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CauYem
12-02-2008, 02:51 PM
I build this network based on the simulations on "13.5 uF" thread. I bought parts from Part Express. Each components were individually measured (using a digital Philips LCR) to make sure they are within the specs, and also recorded its ESR & Q for simulations. They are within 2% of the nominal values, some are right on (Dayton Caps). I used (2) 440uF polarized cap in series (+--+) to make a 200uF cap (actual measurement is 216.3 uF @1KHz) since (2) Dayton 100uF took half of the board area. I'll repalce it with a 200uF bipolar later.

This is my first time ever to build an audio crossover networks, even though I have build many filters & dividing networks (Multiplexers) for military & space programs (up to 5 channels/5-ways & frequency up to 34 GHz). This circuit based on the same techniques I used for communication systems, which provide a constant input impedance & steeper slope/octave with minimal components used.

All the components are standard values (1.8, 2.4, 3.3, 4.7 .. 68, 82... not odd number like "13.5 uF":)). The simulations of the circuit are on the "13.5 uF" thread along with both JBL L300 networks (regular & "charge coupled").

Each crossover took almost half of a day to build since I have to work off & on, and laid them out on the board (10" X 6" X 0.5" piece of wood) as I soldered them along. I should have measured each component dimensions then layout on CAD program so it doesn't take up a lot of area on the board. I wound the 0.068 mH myself so it doesn't look as pretty as the inductors I bought. They don't sell the 0.068mH. The network will replace the JBL network in my pseudo L300 (L200 + N8000 + 077).

I was worry & anxious before I plug it in. What happen if it doesn't work?. Then I removed the JBL LX16 & N8000, and connect all the wires, and turn on the test CD (Hary Belafonte Live in concert at the Carnegie Hall). My worry was gone when it singed beautifully. Even my wife noticed the different between the two. The mid from my network is a bit dominant, so I lowered it about 1.5 dB. Overall sound level is higher than the JBL's, I think the hi-Q components cause less loss on transmission, thus more power to the drivers.

I wish I have room to set up the RTA lab to measure the exact electrical & acoustical performance of my network even I know the performance will be very close (if not exact) as in simulation.

I own many audio systems & speakers, but never thought I would tinker with the Xover network before. I assumed that the speaker manufactures have the optimal condition for their products, and thought those DIY are kinda nuts. Until I came across these audio forums and made contact with those who like sound production like me, but has all kind of knowledge & experience with sound. Now, I officially joined the group of nuts.

I've spent sometimes to check out most of passive crossover networks from different manufactures that are on the net. JBL has the most networks posted. There are much room for improvements.

mech986
12-02-2008, 04:42 PM
Hi CauYem,

Nice job! Looks like a lot of care and effort in creating the boards, crossovers, and layout. Glad to hear it was working well from the get-go.

A few caveats for you as you get into the subjective listening and objective testing/simulation, and they apply to all DIY and engineered endeavors:

1. The DIY usually sounds good to the person who builds it, even with open mind and a lot of work beforehand. Of course, who wouldn't be a little bit proud of what they have created?

2. Even with a good RTA set up, room acoustics play a huge role in how the speaker sounds at any given point in the room. Measurement systems and methodologies also have a huge effect on what shows up on the screen or graphs so that can be a hard puzzle to solve.

Even if you are able to design with an anechoic chamber in mind and in the development process, the speaker will behave and interact differently in a room and the room furnishings and materials will have significant effects on the final sound projection.

2a. I assume all simulations are based on ideal components. Does that also assume your L200 and 077 components are all functioning perfectly to spec? That is an issue which plagues all of us - drivers are real world electromechanical devices with operational, aging, and mechanical issues which all can affect the sound. You might consider that just the loading of the woofer alone makes a difference and that some advocate plugging 1 of the two L200 ports, getting a new OEM aluminum diaphragm for the LE85 or 077, etc.

Just the joys of tinkering with JBL's!!

3. Our own ears and perception system can also be a big variable - hearing perception is not linear and many issues can develop with hearing over the years. Many of us who really like music may have damaged our hearing a bit when we were young. So sometimes some calibration or testing of our hearing can shed light into why we hear differently from others.

4. Now that you've built the system, you could investigate some other "variables" related to your crossover. Here's some to consider -

a. break-in of components - that is, do some passive parts change or sound different (better?) after they have been used for awhile and have had a chance to deal with musical signal loads.

b. You have made a bipolar cap out of two Al Electrolytics - try now subbing standard bipolar crossover cap or film caps of same value (expensive and another whole board, yes) and let us know if the sound changes. You could try the charge coupled idea at various points on your board to see if there is any change. All these points could bear some experimentation - note: study would require many many boards, attempts and more listeners to get a sufficient N number of trials so we'll use the term practical experiment, ok?

C. Interesting to note that after initial listening, you felt the sound was too mid forward and you had to dial it down 1.5 db. the room may account for that, or being more on axis, or maybe that is your hearing/music preference. You have now "voiced" your speaker. Interesting to see if you had a measurable peak in the initial response that you corrected or it was the room effects..

There's a lot of interesting stuff to discover when moving into the realm of audio, engineering, perception, and musical enjoyment, let alone the hobby/DIY fun of working with this stuff. I hope your project brings you a lot of joy and enjoyment, as well as stimulates a lot of discussion.

Congratulations on the first phase of your project and much success in the future.

Regards,

Bart

CauYem
12-02-2008, 05:36 PM
Bart,

I simulated the circuit with the measured values, which included the Q & frequency of the component to be used at. The result isn't much diffferent than the posted simulation on "13.5uF" topic when the component's error is less than 2%.

I changed only one speaker (R) to do the comparision with (L) speaker, which still has the JBL components. Then listen just one speaker at a time. I did the blind test with my wife by placing both new Xovers on top of both speakers, but only the (R) speakers is connected. Then adjust the (L) & (R) balance knob to change it left to right. Then asked her what did she hear.

My wife and I both can hear the mid (voice of Hary Belfonte) is "louder" than the low freq (compared to the (L) speaker).

I do have the RTA with the Beringer microphone at hand but I haven't go thru calibration yet, and my living isn't the room for measurement since the RTA is so sensitive. It picked up all the noise from running fan of the computer, the footstep of my kids running in the bedroom. I did some raw (uncalibrated) measurement & see the mid is about 3 dB higher than the Low freq. It concured with my hearing. I don't take these measurement as accurate as in the chamber, but give me some indications.

Another thing: my (L) speaker is about 1-2dB above the (R) speaker (with JBL networks) across the audio frequency band; so what I did was to connect a L-Pad at the front end to adjust it down to the same level of the (L) speaker to listen to compare.

I'm glad it works after the first try.

Doc Mark
12-02-2008, 09:22 PM
Hey, CauYem,

Nice job, Mate! I hope they work exactly as you expect them to do, and look forward to your report on their performance in your testing. Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

d16rr702
07-09-2011, 05:58 AM
My Dad is an EE.....I just watched, but did get to take apart the surplus radios for entertainment. I always thought the vintage circuit boards he worked on looked like futuristic cities.

Cau built one even better. Love it.

Now, can you make me a set for my L300's?