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View Full Version : Crown Vs. Crown..The China Syndrome !



jeenie67
03-04-2009, 02:58 AM
I decided as recent replies to posts in the music category "What's Playing Now" have sparked some off topic comments, which I do enjoy, I'd put forth the question here.

I currently use two Crown XLS-202's, one model which features the former styling and the newer 202, where the designers restyled the faceplate and eliminated one cooling fan. I haven't had the time to peruse the specifications, schematics, or pop the tops to have a look see. I also wish to examine the various internal components used in manufacture. Both are made in the mystical land of China, in which I'm currently taking a course in it's history from the sixteenth century to the nineteenth century; when in my opinion, their political ideologies were a little more cohesive to global harmony.

One evening while connecting a new crossover unit, I began to try different combination's of bi-amping my Altec Model 14's. I chose dedicated right/ left speaker amplification at this time. During a prolonged listening session I noticed a difference in the sonic qualities exhibited by each amplifier. This peculiarity, although not a major issue, still annoyed me after a while. With certain media I have to compensate the volume levels, increasing the newer unit one notch, sometimes two, to achieve a proper right/left balance. I have owned many Crown amps, some in multi-amp applications, for decades past and never experienced anything like this before. Tonality remains constant.

My question: Has anyone ever experienced this characteristic with their system? Replies from members owning amplifiers of various manufacturers would be highly appreciated.

Aye' ....Tanx ! Jeenie 67.

BMWCCA
03-04-2009, 07:18 AM
With certain media I have to compensate the volume levels, increasing the newer unit one notch, sometimes two, to achieve a proper right/left balance. I have owned many Crown amps, some in multi-amp applications, for decades past and never experienced anything like this before. Tonality remains constant.

My question: Has anyone ever experienced this characteristic with their system? Replies from members owning amplifiers of various manufacturers would be highly appreciated.
Without a calibrated source, you can't really determine if the differences you're hearing are the amps. You can swap them side to side maybe. I bi-amp with Crowns (old-school D-series U.S.-made stuff) and often find imbalance in level and tone from one channel to the next on different source material. In most cases that's the nature of "stereo", or a poor mastering job. My amps are in "conventional" bi-amp mode where the left channel of each goes to the left speakers, etc. My old pre-amp had a mono-L/R mix function making it easy to take the stereo-effect out of the equation but still leaving room acoustics and reaction as one variable, particularly in level from barrier reinforcement, etc. Individual driver levels (L-pad variation) can make one sound louder than the other, too, since your ear be more sensitive to sound from the mid-range than any other frequency. Maybe a test signal could help you determine where your imbalance in level is coming from. If your leads are long enough, you could also try swapping speakers L-R while keeping the amps the same. Or just swap at the pre-amp output. It could be an imbalance in your pre-amp, such as deficient output, uncalibrated balance control, etc. Of course the suggestion here for bi-amping in the fashion you're using was to use "identical" amps. We already know that's not the case with yours. ;)

FWIW, I asked about whatever we want to call this type of bi-amping on the Crown forum and got a lukewarm response that seemed to indicate there was nothing to be gained, at least from the standpoint of using Crown amps with sufficient power to start with.
I believe that [the suggestion] is referring to the fact that most amplifier manufactures test to one of two standards, either the FTC or EIA ratings standards.
The FTC standard was established by the Federal Trade Commission and requires that a manufacturer’s stated power ratings must meet the advertised frequency range (usually 20 Hz to 20 kHz) at the rated THD (Total Harmonic Distortion) with both channels driven.
The EIA rating, established by The Electronic Industries Association, is the power output of a single channel driven at typically 1 kHz with 1% THD clipping. The EIA standard will typically be 10 to 20% higher than the FTC ratings.
We go one step further than the EIA ratings and drive both channels as we feel the fairest, most honest, and most revealing rating method is the obvious one: to specify power with all channels fully driven, as this is a more real world scenario. When fewer channels are being tested, the more power the ones being used can deliver. This can artificially increase the apparent power output. By testing with both channels driven we are decreasing the standard 10-20% difference of one channel driven. To put it in a nut shell we basically provide a more conservative power spec of the EIA standard because we test with both channels driven during our tests not just one.

What does a 10-20% power difference mean in reality? For the average person to hear a difference in loudness/level, you would need to double the power to the speakers. You can hear the difference between 200 watts and 400 watts, a 3 dB increase or doubling of power, but you won’t hear a difference between 200 watts and 240 watts as small difference in output power are not discernable to the human ear.

Now let’s apply this to your scenario. From above you can see that: Using our amps with both channels, driving the same frequency range, you wouldn’t hear much of a difference as our performance specs are rated with both channels driven not just one.

There is one issue you should consider and that is if you use say a PS 400, for one channel lows and the other channel highs: Can the highs handle the extra power that the lows can?

Personally I would match the amplifier power for the speakers and if it means one amp driving both channel of lows and another amp driving both channels of the highs I would do it rather than over power my highs or under power my lows.

robertbartsch
03-04-2009, 07:37 AM
I have two Crown XLS 802 amps and many of the components, including the output transistors, are stamped "MEX"

I assume this means they are manufactured in Mexico and not in China.

BMWCCA
03-04-2009, 08:26 AM
I have two Crown XLS 802 amps and many of the components, including the output transistors, are stamped "MEX"

I assume this means they are manufactured in Mexico and not in China.

Or maybe blame the buying public's demand for cheap watts without regard for where they're made or how they're built? If it was just NAFTA, nothing Crown makes would come from Indiana any more. Yet some still do. It's fairly obvious to me that the market for cheap high-power amps for DJ work is the driving force behind going off-shore to meet that demand. For those that want the highest quality, they can still find US-made products (MacroTech) but you may have to pay for the privilege. It becomes a choice. Why do the Japanese (and others) put US-made products on a pedestal (JBL)? Is it just nostalgia?

I'd prefer to buy everything as "made in USA". But for some items it's impossible. But don't blame just Clinton. Protective legislation and market diddling has driven even LifeSavers from the US because of our ridiculous sugar subsidies and price controls. When did you last see even candy corn made in USA? It's not just NAFTA, it's our silly agricultural-policies, too.

I can't even find produce in the grocery store from the USA. And I'm no longer able to buy Levi's made here. Or plumbing supplies for repairs or new construction. Or hardware; screws, nails, washers. But then most of the parts I buy to maintain my BMWs don't come from Germany, either! The JBL-Pro T-shirt I bought the other day came from Nicaragua.

Sure, I'm a Luddite, but if you look in any of my system racks the only non-made-in-USA parts will be the turntable, disc player, tape deck, and some interconnects. I was quite happy to find that Ashly is a fine New York company. I have eleven US-made Crown products and eleven US-made pre-MTX Soundcraftsmen components, one McIntosh, and even an old tube Sherwood. And, of course, all my speakers. That's just me. Corporate America doesn't seem to share that same pride any more.

Hoerninger
03-04-2009, 09:10 AM
I suppose you can thank ... a dear price for this short sighted decision.
It is a world wide problem (with different impact). Simply said the rich countries consume, the poor ones produce.
____________
Peter

SEAWOLF97
03-04-2009, 09:36 AM
I'd prefer to buy everything as "made in USA". But for some items it's impossible. .

Same here, in fact I dont mind paying a premium on products made USA , Japan , Europe or Scandinavia . Just bought a Cambridge Audio sub , forgot to look at country of origin ..you guessed it ..China & malfunctioning ...this to follow a nice sub that said "Made in Canada", plugged it in and smoke...BOX was made in Canada , ELECTRONICS from China..

Dont misconstrue my opinion ...we have Chinese friends , have traveled there ,,but I wont consciously buy substantial product made there , unless there is absolutly no other choice. We also travel to VN , if you bring them a gift from America, the first thing they do is flip it over to check COO. Even the poor do not want MIC products.

BUT ...from my youth I remember that we saw Japan in that same light in the 50's. .....so mebbe there iis some hope

jeenie67
03-20-2009, 07:39 AM
....And what did we find, me and my cohort?
Two Crown XLS-202's sharing hardly anything in common. I've learned from restoring my old tube radios how tonality and other characteristics can be changed or modified by the substitution of individual components such as capacitors, diodes, and especially tubes. Even though the values are the same, different manufacturers or even the era when they were made makes a huge difference. I also learned more re-building my vintage Les Paul guitar....I bought old caps on eBay with the same values as the originals, but the vintage ones had it all over the newer ones in the way of sound. I guess it has to do with every internal element of the particular component.
Looking over the Crowns, the circuit was the same, but most of the major components were different. I still wonder about the volume issue....I can't pin that one down. A prior post has given me some insight, but a definite answer still eludes me.
Tube power amps are in my mind as these Crowns will serve duty in my theater system later on down the road.
I thank you for your responses. Jeenie. :coolness:

Doc Mark
03-20-2009, 08:49 AM
(big snip)

Sure, I'm a Luddite, but if you look in any of my system racks the only non-made-in-USA parts will be the turntable, disc player, tape deck, and some interconnects. I was quite happy to find that Ashly is a fine New York company. I have eleven US-made Crown products and eleven US-made pre-MTX Soundcraftsmen components, one McIntosh, and even an old tube Sherwood. And, of course, all my speakers. That's just me. Corporate America doesn't seem to share that same pride any more.

Hey, BMWCC,

I'm not sure Ashly making their goodies in the USA. I was surprised, and more than a little dismayed, to find that the new Ashly XR4001 electronic crossover, was made in.......... yep, you guessed it: China!!! :blink::banghead: I had purchased it, in part, because it was a US company, and I had heard that their stuff was still manufactured here. If my own Ashly product is any kind of example, looks like their stuff is coming from overseas, now, which is a real shame. As much as I hate to say it, I have far less confidence in the Ashly, now that I know it was not US-made. I hope I'm wrong, and that my Ashly unit works perfectly, and for a very long time. We'll see, eh? Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

robertbartsch
03-20-2009, 09:41 AM
WELL THAT IS WEIRD since I own 3 Crown XLS 802s. One shuts down with moderate power and the other two are OK.

...makes me wonder if different compaonenst were used in the thermal curcuits.

RKLee
03-20-2009, 02:19 PM
Worth a read, could explain those anomalies, ie bad filter capacitors.

Wikipedia - Capacitor plague

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitor_plague
"The capacitor plague (also known as bad capacitors) involved the common premature failure of certain brands of electrolytic capacitors used in various electronics equipment, and particularly in motherboards, video cards, compact fluorescent lamp ballasts, and power supplies of personal computers. The first flawed capacitors were seen in 1999, but most of the affected capacitors were made in the early to mid 2000s, and while news of their failures (usually after a few years of use) has forced most manufacturers to fix the defects, some bad capacitors are still being sold or integrated into designs as of early 2007"

jeenie67
03-20-2009, 07:24 PM
Good reading! :applaud:

JeffW
03-27-2009, 11:30 AM
Hey, BMWCC,

I'm not sure Ashly making their goodies in the USA. I was surprised, and more than a little dismayed, to find that the new Ashly XR4001 electronic crossover, was made in.......... yep, you guessed it: China!!! :blink::banghead: I had purchased it, in part, because it was a US company, and I had heard that their stuff was still manufactured here. If my own Ashly product is any kind of example, looks like their stuff is coming from overseas, now, which is a real shame. As much as I hate to say it, I have far less confidence in the Ashly, now that I know it was not US-made. I hope I'm wrong, and that my Ashly unit works perfectly, and for a very long time. We'll see, eh? Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

Unless they are making false claims, some of their stuff is still "Made in the USA", or at least has that printed on it.

BMWCCA
03-27-2009, 10:45 PM
At least my old gray-face XR1001 was:
http://www.ashly.com/images/product/300dpi/rear/xr1001-b.jpg

Eaulive
10-02-2009, 09:23 PM
I have two Crown XLS 802 amps and many of the components, including the output transistors, are stamped "MEX"

I assume this means they are manufactured in Mexico and not in China.

The output transistors are made by ONsemi, former Motorola and the plant is in Mexico.
However there was MANY counterfeit transistors from that series, and you find them from time to time as replacement parts. (MJ15024/15025, 15003/15004, 21195/21196)

SEAWOLF97
10-03-2009, 10:24 AM
If Phil can compare his Levi's (Macau has been the worlds production center for many years) - then I'll make the comparison for bicycles.

I've had 2 nearly identical TREK bikes ....a 2007 model from Ch1na & a 1996 USA produced one....

Got the Ch1na one first and regretted my decision...the grip shifters were terrible, the welds amateurish , accessories falling apart or wearing prematurely...

The 11 year older USA one is almost an exact opposite :applaud: ...a joy to shift (tho shifting components are Japanese) ..great quality , looks like it will hold up for 50 years of daily riding.

worked on home improvement projects and had screws that deform..nails that bend when used....guess where they came from ?

when purchasing now...part of the decision process is to look for COO on the rear ...life is too short to endure shoddy crap..

new slogan......."Ch1na made is a last resort"

BMWCCA
10-03-2009, 07:51 PM
new slogan......."Ch1na made is a last resort"I agree. Though it's getting more difficult every time I make a plumbing repair on this old house to find anything NOT from China. :(

Doc Mark
11-01-2009, 03:38 PM
Hi, BMWCC,

Well, here's the sad proof that my Ashly was not made in the US. I wondered why the seller, a very reputable company, which was recommended to me by friends on this forum, was so willing to discount my XR-4001, and once I got it, I knew why.

As I'm still trying to get a day when I can completely unplug every piece from my setup, to track down a nasty hum, I have not tried to use the Ashly more than when I first tried to get it hooked up. At that time, personally, I thought my old Crown VFX-2A crossover sounded more full and less compressed than the 4001. We'll see how it all turns out in the end, though. Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

Here's the proof that my Ashly, and very possibly ALL current Ashly crossovers, was made in China:

BMWCCA
11-01-2009, 04:06 PM
Well, here's the sad proof that my Ashly was not made in the US. I wondered by the seller, a very reputable company, which was recommended to me by friends on this forum, was so willing to discount my XR-4001, and once I got it, I knew why.Hey Doc,
I don't think you have a choice anymore. As best I can tell, the units with the dash in the model numbers are made in China and are the newest, and only ones available new. Your XR-4001 is made in China. My XR1001 is made in NY. The faceplate and logo are different, too. I can't say one is better than the other but it's a sad reality, regardless.

My hum turned out to be simply a loose contact in the 1/4" input on the D150A-II. Never a problem before when I was using RCA-to-1/4" adapters but the new cables I bought with RCA on one end and 1/4" on the other don't fit as tight. The cables are made in USA, I can't be sure they're using USA-made fittings though! Wiggling the male plug in the jack killed the hum. Just not making a good enough contact at the sleeve. I went back to my old cables and it went away. Someday I'll go inside and tighten the contact. Someday. ;)

I have two VFX2-As I bought to bi-amp my 030s to get rid of the N2400s. Thanks SteveH! Just haven't yet gotten around to it. Someday...

Doc Mark
11-01-2009, 08:21 PM
Evening, BMWCC,

Yep, I thought it would be as you say. I missed the "made in USA" boat, I fear, with my Ashly. Oh, well.... When I get time to figure out why my system is creating a humming noise, I'll hook up the Ashly again, and continue on my project to add in the 4645 sub with 2242H woofer. Plus, once that 4-way electronic gizmo is working as it should, I can play with the other projects that have been shuffled to the back burner, too.

In any case, what I have, is what I have, and no use crying over spilled milk, eh?! Talk to you later, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

robertbartsch
11-02-2009, 03:18 PM
I've been buying goods from communist China for many years.

A lot of this stuff is real garbage and other stuff is quite good. I have 3 Crown 802s that are essembled in China. I'm not sure where the components are made but the quality seems very good.

Unfortunately, a couple of diaphragms for compression drivers that I have used are garbage. I assume these were made in communist China but it is only an educated guess.

Unfortunately, buyer beware is the call of the day.

SEAWOLF97
11-19-2009, 07:53 PM
Its really difficult to throw an accurate blanket statement over Made in China products........I was in Harbor Freight the other day and the uneveness of the quality is boggeling...

Some products are outright crap and wont last until you are out the door....others ? well, some seem to be OK , but anything with an electric motor is suspect in my book ( I just destroyed a "Chicago Electric" orange grinder) ...the NiCads are mostly subpar as are tools made of steel , but the ............Oh Hell , my exclusions ruled out most of the store :o:

well,,,their blue tarps.........Naw
their saws ....naw again

Help me guys, I cant remember what is good at HF ...... just cheap and disposable I guess ...thats what modern America wants ?

(I have US made handsaws from the 30's that are still sharp :D )

BMWCCA
11-19-2009, 10:19 PM
Help me guys, I cant remember what is good at HF ...... just cheap and disposable I guess ...thats what modern America wants ?Almost all of my BMWs have been lowered. About the only jack that fits under them now is my HF aluminum "racing" jack. Now there are some really nice USA models costing from $600-up. I don't expect a lot from my $50 (with discount coupon) HF aluminum jack but it works, hasn't broken in over four years of use, and it's light. Of course the hydraulics aren't as good as those costing ten-times as much but then I'm still strong enough to get my nearly-4,000-lb. sedan off the ground with it. I also used their punch set I bought years ago, and never used, to punch a new hole in my belt to accommodate my new, more svelte girth. Worked great. But no guesses as to how many times it will still work great, or whether I could even make one pan gasket with it before it dulled. Then I think the entire set may have only cost five-bucks.

But the jack is righteous!

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/photos/91000-91099/91039.gif

SEAWOLF97
04-26-2011, 11:30 AM
I've had 2 nearly identical TREK bikes ....a 2007 model from Ch1na & a 1996 USA produced one....

Got the Ch1na one first and regretted my decision...the grip shifters were terrible, the welds amateurish , accessories falling apart or wearing prematurely...

yup

Lee in Montreal
04-27-2011, 04:02 PM
Almost all of my BMWs have been lowered. About the only jack that fits under them now is my HF aluminum "racing" jack.

I have been using the smaller size aluminum HF jack for the past 5 years. It never leaked and only failed once when used under freezing conditions. It is my compact track jack and love it. I never felt the need to buy a $600 jack when my $75 unit works fine. Jack is being used on my 2800lb BMW M3 and 1900lbs BMW 2002. Never missed a beat. I've had worst "made in the USA" tools :D

51152

SEAWOLF97
05-27-2011, 08:55 AM
this article is about food, but the premise translates to everything:

Avoiding Chinese food products nearly impossible

"I thought, you know, it would be fun just to see if we could go a whole year ... without China," she said. "It certainly took over our whole life. It became an all-consuming project."

http://www.cnn.com/2007/LIVING/wayoflife/07/26/china.products/index.html

on a related note ...I stopped at a garage sale last week and there was a whole table of hand tools , looked like 30's/40's/50's vintage ..USA made....after years of use they were straight , aligned and working well .... the quality was better than anything that I can buy NEW in 2011.

prices weren't marked, so I asked .... "Oh those are OLD ..so only 3/$1" .....I filled my bike bag to the top and smiled all the way home.

I still smile when just holding one...the craftsmanship is almost overwhelming....;)

1audiohack
05-27-2011, 09:06 AM
Anything you can buy new where?
Snap-On hand tools are still made in Kenosha Wissconsin and are still absolutely top shelf, I make my living with them, and what's left of my brain. :p

4313B
05-27-2011, 09:15 AM
I still smile when just holding one...the craftsmanship is almost overwhelming....;)Yeah but that's non-sustainable in a greed oriented capitalistic society reliant on ever expanding markets. Ideally, the tools (manufactured by slave labor) should spontaneously evaporate after one use so you have to buy another one the next time you need one.

maxwedge
05-27-2011, 05:54 PM
Anything you can buy new where?
Snap-On hand tools are still made in Kenosha Wissconsin and are still absolutely top shelf, I make my living with them, and what's left of my brain. :p
I make my living with those too.:) Much nicer to work on my amps and JBL's with Snap On!:p

SEAWOLF97
05-27-2011, 06:32 PM
I make my living with those too.:) Much nicer to work on my amps and JBL's with Snap On!:p

Is Snap-on available to the general public ?? the one time I looked , was for business only ?

maxwedge
05-27-2011, 07:16 PM
Is Snap-on available to the general public ?? the one time I looked , was for business only ?
Never been for business only, it's just that they cater to automotive repair shops for their primary business. All you need to do is find a Snap On dealer parked at a shop and he'll be very happy to sell to you.
They have a web site now as well. http://www.snapon.com/

1audiohack
05-27-2011, 07:22 PM
Is Snap-on available to the general public ?? the one time I looked , was for business only ?

They are available to any one that want's to buy them, the issue I guess is they are sold off a tool truck only. Most trucks are franchised and the owners don't cruise neighborhoods so if you don't work at a shop, procurement would be difficult I suppose. Many dealers have internet stores so you could shop like that I guess.

You will most likely experience sever sticker shock, but I tell you what, when you really use hand tools hard every day all day long, having a wrench or socket or ratchet that will not break under any sensible circumstance is worth the price, easily.

Someone showed me a bubble pack of Snap-On trinkets made in China from Costco and what ever that crap is, it is not the stuff you buy from a truck.

1audiohack
09-29-2016, 01:51 PM
Some good news!

I just bought another new I-Tech 500HD and, wait for it,, still made in Elkhart Lake, Indiana!

At least the mission critical tour duty stuff is still made here. :hurray::hurray:

Barry.

NWCgrad
12-17-2016, 09:09 AM
Some bad news....

The Crown website shows the DriveCore CT4150 as being made in the United States (from the image of the rear of amp). I try to avoid Chinese made products because of the hacking of all my personal information (the hack of the US security clearance forms) by the Chinese government. To my dismay the CT4150 I just received is made in China (but proudly proclaimed to be designed in the US).

Seems like this should be illegal, it sure is unethical.

1audiohack
12-17-2016, 09:57 AM
GRRRRRRRRRR That sucks!

I want to buy three more I-Tech HD amps by end of year but if they are now also made in China I will buy something else.

Barry.