Is this possible ?

[SEAWOLF97]

I was reading an online review of my MD deck and found this comment ..

MDS-JB930 Review

"The 930 is built like a tank and has DAC's that sound like a high-end CD player. The unit sounds better during recording than possibly any other unit out there...including ES units. That goes for analog and digital recording. Also the full-band-width 24-bit digital input lets you feed the 930 up-to-24 bit PCM data and get that resolution benefit on your MD's. This means this unit can record MD's that literally sound BETTER than our uncompressed CD format (too bad it doesn't sample-rate convert from 96 kHz, otherwise you could record 24/96 DVD's digitally...although most DVD players downsample/quantize anyway for their digital outputs). The keyboard is the biggest pleasure of all. I can't wait to record MD's whereas it used to be a chore"


http://minidisc.org/sony_jb930_review.html


So, if I'm reading this correctly, recording a CD thru the 24 bit DAC to MD will improve the sound ?? ( I think maybe HAVE noticed this myself, but maybe self delusion ? )

[rdgrimes]

No, you can't improve an existing recording. It states that you can make a recording that is superior to CD-quality, but that presumes that the source is superior to CD-quality.

[SEAWOLF97]

OK ... I'm seeing it a bit clearer

superior source records to CD = CD quality
superior source records to MD = higher than CD quality

[rdgrimes]

Yup. If I read that correctly, it records at 24 bit. (CD is 16 bit). But it still records at 44 KHz, so benefits are limited. Recording at 96 KHz would be wonderful, but don't hold your breath waiting for that in a consumer recorder.

FWIW, pro mastering consoles can sample and record at rates in excess of 2MHz. SACD usually translates to 88KHz, and DVD-A is generally 24 bit at 96KHz.

[SEAWOLF97]

Yup. If I read that correctly, it records at 24 bit. (CD is 16 bit). But it still records at 44 KHz, so benefits are limited. Recording at 96 KHz would be wonderful, but don't hold your breath waiting for that in a consumer recorder.

FWIW, pro mastering consoles can sample and record at rates in excess of 2MHz. SACD usually translates to 88KHz, and DVD-A is generally 24 bit at 96KHz.

Ok, since I hooked into an expert here ....my question, the K2 system encodes at 20 bit, but then resolves to 16, is there not a loss ? Is 128X oversampling affect the KHZ level ? or is that it ..128KHZ ?

the CD's I've heard on K2 encoding do sound mighty nice.

__________________________________________________ _____________

These albums were mastered in analog utilizing the 20-Bit K2 Super Coding System.

Developed by JVC, the 20-Bit K2 Super Coding System integrates three important digital audio functions:

1. The JVC 20-Bit, 128 times over-sampling (http://www.demonoid.com/files/details/1568857/5426554/#) analog to .
2. The JVC K2 Super Coding resolves the high resolution 20-Bit signal to the 16-Bit compact
disc format while retaining the integrity of the low level information.
3. The JVC K2 Interface effectively eliminates time base jitter in the digital data stream.

The end result is a compact disc of extraordinarily than that of today's conventional
compact discs. The 20-Bit K2 Super Coding System allows the listener to hear every subtle sonic nuance
from the breathing of the musicians to the explosive crack of the snare drum. Enjoy!

http://www.demonoid.com/files/details/1568857/5426554/

[rdgrimes]

Ok, since I hooked into an expert here ....my question, the K2 system encodes at 20 bit, but then resolves to 16, is there not a loss ? Is 128X oversampling affect the KHZ level ? or is that it ..128KHZ ?

the CD's I've heard on K2 encoding do sound mighty nice.

__________________________________________________ _____________

These albums were mastered in analog utilizing the 20-Bit K2 Super Coding System.

Developed by JVC, the 20-Bit K2 Super Coding System integrates three important digital audio functions:

1. The JVC 20-Bit, 128 times over-sampling analog to .
2. The JVC K2 Super Coding resolves the high resolution 20-Bit signal to the 16-Bit compact
disc format while retaining the integrity of the low level information.
3. The JVC K2 Interface effectively eliminates time base jitter in the digital data stream.

The end result is a compact disc of extraordinarily than that of today's conventional
compact discs. The 20-Bit K2 Super Coding System allows the listener to hear every subtle sonic nuance
from the breathing of the musicians to the explosive crack of the snare drum. Enjoy!

http://www.demonoid.com/files/details/1568857/5426554/

Sounds like a little double-talk, I'm not sure what they refer to. In literal terms, "128x oversampling" in reference to a CD should mean 5.6 MHz masters. I can't think of any real NEED for that level of sampling, but who knows.

I'll put it this way: the care and precision that's taken with the creation of the original master, or the re-mastering from original tapes, has more impact on the final results than does the raw numbers. GIGO, in other words. Will a higher resolution digital master result in a higher resolution CD? Maybe, maybe not. CD technology is grossly out-dated in terms of what we now know about high-res audio. CD's are always 44KHz, but if that's 44k samples of a higher-res master, then you should, in theory, carry some of the quality over. But the guy sitting at the mastering console has more control over what you hear than the technology does.

[Ducatista47]

Here is a non technical thought. Thinking that any audio source signal can be improved with downstream equipment is akin to believing a perpetual motion machine will work. When it comes to signal paths for home listening, KISS (Keep It Simple, Silly). The source, by the way, is not your CD, vinyl or file. It is the performance. After that is the microphone, then the amp (sometimes in the microphone itself), then the master media, be it tape or file. Notice that to create a file requires yet another step, converting an analogue signal to digital.

None of these steps can improve the signal. Ever. But any of them could degrade it. Chances are, everything probably does degrades it. Audio reproduction is probably like quantum mechanics - it is impossible to observe (process in this case) anything without altering it. The trick would be to alter in ways that are not audible, never an easy thing to do. Alan Kimmel strives to design circuits that behave like this.

Put another way, saying a source has been improved is saying the original instruments and/or voices were not what we really wanted to hear in the first place. Remember, what this is all about is audio reproduction. The more like the source, the better. When we don't like the way someone plays or sings, we listen to someone else. We don't look for technology to make them better musicians by enhancing their abilities.

If you want to go crazy with improvements that might actually work, try room treatment. Room treatment is not in the electronic signal path and can solve problems that EQ, for instance, cannot (as opposed to problems it can do something about). Done right, room treatment is a miracle drug - no harmful side effects (no downside acoustically). It cannot improve the signal, but it can allow your ears to hear it with less coloration, IE distortion produced in this case acoustically rather than electronically.

Clark

[Hoerninger]

When it comes to signal paths for home listening, KISS (Keep It Simple, Silly). The source ... is the performance.

Once upon a time the ambitious amateur had a good chance:

Good microphones, 19,5 ips halftrack reel to reel with Dolby or Highcom and then straight to the headphones.

Only a few had it but it was great. Is there an alternativ today?
__________
Peter

[Ducatista47]

Is there an alternativ today?
__________
Peter
I cannot answer that, but the VTL recording methodology we discussed earlier was only ten or fifteen years ago. Talk about direct:

One stereo microphone, its amplifier being self contained (eight tubes inside!)

Therefore, NO MIXING

No noise reduction. A tiny bit of hiss being accepted to avoid the distortion and phase shift of digital noise reduction circuitry.

Direct to a Studer totally reworked by David Manley with his own tube internals.

Taped in analogue and digital, the analogue tape was preferred and was cut directly to disk with advanced customized equipment.

The microphone is still available for sale. The choices made are available to anyone. The custom equipment - have at it, engineers. All the equipment still exists as far as I know, but sits in an unused studio.

In the digital realm, from AIX Records:


About the Recording Approach

This recording is NOT an attempt to "document" a live recording of a jazz quartet but instead an exploration of the creative process of making and recording music on videotape and using high-resolution digital audio recording equipment. AIX Records uses no EQ, dynamics processing or artificial reverberation...everything you hear is as the musicians played it. Both "audience" and "stage" 5.1 mixes and a PCM 96/24 bit stereo mix are included on the disc on the DVD-Video side. However, it is the DVD-Audio 96 kHz/24 bit tracks encoded with Meridian Lossless Packing [MLP] that elevates the listening experience well beyond a traditional CD or even a live event. You can chose to listen from the middle of ensemble and hear the sound of the instruments coming from all directions or place yourself in the "best seat in the house". The dynamic range and fidelity offered by the 96 kHz/24 Bit source recording makes this recording come to life.


At least no EQ. But digital will always have at least two more steps in the process than analogue. A/D, then D/A to the speakers.

Clark