good arguments

[DJXS.ee]

well today in a chemistry class i was talking to my friend about what the cheapest cabinets he could get for like small backyard parties. somehow other people heard us and immediatly thought of subwoofers because of my use of 15/18 drivers with horns etc. They started yelling at him GET KICKER GET ALPINE type R'S!!!1 and all those petty brands. so i turn around and say JBL could outperform those drivers. and everyone says NO KICKER IS THE BEST THEYRE SO LOUD. and half of them have never heard JBL so i know im talking to an uneducated (in the field of sound) croud and i dont just happen to carry specs of kickers drivers and Jbls drivers with me all the time, so what is a fantastic response to "no JBL is cheap and i hate them" besides that they use the same technology in the VErtec because 99% of the people dont know what a vertec is.

[Titanium Dome]

Ah, the joys of peer pressure from ignorant peers.

How about this? "Your mother must have had her stomach too close to a Kicker while she was carrying you, and the freaking distortion scrambled your two brain cells."

Okay, maybe not.

[Titanium Dome]

Print out this page and carry it with you.

http://www.jbl.com/car/products/product_detail.aspx?prod=W15GTI

then show this youtube video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Ut2dzd3uDA

Watch it crack the windshield. The sound sucks, but then you're not hearing it on W15GTI subs.

[speakerdave]

well today in a chemistry class i was talking to my friend about what the cheapest cabinets he could get for like small backyard parties . . . .


Well, in that particular context, it might be good idea to spin back around in your chair and learn some chemistry.

Beyond that, know that JBL is going to be a difficult sell when someone is looking for the cheapest.

Fortunately, or not, JBL has resorted to making some downscale hardware so as not to be completely elbowed out of the market by cheap imitations. I'm not familiar with most of that equipment, but I do have some experience with the self-powered G2 EON 15's, and I would say they are a remarkably engineered system to address just that end of the market-- the end of the market where people think boom and tizz is sound reinforcement. They are not the only ones available, of course, and I haven't listened to all the others, but I believe the EON series (now in its third generation) will hold its own with any comparable equipment and is clearly superior to much of it. I have heard some Yamaha's, and although they do make some good equipment (pianos, like) I thought their self-powered PA speakers were crap.

It's pretty amazing to me what people will sometimes settle for in the way of PA sound. It's as if they don't believe it's desirable to try and make a voice sound like a voice. I recently went to a reading by some translators of a recent edition of some of Rilke's poetry. It was held in a marvelous 120/year old redwood and fir church here in my town. That kind of structure handles sound beautifully, and I did not think a PA was even necessary. Sadly, it is almost needless to say that there was a sound system, and it was horrible, with the worst performance on sibilants that I have ever heard. Only my wife's grip on my shirt sleeve kept me the pew. The reading was about half over before I was able to tune out the mess and hear the voices and the words through the caustic haze.

And that's what happens. People's expectations are very low for PA sound, and they just tune it out and try to enjoy themselves. If you are ever involved in choosing some sound reinforcement equipment, I hope you will try to move things toward quality.

Indoors the EON type of equipment is sometimes used without a subwoofer, but outdoors I would think it would be near-essential to supplement the lows.

I don't know if it's going to do any good to argue about it. But you could state very simply, and unemotionally, that evaluation of sound systems is best done with listening and not so well done in off-line arguments in chemistry class.

[boputnam]

Everything speakerdave said, as per usual.


...GET KICKER...This is the bane of current day appreciation by the, er, current generation. It's all about thump and not about fidelity. A real pity - and since it's something that is learned (an aquired taste) it will be very hard to be weaned from.

Many/almost all venues I work, the subs are out of balance with the mains - in some instances by +12dB. That presents a very difficult engineering situation, too often solved by excessive SPL to "get the vocals on top".

Wrong.

I measure the room's response to the system and back-down the subs gain to achieve a balanced result - I do this either in the DSP or on the subs amps, if that is all there is available. The result is a better experience for the band (lessened LF loading at stage so they can hear better and can turn down) and lower overall system gain - that is, I am not fighting the subs. But when we leave, I restore the house settings, because the house engineer knows the next act might be a "thump and bump", and they'll want that excessive sub gain.

It's an aquired taste enabled by the system efficiency available today, fostering a generation which wants the feel of music, and is not so aware of the often loss of fidelity and overall balance. :(

Then, of course, there are the issues speakerdave addressed, which is just poor SR application and lack of knowing. Too often loud is "better", and affected without any ability to measure the response - and, of course, the doers too often don't listen nor critique and refine the result of their loud. Pretty much, it sucks.

As a close engineer friend warned: "the better you get at this and the more you do it, the less you will want to go out and get subjected to someone's half-brained results". +1