has modeled the circuit in spice to see how component values alter the response correction? I'm not versed enough in spice to set this one up, so it may be a real "trial and error" exercise!

[Zilch]

The Timbers filter?

Yes. Advanced Search under Zilch for keyword "parsed."

Edit: Here's your data:

[Zilch]

"Gauntlet"

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=146690#post146690

Here's the filters I used above, "Gauntlet," front, Timbers rear:

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=22834&stc=1&d=1171246468

[4313B]

I haven't heard anything from 4313B yetI'm using the H4338 horn.

[pos]

Didn't you build something with two 1200Fe and a 90x50 rectangular PT waveguide per side?

[4313B]

Didn't you build something with two 1200Fe and a 90x50 rectangular PT waveguide per side?Yes. I briefly tried a DEQX with them and didn't like the results for a primary home system.

I might end up using the waveguides with some 2204H's at some point. Or I might just sell them.

[Zilch]

Yes. I briefly tried a DEQX with them and didn't like the results for a primary home system.My offer to send you a pair of 2452H plus "SL" diaphragms to try with PT-F95HFs stands.

You may have a different experience with that combo than with 2435HPL/435Be.... :yes:

[4313B]

My offer to send you a pair of 2452H plus "SL" diaphragms to try with PT-F95HFs stands.

You may have a different experience with that combo than with 2435HPL/435Be.... :yes:I also tried 476Be's which seem to work quite well on the waveguides.

I'm still too busy reconing and building networks to worry about my own systems right now. I haven't had a functional personal system for more than a year and it will probably remain that way for some time to come. Basically I briefly messed around with my various driver sets to determine if I wanted to keep them or not and then put them all on the shelf. I sold all my legacy JBL systems over the past several years. At this moment I am still screwing around with 4345 variants when I have time. I'm also waiting on the Project May boxes to come back to me for final network design.

[jlharden]

Zilch ~

Excellent! I will order parts for the "Gauntlet". Just to be sure, is this the appropriate parts list and schematic for the "Gauntlet" version? Thanks!

4313B~

Thank you for the update!


Jerrod

[Zilch]

Just to be sure, is this the appropriate parts list and schematic for the "Gauntlet" version?Yes.

Run it active or passively highpassed at ~1 kHz.

Let us know how that works for you.... :thmbsup:

[Earl K]

Yes.

Run it active or passively highpassed at ~1 kHz.

Let us know how that works for you.... :thmbsup:

- Though you've just said as much ;

- I'm not sure if people actually understand that the schematic is strictly a HF compensation/contour network ( ie; it still needs a HighPass crossover put in front of it .

- BTW; once a 2-pole hipass is put in front of this filter /that 2 mH coil is largely redundant ( or least it's value should be reworked to move it into a more active filtering zone so to speak / if desired ).

><

[jlharden]

Thank you Zilch, will definitely let you know how it works out!

Earl ~ yes, thanks. Filtering will be active, so I assume the 2mh coil value will be valid without the interaction of reactive components?

[Earl K]

Earl ~ yes, thanks. Filtering will be active,

-You're welcome !


snip,,,,so I assume the 2mh coil value will be valid without the interaction of reactive components? ,

- I'm not sure what you just asked / but / with or without a passive HP in front of the Lpad, my sims ( & calcs ) show that the 2 mH coil actively filters below the 400hz area ( its' 3 db down point is in the neighbourhood of plus 90 hz .
- Being a single-pole filter ( thus sloppy ), its effects reaches as high as 400 to 500 hz .
- & FWIW, the Lpad in GTs' filter, blocks most interaction with the passive elements that might be placed on opposing sides of (said) pad .

- Would I include the 2 mH coil ( if I were to use this filter ) ? Likely not, because even though I biamp my Altec horns / I use passive HP filtering after the amp . I do use an inline passive line level filter before the amp ( & coincidentally, it filters in about the same area as the 2 mH coil in question ).
- I'd likely move this coil out in front of the pad & then place a 26 uF cap ( or so ) in front of everything/ and then find a way to utilize the "bump-filter" that I had just created ( ie; to help me lower my lowpass crossover point ).

>< cheers

ps ; BTW, look further up wihin this thread at 4313Bs implementation of a similar bump-filter on a waveguide that had a 476Be mounted to it .

[Zilch]

Actively crossed, I'd just put a protection cap in front. You can see there's not much response capability left in this combination below where 15 uF rolls it off.

I'm seeing +/- 1 dB there, and if that's representative of how a bunch of 2435HPLs perform with this waveguide, I THINK I'd let it be, unless and until proven otherwise.... :yes:

[Earl K]

Actively crossed, I'd just put a protection cap in front. You can see there's not much response capability left in this combination below where 15 uF rolls it off.

- I'm guessing the "15 uF" references this FR graph . I agree the addition of the 15uF cap gives a better looking curve and your lowQ parallel notch-filter nicely fixes the response above 3K . :p
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=38391&stc=1&d=1238692535


I'm seeing +/- 1 dB there, and if that's representative of how a bunch of 2435HPLs perform with this waveguide, I THINK I'd let it be, unless and until proven otherwise.... :yes:

IME;
- Once a DC blocking cap is put into place ( DC-biased ? hopefully ) / one might as well go all the way and make that cap part of the HP network filtering ( which you've done with the 15 uF cap ) .
- The next step ( if its' position remains the same ) is to reduce the size of that 2 mH coil ( bringing its' filtering curve into the 800 hz range ) . I did that this morning with a mockup of this filter / a .56 mH coil still didn't have a huge effect on the response ( of a 2431H on a PT-F64 / or a H5038 ) / the resulting curve when both poles are engaged this way - is "banana like" / or Bessel-looking .

:)

ps#1 ; Here's the ARTA look-see . This is with the GT padding / a 22uF cap / the coil in question / & my own passive EQ .

ps#2 ; Here's the voltage drive with the coil in place behind the pad.

ps#3 ; Here's the schematic that I used ( including extra parts ) .

[Zilch]

I'm no crossover/filter guru, clearly. Giskard provided the Timbers H4338 filter, I tweaked it a bit for H9800, and then again for PT-H1010, the hard way, using response measurements. This is the first time I've run it with PT-H95HF, and it appears to work well, though I've not set up to listen to it.

The 15 uF was Giskard's suggestion for a rudimentary highpass somewhere along the path, and RobH has worked with the compensation portion to adjust the overall attenuation, which is substantial. I haven't dug into that, but I believe the parsing points the way.

It's been two years since I worked with this to a chorus of yawns, but there now seems to be more interest in DIY using 243x and PT waveguides, so it may be time for a fresh look. If it may be said that there was/is an underlying theme to what I have done, it has been a quest for turnkey approaches which anyone can build. I appreciate that's inconsistent with others' perspectives as to purposes here, and somewhat less that optimum by the highest standards, perhaps, but for the majority who don't have the capability to do custom design, a worthy pursuit, in my view. It's unlikely that anyone will ever build another H4348/SK2-1000 clone, but there are certainly plenty of DIYers presently enjoying the pleasures of EconoWave, the roots of which are most assuredly here on LHF.

This has been an retrospective interlude; I return you now to our regular programming. ;)

Edit: O.K., I'll take a quick look at PT-H64 and PT-F64 with the two filters here, then.... :yes:

[jlharden]

Yes, I was late to the 2435/PT game. As such, I didn't expect much response. It has been very helpful and much appreciated! I've ordered the "Gauntlet" parts and will get the networks assembled, then experiment with some variables. A good starting platform really helps! It looks like the ball is rolling a bit again on the 2435's/PT waveguides/filters and I look forward to anymore refinement that evolves. Thanks again!

Jerrod

[Zilch]

With Timbers and "Gauntlet" HF compensation filters:

[4313B]

O.K., there's all six of them PT waveguides on CC Timbers and "Gauntlet" filters, then, using the same 2435HPL driver.Thanks for showing everyone that one size doesn't fit all. We can tell them that but a picture works better.

I think Rob likes his 1010's and it looks like that waveguide might be the best bet with the 2431/435Al/2435/435Be phasing plug.

Like I've said before, the 2452H-SL is arguably the better bang for the buck at roughly the same price and JBL sure likes them.

[Zilch]

Like I've said before, the 2452H-SL is arguably the better bang for the buck at roughly the same price and JBL sure likes them.Not that what I like counts for anything in the bigger picture, but I sure like them too. It's clear that 2435HPL plays nicely on some of these PTs, as well.

It's now over three years ago that Widget and I first looked at these. It took me about a year to get that NOT pushing them hard to 20 kHz was sonically the better approach to using them successfully.... :thmbsup:

[4313B]

It took me about a year to get that NOT pushing them hard to 20 kHz was sonically the better approach to using them successfully.... :thmbsup:The best bet seems to be to try and get them ~ 6 to 8 dB down at 20 kHz. Of course that's on the larger consumer horns. The 1010 waveguide looks good enough for a 2344A/2425H replacement.

[Robh3606]

The 1010 waveguide looks good enough for a 2344A/2425H replacement.

Yes that's what I used my first pair for and they worked out very well.


The best bet seems to be to try and get them ~ 6 to 8 dB down at 20 kHz. Of course that's on the larger consumer horns.

When I originally set them up I was Conservative with the amount of level I had out there. I ended up running them towards the -4/-6 side as anything below -6 just didn't sound right to me. Figure about -6 in my HT and -4 in my passive version using the 2108's.

I found setting them up, I was looking right on axis about 2 feet out. When you back things up to 2 meters and move off the throat they roll off so if are already 6 of more down in the "hot spot" by the time you get where you sit they tend to sound bit too dull. Well to me anyway.

I think that's really where the difference Widget brings up comes about. They sound a bit dry and analytical compared to a nice TI tweeter like an 050 Gold. They are different for sure but you can decide for yourself it you think it's worth adding a tweeter or not. Same with the attenuation you can play with the level and see what works for you.

Rob:)

[4313B]

They are different for sure but you can decide for yourself it you think it's worth adding a tweeter or not.True.

The 045's are quite nice (need to find someone to model a decent horn though). I don't have any idea what the Pro equivalents are, I never asked.

[Robh3606]

I don't have any idea what the Pro equivalents are, I never asked.

I don't think there are any. Certainly no horns with a small enough throat. I think all the 2407/8/12 are all 1 3/8 screw on's with 1" throats. Would be great if I was wrong though.

Rob:)

[pos]

This horn Zilch showed us looks quite promising in this regard:
http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=24280#11

It seems to keep its 90° pattern up to at least 15khz !

The 045 horn is said to be 60°x30° in the S9800, so that should be the directivity of the H9800 at 10khz?...

I am planning to try these little horns with my 2407, used as tweeters above a pair of 2435 on H9800

[thuy]

Here's my little contribution :

1srt picture : 2435HPL + Westlake horns + PC-5038 P audio 2" to 1"5 adapter - Frequency response (unequalized, unsmoothed)

2nd picture : same above impedance + phase

3rd picture : 2431H + Westlake horns + PC-5038 P audio 2" to 1"5 adapter - Frequency response (unequalized, unsmoothed)

The frequency response is a little physiological, but I like it (easy to correct in high frequency is needed). The impedance vary only from 5 to 8 ohms.

The usable band is 600-130000 Hz with very low distorsion (take care about power limitation). Unfortunately, I don't know how to equalize the lack in 400-600Hz (help welcome).

The 2431H frequency response is even more regular. The Westlake dispersion is similar to the 2397 horn : 140°x60° but can go a bit lower in low frequency (but a bit lower in high frequency).

[jlharden]

I've received all my parts to make the filters. I have started laying out the circuits, but they are not looking so clean as Zilch's. More to do later. Zilch, you don't by chance have any pics of the bottom sides of your boards?

[Zilch]

No, but I may have a layout drawing. If so, I'll fire up the scanner.... ;)

Edit: The board is 6" square:

[jlharden]

Zilch,

Thanks for the scan. My layout came out similar. I tried a few different configurations to minimize the jumper wires, but it seems unavoidable with point to point wiring. I just finished up some mods to my eXtended Foreplay III preamp last night, so now I need to sling some solder! Thanks again!

Jerrod

[Zilch]

HA! No jumpers allowed on MY boards.... ;)

The "?" resistor is there so we can adjust the "Q" of the tank filter as precisely as desired using a parallel pair....

[jlharden]

Networks together and flawless thanks to the great info and schematics. The sonic result is very promising! I'm tri-amped with 2a3 triodes on the 2435's, push-pull KT-88's on 2123J's, and a Crown K2 driving the 2226's. A Driverack 260 DSP does processing duty and a pair of Rythmik DS15's fill out the response below 35 cycles. I will break out the RTA tomorrow for fine tuning, but really enjoying the speakers right now. A few pics before long.....

[Zilch]

I am anxious to see your measurements. That filter clearly works 2435HPL the best on PT-H95HF here, and I recall from when I first experimented with it, I thought it the nicest sounding of the PT waveguides with that driver, as well.... :thmbsup:

[Zilch]

I will break out the RTA tomorrow for fine tuning, but really enjoying the speakers right now. A few pics before long.....O.K., we've waited long enough.

Let's see them PICS!

[And them curves, too, but only if they're good.... :D ]

[jlharden]

Well, a few quick pics.....I've been quite busy lately, but did have a little time for tuning over the past weekend. A little more micro-tuning to come, though everything is working really well!

[Earl K]

Nice looking package you've contructed there . Congratulations !

>< cheers

[Zilch]

GORGEOUS, every bit of it...! :thmbsup:

[Robh3606]

Hey they look nice!

Rob:)

[hjames]

Well, a few quick pics.....I've been quite busy lately, but did have a little time for tuning over the past weekend. A little more micro-tuning to come, though everything is working really well!

Wow!! Really nice looking combo!
If they sound HALF as nice as they look, you must be in heaven!
Kudos to you!

[jlharden]

Thank you all for the nice words and support with the filter network for the 2435's/waveguides. The cabinets turned out well, and I will be fighting the urge to build any new speakers for a long while. I've told my wife that this is it.....she doesn't believe me! I really I enjoy the journey, but the destination is a good place too!:)

These certainly excel at details that past speakers have masked. There is a tonal and spacial realism to instruments that borders on eary. The presentation is different than past speakers. It's not forced or compressed, but seems to flow. Individual recordings take on a unique scale, where other speakers have seemed to inflect a certain "size or space" that seems to transcend recordings and is more an artifact of the speaker/room interface than the musical performance. So anyway, they are good!

btw, anyone with a single 2123J in excellent condition? Had a cosmetic mishap a few years back......

[Woody Banks]

I ran across these exotic looking horns in my latest quest. Has anyone run across these babies before? The larger 400Hz horn will mate with the 2435 and the smaller one is for the 2407 & 2408 with the screw thread.

[gavaets]

Earl,
Thank you for your work and suggestion for the 2435HPL on the PT-F95HF.
I want to add the UHF Bullet tweeter 8Ohm above 9khz on it.
Can you show on your diagram the best way to do it?
Thank you.

[Earl K]

Earl,
Thank you for your work and suggestion for the 2435HPL on the PT-F95HF.
I want to add the UHF Bullet tweeter 8Ohm above 9khz on it.
Can you show on your diagram the best way to do it?
Thank you.


Hi,

The displayed schematic belongs to Giskard ( who no longer posts here ) > I merely referenced it as a good starting point to the thread originator.

Regardless; I do use a Fostex 945N bullet tweeter ( over top of my Altec 288-8K//Emilar EH combo ).

I run my Altec all the way out ( no lowpass is created on the horn-driver ) and then bring in the tweeter with a single 1.5uF cap ( plus a PEQ notch filter that is derived from a .26mH coil + 5uF cap + 4R resistor > all in series with each other > strapped across the input terminals of the Fostex ).

Here's the schematic ( try something like this and see how you like it ).

87704

If it's too loud on balance > use a smaller first cap ( try 1uF in the C1 position ) .

:)

[gavaets]

Got it!
Thank you.
:applaud:

[gavaets]

Last question:
What is 300u in L4?

[Robh3606]

.3 mh low value inductor

[gavaets]

.3 mh low value inductor

Thank you.
And L3 is 2Ohm resistor or 2mH inductor?