caps are they really that important

[dino]

I want to see if I am missing out on somethig. I just has a set of speakers built I think they sound awesome I am quite please with the results. but now I am thinking is this real can my speakers sound even better than they sound now! or is this for the the elite hearing folks . Is it worth buying a better grade of caps and if this is true how much is to much.

[Robh3606]

Do a search on Capacitors and Charge Coupled and Bypass Capacitors. There are several threads that talk about Capacitors

Rob:)

[rdgrimes]

If the caps are old, yes they should be replaced. As they age their performance changes a lot. As to whether one type cap is better than another is a different question.

[4313B]

Another capacitor thread...

Go Active and never worry about this topic again ok? Just buy yourself a really nice sound card and some good digital filter software and run your whole Audio system from your PC. Store all your music on hard drives and make regular backups and be done with the legacy nonsense.

[dino]

Another capacitor thread...

Go Active and never worry about this topic again ok? Just buy yourself a really nice sound card and some good digital filter software and run your whole Audio system from your PC. Store all your music on hard drives and make regular backups and be done with the legacy nonsense.
LOL yep another caps thread ! I am guilty for not reading the other previous post on caps and this becuse lack of knowledge on my part but I am growing so if u dont mind feed me food for thought :)

[hjames]

LOL yep another caps thread ! I am guilty for not reading the other previous post on caps and this becuse lack of knowledge on my part but I am growing so if u dont mind feed me food for thought :)

Try SEARCH - Use the force, Luke ...:applaud:

Search under CAPS -
you can find much food to feed upon ...
take a few days, read some of the long threads there,
you don't need instant replies of no real depth,
you want the older, researched and well thought out responses ...

This place is huge - don't ask to be spoon-fed - DIG!

[Paul D]

Dino,
If you want to get a noticable improvement from your 4345's, try biamping them. That 2245 can take power away from the other drivers especially at high power levels. Giving them their own amp will make more of a difference than changing caps IMO. I did this with a set of L300's and noticed a big difference. The best thing to do would be to cross the whole system over electronically but it can get costly, also tricky to get rid of ground loop and other noises. It also gives you more flexibility with trying different amps - for example - hi current amp for the bass, tube amp for the highs - etc.:blah:

It sometimes supprises me when these hi end guys spend tons of money on systems and never consider biamping.:banghead:

[invstbiker]

I want to see if I am missing out on somethig. I just has a set of speakers built I think they sound awesome I am quite please with the results. but now I am thinking is this real can my speakers sound even better than they sound now! or is this for the the elite hearing folks . Is it worth buying a better grade of caps and if this is true how much is to much.

Good grammar and spelling is where I would start.

[cooky1257]

Good grammar and spelling is where I would start.

'are' not 'is' :applaud::applaud::applaud::applaud:

[Ian Mackenzie]

I want to see if I am missing out on somethig. I just has a set of speakers built I think they sound awesome I am quite please with the results. but now I am thinking is this real can my speakers sound even better than they sound now! or is this for the the elite hearing folks . Is it worth buying a better grade of caps and if this is true how much is to much.

There is no such thing as good American english.

I would cool your heals and not worry about it right now.

These guys egg everyone about capacitors and only a handful have ever heard a 4345 stock or otherwise let alone a broad spectrum of capacitors in this particular system.

If you like the result you are getting right now you are doing better than most diy people particulary with the variations to the design you have made. As they say if it ain't broke don't fix it..sometimes trying to make things better shows up the worts and all and it becomes a never ending saga while your play list grows shorter and shorter.

[dino]

There is no such thing as good American english.

I would cool your heals and not worry about it right now.

These guys egg everyone about capacitors and only a handful have ever heard a 4345 stock or otherwise let alone a broad spectrum of capacitors in this particular system.

If you like the result you are getting right now you are doing better than most diy people particulary with the variations to the design you have made. As they say if it ain't broke don't fix it..sometimes trying to make things better shows up the worts and all and it becomes a never ending saga while your play list grows shorter and shorter. thanks. :)

[Wonderboy]

I wanted to point out that the humblehifi.com site was not the site I suggested Dino check out just in case there was some confusion there. If anyone wants to check out the MCaps check out www.audiyo.com (http://www.audiyo.com). On their home page they show the most expensive caps, if you click on 'products' at the top of the page it will bring you to less expensive MCaps etc.

Hey Dino,
If you are like me, you will not be happy until you try out some expensive caps for yourself, me I would always be wondering (excuse the pun 'wonderboy') if they could sound better. If it means that much to you and you can afford it, why not buy the caps needed for the mid/high range for one speaker only and give them an A/B comparison? My "highend" friend swears by them, he replaced all the caps on his speakers and he says "it's a night and day difference" and his system does sound good.

I agree with Paul D, bi-amping makes a huge difference, a good solid state amp for the woofers and maybe a tube or a good sounding solid state amp on the mids/highs. I was not much of a believer on some of the things I read about amps, how one could sound better than another by a large margin untill I did a little experiment with amps at my place. I had my speakers bi-amped, a Bryston 4B-ST on the bass and a Monarchy SM-70 for the mids/highs, I switched them around and put the Bryston onto the mids/highs and man, what a difference, the sound was terrible, the Bryston is definetly a bass amp all the way. The Monarchy mono blocks rule for mids and highs, well on my system anyhow.

Kevin:)

[dino]

I wanted to point out that the humblehifi.com site was not the site I suggested Dino check out just in case there was some confusion there. If anyone wants to check out the MCaps check out www.audiyo.com (http://www.audiyo.com). On their home page they show the most expensive caps, if you click on 'products' at the top of the page it will bring you to less expensive MCaps etc.

Hey Dino,
If you are like me, you will not be happy until you try out some expensive caps for yourself, me I would always be wondering (excuse the pun 'wonderboy') if they could sound better. If it means that much to you and you can afford it, why not buy the caps needed for the mid/high range for one speaker only and give them an A/B comparison? My "highend" friend swears by them, he replaced all the caps on his speakers and he says "it's a night and day difference" and his system does sound good.

I agree with Paul D, bi-amping makes a huge difference, a good solid state amp for the woofers and maybe a tube or a good sounding solid state amp on the mids/highs. I was not much of a believer on some of the things I read about amps, how one could sound better than another by a large margin untill I did a little experiment with amps at my place. I had my speakers bi-amped, a Bryston 4B-ST on the bass and a Monarchy SM-70 for the mids/highs, I switched them around and put the Bryston onto the mids/highs and man, what a difference, the sound was terrible, the Bryston is definetly a bass amp all the way. The Monarchy mono blocks rule for mids and highs, well on my system anyhow.

Kevin:) thanks for all your help kevin. humble hifi is a site a got from a nother friend. I went to the site that u turn me on to thanks. I am like Ian if it ant broke dont mess with it. my speaker sound great to me and also my speakers are set up for bi amp. crown k2 or crest ca-9 for lows and a tube amp for the highs. thanks for all your help

[Mr. Widget]

If you like the result you are getting right now you are doing better than most diy people...That has not been my experience. I find most DIYers love whatever they've slapped together... at first. As the new wears off they start wondering why some music doesn't sound particularly good and they start the tinkering process again... it is a cycle that repeats itself over and over. They eventually actually learn to like the sound of their system, buy a new kit or factory made system, or simply start the process over again with an entirely different approach.

As for the topic of this thread, I agree with those who have said, that since you are happy, consider yourself lucky and enjoy the music... for now at least. ;)


Widget

[Hoerninger]

... or is this for the the elite hearing folks .

Technically there can always be made some improvements or changes. Jump on it or skip it. It is your personal technical experience. (And technical devices are seldom perfect. :( )

The other thing is an improvement in your hearing. And this is a learning process where you can gain in experience as time goes by.
(And your experience will be better and better. :) )
___________
Peter

[Ian Mackenzie]

That has not been my experience. I find most DIYers love whatever they've slapped together... at first. As the new wears off they start wondering why some music doesn't sound particularly good and they start the tinkering process again... it is a cycle that repeats itself over and over. They eventually actually learn to like the sound of their system, buy a new kit or factory made system, or simply start the process over again with an entirely different approach.

As for the topic of this thread, I agree with those who have said, that since you are happy, consider yourself lucky and enjoy the music... for now at least. ;)


Widget

Widget.

I think you are talking from your own experience here.:D

[Mr. Widget]

Widget.

I think you are talking from your own experience here.:DYes and no.

In my post, I was describing my experience witnessing other DIYers... my own personal experience as a DIYer has been a bit different. I have always tried to achieve the pinnacle in audio reproduction and have generally been disappointed with my systems initially and eventually after months or years of adjustments in the networks, driver changes, cabinet changes or all of the above, I may end up with a system that I am satisfied with. When that hasn't occurred, I have repurposed the drivers or sold the systems, warts and all to others who were a bit less critical.

My current system took many turns since I started it in early 2005. I made changes in cabinet construction, driver changes and crossover tweaks... after about one and half to two years of development I ended up with a system that I have enjoyed for the last two years or so unchanged.

[Ian Mackenzie]

Thankyou for the confession




That has not been my experience. I find most DIYers love whatever they've slapped together... at first. As the new wears off they start wondering why some music doesn't sound particularly good and they start the tinkering process again... it is a cycle that repeats itself over and over. They eventually actually learn to like the sound of their system, buy a new kit or factory made system, or simply start the process over again with an entirely different approach.

As for the topic of this thread, I agree with those who have said, that since you are happy, consider yourself lucky and enjoy the music... for now at least.



In my post, I was describing my experience witnessing other DIYers... my own personal experience as a DIYer has been a bit different. I have always tried to achieve the pinnacle in audio reproduction and have generally been disappointed with my systems initially and eventually after months or years of adjustments in the networks, driver changes, cabinet changes or all of the above, I may end up with a system that I am satisfied with. When that hasn't occurred, I have repurposed the drivers or sold the systems, warts and all to others who were a bit less critical.


My current system took many turns since I started it in early 2005. I made changes in cabinet construction, driver changes and crossover tweaks... after about one and half to two years of development I ended up with a system that I have enjoyed for the last two years or so unchanged.


Well I guess it depends on the sample size of the diy population that you have been observing and how you qualify diy.

My take on this criteria is you have a large portion who like making diy projects and saving some money by building or assembling it themselves.

In this instance many people by kits that have been prepared by an experienced team of designers and marketed through a retail outfits like Madisound or Goldsound in the case of JBL or from a magazine like HiFi World.

Then there are those who have a loyalty to a brand and have longed for the model they could never afford so they clone a specific design based on engineers specifications.

In these two categories you find people will get a very good result if they follow the design and as a rule the design will sound and work better than a 1st take and a diy project from the ground up. This of course on the proviso that they have the technical competence to follow the engeering specifications. From my own direct observations and the number of pms I get the majority struggle without external help in this area.

Then we have people who would like to modify or try and improve a design and bring it up to date with current components or amend it with a different type of horn or other drivers.

This is a high risk area of diy audio for those who are seeking perfection and it is often were people crash and burn.

Despite the apparent simplicity of putting a different horn type a top a 4355 or a 4345 or swapping a driver and hoping for a better subjective results this often leads to initial enthusiasm followed by disappointment.

This is because the dude does not have the technical skills required to re engineer and optimise the system nor objective feedback from a another set of ears to assist with final adjsutment of the system for correct integration of the different horn or component.

Modifications in the midrange where the ear is most sensitive require not just one set of ears but a panel of experienced listeners to evaluate performance and provide feedback to the designer.

This is perhaps a key distinction from buying a commercially engineered product from the likes of JBL and trying to work up a design or modifying a design on your own. But we still see a lot of niave and in some case smug people making drastic changes to otherwise well engineered systems that work properly or claiming they have a vastly superior design. I generally find those people wear rose colored sunglasses and are really out to impress their own egos more than anything else.

Then we have people who life ambition is to build the best loudspeaker. I draw an analogue with backyard wine makes who start out with vinager and perhaps one day end up with something drinkable. The majority of their lives is spent in the wine cellar which is propably a good thing.

Finally we have the individual or puts something together on a Saturday afternoon and calls it done.

Therefore, no one is really immune from the trials and tributations of diy loudspeakers.

[Mr. Widget]

Thankyou for the confessionForgive me father for I have listened...:rotfl:


Widget

[Ian Mackenzie]

Forgive me father for I have listened...:rotfl:


Widget

Apparently............:hmm:

I trust you will enjoy my sermon.:)

Father

[pos]

So Ian, which category do you fall in as a DIY person?

[Robh3606]

Nice Post Ian

Rob:)

[cooky1257]

My old dad was just as happy up to his elbows in 2-stroke and grease as he was out on the road on his old BSA Bantam-there was something wrong if there 'wasn't' a pool of oil under the bike!
People also DIY because they like it, they enjoy it, they even enjoy getting it wrong-ie it's the journey as much as the destination that's important to them.
Lots of commercial systems have their own weaknesses too, shortcomings and technical flaws but still 'work' eg the JBL 4350, the Tannoy Monitor Gold-the 'magic' doesn't turn up on any graph this being a very subjective hobby 'n all if they get 2 years satisfaction before the doubts set in so what?.
Power to the DIY'ers of this world I say and let less judgementalism and more encouragement be the order of the day.:)

[Hoerninger]

And then there is the one who builds something which is simply not available. (This is not very often in these days and is less speaker related.)

And then there is the one who does not have the great system design but who makes different types of gear better interoperable.
____________
Peter

[Ian Mackenzie]

For the past 5 years I've been in the diy clone category. Prior to that I built a system from scratch with a lot of help. (only because I did not have the drivers or information to build a clone). Now it looks like I'm going to be wine maker but with a lot of help from up above.

[Ian Mackenzie]

As Greg wrote me when I sort advice from JBL on the 4345...."your having too much fun".

It could be said that some of JBL's most successful consumer loudspeakers come from Greg's diy ambitions.

I agree diy is where the fun is and this is why I like assisting those who are passionate about making it themselves.


Ian

(Everything you need to know about making a 4345 is is now documented thoroughly on the forums so please do not send emails to Greg.)

[4313B]

(Everything you need to know about making a 4345 is is now documented thoroughly on the forums so please do not send emails to Greg.)

I knew that would eventually start happening and talked with him about it again just last week. He said he would simply refuse to answer any of it. For years we were able to insulate him and it worked quite well.

It could be said that some of JBL's most successful consumer loudspeakers come from Greg's diy ambitions.Yep. I'd love to see you get some 1200FE's and some SAM1HF horns (without the 435AL and 045TI). Load them with the 435BE and 045BE. Use your 2245H's as subs.

[dino]

As Greg wrote me when I sort advice from JBL on the 4345...."your having too much fun".

It could be said that some of JBL's most successful consumer loudspeakers come from Greg's diy ambitions.

I agree diy is where the fun is and this is why I like assisting those who are passionate about making it themselves.


Ian

(Everything you need to know about making a 4345 is is now documented thoroughly on the forums so please do not send emails to Greg.)
I second that . I love the sound of jbl speakers ! I always wanted to build one big bad set of jbl speakers. my first project gene speakers which I got my idea from gold sound I made a lot of mistakes on my first project -cabinet size and port size. what my bigest mistake was I ask for help-info after I had finish my first project:banghead: but on the bright side I receive alot of help and input from Ian -zilch- mr widget - rob 3606- toddlin- don mascali- boputnam- speakerdave- johnaec- mike caldwell- junior jbl- I hope I didnt forget any one !. To the people names I just call out u are the reason I beleive my current project went so well- did I say they sound great.[ research ] every thing I needed was here. So to all u guys names I call out I want to say THANK U

[dino]

I second that . I love the sound of jbl speakers ! I always wanted to build one big bad set of jbl speakers. my first project gene speakers which I got my idea from gold sound I made a lot of mistakes on my first project -cabinet size and port size. what my bigest mistake was I ask for help-info after I had finish my first project:banghead: but on the bright side I receive alot of help and input from Ian -zilch- mr widget - rob 3606- toddlin- don mascali- boputnam- speakerdave- johnaec- mike caldwell- junior jbl- I hope I didnt forget any one !. To the people names I just call out u are the reason I beleive my current project went so well- did I say they sound great.[ research ] every thing I needed was here. So to all u guys names I call out I want to say THANK U
thanks

[4313B]

thanksYou're welcome. Enjoy!

[LRBacon]

I want to see if I am missing out on somethig. I just has a set of speakers built I think they sound awesome I am quite please with the results. but now I am thinking is this real can my speakers sound even better than they sound now! or is this for the the elite hearing folks . Is it worth buying a better grade of caps and if this is true how much is to much.


Hi dino,

Here a few months ago I replaced the caps in a pair of L110s with Jantzen Standard Z caps (good high quality I assumed). The original caps appeared to be in good shape with no leakage and the speakers sounded OK. After I completed one speaker I did a comparison listen with the other one with the original caps. I could hear no real audible difference between the two. I can't really say that the cash and effort spent was worth it when the original caps worked just fine.

Larry

[dino]

Hi dino,

Here a few months ago I replaced the caps in a pair of L110s with Jantzen Standard Z caps (good high quality I assumed). The original caps appeared to be in good shape with no leakage and the speakers sounded OK. After I completed one speaker I did a comparison listen with the other one with the original caps. I could hear no real audible difference between the two. I can't really say that the cash and effort spent was worth it when the original caps worked just fine.

Larry thanks larry. I am happy with the finish product. :)

[ironman]

thanks larry. I am happy with the finish product. :)

What exactly does this mean ?? The reason I ask is I had been thinking of replacing the caps on my 110s/112's. I read Larrys post and decided to leave well enough alone - then I read the above response and I'm now confused ! Dino - are you saying you changed yours and prefer new caps to the
originals ? Were yours leaking ?? Any experience you can share would be appreciated as I'm not really in a position to toss out cash on an experiment. I know its all somewhat subjective but a little more detail would help. Thanks in advance for any light you can shed on the subject !

[dino]

What exactly does this mean ?? The reason I ask is I had been thinking of replacing the caps on my 110s/112's. I read Larrys post and decided to leave well enough alone - then I read the above response and I'm now confused ! Dino - are you saying you changed yours and prefer new caps to the
originals ? Were yours leaking ?? Any experience you can share would be appreciated as I'm not really in a position to toss out cash on an experiment. I know its all somewhat subjective but a little more detail would help. Thanks in advance for any light you can shed on the subject !
hello my xover are 4 month i never change any thing. they have a lot of info on caps on this site and I spent x amount of dollars on my project so i just wanted to see if I did every thing I could do for my new babies. I am happy with my finish product I am like Ian if it ant broke dont mess with it. Ian- mr widget or zilch- or rob3606 are the people u might want to ask about your issue with caps

[ironman]

...the quick reply ! Didn't even think I'd get this quick a response ! I'm retiring very soon and will be taking a pretty substantial hit on the take home $. I will be watching the pennies and no doubt the classifieds for JB...ooops, I mean part time jobs. I want my old schools to sound their best. By the same token, I don't wish to spend unnecessarily. Yes, I'm looking to "profit" (no, not selling anything) from others experiences. I'm not cheap - just close to broke LOL ! If I should invent the better mouse trap then I'll buy new. In the meantime (and most likely) I'll be "making do".
The background to this tale is that I lost my 110's in a break-up back in 1980. I've lusted after them for years. After re-connecting with "her" recently she gave them up to me - I only inquired as to their disposition and was told "I still have them but they are shot - you can have them if you want". I jumped in my vehicle and flew 180 miles (360 round trip) to get them back. I had to re foam but that was it ! However, they did not sound as I remembered. Not that I was used to better over the years so I figured there had to be something I was overlooking. While reading through the millions of posts here I discovered the "caps" subject. I bought an old set of x-overs on the cheap (ebay) to experiment with. Then I stumbled on a few posts that seemed to be saying "don't bother". Hmmmmm. What to do ??? As far as I can tell, none of the caps are leaking. No matter though as
a very highly regarded member here stated the older caps on these units were adequate "back in the day" but much better are now available and, in fact, the subsequent models came equipped with the newer caps/upgraded x-overs. At least thats what I got from the posts. I do not understand schematics, tech. jargon etc. I hope to learn more in my retirement. In the mean time I'd like to listen to music through speakers that are tweaked to their optimum (potential) while learning more here. I do hope to upgrade my collection some day - maybe something from the 43xx line. In the meantime though, as I said...well,to be honest, looking for the "short cuts" I guess. I don't mean to offend.

[jblsound]

To improve the sound to a point of knowing its better just by listening, requires more than just replacing caps, if the original caps aren't leaking.

Either adding small (.01)polypropylene bypass caps to make the speakers more dynamic, or going the much more expensive route of building Charged-Coupled XOs. That requires using quality polypropylene caps, throughout, that are twice the size of the originals, and also twice as many, as they have to be used in series pairs.

To give a point of cost reference, for my 3-way L212s it cost me $300/pr to build C-C XOs, consisting of 3 cards for each speaker, or one for each driver.
But the resulting sound was well worth the cost.

If I were to build C-C XOs for my newer PT800s the cost would be at least $450/pr, as the caps required would be much larger than for the L212s.

[toddalin]

...adding small (.01)polypropylene bypass caps to make the speakers more dynamic...

...and is not all that expensive. Each cap on the board will receive a by-pass cap. Just place them "piggyback" on the existing caps. The Theta Audiocaps are a good choice and will set you back <$40 to do both speakers.

In my experience, these give the music a nice "edge."

http://www.parts-express.com/images/item_large/027-700_L.jpg

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=027-700