Exposing the Speaker Wire myth

[Akira]

Sometimes we like to read about things we already know...just to confirm what we already believe. Blasphemy on an 'audiophile' site but, common knowledge here.

I found this article interesting nonetheless:
Roger Russell – a former engineer and speaker designer for McIntosh Labs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McIntosh_Labs) – describes the introduction of expensive speaker wire brands, and critiques their performance in his online essay called Speaker Wire
http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm

p.s. I suppose this is a little dig at the "other half" but, I still can't figure out what audiophiles hear??

[4313B]

I still can't figure out what audiophiles hear??Stuff. They hear stuff normal people can't.

[alskinner]

The best speaker cable I have used for home use is Carol 16/4 SJ cord. I use it inside the box as twisted pairs and for connection to the amplifier. Cost is about .45 a foot. Much rather spend money on better electronics and drivers than speaker wire that I can't hear a bit of difference in.

Regards
AL

[robertbartsch]

There are a lot of scam artists around these days. High-priced speaker wire is just another sad example.

I read an article recently that said blind listener tests of attendees at a industry show "proved" high-priced wires are supieror. I suppose the "bad wire" in the test was super thin 28 gauge wire.

[Fred Sanford]

Even if you dismiss the notion that there are audible differences between differing types of brand-new cables, there's a huge spectrum of longevity among different types of cables. So, even if you believe that all wires of a certain gauge would sound alike when new, once they're aging things can certainly change.

Just for a small sampling of my background in this subject, here's a short synopsis of my history dealing with wiring day-to-day:

~1984-1986 serviced school & church sound & signalling systems ranging from the 1900s up to the 1980s, working for a company that had the service contract for the NYC Board of Education schools continuously since the 1940s. LOTS of servicing of cables & connections that failed over time, along with many instances of cabling that lasted just fine & tested within spec decades later. We're talking VERY long runs through city-block sized schools and cathedrals, buldings that often shut down their climate controls systems when not in use (if they even have them, often it was just steam heat at best).

~1986-1988 serviced, modified & installed high-end AV systems, mostly systems from the 1970s & 1980s.

~1988-1989 back at the school & church systems, re-visiting the same sites.

~1989-2000 auto & marine communications systems - here's where you REALLY see the difference in quality cabling. Many clients/fleets were repeats or corporate accounts, so many systems were removed, inspected & re-installed over the 11 years I worked there.

~2000-2007 serviced, modified & installed high-end AV & networking systems, ranging from the 1970s to current, even a number of AV systems from the previous stint of work from the late '80s.

Essentially, it makes a difference. I've sampled thousands and thousands of installations, from climate-controlled penthouse apartments to ocean-going tugboats. Some cables will survive in both, some cables will fail in both. Some, like certain hardware-store-special drop lights & extension cords I've seen employed as speaker cable, will have green & gooey conductors the day you take them home from the store & strip the "insulation" back.

je

[Mr. Widget]

...there's a huge spectrum of longevity among different types of cables. So, even if you believe that all wires of a certain gauge would sound alike, once they're aging things can certainly change.:yes:

Interesting résumé by the way. :)


Widget

[Fred Sanford]

:yes:

Interesting résumé by the way. :)


Widget

Hey, thanks! What should I do next?

je

[Fred Sanford]

One more recent situation- some old Monster speaker cables that were probably fairly pricey in their day showed an odd symptom: only one conductor in each was deteriorating. Only the side with the brand-name lettering inked on was oxidizing...very strange. Once the conductors were exposed, one side was fine and the other was greenish-black and sticky like a coating of tar. Two ~20' lengths, most likely cut from a bulk reel in the mid/late '80s or so. It's actually a good thing the jacketing was clear, if they weren't and had terminations on the ends, it might never have been visible.

I sent the cables back to Monster (lifetime warranty!) and they were awfully puzzled...seems the cable was older than any model they had records for. No explanation for how/why it happened, but they've come up with some kind of current "equivalent" replacement, and they're shipping it out to me tomorrow.

You might find the pics interesting:

[Allanvh5150]

p.s. I suppose this is a little dig at the "other half" but, I still can't figure out what audiophiles hear??

What the other half is "hearing" is the sense of well being after they have paid the maximum amout for a piece of lamp cord.:)

[Akira]

Even if you dismiss the notion that there are audible differences between differing types of brand-new cables, there's a huge spectrum of longevity among different types of cables. So, even if you believe that all wires of a certain gauge would sound alike when new, once they're aging things can certainly change.

I think we all agree on that one. But, there seems to be a huge discrepancy between 'proper' wiring and 'magic' wiring.

I do however believe in dual (4 send) wired cabling. Some say it should be braided. Perhaps someone can enlighten me on the advantages of braiding. (reduce the skin effect?)
Dual cabling is my personal equivalent to "audiophile indoctrination." I can't hear the difference between a single 12 gauge 25' run compared to the dual 12 gauge run I normally use. But this is standard practice in studio installations so I have adopted it, believing it to be pro. The cabling I use has all 4 sends in one cable marked by only two colors.

[Akira]

I inherited this cable from a 'Castle Winchester' system I bought 2 years ago. The system was sitting in a basement unused for 8 years and both sides were green. lol...I thought they were supposed to be like that...never used them.

P.S. WHILE WERE ON THE SUBJECT, IS THERE AN ADVANTAGE TO BI-WIRING?

[Allanvh5150]

I just took a look at some similar cable that I have here at it is the same lovely green colour. mm mm.

Bi wiring? Up to a point its ok if you have dinky cables but if you are using "normal" cables, i.e. something that is up to the job in the first place, all bi-wiring will do is double your cabling bill. Unless of course you have run two pairs of cable for future expansion as I have done. IMHO Bi wiring and Silver cables are better left to those people that can "hear" the difference.:)

[tom_h]

I was pretty skeptical about magic speaker wire but tried some and did hear a difference.

On wondering why, one thing came to mind. My (old) speakers were VERY inefficient (83 db) and magic wire has low overall impedance so the speaker can draw more current than with regular wires. I think the speaker load is part of the amplifier feedback circuit, so magic wire with lower inductance and capacitance may interact less with the driving end. But, I think the key idea is that inefficient speakers place a tough load on the electronics and need all the help they can get.

Since the magic wire experiment I replaced the audiophile speakers with LSR 6332s. What a difference. The much higher efficiency makes music sound very lifelike because it has better dynamic range. I used a longer run of cheapo speaker cable to get the JBLs to a place where they sounded best and these speakers seem to care less about magic wire than the audiphile ones.

As for me, I now care less about audiophile stuff. The new JBL speakers are fantastic. All my music is much more involving to listen to. I am not looking back.

[JBL 4645]

Oddly enough I’ve had some of that Tandy Realistic cable and that is cheap as biscuits and that also went green within a few years. I think I still have some in very short lengths in box. My camera doesn’t really capture too well so I’ll try and take a few picture once I dig it out of the box.

I use Gale cable and its also cheap as biscuits at around 80p per meter and that seems fine no colour degrading

Now as to how it performs really LOL. It works fine just fine I get good bass response and treble and I would gladly buy Gale again.

[4313B]

.

[scott fitlin]

.Well, ok, BUT, only if my set has ONLY the PINK anodized aluminum clamps, OK?

:rotfl:

[Ducatista47]

18 Gauge, double insulated, solderable, 200 feet. $19.98
Never turns green!

[Mr. Widget]

18 Gauge, double insulated, solderable, 200 feet. $19.98
Never turns green!
Wellllll... you can always buy green magnet wire. :rotfl:



Widget

[Mr. Widget]

.

[Ian Mackenzie]

I personally think your money is better spent on quality terminations like these.

http://www.vhaudio.com/cablepod.html

http://www.vhaudio.com/connectors-speaker.html#spade

Ask yourself why the car won't start when the battery terminals are oxidized or have poor contact area?

I prefer cables that are short and stout.

[BMWCCA]

I personally think your money is better spent on quality terminations like these.

http://www.vhaudio.com/cablepod.html

Ask yourself why the car won't start when the battery terminals are oxidized or have poor contact area?I don't disagree with your automotive analogy, and I'm no metallurgist or EE, but it would seem a conductivity rating of only 28% at speaker terminals as claimed in the link could be easily measured with a VOM. Anyone here think their stock terminals are only 25% efficient? We're not actually dealing with lead-acid wet-cell batteries stored outdoors here. Auto battery corrosion is lead sulfate. Do we dump baking soda on our speaker terminals? Should we coat them in petroleum jelly? Battery terminals not withstanding, the actual connection at an automotive starter is often a big spade connector to fire the solenoid and a copper-clad crimp-on attached with a galvanized nut and stud to the electric motor, and they seldom corrode. :D

[robertbartsch]

Fred:

So does this mean that the higher priced cabling will last longer in a HT application, for example?

What brand speaker wire do you use in your own home; why?

[Mr. Widget]

I personally think your money is better spent on quality terminations like these.
Ian, it was a joke.


Fred:

So does this mean that the higher priced cabling will last longer in a HT application, for example?

What brand speaker wire do you use in your own home; why?As a rule I dislike buying Monster Cable brand anything as I know how their marketing scheme works and how much profit is in their products... that said, on occasion I have used their 14 gauge basic speaker wire for internal hookup wire due to it's flexibility and size and I will admit the stuff does not get brittle, gooey, tarnished or oxidized in decades plus of service.


Widget

[Ducatista47]

"The large mass of metal used in many binding posts, while visually impressive, has also been shown to introduce phase errors and smearing due to skin effect - where high frequency signals travelling on the surface of the conductor are conveyed faster than low frequency signals travelling at varying depths and speeds within the metal itself. The result is quite frequently a reduction in time domain linearity and compromised sonic performance, manifesting itself as slow, bass heavy, smeared sound.


In addition, most binding posts utilize a heavy plating of gold over a nickel substrate. While lending a jewel-like appearance to the connector’s contact surface, this is often a cause of degraded sound quality as electrons flow through three dissimilar metals with differing electrical and conductive properties."


My snake oil alarm is going off. While it is likely that the lower conductance of non copper metals is a factor, how long would a binding post need to be for these velocity of transmission differences to be remotely audible? Longer than a listening room would be my guess.

And Widget, you got me. My 20 Gauge is green.

Clark

[Fred Sanford]

Quote:
Originally Posted by robertbartsch http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=225396#post225396)
Fred:

So does this mean that the higher priced cabling will last longer in a HT application, for example?

What brand speaker wire do you use in your own home; why?




As a rule I dislike buying Monster Cable brand anything as I know how their marketing scheme works and how much profit is in their products... that said, on occasion I have used their 14 gauge basic speaker wire for internal hookup wire due to it's flexibility and size and I will admit the stuff does not get brittle, gooey, tarnished or oxidized in decades plus of service.


Widget


Don't get me wrong, I don't generally push what folks would consider "higher-price" cable. I'm a LOUSY salesman in that regard. I personally don't pursue wringing the very last little bits of quality out of my systems- what I do is demand strong links in the chain. None of the systems I own or work on are simple- they're actually almost always blindingly complex. I want high quality throughout, but I demand reliability (connectors are the key there, really). I know there's a difference among cables from experience, and I think there's a middle ground where most folks can be happy. I also know there are people that pursue that last little bit of quality, and understand that any system is a sum of its parts, and go to great lengths to find what works well together for them. More power to them, I love listening to systems like that.

My main problems with Monster have been when they've beefed up the cables to absurd proportions, and the connections don't even stay in- this has been mostly S-Video and HDMI. Keep in mind that I've NEVER paid retail for a Monster product, and really don't come in contact with their marketing, either. I did have tons of problems with some of their power conditioning products, sending back literally pallets full of defectives at one time.

Almost all of the speaker cables in my house/studio/PA are home-made, often from the leftover of the cabling I've used for installations (twisted pairs, tough jackets for in-wall installations). Belden, West Penn, Liberty, Gepco and occasionally even Monster. Nothing terribly pretty or fancy, actually. Exceptions would be cables I've removed from some old installations: two 3 meter Synergistic Research Signature No. 2 Double Bi-wire cables, some Apature cables, and a bunch of various Monster.

Signal cables for home AV are generally either Straight Wire or home-made from Liberty/Belden/Gepco/etc., while PA and studio cabling is almost all home-made from Belden cable & Switchcraft connectors with some Hosa/Whirlwind/ProCo. Exceptions are some I made from Canare, Gepco or Mogami cables, and various other connector brands I've ended up with.

I guess the sum of it is that "cheap" or "bulk" cable might sound fine to you at first, but there's often a reason that they're "cheap" or sold off at discount. Point # 2 would be that using good connectors and keeping them clean is actually equally important in the long run, maybe even more so than the cabling...but that's another thread entirely. ;)

je

[SEAWOLF97]

I was in the audio bazaar in Saigon picking up banana plugs...they had Monster brand, it was right next to a Chinese branded set that looked identical (except for the name) ,,sure seemed as if they may have come from the same factory...but the Monsters were priced 4X higher (and this was wholesale)...guess which I bought ?

[JBL 4645]

.

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=34880&stc=1&d=1225082978

:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

Now that is too funny who dares me to try it. How much is pair of these jump-start-lead or jump-start-cables to get your JBL riving up again!:D

[Hoerninger]

:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

Now that is too funny who dares me to try it.
:D
It is just up to you!
I am still misssing a reliable test with replicable results without queasy phrases. Some time ago a guy was ducking here (?,sich drücken). Or he even did not understand what I have meant.
___________
Peter

[scott fitlin]

Don't get me wrong, I don't generally push what folks would consider "higher-price" cable. I'm a LOUSY salesman in that regard. I personally don't pursue wringing the very last little bits of quality out of my systems- what I do is demand strong links in the chain. None of the systems I own or work on are simple- they're actually almost always blindingly complex. I want high quality throughout, but I demand reliability (connectors are the key there, really). I know there's a difference among cables from experience, and I think there's a middle ground where most folks can be happy. I also know there are people that pursue that last little bit of quality, and understand that any system is a sum of its parts, and go to great lengths to find what works well together for them. More power to them, I love listening to systems like that.

My main problems with Monster have been when they've beefed up the cables to absurd proportions, and the connections don't even stay in- this has been mostly S-Video and HDMI. Keep in mind that I've NEVER paid retail for a Monster product, and really don't come in contact with their marketing, either. I did have tons of problems with some of their power conditioning products, sending back literally pallets full of defectives at one time.

Almost all of the speaker cables in my house/studio/PA are home-made, often from the leftover of the cabling I've used for installations (twisted pairs, tough jackets for in-wall installations). Belden, West Penn, Liberty, Gepco and occasionally even Monster. Nothing terribly pretty or fancy, actually. Exceptions would be cables I've removed from some old installations: two 3 meter Synergistic Research Signature No. 2 Double Bi-wire cables, some Apature cables, and a bunch of various Monster.

Signal cables for home AV are generally either Straight Wire or home-made from Liberty/Belden/Gepco/etc., while PA and studio cabling is almost all home-made from Belden cable & Switchcraft connectors with some Hosa/Whirlwind/ProCo. Exceptions are some I made from Canare, Gepco or Mogami cables, and various other connector brands I've ended up with.

I guess the sum of it is that "cheap" or "bulk" cable might sound fine to you at first, but there's often a reason that they're "cheap" or sold off at discount. Point # 2 would be that using good connectors and keeping them clean is actually equally important in the long run, maybe even more so than the cabling...but that's another thread entirely. ;)

jeFred, I REALLY agree, for me, the thing that goes wrong with many cables is the termination between the wire and the connector, EVEN in HIGH PRICED NAME BRAND CABLES!

I agree about Belden and West Penn, and I agree, IT HAS TO BE RELIABLE, sometimes HOW ITS MADE outdoes WHAT ITS MADE FROM!

I also want to touch on something NOT many seem to talk about much anymore, ANNUAL CLEANING OF CONTACTS, Posts, CONNECTORS, and BARE WIRE ENDS!

IMHO, at least an annual once a year cleaning of electrical audio connections is a neccesary practice.

And can be done inexpensively, some cotton swabs, I like the Q Tip style cleaners on long wood sticks, and Pipe Cleaners to get into the holes of spring loaded terminals, an eraser, a small cloth, a bottle of Isopropyl alcohol, a spray or liquid contact cleaner, and NONE of these has to be anything more than whats available at your local 5 and 10, hardware, electrical, and local tobacco shop that has good pipe cleaners.

And theres NO HOODOO, VOODOO, LOOK AT WHAT I DO about this!

It's just routine maintenance!

[Ian Mackenzie]

Yep,

There and is no such thing as a tight connection to a box that generates vibrations unless some care it taken.

[AltecLansingFan]

TIP: Take 2 sets of jump-start-cables
Smear 1 set in with baby oil, and powder it afterwards with tallow powder, after that minimum 10 hours in the freezer, when they are deep frozen you can connect the frozen cables and they are ready to produce a super sound, your can’t believe what you hear.
During the time that you are listening to the first set you can do same with set 2, so you always have a workable set speaker cables.
Just a ..:cool:.. tip

[Ian Mackenzie]

Hi Clark,

Remember when we re built your 3145 networks.

I did a blind test with a friend and inserted cheap crocodile leads between the output terminal posts and the cables with female spades to the drivers of the modified networks. The is little more then creating a termination but not a good one apparently.

With the cheap crocodile leads in the circuit there was an oberved loss of resolution. We oberved similar changes when I bypassed the biamp switch and installed new binding posts.

The only reason for mentioning this is that we see ocassionally people write and ask what cables do I use with my 4343-4344-4345?

[JBL 4645]

It is just up to you!
I am still misssing a reliable test with replicable results without queasy phrases. Some time ago a guy was ducking here (?,sich drücken). Or he even did not understand what I have meant.
___________
Peter

I think that one flew under the radar with me mate.

What do the music studios and film dubbing stages use what cable is the sound system outfitted with?

I think the answer for cables should be (no comment) (its loudspeaker cable politics).:D

Another thing that that just sprang to mind is what does JBL recommend and why doesn’t JBL make there own cable for JBL loudspeakers?

[Ian Mackenzie]

They do....in Japan

[BMWCCA]

They do....in Japan
Makes sense:
JBL is an American-Japanese audio electronics company currently owned by Harman International. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JBL

[SEAWOLF97]

Makes sense: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JBL

from that same wiki article "and the flagship L-250ti." ....no such animal, :(

does not really go into the Japanese connection..

[AltecLansingFan]

I think that one flew under the radar with me mate.

What do the music studios and film dubbing stages use what cable is the sound system outfitted with?

I think the answer for cables should be (no comment) (its loudspeaker cable politics).:D

Another thing that that just sprang to mind is what does JBL recommend and why doesn’t JBL make there own cable for JBL loudspeakers?


Most copper mines are owned by the big telecom company's today, so I don't think they can find the right copper mines where you can find the right copper to produce loudspeaker cables.
I don't know when, but I think I come by, just to drink a beer (Heineken??) :dont-know

[BMWCCA]

does not really go into the Japanese connection..No, but it does make that statement. Even if it's not fact, it's obviously someone's perception.

[Ducatista47]

Hi Clark,

Remember when we re built your 3145 networks.

I did a blind test with a friend and inserted cheap crocodile leads between the output terminal posts and the cables with female spades to the drivers of the modified networks. The is little more then creating a termination but not a good one apparently.

With the cheap crocodile leads in the circuit there was an oberved loss of resolution. We oberved similar changes when I bypassed the biamp switch and installed new binding posts.

The only reason for mentioning this is that we see ocassionally people write and ask what cables do I use with my 4343-4344-4345?
The further one gets from a well soldered connection, the worse it will be. When I built a set of speakers and a quasi crossover (actually a notch filter and a high pass) earlier this year, I put magnet wire directly into the amp's output posts. The hot sides were soldered directly to the inputs of the network, the grounds clamped directly to the outside of the speaker binding posts. From there the tweeter grounds went to the solder lugs of the tweeters. The network outputs went to the hot binding posts on the speaker cabinets, and directly to the hot lugs of the tweeters. Inside the cabinets the binder posts were soldered to more magnet wire which went to the ground lugs and to the zobel/hot lugs of the woofers. This makes sense if you know that the tweeters are mounted externally, in front of the full range woofers.

Bottom line, a single pair of binding posts in each speaker, absolutely no terminations and solder everywhere but the amp binding posts and the outside of the speaker binding posts. Once the installation is finalized - if that ever happens - I may solder the magnet wire directly to the binding posts of the amp and the outside of the speakers.

Since I was building everything from scratch, I could not see the point of having in and out binding posts on the externally situated network (what everyone else was doing). The grounds went from in posts to out posts and were unnecessary to the function of the network, so I eliminated the whole ground circuit there and went directly to the speakers.

Clark

[scott fitlin]

Thats an interesting point, Clark. Must have soldered connection. And I don't doubt what your saying, I believe in a GOOD solder joint, for reliability and durability.

Yet, other companies speak about gas tight crimps superiority sonically, but I don't know, I have had crimped, no solder, connectors fail. And we aren't talking ten years later, 3 months, 2 months, whatever. What good is any percieved benefit, if the reliabilty/durability isn't there?

And I laugh when some try to tell me of solders non conductivity, well, I say, if 60/40 lead/tin isn't good for you, THERE are solders with silver content, and enough so that the solder is IN FACT, conductive!

[BMWCCA]

Yet, other companies speak about gas tight crimps superiority sonically, but I don't know, Soundcrafsmen used to swear by wire-wrap connections; no solder, no crimping. Supposedly NASA or aircraft technology. I don't know if they kept that up until the bitter end, or not. I'll have to pull one apart and look.

[Ducatista47]

Thats an interesting point, Clark. Must have soldered connection. And I don't doubt what your saying, I believe in a GOOD solder joint, for reliability and durability.

...And I laugh when some try to tell me of solders non conductivity, well, I say, if 60/40 lead/tin isn't good for you, THERE are solders with silver content, and enough so that the solder is IN FACT, conductive!

My thinking was to revisit the basics of creating an electronics solder joint. My late father, a Shure Brothers engineer, taught his little boy well. First, make a good mechanical connection. This includes wrapping wire around the inside pin of a binding post, and mechanically joining wires. Then, apply the solder to the joint. Notice, to the existing joint, which is copper to copper. In such a solder joint the conductivity of the solder in not very relevant.

Clark

[scott fitlin]

Soundcrafsmen used to swear by wire-wrap connections; no solder, no crimping. Supposedly NASA or aircraft technology. I don't know if they kept that up until the bitter end, or not. I'll have to pull one apart and look.I had some cable with GAS TIGHT Crimps, and the same cable with soldered and crimped termination, IF there is a difference, I didn't hear it, and I even have crimped DC power wire connections in my bumper cars, HEAVY DUTY 8Ga lugs, and A CRIMPER FROM HELL!

Now, I can hear differences between various wires, types, and connectors, that I don't always like what I hear, well, that may be just MY preference, OR may be the fact that a particular cable isnt a good match in MY signal chain, with the components that I have.

Because I have heard some cables, in stereo systems for home use, that I found DID make a positive difference, because we tried this against that!

And yet, that same interconnect in MY system sounded TOO bright to me.

So, there may be something to it, afterall, and maybe I havent found the ONE that WORKS for me.

OTOH, I'll pay MONEY for someone to make my interconnects, using West Penn, or Belden and Switchcraft connectors is fine with me, WELL MADE PROFESSIONAL ASSEMBLY, thats IMPORTANT TO ME!

However, I still SWEAR by one particular old adage, " The SPEAKERS are THE MOST IMPORTANT PART OF HOW YOUR SYSTEM SOUNDS!

I profess to LOVE the COSMETIC look of some of the AUDIOQUEST interconnects, I don't know if they will make my system sound different, the same, better, or worse, BUT, I DO love how they look.

And i also would read Steve Schells posts about magnet wire, and how fast things sounded compared to heavier ga of cable, and I don't doubt, as being a HORN speaker guy all my life, Horns, to me, have always let me hear the smallest of things as well as the SUPER LARGE SCALE dynamics.

My adage is, IF U HEAR A POSITIVE DIFFERENCE, and U like it, DO WHAT WORKS FOR YOU!

I might also look to try some Mogami this year, that comes recommended to me by several, and several whose comments I trust.

I READ, sometimes I think I READ TOO MUCH, but, I ain't sold on the solderless termination.

[scott fitlin]

My thinking was to revisit the basics of creating an electronics solder joint. My late father,a Shure Brothers engineer, taught his little boy well. First, make a good mechanical connection. This includes wrapping wire around the inside pin of a binding post, and mechanically joining wires. Then, apply the solder to the joint. Notice, to the existing joint, which is copper to copper. In such a solder joint the conductivity of the solder in not very relevant.

Clark
WOW, Shure Bros, when they were Shure Bos!

We used to use Shure cartidges, they had a nightclub cartridge and two different styli available, we found them very Superior to the stanton disco cartridges.

Still use Shure mics.

In the 80,s, the V15 Type V, that was MY fav home cartridge, the delicate top end that it had.

And I remember when the NEW Shure re-issued the V15, oh, and I ran out and bought, and OH, it wasnt Shure as I HAD known Shure!

Wow, Clark, small world!

[Allanvh5150]

Soundcrafsmen used to swear by wire-wrap connections; no solder, no crimping. Supposedly NASA or aircraft technology. I don't know if they kept that up until the bitter end, or not. I'll have to pull one apart and look.

Crimps are very good but only on big cables like 50mm2 and up. If you do one of these with the proper crimping device and the cut it appart with a hacksaw, you will find that the single strandes have merged into on solid lump. Bigger cable 150mm2 and above are crimped with a hydraulic crimper and the joins are phenominal. Wire wrap is good for a short while but the oxidation and vibration take thier toll, solder them as well and they are great. Older works perfectly fine for anything in the speaker department. Every other joint in your system is done with lead/tin/silver.:)

[JBL 4645]

Most copper mines are owned by the big telecom company's today, so I don't think they can find the right copper mines where you can find the right copper to produce loudspeaker cables.
I don't know when, but I think I come by, just to drink a beer (Heineken??) :dont-know

Oh, that’s interesting owned by telephone company’s I wonder if British telecom as part in this? I thought all telecommunications company’s where using fibre optics.

I think it down to pot luck with what cable you buy.

[hjames]

Oh, that’s interesting owned by telephone company’s I wonder if British telecom as part in this? I thought all telecommunications company’s where using fibre optics.

I think it down to pot luck with what cable you buy.
Copper was the backbone of the telco industry for many years.
Even today, there is still a lot of copper in place ...

[scott fitlin]

Copper was the backbone of the telco industry for many years.
Even today, there is still a lot of copper in place ...Truth be told.

When the telephone companies have to do repairs in their lines in an area hat has yet to be updated for Fiber optics, and other modern methods of transmision, YES they still use copper, and YEs theres still TONS of it buried and overhead in NYC!

And in places like NYC as MODERN as some areas are, is as 1950,s as some as of yet UN UPDATED areas still are.

Take Coney Island, where my business is, I have verizon DSL, and this summer I wanted to upgrade to HIGH SPEED INTERNET ACCESS, or FIOS, that FIOS looks good. I do that much downloading, that speed has become a factor to me. It wasn't at the beginning, but now it has, as my needs and use have grown.

It just isnt available in this area yet, sooner or later, Verizon WILL get there, and WHY they haven't yet, I don't know.

But, oh yeah, they sill use PLENTY of copper.

[Fred Sanford]

Here goes, some karma biting me in the ass- I'm setting up & tweaking for the L7/4333A comparo mentioned in another thread here, so of course now I hear some weirdness from one of my 2231As.

Quick check of the cables- doesn't seem to be the cables.

Pull the driver- not the driver. Whew!

Futz with the crossover pots- not the pots.

Swap amp channels- not the amp.

Check the cables again...there it is. The I/O jacks on the crossover for that channel...open up the crossover (Ashly from the '80s) and see that they had lined the top & bottom plates with thin foam, presumably to soften things for the circuit board when bounced around on the road. Did I say foam? It wasn't really still foam. And it was in/on/around/between/among ALL of the jacks.

*sigh* :o:

Gotta love the vintage stuff, huh?

je

[scott fitlin]

Here goes, some karma biting me in the ass- I'm setting up & tweaking for the L7/4333A comparo mentioned in another thread here, so of course now I hear some weirdness from one of my 2231As.

Quick check of the cables- doesn't seem to be the cables.

Pull the driver- not the driver. Whew!

Futz with the crossover pots- not the pots.

Swap amp channels- not the amp.

Check the cables again...there it is. The I/O jacks on the crossover for that channel...open up the crossover (Ashly from the '80s) and see that they had lined the top & bottom plates with thin foam, presumably to soften things for the circuit board when bounced around on the road. Did I say foam? It wasn't really still foam. And it was in/on/around/between/among ALL of the jacks.

*sigh* :o:

Gotta love the vintage stuff, huh?

jeWell, thats an easy fix, although, might be tedious! Gotta be glad for that.

In some ways, ways exactly like the one your describing, and WORSE, Im not missing moving out of my vintage days!

:D

[BMWCCA]

Did I say foam? It wasn't really still foam. And it was in/on/around/between/among ALL of the jacks.

*sigh* :o:

Gotta love the vintage stuff, huh?I have a 1964 BMW convertible. Back then they used a thin layer of foam-rubber covered with a vinyl sheet to make the dash padded for USA. They also used a foam inside the glove-box door to keep the rattling down. After forty years that stuff now blows around all over the place and gets into my eyes. It's nasty. I've had a few rare (BMW System 1) helmets past their prime that did the same thing. And believe me, bits of foam flying into your eyes on a motorcycle is very unpleasant. I think I know how those jacks feel. Now I've got the entire headliner in a Plymouth van doing the same foam-deterioration thing. Whose great idea was it to use foam to bond the fabric to the headliner board in modern cars? Planned obsolescence? Don't they ever learn?

[Fred Sanford]

Well, thats an easy fix, although, might be tedious! Gotta be glad for that.

In some ways, ways exactly like the one your describing, and WORSE, Im not missing moving out of my vintage days!

:D

They're plastic-housing Switchcraft TRS 1/4" jacks in a metal panel, replacing them might be easier/better than cleaning them in place, but either way should be easy enough. Dunno how ambitious I'm gonna get before Sunday, though...we'll see. Where's my DeOxIt? Where's my safety glasses? :blink:

je

[scott fitlin]

The DeOxit? Why theres a can of DeOxit in my shop, thats where the DeOxit is!

:applaud:

[Fred Sanford]

The DeOxit? Why theres a can of DeOxit in my shop, thats where the DeOxit is!

:applaud:

Better put it into your Chrysler mini-van, you'll need it to clean out your eyes when the roof liner disintegrates. :blink:

Actually, that happened to me on a Pontiac.

je

[scott fitlin]

Better put it into your Chrysler mini-van, you'll need it to clean out your eyes when the roof liner disintegrates. :blink:

Actually, that happened to me on a Pontiac.

jeI have eye protection. You should see when Im pulling bearings out of a solid steel fork mounting block, a blind hole block, secured in a shop table mounted vise, using a 360degree expanding collet for a 3in internal diameter pull, attached to a slide handle with a ten pound slug!

Occasionally, the Bearings inner race can seperate from the outer race, Man, you don't wanna get hit in the eyes by the bearings when THEY fly all over the place!

:no:

[steveh]

Most copper mines are owned by the big telecom company's today, so I don't think they can find the right copper mines where you can find the right copper to produce loudspeaker cables.
I don't know when, but I think I come by, just to drink a beer (Heineken??) :dont-know

I don't think that is quite accurate. If you look at some of the major (worldwide) mining corps, they are not owned by telecoms, ie; ASARCO, Freeport McMoran, Rio Tinto, Southern Peru Copper, Codelco, etc., etc.

[Ian Mackenzie]

Copper wire was/is becoming such a valuable commodity it was being stolen from live train lines and shipped over to China. Some of it found its way into Olympic stadiums.......

[Akira]

Never tried it, so perhaps I should not pass judgement. Can't see any advantage but, like the cable myth there are believers.
Just to clear things up for those who do not know. Bi-wire involves running 2 separate sets of cables to low and hi from the same amp.

Bi-amp...now there's a dramatic difference that I can hear, especially in a 2-way system.

[4313B]

No

[Krunchy]

:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl: Just clamp them to the binding posts? You're too much, thats great !!!


http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=34880&stc=1&d=1225082978

[tom_h]

Biwiring is based on a sound electrical idea. By running seperate wires to each speaker crossover section you reduce noise coupling between the two sections and this gives a cleaner sound.

The main idea is that energy stored in the crossover comes back out at some later time and this creates a noise current. Biwiring puts each crossover leg in parallel with a very low amplifer output impedance and the noise current is effectively shorted out. Without biwiring a part of the noise current flows through the other crossover leg and creates a voltage across its circuit elements. This smears the sound.

Or something like that, the details are lost in the mists of time. My EE training happened many decades ago and I don't remember the whole story.

You don't need theory though, it is simple enough to try and the results are audible. It works. Wire is cheap.

[Hoerninger]

You don't need theory though, it is simple enough to try ...

Turn on an electrical heater, the light will dim. This will not happen with different power lines (in the walls).
Similarly this can happen to the tweeter, when the woofer is playing loud enough.
_________
Peter

[Ian Mackenzie]

I think to has to do with modulation of the a/c current fields .

In a thick inductive cable it might have some effect

I also think some amps are cable sensitive to the reactive effects of the cables

Pull a very small inductor on the output of an amp and see what happens:banghead:

Ian

[JBL 4645]

Copper was the backbone of the telco industry for many years.
Even today, there is still a lot of copper in place ...

I got a smashing idea take a ladder place it against the (telegraph pole) climb up and cut the line then set the ladder up on the other end and cut that end off. Now you have some speaker cable, just make sure you do this at night-time and don’t get caught.:D

[Russellc]

Even if you dismiss the notion that there are audible differences between differing types of brand-new cables, there's a huge spectrum of longevity among different types of cables. So, even if you believe that all wires of a certain gauge would sound alike when new, once they're aging things can certainly change.

Just for a small sampling of my background in this subject, here's a short synopsis of my history dealing with wiring day-to-day:

~1984-1986 serviced school & church sound & signalling systems ranging from the 1900s up to the 1980s, working for a company that had the service contract for the NYC Board of Education schools continuously since the 1940s. LOTS of servicing of cables & connections that failed over time, along with many instances of cabling that lasted just fine & tested within spec decades later. We're talking VERY long runs through city-block sized schools and cathedrals, buldings that often shut down their climate controls systems when not in use (if they even have them, often it was just steam heat at best).

~1986-1988 serviced, modified & installed high-end AV systems, mostly systems from the 1970s & 1980s.

~1988-1989 back at the school & church systems, re-visiting the same sites.

~1989-2000 auto & marine communications systems - here's where you REALLY see the difference in quality cabling. Many clients/fleets were repeats or corporate accounts, so many systems were removed, inspected & re-installed over the 11 years I worked there.

~2000-2007 serviced, modified & installed high-end AV & networking systems, ranging from the 1970s to current, even a number of AV systems from the previous stint of work from the late '80s.

Essentially, it makes a difference. I've sampled thousands and thousands of installations, from climate-controlled penthouse apartments to ocean-going tugboats. Some cables will survive in both, some cables will fail in both. Some, like certain hardware-store-special drop lights & extension cords I've seen employed as speaker cable, will have green & gooey conductors the day you take them home from the store & strip the "insulation" back.

je
I think you've put it best. I notice a difference, but no difference I've heard is worth 100 bucks a foot and so forth. I have had great results with radio shack speaker cable........for a while. Then you could see it turn green through the insulation when the sound "changed" for the worst.

I have some pairs of expensive Tara cables I bought back in the day, and the still havent turned green, and I notice a no difference in sound from when they were new. Now those cable cost 10 bucks a foot back then, and thats ridiculous. I have also made speaker cables from plenum cat 5 braids for WAY cheaper that sound just as good as the Taras, havent turned green after several years.

Good cabling can make a difference, but it isnt worth the sort of money some of these guys peddle them for.

Recently I am trying cheap, i.e. monster and dayton, which look like the Radio shack, but are said to be oxygen free. Been a while, no signs of turning green yet, and sound fine. Also cheap!

Russellc

[SEAWOLF97]

I got a smashing idea take a ladder place it against the (telegraph pole) climb up and cut the line then set the ladder up on the other end and cut that end off. Now you have some speaker cable, just make sure you do this at night-time and don’t get caught.:D

The meth boys are waay ahead of you on that ..they get into power sub stations and try to cut LIVE wire for the copper (only 1 time tho) :blink:

In fact they got up on a freeway caution board and cut the fiber optic, thinking (?) they were getting copper. We wake up and traffic signs and small bridges and high school bleachers are missing in the morning....ultimate recyclers.

[JBL 4645]

The meth boys are waay ahead of you on that ..they get into power sub stations and try to cut LIVE wire for the copper (only 1 time tho) :blink:

In fact they got up on a freeway caution board and cut the fiber optic, thinking (?) they were getting copper. We wake up and traffic signs and small bridges and high school bleachers are missing in the morning....ultimate recyclers.

WTF! Tom, are you telling me some gang went out on an act of sabotage! LMAO :rotfl:

[SEAWOLF97]

WTF! Tom, are you telling me some gang went out on an act of sabotage! LMAO :rotfl:

No Ashley, you misunderstand....the meth (methamphetamine) addicts are nuts...they will do anything for money to buy more meth...they have discovered metal recycling...so at night they steal just abt any unguarded metal and take it to the scrapyard for money...happening all over this state. been going on a couple of years now.

In the morning ...stop signs GONE ..kids go to school baseball games, sit in the metal bleachers and they collapse, as the meth heads have stolen all the bolts, bridges are missing guard rails, stealing catalytic converters (mufflers) off vans - while driver is inside church,,,, etc,,etc. ITS CRAZY..!!!

Here's a guy in Florida stealing a lamp post ..

http://www.nbc6.net/news/17035637/detail.html?rss=ami&psp=news

[jcrobso]

Biwiring is based on a sound electrical idea. By running seperate wires to each speaker crossover section you reduce noise coupling between the two sections and this gives a cleaner sound.

The main idea is that energy stored in the crossover comes back out at some later time and this creates a noise current. Bi wiring puts each crossover leg in parallel with a very low amplifier output impedance and the noise current is effectively shorted out. Without bi wiring a part of the noise current flows through the other crossover leg and creates a voltage across its circuit elements. This smears the sound.

Or something like that, the details are lost in the mists of time. My EE training happened many decades ago and I don't remember the whole story.

You don't need theory though, it is simple enough to try and the results are audible. It works. Wire is cheap.
As others have stated Bi Amp can be very beneficial. The practice of bi wiring is to use the same amp output but use different wires for the low and the high. As you stated the output impedance of the amp is very low, in solid state amps it is usually less that one ohm, it is higher in tube amps.
This extremely low impedance will short out any voltage coming back from the speaker. As for two sets for speaker wires, it's you money.
Beware of Emperors New Cloths Syndrome! ;) John

[Doctor_Electron]

Here is a link from Drew Daniels' Sound Path Labs Sitemap ( http://drewdaniels.com/sitemap.html ) titled "AUDIO STRICTLY FOR LAUGHS".
http://drewdaniels.com/badreligion.html

I worked with a dude, Jon, who not only contracted the dreaded (dreaded AFAIC) "More you pay for _____ , the better your system sounds" syndrome, but also happened to have a very wealthy father who tended to accomodate ($$$) him with his whims.
He returned to work one Monday after going to an Audio Show somewhere, with a $500+ pair of preamp to power amp "interconnects".
I think that says it all (but I could be wrong).

BTW, that was $500+ [1983] Dollars!

[jeenie67]

It's Sunday morning, I roar some classical vinyl and couch-potato-it with the laptop. I read every entry to this topic and agree with most of your responses. I constructed interconnects ( traded some bookcases of mine for this material from the chemistry department) from clear polyurethane .125 ID tubing wrapped ( VSR drill motor ) with cat5e, at 45 degree crosshatched, solid copper 24 gauge wire. Terminations were Neutrik XLR's. This assembly was fished through another section of .375" identical matt tubing. Flexible and durable. All connections were soldered with high content silver, solder. My speaker cabling is constructed of four, 12 gauge solid copper core house wiring strands similarly wrapped and terminated direct to the x-over networks (for now, going active this week). Total time and materials: less than two hours and about $25. Seems to agree with some of the text entered here.

[hjames]

I constructed interconnects from clear polyurethane .125 ID tubing wrapped ( VSR drill motor ) with cat5e, at 45 degree crosshatched, solid copper 24 gauge wire.
Terminations were Neutrik XLR's.

My speaker cabling is constructed of four, 12 gauge solid copper core house wiring strands similarly wrapped and terminated direct to the x-over networks (for now, going active this week). Total time and materials: less than two hours and about $25. Seems to agree with some of the text entered here.


Pictures!! please ...

[jeenie67]

Hey !! Here ya' be. It's a good thing I'm small and able to hump it over the M14 to the backside of the cabinetry. :bouncy: It is angled off square from the room about 12 15 or so degrees. Standing waves you say? Indeed! I say I can lay down dead center and 90 degrees perpendicular between my speak easies on a couch I built and see the boob tube nicely too...dead center and perpendicular. :)

[jeenie67]

Howdy. I may have this stuff listed here in the market place, but for a really good person, I could always slice off a chunk. Just pay for the shipping. I think I have some 300 feet of it. This is what I used inside the interconnects. I only use four strands of eight 24 gauge, cut off two, and use the last two as an extra, kinda' like a, RFI inhibitor. I live right next to a superhighway full of semis yackin' on their radios ( they're cool people) as they enter the outer suburban ring through a maze of interchanges. I also am in the flight paths of Buffalo International Airport. And a big microwave tower is in plain sight through my living room window. When I fire up the system, crank all the knobs up full power....FULL ENERGY!!! as a C movie sed'...put a disc in the player, but heaven forbid...DO NOT HIT PLAY !! ....I have to put my ear next to the speaker to hear the hiss.

[jeenie67]

And add to this run: Permatex electrical contact paste....goop....Vaseline with conductive something in it. When I worked at a car dealership years ago I was given a tube of this stuff. Put it on all my trucks light socket connections and ignition contacts. Used to power it through mud and water that would climb into the cab through the open windows....so much filthy fun! Never blew a bulb when fording the floods that occur in our underpasses and generally everywhere there's a waterway. Never even come close to stalling the vehicle either...cops used to give me a hard time for not obeying their orders....aye!, this is nothing!...ok, please sir, I'm sorry....yeah! Had it for years...forgot about it. Have some still, but can't read any of the label anymore. I forgot to mention that I put girls nail polish on the contacts after I solder them. Electric red metalflake.

[Doctor_Electron]

TIP: Take 2 sets of jump-start-cables
Smear 1 set in with baby oil, and powder it afterwards with tallow powder, after that minimum 10 hours in the freezer, when they are deep frozen you can connect the frozen cables and they are ready to produce a super sound, your can’t believe what you hear.
During the time that you are listening to the first set you can do same with set 2, so you always have a workable set speaker cables.
Just a ..:cool:.. tip

Yes, I know from experience your recipe works like you wouldn't believe. But [GASP!] I think you may have omitted a crucial ingredient, and more significantly, SIM Factor.
( Supercrital Installation Mojo ).

You left out the 2 oz/cable Eye of Newt! And with freeze-dried conductors, they MUST be installed by aligning longitudinally in a plane along the Earth's North Pole-South Pole axes, +/- 0.6 degrees, to null out interference due to magnetic lay lines. :hyp:

[Doctor_Electron]

And add to this run: Permatex electrical contact paste....goop....

Known affectionately in the [Old School] telcom trade as "Icky Pic" ?

Messy.

[jcrobso]

Howdy. I may have this stuff listed here in the market place, but for a really good person, I could always slice off a chunk. Just pay for the shipping. I think I have some 300 feet of it. This is what I used inside the interconnects. I only use four strands of eight 24 gauge, cut off two, and use the last two as an extra, kinda' like a, RFI inhibitor. I live right next to a superhighway full of semis yackin' on their radios ( they're cool people) as they enter the outer suburban ring through a maze of interchanges. I also am in the flight paths of Buffalo International Airport. And a big microwave tower is in plain sight through my living room window. When I fire up the system, crank all the knobs up full power....FULL ENERGY!!! as a C movie sed'...put a disc in the player, but heaven forbid...DO NOT HIT PLAY !! ....I have to put my ear next to the speaker to hear the hiss.
At the Radio station I use cat5 for Balanced audio, but I would never use it unbalanced audio.
The unused strands should be grounded if you want to use them as shielding. John

[jcrobso]

Here is a link from Drew Daniels' Sound Path Labs Sitemap ( http://drewdaniels.com/sitemap.html ) titled "AUDIO STRICTLY FOR LAUGHS".
http://drewdaniels.com/badreligion.html

I worked with a dude, Jon, who not only contracted the dreaded (dreaded AFAIC) "More you pay for _____ , the better your system sounds" syndrome, but also happened to have a very wealthy father who tended to accomodate ($$$) him with his whims.
He returned to work one Monday after going to an Audio Show somewhere, with a $500+ pair of preamp to power amp "interconnects".
I think that says it all (but I could be wrong)

BTW, that was $500+ [1983] Dollars!

If any of you know the story of "The Emperors New Cloths" it can apply to audio big time.;)
Many people thought I was crazy in 1966 when I spent $120 for my first JBL D140F. Just the speaker and no box?? Is what my wife said! I still have the speaker and the wife by the way.

In general I say that a $100 cable DOSE NOT sound four times better that $25 cable. John

[Fred Sanford]

At the Radio station I use cat5 for Balanced audio, but I would never use it unbalanced audio.
The unused strands should be grounded if you want to use them as shielding. John

It works fine for both, depending on cable length & other variables. The unused strands haven't entered into the equation in my experience.

Works for video, too, in a pinch.

je

[jeenie67]

.....Thanks John. I'm making new ones sometime soon for the new addition to my system. Before ,I think I was just tired of unraveling everything and left the extra strands. They sure do the job though. The only noise I hear is from the turntable and CJ preamp. Taking note, and I run full balanced. Tanx, Gene.