L100t --> L5 --> ???

[Slare]

Hi folks,

I am interested in starting a small discussion if you'll indulge me.

I've had several sets of JBL's in my relatively limited days, not all of which are worth bragging about. My basic progression (in terms of ones I have really enjoyed) has went:

- Northridge N38 (a modest start)
- L100t
- L5's (current)

My short question since this is a hobby for me, is what would be the next logical step up? I'm very fine with used gear and live in a large metro area where Craigslist is active. So I'm interested in what I should be keeping an eye out for.

--Longer background for those still reading--

L7's seem logical but frankly I can't give them the setup justice which has been hinted at (:D) here as being critical. So they are out. Though I will say if a $250 pair pops up I would no doubt buy them to keep for someday I could use them!

I think the performance series would make sense but I'm already terribly covered on the bass side of things so it seems the 1400's would go a bit wasted, and I don't like the idea of running PT800's compromised as imho they weren't intended to be used like that. So for a stereo kit they seem a poor fit and collectively $2,000 is pretty high for me. I prioritize value very highly.

Let's say my used budget is $1,000 for a pair of stereo towers, and I love the way the L5's sound. I'd like to stay similar for packaging and I do not like the sound of the new Studio series speakers.

Currently I run the L5's with L1's as surrounds and off and on between phantom and an EC35 (best match I could find to my ears) for center duties. 50/50 music with no country or music earlier than the 70's. They are driven by a Denon AVR-987. I am open to going to a upgraded 2 channel amp but prefer not to as I do run subs and don't need much of anything from the speakers at <70-80Hz.

On the sub side I have two Elemental Designs (sorry!) 15" subs in separate built-to-spec sealed enclosures being driven by a Behringer EP2500. The sub area is not the problem, I'm quite more than happy with that side of it and will not be focusing attention there for some time.

If you've made it this far I'd be interested to hear your responses.

Thanks!

[BMWCCA]

L7's seem logical but frankly I can't give them the setup justice which has been hinted at (:D) here as being critical. So they are out. Though I will say if a $250 pair pops up I would no doubt buy them to keep for someday I could use them!As much as I am indebted to T-dome's tome on proper usage of the L7, I have to say (in my experience) much of it is overly cautious. I credit his thread with my finding the L5s and I was quite impressed but, like you balked at the care and feeding of the L7. Until a pair turned up on CL four-houses down the road at at that magic $200 figure. I've since added another pair, same price, 100-miles away. You can put the L7s right next to each other with the woofers pointing out and they will still blow the L5s in the weeds and somehow produce a viable soundstage!

Sure they're more impressive set-up the way JBL suggests but don't be afraid of them. They'll knock you out. I'm firmly convinced there is no better value in the JBL line and it takes an impressive iconic JBL monitor to best them by any significant amount (okay, or maybe an XPL200). I fully expect them to hold their own even in the same room as my new 4345s; that's how impressed I am with them. And I'm not trying to sell mine, either. The spare pair will go either to my brother-in-law or pull duty in the dream garage a best-friend is just completing. Heck, I'd buy a third pair if any turned up. I still respect the L5s and probably prefer them to my 4412A's. I still play both on occasion just to keep things in perspective. But when I switch back to the L7s I just consider myself one lucky guy. :applaud:

I can't imagine you'll find anything a whole lot better in the JBL tower line than the L7 (or the XPLs). Finding a cheap pair will save you money you can spend on a good amp, because they will thrive on lot's more power than your Denon can deliver. They'll work with the Denon, but benefit from more. And you can use your L1s as centers and the L5s as rears and they'll voice perfectly together. But I'm talking though my hat since I'm not a home-theatre guy at all. Two-channel deep listening is all I do. And the L7s are superb for that. Really!

[jbl_daddy]

Do you really think that the L5 sound better than the L100t's???

[BMWCCA]

Do you really think that the L5 sound better than the L100t's???Doesn't surprise me at all, after comparing the L5 to my 4412A's which have an even better woofer (128H-1) than the L100t, the mid-ranges are the same, and the tweeters are all very similar.

[Titanium Dome]

Don't rule out a pair or trio of PT800s with your current subs. I have a stereo pair running with just one L8400P, and it's better than L5s for sure, and better on the mids and top end than the L7s or XPL200s in the same room. Two subs, even two L8400Ps would put the PT800s well ahead of the L7s and XPL200s from top to bottom IMO.

I don't think most PT800 owners here paid even $1000 each for them. As long as you can adjust the sub crossover on your receiver to 80 or 100 Hz you should have no worries running PT800s with your subs, at least until you get the "better sub urge," and you know you will.

[Triumph Don]

Do you really think that the L5 sound better than the L100t's???

Yes.

[BMWCCA]

I don't think most PT800 owners here paid even $1000 each for them."Refurbs" on the Harman on-line store for $1050 each available in all three colors.

[Slare]

Thanks for the replies so far.

I prefer the upper midrange of the L5's over the L100t's and when coupled with subs the benefit of the stronger low end of the L100t's is less of a factor. If I was dealing with a pure 2.0 setup the L100t's with a standalone amp would probably get my nod.

If a cheap pair of L7's popped up I would buy them.

I was also considering XPL's but they are obviously pretty rare. I actually demoed XPL's at a small hi-fi shop many years ago, but I was a kid and have no real memory other than being impressed at the time.

Seems like PT800's may be the kit, maybe if I get lucky I can score a "domelike" deal. I'm still not sure I would feel right having them without the 1400's.

In terms of my subs, I really am all set there and perhaps didn't provide enough details about them. I have two of these drivers (linked below though they are DVC 4 ohm versions running at 2 ohms) in individual properly sized & braced sealed enclosures. The EP2500 sends them a pretty clean ~800 watts rms each. I have very usable response at 20Hz, more output than my ears will ever need at 30-40Hz, and despite being 15" drivers they seem very sharp to me, likely due to the sealed arrangement. The only decent JBL reference I have is the 8400p and one for one these are quite superior imho. Two is just gravy. The AVR-987 I have is also quite flexible though if my room ever gets more challenging I'll need more control over the sub eq.

http://www.edesignaudio.com/product_info.php?t=2&products_id=36

[hjames]

Ahhh - I went to that site and now, I am enlightened!


Home (http://www.edesignaudio.com/index.php) » Car Audio Products (http://www.edesignaudio.com/index.php?cPath=1&osCsid=1af1bc10d7a8ae73ecd2d3bf9b017789) » eD Subwoofers (http://www.edesignaudio.com/index.php?cPath=1_21&osCsid=1af1bc10d7a8ae73ecd2d3bf9b017789) » 16Ov.2 Subwoofer (http://www.edesignaudio.com/product_info.php?cPath=1_21&products_id=36&osCsid=1af1bc10d7a8ae73ecd2d3bf9b017789)

We have some other members who are using repurposed car subs and are quite happy with the results ...! Seems like a real good value! :D




Thanks for the replies so far.

In terms of my subs, I really am all set there and perhaps didn't provide enough details about them. I have two of these drivers (linked below though they are DVC 4 ohm versions running at 2 ohms) in individual properly sized & braced sealed enclosures. The EP2500 sends them a pretty clean ~800 watts rms each. I have very usable response at 20Hz, more output than my ears will ever need at 30-40Hz, and despite being 15" drivers they seem very sharp to me, likely due to the sealed arrangement. The only decent JBL reference I have is the 8400p and one for one these are quite superior imho. Two is just gravy.

http://www.edesignaudio.com/product_info.php?t=2&products_id=36

[Titanium Dome]

Seems like PT800's may be the kit, maybe if I get lucky I can score a "domelike" deal. I'm still not sure I would feel right having them without the 1400's.



The PS1400 completes the look of the stack, but the PT800 is also paired with the HTPS400 in a separate configuration. The PT800 goes on the wall or on a stand, and the HTPS400 goes wherever you want it. There's also an in-wall dual sub arrangement for the Performance Series, so the PS1400 isn't sacred in that regard. Members jblsound and mikebake have PT800s working with custom-built subs and like them a lot.

[JBLAddict]

As much as I am indebted to T-dome's tome on proper usage of the L7, I have to say (in my experience) much of it is overly cautious. I credit his thread with my finding the L5s and I was quite impressed but, like you balked at the care and feeding of the L7. Until a pair turned up on CL four-houses down the road at at that magic $200 figure. I've since added another pair, same price, 100-miles away. You can put the L7s right next to each other with the woofers pointing out and they will still blow the L5s in the weeds and somehow produce a viable soundstage!

Sure they're more impressive set-up the way JBL suggests but don't be afraid of them. They'll knock you out. I'm firmly convinced there is no better value in the JBL line and it takes an impressive iconic JBL monitor to best them by any significant amount (okay, or maybe an XPL200). I fully expect them to hold their own even in the same room as my new 4345s; that's how impressed I am with them. And I'm not trying to sell mine, either. The spare pair will go either to my brother-in-law or pull duty in the dream garage a best-friend is just completing. Heck, I'd buy a third pair if any turned up. I still respect the L5s and probably prefer them to my 4412A's. I still play both on occasion just to keep things in perspective. But when I switch back to the L7s I just consider myself one lucky guy. :applaud:

I can't imagine you'll find anything a whole lot better in the JBL tower line than the L7 (or the XPLs). Finding a cheap pair will save you money you can spend on a good amp, because they will thrive on lot's more power than your Denon can deliver. They'll work with the Denon, but benefit from more. And you can use your L1s as centers and the L5s as rears and they'll voice perfectly together. But I'm talking though my hat since I'm not a home-theatre guy at all. Two-channel deep listening is all I do. And the L7s are superb for that. Really!

I also am indebted to TiDome for convincing me to leap 20yrs ahead from my L100A to L5 last fall, but at the same time took the L7 cautions (stating that the "L5 would easily best the L7 in most installations") very much to heart in my decision to buy L5s from cross country, while passing up numerous opportunities at local pairs, minus the $150 in shipping the L5 cost me.

Since you purchased both and have stated on multiple occasions how inferior the 5s are to the 7s, while I've enjoyed the L5s a great deal, especially since buying the AVR354 last month, I continue to feel regret for not spending my cash on the true "grown up of the family" to use your words. I long to know the superior impact of the 12" LF, as the L5 while nicely balanced, are IMO lacking the same depth of the LF 12" on the L100A

It seems with the new economy, there are far fewer people offloading their vintage gear, and the L7 citings have completely evaporated...however, with Ti's statement that his "BIG arrival" will force a deluge of LHF sales, I fully plan to attempt the 40mile trek up his way to buy a pair of his well cared for L7s, while he can take comfort in knowing the buyer will fully appreciate their place in the legacy;)

[BMWCCA]

It seems with the new economy, there are far fewer people offloading their vintage gear, and the L7 citings have completely evaporated...Or maybe they figured out what the LE120H-1's sell for by themselves, or the 035tiA.

If you can talk T-dome out of one of his pair, just remember they like power—the more the merrier.

[Titanium Dome]

Gents, there's gold in them thar hills! (And I'll probably have to let a pair of L7s go. Stay tuned.)

[JBLAddict]

Or maybe they figured out what the LE120H-1's sell for by themselves, or the 035tiA.

If you can talk T-dome out of one of his pair, just remember they like power—the more the merrier.

great point, the complete L7 citings have certainly been replaced by a sudden burst of L7 cabinets and Lseries components on the bay; the math just makes sense I guess, but there's something so wrong about seeing those empty cabinet pix with a sub $100 price tag (and the mids going for $25ea BIN)

well, you and he both talked me into a Soundcraftsmen A400 attempt, but I lost a bid last week on superclean looking unit right here in town off the 'bay... the 75W on my HK avr sounds really nice on the L5s up to a point, but I was seriously looking forward to plugging that A400 to the preouts and seeing what I'm missing....

While we're on topic, can you motivate me a little with a 1-10 scale rating comparison of the L5 to the L7.......I'm starting to have dreams of the L7s up front with the L5s to rear in the HT setup.....(I attempted unsuccessfuly to grab some L1s for the rears, but in retrospect I've probably been thinking too small)

[BMWCCA]

While we're on topic, can you motivate me a little with a 1-10 scale rating comparison of the L5 to the L7.......I'm starting to have dreams of the L7s up front with the L5s to rear in the HT setup.....(I attempted unsuccessfuly to grab some L1s for the rears, but in retrospect I've probably been thinking too small)Again, I'm not a home-theatre guy. Opimax has set-up a similar arrangement for his brother, I believe. Maybe he can give you an idea. Since most HT systems use subs, there may not be that big a difference between the L5 or L7 used as fronts. I wouldn't know. For two-channel listening, I'd have once given the L5s a strong 9 compared to my 4412As. I found them equal to my long-beloved 030s and with a similar frequency range. But then I put the L7s in the same room. Suffice it to say I simply never listen to the L5s anymore. The sit right next to the L7s, hooked to their own Crown PS-400. All I have to do is turn the amp on to compare them. I do it occasionally but the only purpose it serves is to convince me of how superior the L7s are.

To put it another way; I recently bought a second pair of L7s because the price was right. I have no current use for them. I've passed on similarly priced L5's even closer to home. :dont-know

[Slare]

I really like the L1's in terms of a 2-way bookshelf for ht use and consider it to be a very nice 2-way bookshelf overall.

I also had a pair of L20t3's and while they of course are using essentially identical tweeters, the volume and bass output capability of the L1's was quite a bit better in my opinion.

My point here is that if you can grab L1's for a good price don't underestimate them. With a typical subwoofer / lfe arrangement they serve in surround duty quite well. Worst case you have them for backs if 6.1/7.1 ever really takes off.

[opimax]

my opinion is not a strong one as I don't hear the system too much and when I do it isn't used for what it could do.

With a good sounding sub I would think the the 5s are easier to deal with. If you don't want to use a sub for 2 channel I would go with the 7. I am always impressed with the sound of his 5.1 with my old Sony 2es amp (5x 100) and a mirage 250 watt sub, "smooth" comes to mind. the 7 mids and tweet face a little higher, better for standing then listening compared to the 5's.

What I do feel strongly about is the price paid for either system is one of the better deals out there for a quality sound.

If I has to do again and I would for for all 5s. either 7.1 or 5.1 (and have a spare speaker!) Then spend the money saved on a nice sub with many adjustments velodyne DD series or add a Velodyne SMS1 to something else of your choice. And of course quality over kill electronics (either series can handle large power)

Mark

[evans224]

I prefer the upper midrange of the L5's over the L100t's and when coupled with subs the benefit of the stronger low end of the L100t's is less of a factor. If I was dealing with a pure 2.0 setup the L100t's with a standalone amp would probably get my nod.I have been trying to get my L100T's to sound right since I bought them cheap a few months ago. I even had the crossovers modified to L100T3 specs, and they now are .......different than before. This made the upper midrange really come forward, and that seems to have given more definition to the low end. I moved them out of an awful room for listening, and that helped tremendously. They are in and out of the rotation with 4410's in my 2 channel set up, and as my HT mains. I also use L1's as rears. I have heard the L5, and I much prefer it over the L100T

[JBLAddict]

my opinion is not a strong one as I don't hear the system too much and when I do it isn't used for what it could do.

With a good sounding sub I would think the the 5s are easier to deal with. If you don't want to use a sub for 2 channel I would go with the 7. I am always impressed with the sound of his 5.1 with my old Sony 2es amp (5x 100) and a mirage 250 watt sub, "smooth" comes to mind. the 7 mids and tweet face a little higher, better for standing then listening compared to the 5's.

What I do feel strongly about is the price paid for either system is one of the better deals out there for a quality sound.

If I has to do again and I would for for all 5s. either 7.1 or 5.1 (and have a spare speaker!) Then spend the money saved on a nice sub with many adjustments velodyne DD series or add a Velodyne SMS1 to something else of your choice. And of course quality over kill electronics (either series can handle large power)

Mark

Well, I now own that L7/L5 home theatre as of Sunday night, and it's in a word....awesome. The room is mid-size, the L7s are flanking a low-rise flat screen/component table, one L7 is wedged between the wall and TV table against all recommendations, yet still the bass response it tight, articulate, authoritative, and so on.

I credit a great deal to the HK AVR345 which has a very conservative 75WPC and superb musical balance. A sub is completely unecessary IMO. On pure 2 channel listening, I now understand all the claims of the superiority of the 7 over 5. Though the 5 is still a very very good speaker, the LF impact of the L7 and better separation and soundstage of the MF/HF make it pure joy to listen to....I simply find it hard to imagine how much better it really could get with this speaker, or any other, even with all the bi-amping, ideal room setup, etc the L7 supplement recommends(though at some point I plan to find out). Factor in the current price point and there's no way anything out there could possibly touch these towers, incredible.

[BMWCCA]

Well, I now own that L7/L5 home theatre as of Sunday night, and it's in a word....awesome.
. . .
Though the 5 is still a very very good speaker, the LF impact of the L7 and better separation and soundstage of the MF/HF make it pure joy to listen to....I simply find it hard to imagine how much better it really could get with this speaker, or any other . . . Factor in the current price point and there's no way anything out there could possibly touch these towers, incredible.Another convert. Pretty damn amazing, isn't it? :applaud:

Aw, go ahead; give 'em 200-watts to play with!

[JBLAddict]

Another convert. Pretty damn amazing, isn't it? :applaud:

Aw, go ahead; give 'em 200-watts to play with!

I'm scanning the ads for the next soundcraftsmen I can find;)

The L7 supplement makes a strong case just for bi-wiring (skin effect, modulation etc), have you considered this very quick and cheap option just to see if theres's something to it? (I don't recall TiDome mentioning anything other than running a true bi-amp in the Lseries thread)

[BMWCCA]

I'm scanning the ads for the next soundcraftsmen I can find;)

The L7 supplement makes a strong case just for bi-wiring (skin effect, modulation etc), have you considered this very quick and cheap option just to see if theres's something to it? (I don't recall TiDome mentioning anything other than running a true bi-amp in the Lseries thread)To tell you the truth, I think they sound better with the Crown PS-400 than they do with the Soundcraftsmen Pro-Power-Four. And Crown's still around (and part of harman, at least for now). The philosophy around bi-wiring makes about as much sense to me as any other snake oil. Skin effect makes me leary. I was going to try the two-amp bi-wire (which is NOT a true bi-amp mode unless you go inside and move the jumper wire) but never got around to it. The PS-400 sounds just fine. But you go ahead with the bi-wire and tell me what you think. :D

[Titanium Dome]

The 035TiA and 704G are better elevated on the L7; the L5 is a bit too short (more of that "uphill climb") and its mid-bass driver is off the main baffle on top of the woofer. All of this is better executed on the L7.

[Titanium Dome]

I was going to try the two-amp bi-wire (which is NOT a true bi-amp mode unless you go inside and move the jumper wire) but never got around to it. The PS-400 sounds just fine. But you go ahead with the bi-wire and tell me what you think. :D

My original pair of L7s was bi-wired in the ABC Warehouse where I first head them. They sounded good, but they weren't really set up according to the JBL L7 supplement's standards. The sales guy was able to do a passive bi-amp on them, and it was notably better sounding, but it had a lot to do with increased headroom, power, and dynamic range.

I have never done an active bi-amp on them and never felt the need to, as it seemed a useless employment of an external crossover

For the sake of clarity when I write on the L7:

bi-wire = one amp, two pairs of wires, straps removed, internal crossovers
passive bi-amp = two amps, two pairs of wires, straps removed, internal crossovers
active bi-amp = two amps, two pairs of wires, straps removed, internal LF crossover disconnected, active external crossover dividing HF/LF, internal HF crossover still in line

BMWCCA and I both like Soundcraftsmen; one of us likes Crown. :p

[JBLAddict]

I have never done an active bi-amp on them and never felt the need to, as it seemed a useless employment of an external crossover


the L7 Supplement makes it pretty clear with, "While we don't discourage bi-amplification, we hasten to note that the L7s internal crossover is difficult to improve upon. Its phase coherence, freedom from distortion and efficiency rival even the finest (and most expensive) electronic crossovers"

this tells me "don't bother with such a futile attempt, we alread perfected this in Northridge you fool" :D

however, conversely, their strong push for bi-wiring, even on a single amp, I do respect as good science, considering the source....unless you believe JBL was just trying to keep up with the "audiophile" trend of aftermarket modifications, but something tells me they were speaking from empirical evidence....I'll add two more wires to my single amp and let you know my impressions

[Titanium Dome]

We had a nice discussion here

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=4387&highlight=bi-wire

four years ago. Earl K in particular was a source of intersting inquiry.