Loudspeakercable - help is wanted

[Svanen]

Hi everyone;)

I am the happy owner of a set JBL 4341 loudspeakers in perfect condition (original blue) :).

Here is my setup:

Krell KAV400xi - Sony X707ES - Audio Alchemy DTI+XDP+PS1+PS4.
Cables: VDH MCD501 orig. + VDH DM300MK2.

I have used a friends Cimber 4VS which I think is very good for the 4341. But he needs it now:( I have then used VDH Clearwater, but...it doesn't work:banghead:.

Is here anyone who can me a good advice. Thanks!

[demon]

really good advice not to care much about it. cables have an easy job as far as i know.
if its thick enough to carry the load (...), if it feels good in your hands and is nice to look at -its perfect!

cheers,
mikey

[Svanen]

Hi Mikey

I can guarantee you there is a difference but thanks for your answer!



really good advice not to care much about it. cables have an easy job as far as i know.
if its thick enough to carry the load (...), if it feels good in your hands and is nice to look at -its perfect!

cheers,
mikey

[BMWCCA]

Y'all kill me with how seriously you take this stuff. My local hardware store carries all gauges, on the spool, in bulk. I buy it by the foot, or the reel, as I need it. Sure it's gotten expensive on the price of copper mostly, but it's still lamp cord. I attach my own Pomona plugs to fit JBL and Crown terminals. However, as has been postulated, I am a bottom feeder. Or, as we joke here amongst a group of us driving old BMWs when one of us actually buys one less than 15-years old, "You must be rich!" :applaud:

https://www.mycablemart.com/store/images/products/426_large.jpg

[hjames]

Y'all kill me with how seriously you take this stuff. :applaud:

D'oh!!
There you go, you had to light them up again ...!:blink:
betcha 10 spot that dog feller will be here soon!

(But remember, JBL didn't use any fancy wire INSIDE the speaker box!)

The prevailing answer seems to be:

If you can hear the difference, spend the money!

[Hoerninger]

but...it doesn't work:banghead:.

Not clear - a break?

I go for thick - short - unexpensive,
briefly what BMWCCA has proposed. :yes:


[Another amp can minimize cable differences :blink: -
amp, cable, network and speakers represent a network with active and passive parts.
The interaction can be very obscure, I do not care very much .:bouncy: ]
____________
Peter

[Mr. Widget]

Is here anyone who can me a good advice. Thanks!Wish I could help.

Good luck on your quest!


Widget

[1audiohack]

Drew Daniels.com, go to more links, open "Audio strictly for laughs"

Seriously if you scout around a bit, he has some pretty good advise, and I believe him to really be an authority on the subject.

[demon]

(But remember, JBL didn't use any fancy wire INSIDE the speaker box!)(now, thats easy to change once the soldering gun is warmed up a bit)
(never look into a power amp if you are scared easily)


edit:

Drew Daniels.com, go to more links, open "Audio strictly for laughs"
this one (?): http://drewdaniels.com/badreligion.html


mikey

[demon]

sorry, my french is..

there!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solder
"a solder without a gun"

[Hoerninger]

sorry, my french is..

Not french but helpful:

www.dict.cc/ (http://www.dict.cc/)
or
http://pda.leo.org/

These tools are working vice versa. :)

The second one is recommended for its quick and easy usage, it is meant for PDAs.
I am using the first one as there is a nice OS/2 frontend.
___________
Peter

[macaroonie]

Not as imune as you might think. :)

[Svanen]

Hello folks:)

I must say that I am surprised.

Am I the only one who can hear the difference:blink:

Yesterday me and a friend tested my Krell KAV400xi against his Mcintosh C42 and MC602. There was a difference of course, but...it was not so big as when we changed the loudspeakercables. Believe it or not.

Anyway thanks for the answers

[Hoerninger]

Am I the only one who can hear the difference:blink:

As far as I remember no one denied differences.

Please describe your differences in cables (diameter, completition, plugs ...) and the differences in your listening impressions!
___________
Peter

[Svanen]

Hi Peter

I will try to explain (but my english is not to good):blink:

The Kimber 4VS makes a very big "picture", dynamic, speed and acceleration. Timbre, space, detail, intimacy..., it makes musical nuances and color with emotion, truth, and realism. In my ears (my friend who owns it agree). The VDH Clearwater is a much cheaper cable and you can hear it.

I was hoping that someone could tell me what (for them) is the best loudspeakercable to use with JBL.


As far as I remember no one denied differences.

Please describe your differences in cables (diameter, completition, plugs ...) and the differences in your listening impressions!
___________
Peter

[BMWCCA]

The Kimber 4VS makes a very big "picture", dynamic, speed and acceleration. Timbre, space, detail, intimacy..., it makes musical nuances and color with emotion, truth, and realism. In my ears (my friend who owns it agree).I tried big-box-store audiophile cables but the sound from my JBLs turned green. I much preferred the blue sound I get from standard duplex copper cables. I've also seen a tinge of purple when I tried the Opus MM plus the room had just a nuance of a baking-with-vanilla smell. I eventually figured out that if I used 18-gauge copper on the (+) terminal and Alan Share Modena on the (-) that the sound was a nice robin's egg blue and the room smelled of Dr Pepper Jelly Bellies——and that made me very happy.

But then one of my daughters is a synesthete.

Whatever blows your skirt up, as we say around here!

:banghead:

[hjames]

I tried big-box-store audiophile cables but the sound from my JBLs turned green. I much preferred the blue sound I get from standard duplex copper cables. I've also seen a tinge of purple when I tried the Opus MM plus the room had just a nuance of a baking-with-vanilla smell. I eventually figured out that if I used 18-gauge copper on the (+) terminal and Alan Share Modena on the (-) that the sound was a nice robin's egg blue and the room smelled of Dr Pepper Jelly Bellies——and that made me very happy.

But then one of my daughters is a synesthete.

Whatever blows your skirt up, as we say around here!

:banghead:

You are a VERY BAD MAN! :D
...

for a taste of synesthesia ... Alfred Bester!
(http://www.amazon.com/Stars-My-Destination-Alfred-Bester/dp/0679767800)
gully foyle is my name
and terra is my nation
deep space is my dwelling place
the stars my destination

[BMWCCA]

for a taste of synesthesia ... I've lived with a synesthete for almost twenty years. Perfect pitch and artistic talent seem to go with the voice of an angel. Difficulty doing math fast seems to be the only down-side. Oh yeah, and some right-left difficulties made teaching her to drive quite interesting. Thanks, I'll file that reference away for her.

[Hoerninger]

I was hoping that someone could tell me what (for them) is the best loudspeakercable to use with JBL.

I am sorry, I can not help you. It does not depend on the label (JBL has many good products though ;) ) but what is inside of the enclosure.

I tried to find out a dependency of what you are hearing and the corresponding technical details.

Argueing with physical facts can guide you to the moon, but closing the eyes is a way too.
____________
Peter

[grumpy]

http://www.harman-japan.co.jp/product/jblhome/jsc1500_550.html

of course! :D

[AltecLansingFan]

Hi everyone;)

I am the happy owner of a set JBL 4341 loudspeakers in perfect condition (original blue) :).

Here is my setup:

Krell KAV400xi - Sony X707ES - Audio Alchemy DTI+XDP+PS1+PS4.
Cables: VDH MCD501 orig. + VDH DM300MK2.

I have used a friends Cimber 4VS which I think is very good for the 4341. But he needs it now:( I have then used VDH Clearwater, but...it doesn't work:banghead:.

Is here anyone who can me a good advice. Thanks!

The cables are very important in you system and can make a big difference in sound quality. It depends on what kind of sound you like. If you use a solid state amplifier the monster Monster cable M series 2.2S can sound really detailed, warm, with a very good sound stage. Monster works a lot together with Krell, so maybe this is an option. I tried this cable on my 300B tube amplifier, with the Altec model 19 that was not good at all, very, warm and woolly, but the cables are sounding very, nice with the combination McIntosch MC2100/604 super duplex speaker. My friend uses the monster cables in combination with the JBL K2 S9800/MC1000 also very nice.
Try this http://www.6moons.com/archivelibrary/writer.html
Here you can find some interesting reviews about audio gear and cables.

[BMWCCA]

Anyone with a home computer can find myriad articles on the Internet about exotic or "audiofile" audio cables, both pro and con. I hit Google and came up with this:
http://forum.ecoustics.com/bbs/messages/5/6528.html

I was particularly interested in many high-end cable claims of a "break-in" period of up to 200 hours of listening before the victim, err, customer, might be able to accurately tell of any improvement in sound quality. Here's a short quote from the above link on that topic from an electrical engineer:

. . . the exotic cable vendor concocts marketing literature, usually in the form of a story, based on half engineering truths or misapplied engineering principles to lure you in. They often reject the proven fundamental truths that govern these principles and claim established associated theories cannot be verified through measurements or engineering certainties, but instead only through hearing. What they fail to provide however is repeatable statistical data and correlation that their cables do sound “better” for the reasons they tout. They often go one step further and claim it can take weeks for the consumer to hear the benefits of their cables since they require a break-in period. In reality cable break in is another misnomer, which I suspect is used to convince the customer to keep the cables beyond the retailers return policy. In addition, statistically, the longer the customer keeps a product the less likely they are to return it.The same site offers a "budget" guide to cables and interconnects here: http://www.audioholics.com/buying-guides/how-to-shop/cable-budget-guidelines which actually refers to some science and engineering. On "sound bite" from that is:
In fact, many of these cable companies are simply marketing Snake Oil (http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/audioprinciples/interconnects/snake_oil1.php) in fancy packages, and selling them to you for outrageous prices.You might also find the "snake oil" link (http://www.audioholics.com/education/cables/top-ten-signs-an-audio-cable-vendor-is-selling-you-snake-oil) [above] interesting. As Steve Winwood said, "Do What You Like".

[richluvsound]

Having done an A-B with cheap OFC cables compared to £1000 speaker cables on a $200,000 home hifi system here is my advice !

Get down to Radio Shack - spend no more than 50 cents a metre,paint the cable Red, stick some ferrite magnets on one end, not forgetting the arrows - sound don't like going the wrong way. 2 hours in the deep freeze -cryois all the rage !!!!! Take the $1000 you have left over and donate it to famine charity.

Rich;)

[Mr. Widget]

We may not think about it in these terms, but Hi-Fi is a business. People make amplifiers, speakers, turntables, CD players, DACs, and on and on including speaker wire and hope to produce them and sell them at a profit. Now, what you may not know is that every manufacturer determines what their dealer pricing will be. This typically varies a bit by product type. As it turns out most brands of interconnects and speaker wire have widest margins in the business.

At discount outlets like Best Buy, they make almost all of their profit on extended warranties and accessories like interconnects and speaker wire. At the high end stores, while they are more likely to get a decent margin on the actual gear they sell, the very high profit margin on the exotic cables makes them a very popular item to offer.


Widget

[SEAWOLF97]

I was in Saigon last year browsing audio street and buying connectors and such....most were unbranded or in Chinese, but some were "Monster" brand.

I put the monsters side by side with the Chinese named ones and they were dead on identical, exact.
Xcept the Monster one were at least 3X the price of the "no name" items. Guess which ones I bought ?


here is my advice !

Get down to Radio Shack - spend no more than 50 cents a metre,paint the cable Red, stick some ferrite magnets on one end, not forgetting the arrows - sound don't like going the wrong way. 2 hours in the deep freeze -cryois all the rage !!!!! Take the $1000 you have left over and donate it to famine charity.

Rich;)

:applaud::applaud::applaud:

[BMWCCA]

http://www.harman-japan.co.jp/product/jblhome/jsc1500_550.html

of course! :DQuote from Harman Japans:
Durable Jacket with Vibration Suppression SlitsThat's what I need. I've always had problems with my speaker wiring vibrating. I guess the Japanese economy isn't quite as bad as ours, or maybe their rich just keep getting richer, too? Do they have JBL underwear to go with those "jackets"? ;)

[Donald]

Could be JBL assumes you string the speaker cable in front of the speakers. With all the air being moved by the woofer maybe they are concerned about the speaker wire vibrating. The slits let the air go through without the wire moving.

Think this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0Fi1VcbpAI

;)

[Svanen]

Hi everyone

First of all - thanks for all the answers:applaud:

I ended up with AudioQuest Gibraltar (paid 170 EURO). After to weeks burn in the sound changed:) I have just one word for it - MAGIC:D

AudioQuest Gibraltar works great with JBL 4341

[hjames]

Hi everyone

First of all - thanks for all the answers:applaud:

I ended up with AudioQuest Gibraltar (paid 170 EURO). After to weeks burn in the sound changed:) I have just one word for it - MAGIC:D

AudioQuest Gibraltar works great with JBL 4341

VERY neat! As another 4341 owner, please, post some pictures of your system!

[Audiobeer]

The common denominater around here is go with what JBL recommends. 16 guage zip cord. :) Seriously most of us here are more concerned about the cables causing an undo amount of compacitance/resistance and keeping the connections clean. Other than that the majority of us here would rather spend the money elsewhere. As you get higher in the food chain "money wise" it seems folks will hear the difference when spending the money. Just my knee jerk conclusion.

[Ian Mackenzie]

http://www.stereo.net.au/forums/showthread.php?t=9738

[Ian Mackenzie]

Sorry,

Its was a link to a member selling a similar Krell amp in favour tubes;

Here is the amp in question:http://www.stereophile.com/integratedamps/809/index1.html

What buggs me about this cable enquiry is the amount of cable / wiring inside the loudspeaker.

As I recall the 4341 has a fixed crossover (not biampable), L pads and a wire loom.

I have messed with cables over the years and while I can say I have detected difference there is no means of say what is right/wrong.

Perhaps one point is that if you a serious about cables with a nice amp like the Krell then consider running the same wire type from the amp to the loudspeaker drivers. The likelyhood of getting a definitive improvement as opposed to be just different soundis much greater.

I did this for Porshedpm using using Cardas cables for external crossover in the images below. Cardas binding posts and spade connectors were part of the deal and an 8 pole Speakon plug.

With sounding rude if you own Krell amp then the justifucation is there for a well thought out cable system.

No I am not looking at doing another job like this. It was cost no object job at the time and was very time intensive. The results were impressive. Other members have made external crossovers and elaborate cable systems. In my own setup using Mundorf silver oil capacitors I used Cat 9 twisted pairs (C/- of Zilch) which were not expensive but took ages to make up. I liked what they did. But I used the same cables right to the drivers. This cable had a very open and refined quality using Passlabs amps as a reference.

[spwal]

I tried big-box-store audiophile cables but the sound from my JBLs turned green. I much preferred the blue sound I get from standard duplex copper cables. I've also seen a tinge of purple when I tried the Opus MM plus the room had just a nuance of a baking-with-vanilla smell. I eventually figured out that if I used 18-gauge copper on the (+) terminal and Alan Share Modena on the (-) that the sound was a nice robin's egg blue and the room smelled of Dr Pepper Jelly Bellies——and that made me very happy.

But then one of my daughters is a synesthete.


:banghead:


I havent been able to discribe like this since a couple nights in college...

[Mr. Widget]

Quoted from a review in the Absolute Sound.

"Paul Speltz’s “anti-cable” (is) constructed of 12-gauge solid-core copper wire with a very thin red coating or dielectric. According to Speltz, it’s the minimal dielectric that accounts for the amazing clarity and virtual lack of sonic signature.

Miraculously, the cost is only $80 for an 8-foot pair with spades."

Basically he is selling magnet wire... not a bad idea, I am still a skeptic, but if you want to terminate your own wire, here is the same stuff for far less...

http://www.electronicplus.com/content/ProductPage.asp?maincat=WR&subcat=WM1


Widget

[Svanen]

Hi everyone

Here is some pictures of my gear

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=34612&stc=1&d=1223982158

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=34639&stc=1&d=1224050224
JBL 4341 in perfect condition!

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=34610&stc=1&d=1223982116
Audio Alchemy DTI+XDP

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=34608&stc=1&d=1223981519
Power supplies PS1 + PS4

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=34642&stc=1&d=1224050335
AudioQuest Gibraltar

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=34641&stc=1&d=1224050268
Sony X707ES

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=34640&stc=1&d=1224050242
Krell KAV400XI

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=34643&stc=1&d=1224051301
Analysis Plus Silver Oval In

Last week I bought a set of Analysis Plus Silver Oval In interconnect.

With my AudioQuest Gibraltar it makes music so living and close.

I am happy and satisfied:)

[Mr. Widget]

I am happy and satisfied:)Can't find fault with that!


Widget

[Allanvh5150]

Basically he is selling magnet wire... not a bad idea, I am still a skeptic, but if you want to terminate your own wire, here is the same stuff for far less...

Widget

This is exactly the right idea Widget. A decent sized peice of metal with minimal insulation is the best. The insulation on the cable is the only thing that can effect the "sound" coming out the end of the cable. Some people say that they can hear the difference in the metals but I cant say I have heard it. You do however notice a huge difference in a poor quality cable with a lot of capacitance in the insulation. Magnet wire should be the ultimate but it is not very practical. :)

[BMWCCA]

Here is some pictures of my gearOMG!
Are those arrows pointing in the right direction? ;)

[Svanen]

OMG!
Are those arrows pointing in the right direction? ;)

I hope so!:) Analysis Plus recommend that the arrows points towards the amplifier. I must say the Silver Oval In has "done some things" especially in diskant and midrange - I feal air and heavy bass:D Thinking about changing the inside cabling to better. Those two cables has lifted my gear to "heaven". Happy - happy:) Listening to Lynard Skynard in the moment - Thanks I'm a country boy:p
he is a king:applaud:God bless America
Thanks for reply

[BMWCCA]

I hope so!:) Analysis Plus recommend that the arrows points towards the amplifier. I must say the Silver Oval In has "done some things" especially in diskant and midrange - I feal air and heavy bass:D Thinking about changing the inside cabling to better. Those two cables has lifted my gear to "heaven". Happy - happy:) Listening to Lynard Skynard in the moment - Thanks I'm a country boy:p
he is a king:applaud:God bless AmericaI'm glad you're happy I'm sure Anal-Ysis knows what they're talking about. Maybe you could do a test for us and reverse the directional interconnects and let us know how it affects your air and bass?

Do you actually need hi-fidelity to listen to Lynyrd Skynyrd? :dont-know

:D

[hjames]

I'm glad you're happy I'm sure Anal-Ysis knows what they're talking about. Maybe you could do a test for us and reverse the directional interconnects and let us know how it affects your air and bass?

Do you actually need hi-fidelity to listen to Lynard Skynard? :dont-know

:D

"Thanks I'm a country boy" - wasn't that John Denver from NJ ??
:applaud:

Listening to Lynard Skynard in the moment ... he is a king

[BMWCCA]

"Thanks I'm a country boy" - wasn't that John Denver from NJ ??
:applaud:

No, he's the guy who thinks the Shenandoah River and Blue Ridge Mountains are in West Virginia. Here's the Lynyrd Skynyrd song link (I corrected the spelling thanks to Google):
http://www.amazon.com/gp/dmusic/media/sample.m3u/ref=dm_mu_dp_trk4_smpl?ie=UTF8&catalogItemType=track&ASIN=B000V62SSU&CustomerID=AHMTSYOROR3M0&DownloadLocation=CD

[Svanen]

I'm glad you're happy I'm sure Anal-Ysis knows what they're talking about. Maybe you could do a test for us and reverse the directional interconnects and let us know how it affects your air and bass?

Do you actually need hi-fidelity to listen to Lynard Skynard? :dont-know

:D

He - he! I like his music - one of the very best:D - BUT... with listening I have one favorite - Keb'Mo! Do you know him:banghead:
Thanks for your reply! I will do the test in a few month - I really think the Silver Oval In has not burn in - enough!!

[BMWCCA]

I really think the Silver Oval In has not burn in - enough!! Maybe this will help? :flamer:

Seemed to do wonders for our Blue Oval over here: http://www.motherjones.com/news/feature/1977/09/compress.mov

Good luck!

[grumpy]

"... the band is just fantastic, that is really what I think... "

yeah... and careful burning in the speaker cables backwards;
you might have to start over again.:duck:

[Ducatista47]

Quoted from a review in the Absolute Sound.

"Paul Speltz’s “anti-cable” (is) constructed of 12-gauge solid-core copper wire with a very thin red coating or dielectric. According to Speltz, it’s the minimal dielectric that accounts for the amazing clarity and virtual lack of sonic signature.

Miraculously, the cost is only $80 for an 8-foot pair with spades."

Basically he is selling magnet wire... not a bad idea, I am still a skeptic, but if you want to terminate your own wire, here is the same stuff for far less...

http://www.electronicplus.com/content/ProductPage.asp?maincat=WR&subcat=WM1


Widget

Skepticism is good. I can tell you that using modest gauge magnet wire to replace nice heavy gauge Kimber at the very least does no harm. So much for needing heavy wire or cable for high efficiency drivers. I am not in a position to declare improvements; listening to the music is taking precedence over critical listening of the system performance - so it is working very well indeed. It seems the magnet wire gets in the way of detail less than larger wire and cable. I can't prove it.

I get one pound spools of double insulated for twenty dollars here: http://www.oemwire.com/smagwire1.htm (http://www.oemwire.com/hmagwire1.htm)


This is exactly the right idea Widget. A decent sized peice of metal with minimal insulation is the best. The insulation on the cable is the only thing that can effect the "sound" coming out the end of the cable. Some people say that they can hear the difference in the metals but I cant say I have heard it. You do however notice a huge difference in a poor quality cable with a lot of capacitance in the insulation. Magnet wire should be the ultimate but it is not very practical. :)

Could you elaborate on how magnet wire is not very practical for you? I find it quite convenient but do admit that I had to rethink how to run wire. It is easy if you use 18-22 gauge for the woofers and 26 or so for the tweeters. I am not the only one to find that heavier wire and more complex cables seem to loose subtlety and clarity in the resulting sound. If the rest of your system is capable of that subtlety and clarity, it goes without saying. I am tending to believe Steve Schell that lighter magnet wire is usually better than heavier magnet wire!

To me, magnet wire sounds better than expensive cable. It is for that that I use it, not for the price.


Clark

[Allanvh5150]

It is pratical inside cabinets. I was meaning that for amp to speaker cabling it can easily get damaged and so on. In a fixed installation it shoud be fine. :)

[Ducatista47]

That is what I thought you meant. I was also faced with doubt at the prospect of running what looks like bare wire through the air to my crossover and along the floor to the speakers. We have eight cats, five dogs, three teenage humans and my own clumsy feet.

So far, after eight months, no damage at all, not so much as a kink. The 26 gauge to the tweeters is dark green and does not attract feline attention. The rest is 20 and 22 gauge and has proved to be very strong. Indestructible, in fact.

The wire is, after all, made of metal stronger than any normally encountered insulation covering and is not really bare. When you scrape off some insulation to make a connection or solder, it becomes apparent how really tough the thin coatings are. This stuff will not scrape off by accident. Step on it all you want. If you are really paranoid about this, the higher temperature rating coatings are a double layer of two dissimilar dielectrics, thicker at no additional cost. They are designed for motor windings as opposed to transformers and are incredibly tough. One of the coatings is nylon and is actually flexible.

Between using binding posts and soldering direct connections where possible (almost everywhere, a practice I endorse), nothing needed to be terminated. Much less costly and a much better signal path. I have forgone my usual beloved spade lugs; they are totally unnecessary with magnet wire.

The whole process has proved to be a win-win scenario, highly recommended. If you want to experiment with this on the cheap, Radio Shack has a 22-26-30 gauge package for five dollars US. I have already posted above a link to one source of many available where spools can be reasonably obtained for the price of a couple of feet of normal audio wire. The page I linked to happens to be for the heavier, two coating insulation. Widget has been kind enough to provide another.

Clark

[Ducatista47]

If the idea of using thinner rather than thicker wire seems counter intuitive, let me ignore the audio cable babble. Take a look at the chart here: http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm Compiled by engineers, not salesmen.

Remember, with sensitive speakers capable of high resolution and detail, too much metal in wire is a bad idea. See John Wyckoff's findings from his five years of experimenting to design the Super 12's. He noticed that even binding posts with too much metal adversely affected the sound. Most practical work in this field, again ignoring the babble by those trying to sell something, have found that too little resistance in wire is not a good thing when connecting amps to speakers. 20 gauge solid wire has 10.15 ohms per thousand feet. That is still a very small amount for a typical ten or twenty foot run.

The chart will show that anything larger than 18 gauge is complete overkill for reasonably efficient speakers, almost everything we discuss on these forums. Note the ohms per 1000 feet and maximum amps for power transmission (a very conservative rating) figures. The number for 20 gauge is 1.5 amps. With 88-103 dB/watt/meter, would you want 1.5 amps continuous or even peak through your speakers?

This "requirement" of using large wire or cable for home audio really needs to be put to rest.

Clark

[Mr. Widget]

Remember, with sensitive speakers capable of high resolution and detail, too much metal in wire is a bad idea. See John Wyckoff's findings from his five years of experimenting to design the Super 12's. He noticed that even binding posts with too much metal adversely affected the sound.:blink:

I was going with you up until this part... too much? We basically want as minimal a voltage drop between amp and load as possible... how can a slab of CU be a problem?


Widget

[Ducatista47]

:blink:
I was going with you up until this part... too much? We basically want as minimal a voltage drop between amp and load as possible... how can a slab of CU be a problem?

Widget

I will defer to those with more cred than myself. Ask Steve Schell. I must note that nearly everyone in the Full Range/Single Driver community, users of efficient speakers capable of startling resolution (and usually users of those little amps we both know can yield this type of result), has found that as a practical matter larger wire kills the detail and subtlety. I know, I know, this only matters if your system is up to it and you sit in the sweet spot, I agree. But I thought that was the whole idea of High Fidelity!

How could this be possible? Wire fulfills multiple functions in audio connections. Many interactions occur and resistance is only one of them. We are talking about at the least an amplifier-wire-speaker interaction, and even a speaker is usually a complex system in itself. The amplifier certainly is. Using a purely scientific point of view, I can accept that the large wire used to obtain the lowest resistance - in other words probably the lower resistance itself - could impart other properties to the end result. To conclude these properties would always be desirable would be unscientific. ;) Synergy is a pretty fundamental concept and far be it from me to ignore it. That is why I use a lot of listening to decide what works. Conventional wisdom is pretty spotty and should always be subject to personal verification.

Dynamics at extreme volume might be another story, but that has nothing to do with High Fidelity.

I suggest to those who do have a high detail, high resolution system - why not give it a try? It might run you twenty dollars tops and a little time. Like anything else, if you don't like it just change back to what you do like. :) If you feel uncomfortable not spending more money on wire, 20 gauge Litz wire has a following. I doubt it is as good or better than magnet wire, but it does impress visitors.

Clark

[Mr. Widget]

I suggest to those who do have a high detail, high resolution system - why not give it a try?I'll put it on the to do list, but I remain quite skeptical. :)


Widget

[Ducatista47]

You are a good man, Mr Widget. The only reason I ever gave it a try was because I was skeptical. :)

Even if you find it simply does no harm, think of the money you will save in the future. And the copper you will free for likely developments like electric cars and a new generation of thermonuclear warheads. :D

If I were a snake oil type salesman I would say that since most of this magnet wire is made in the PRC, the inevitable doses of Melamine, chicken droppings and lead in the coatings have miracle audio properties.

Clark

[Ducatista47]

Another thread reminded me of this. The mysterious green oxidation that besets some cables will never happen with magnet wire. In fact, being designed for very hostile environments (heat, ozone, rapid movement, etc.) the motor winding type should be bulletproof to nearly any aging factor. I suspect its single insulated cousin is just as good regarding anything but very high temperatures - and even in that case the difference would apply only when tightly wound.

The bond between the insulation and the wire is so intimate that there is no way for anything to infiltrate.

Over the years I have noticed that even when a transformer's steel laminations are seriously rusted, the wire itself is pristine unless it has been burned out. Using magnet wire as audio wire is extremely low stress compared to its intended use.

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=225295#post225295

Clark

[scott fitlin]

The bond between the insulation and the wire is so intimate that there is no way for anything to infiltrate.



Clark[/quote]Not even for a THREESOME with a TEFLON? DAYUM!

:rotfl:




P.S. I'm sorry Clark, I couldn't help it I'm laughing so hard! It was just the use of the word "intimate" that got me to thinking!

:D

[Ian Mackenzie]

Scotty,

Not a much after that ride at Coney Island.

On cables I think it common knowledge that the cable should be proportioned to the current its passes.

How much current passes through a compression driver or a tweeter?

In JBL speaker manuals they make reference to selecting cables for bi wiring.

In the case of inductors it is also acknowledged that in some instances Solen litz chokes are the preferred type for HF filters

[scott fitlin]

Ian, I have NO DOUBT that certain types of wires, and different gauges make a difference to sound we hear.

And that some things just work better with some things etc.

THAT post before, Its just funnin around. I am in a great mood, its humor thats all.

I don't always adhere to the White lab Coat, and Strictly the Data, principle.

But, honestly, its just a BIT of fun.

:)

[Ducatista47]

On cables I think it common knowledge that the cable should be proportioned to the current its passes.

How much current passes through a compression driver or a tweeter? I have a feeling that in a sensitive system it doesn't do much good to use wire much larger than the voice coil wire. For short runs, anyway.

Look at a fire hose cable feeding a voice coil and you can see how nonsensical it must be from an electrical standpoint.



In the case of inductors it is also acknowledged that in some instances Solen litz chokes are the preferred type for HF filters
We have both used Hepa-Litz inductors. They really seem to do the job, do they not? At least they sure look cool. :)

Scotty, I sure set myself up for that one! I remember looking at the word and thinking, "Maybe not a good choice..."

Clark

[scott fitlin]

Well I will add something to this about wire ga, and so on, now I subscribe to the Richard Long sound, that was Studio54, and The Paradise Garage, and when we went the RLA route, they told my uncle 16ga,14ga,12ga, and 10ga. We were like HUH what?

So they explained it again;

Tweeters -16ga wire.

2in compression drivers -14ga wire.

15in woofers -12ga wire.

Subs - 10ga wire.

My uncle asked why that small wire on tweeters, and why in this order?

Because thats how you do it, is the answer we got.

So, we did it the way they said to do it.

But, these guys, the things they did, they had a reason for doing it, I know they did, because they did things that all the other sound people and some companies said you couldn't hear, or wasnt correct.

But, IF your club had an RLA system, your club had a sound NOT many others clubs had.

And the speaker wire runs in a club like Studio, this wasnt 10ft runs, or 25ft runs, THIS was a BIG club, an old 1920,s Opera house turned television soundstage in the 50,s that was turned into a club in the 70,s. And NOT ENOUGH SOUND was NOT a problem here, BUT this sound set the world on fire. Then he did that Paradise Garage, MAN, that was a place to go HEAR MUSIC.

And Richards big systems were pretty much ALL horn loaded cabinets, lens horns, (2397,s as well in the Garage), and Bullet, and Slot tweeters.

And to this day, I follow that wiring size they layed out to us years ago!

Basshorns, and HF horns is all they really had to do BIG rooms that NEEDED BIG sound. And they had the knack for this horn loaded stuff, for nightclub use. They did something, THERE was a reason they did it!

I don't knock it, to me, I have more than just a feeling theres something to some of this stuff, as just like me, I know when you guys say hear something, YOU HEAR SOMETHING, I know you do. Cause that is just the PASSION in us, AUDIO is the thing.

I still use that wiring size guide, and I havent any problems.

For sure, I like reading what you have to say!

:bouncy:

[Ian Mackenzie]

Ian, I have NO DOUBT that certain types of wires, and different gauges make a difference to sound we hear.

And that some things just work better with some things etc.

THAT post before, Its just funnin around. I am in a great mood, its humor thats all.

I don't always adhere to the White lab Coat, and Strictly the Data, principle.

But, honestly, its just a BIT of fun.

:)

I appreciate the guesture... its all quite amusing.:bouncy:

Its even more fun spending some else's cash to get it right :D

There are some honest people in the industry.

Its a case of talking the the right people and they believe me they are not the skeptics.


Ian

[scott fitlin]

I appreciate the guesture... its all quite amusing.:bouncy:

Its even more fun spending some else's cash to get it right :D

There are some honest people in the industry.

Its a case of talking the the right people and they believe me they are not the skeptics.


IanI never said I DON'T believe you.

I do believe wire and type, ans size makes a difference. I have heard things that audio profesionals tell me I cant hear.

As far as my earlier post, it was just some humor. I mean, hey, a cute laugh here and there, ?

[Allanvh5150]

If we get a caable made of aluminium, copper, gold, lead, silver........of say 0.1ohm resistance and apply a voltage to one end with a load at the other we will get current flow. Current flow as we know is when an electron moves from one molecule to another in the cable. All electrons are created equal. If the cable has the same type of sheath and the same overall resistance it cant alter the sound in any way. Good cables are usualy of very low resistance with a very low capacitance sheath. A poor cable may have a high capacitance sheath which would tend to roll off the high frequencies. Maybe this is the "detail" that we hear so much about. I would still tend towards a silicon rubber power flex which costs only a few dollars per metre. :)

[Ian Mackenzie]

I never said I DON'T believe you.

I do believe wire and type, and size makes a difference. I have heard things that audio profesionals tell me I cant hear.

As far as my earlier post, it was just some humor. I mean, hey, a cute laugh here and there, ?

It was a play on my previous employment in this area....not to be taken personally:D This stuff is my pet past time as is many .:)

I thought psot 59 was cool.

The first post asked for help and advise so I am helping with good advice.

We do get a number of new members asking the same thing and I see them getting Bumped like it was dumb question.

The only thing dumb are the responses.

A little scientific investigation and practical experience goes a long way.

Before you embark on fancy cables review the weakness of the speaker system overall.

The overall Dcr losses in the older vintage stock networks are quite significant and contribute to a loss in resolution and damping. Its in the order of an ohm in some of them.

So it helps to minimise these losses by starting with the rear terminals, then bypass the biamp switch or if you are more adventurous install an outboard crossover with high quality connectors.

Run the same type of cable from the amp to the actual drivers if possible.

If you apply a systematic approach your efforts will be rewarded.

But a one off flash in the pan with expensive cables may only make a change but not always an improvement.:)

I would recommend a make over of the network and the rest of it before spending serious money on cables for a 4341.;)

If you look at the project K2 stuff they have put a lot of effort in this area and it think the older systems can benefit.

As I said in the Japan thread Hifi is alive and well in Japan and people spend real money on cables and terminations. I saw numerous show cases of this stuff from $25 - over $1000 & some cable and terminals that are worth more than some peoples speakers I am sure! I think that is a little extreme and I would recommend a linear expenditure across the board.

If you own a $5000- $10,000 amp I think a reasonable outlay is justifiable with the above caveats. Of course if you owned that type of amp you might argue a more current model JBL is appropriate but people like these older systems for one reason or another.

Pm me for futher details

Ian

Loudspeakercable - help is wanted

Hi everyone;)

I am the happy owner of a set JBL 4341 loudspeakers in perfect condition (original blue) :).

Here is my setup:

Krell KAV400xi - Sony X707ES - Audio Alchemy DTI+XDP+PS1+PS4.
Cables: VDH MCD501 orig. + VDH DM300MK2.

I have used a friends Cimber 4VS which I think is very good for the 4341. But he needs it now:( I have then used VDH Clearwater, but...it doesn't work:banghead:.

Is here anyone who can me a good advice. Thanks!


Below in order is a pic of an older network board, a modified rear plate with updated terminals, terminations of an exrternal network, the stock interior of a 3145 network showing the stock splades fastened to steel bolts, the same 3145 network with new binding posts of good quality (but not over the top)

[WDJ]

I design and install systems on (mostly) miltary aircraft. Most avionics (read that as "flight critical") equipment uses wirewrap connections for the internal connections.

External connections are done with crimped pins/sockets in multipin connectors (128 pins in an area approx 1.3 inches in diameter. These routinely pass 250MHz signals with zero errors while being vibrated by jet/turboprop engines and shocked by violent (but FUN!!) manuvering.

Someone earlier in this thread commented on wiring standing up to humidity/salt exposure and the like. Proper stripping (nicked strands alter impedance), proper selection of connector (fast, cheap, right - you can pick just two), good installation (don't run power in parallel to signal) all matter.

We use waveguide to pass signals to/from radar systems and have gotten loss down to 1.3 dB at 10GHz for 15 foot runs using solid copper waveguide (WR90). Coax would measure nearly 6dB (or four time the loss of WR90) loss so it really does matter! Of course the WR90 has to be designed to within 1/8 inch and ordered months ahead of your need date!

So, to me the most important parts of cabling is to get good terminations (somebody used to include in their signature the totally correct comment "tin before crimp"), use the right connection type (lug, spade, etc) and use appropriate wire sizes (check out roger-russell.com for a good description of his/McIntosh testing).

enjoy,
Wayne

[hjames]

We use waveguide to pass signals to/from radar systems and have gotten loss down to 1.3 dB at 10GHz for 15 foot runs using solid copper waveguide (WR90). Coax would measure nearly 6dB (or four time the loss of WR90) loss so it really does matter! Of course the WR90 has to be designed to within 1/8 inch and ordered months ahead of your need date!
enjoy,
Wayne

VERY Cool!
Of course, 10GigaHertz signals are a bit different than what the audio buffs in these circles are concerned with, typically 20-20k - or even with some grace, say 20 to 100k ...

[scott fitlin]

Military spec parts. The BEST their is ON EARTH! But pricey, but what a bargain when you buy certain things surplus.

The tube audio guys LOVE the military spec AB carbon comps!

Sir, I'm going to remember that statement hereafter, and forevermore, " Tin Before Crimp " !

You taught me something today, I DID not know yesterday, thank you.

:thmbsup:

[Hoerninger]

VERY Cool!
... concerned with 20-20k - or even with some grace, say 20 to 100k ...

All DC a HF engineer would say. :)
____________
Peter

[scott fitlin]

So, then now I have a question to pose to the wire and termination people.

We all know of the hyper 9,s copper, and silver wire made today for audio use, claimed to be superior.

Now, about a year ago, I was perusing ebay, and came across some old late 50,s cloth jacketed 22awg, stranded copper wire.

So I bought a few small 25ft spools, and having grown up in Coney island, where, as a child, many buildings dating back to the teens and 20,s, and rdes dating back into the 20,s MOST definitely existed, in far greater numbers than what is left in existence there today. Under the kiddie park, on the boardwalk, behind the Wonder Wheel, they have an old service, SOLID COPPER BUSS BARS, The Wonder Wheels motor house with its two 1920 Westinghouse motors, my grandfathers building, The Tornado Roller Coaster built in 1925, The Childs Restaurant building on W12th and Surf Av, that todays houses the Sideshow By The Seashore, which my family had owned at one time, renovated it for sale, one of the things they did, was have an ancient KNIFE swith panel, with about 40 individual 15amp knife switches, fed by a HUGE master TWO blade knife switch, removed, and replaced with a modern breaker panel.

As well as my current building having an old service with HUGE cloth jacketed wire, my electrician said was 750,000 mcm, or something like that.

I have some familiarity with old things.

Anyway, I bought the spools of wire on a whim, they weren't all that pricey, and I thought well, it looks pretty.

One day, in the way before opening time of year, I have Chip in to dismantle, service, and reassemble some games that we have, that he made a buisiness out of servicing, and Chip is GOOD!

Chip also is quite adept with a soldering iron, and in my office I open up my package to show him this antique wire. He is like WOW thats some old stuff ya got there. What are going do wih it? Well, Chip, I want to make a pair of 10ft cables, RCA to spade lug, and I know YOU can solder. No prob, he says, when do you want em? I dunno, you got a weeks work here, anytime between now and then is cool for me! Not a prob, Scotty.

The following evening, he comes in, and says let me do the wires, then Ill get back on the games! Gimme a half hour. Ok, you got it!

So, he gets to it, and he calls me over, says you know this wire has an enamel coating on it, under the cloth jacket, and its smells musty as hell, where did u find this antique stuff? I was flippin thru ebay. Ahh, I gotcha.

Anyway, he finishes my cables, I run into the ride, take what I have in there out, install these, turn system on, quiet, begin to bring some music up, I hear something, I don't know what it is, but i hear something.

Chip comes in, he knows my sound, I start playing America-Horse With No Name. Something sounds good, even he says this sounds good why do you want to put those old wires in? Chip, I did put the old wires in, so, because he has to see it, I oblige, power down, change back, return on, it isnt the same.

Power down, change, power up, we spent an hour listening to music, WHAT a difference! This was the most edge free sound, clear yet not I dunno, that electronic tizz is not there at all, something like that!

1. Am I hearing what I think Im hearing?

2. Why am hearing this using old wire like this?

3. What was different about copper years ago, as compared to the copper we have today?

All I know is, THIS made some of the nicest sounding interconnects for my system I have ever heard!

Its Western Electric Brand wire, can someone please enlighten me as to what is really going on with this, and why?

OK FORUM, there it is, I fessed up, I have special wires too! Only where everyone else seems to be looking to tomorrow, I went back into the past!

Am I crazy, or is this old copper somehow different from todays?

Oh, and BTW, the wire is clean, no white corrosion, no green oxidation, no nothing, its clean! How is that even possible?

Nonetheless, I have these wires, and THEY do make a DIFFERENCE!

[BMWCCA]

Am I crazy, or is this old copper somehow different from todays?Yeah, they were made better —— just like those old amps! :moon: :thmbsup:

[scott fitlin]

Yeah, they were made better —— just like those old amps! :moon: :thmbsup:Yeah, BUT U SHOULD hear this old wire, feeding THOSE new amps!

Metalurgically there has to be a bit of a better explanation than this!

:blink:

At least i hope there is!

:bouncy:

[BMWCCA]

Metalurgically there has to be a bit of a better explanation than this!

:blink:

At least i hope there is!Maybe you're just too young to understand that lots of stuff gets better with age! For instance I now get a 5% discount on groceries on Tuesday.
Reminds me, I have to go shopping. :drive:

[scott fitlin]

Maybe you're just too young to understand that lots of stuff gets better with age! For instance I now get a 5% discount on groceries on Tuesday.
Reminds me, I have to go shopping. :drive:So your title is true? You really are a "SENIOR" member! :D

:duck:

[Ducatista47]

So, to me the most important parts of cabling is to get good terminations (somebody used to include in their signature the totally correct comment "tin before crimp"), use the right connection type (lug, spade, etc) and use appropriate wire sizes (check out roger-russell.com for a good description of his/McIntosh testing).

Wayne
That was Zilch. It caused quite a dust-up in an older thread, one that could be a close relative of this discussion. There are many great posts in it. #18 by Steve Schell is a standout for me. Then again, any post by Steve is. #33 by moldyoldy is a great reference.

I admit that it is one of my favorite threads in the forums.

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=12870

While we are at it, does anyone know a lot about litz wire and could they share it here?

Edit: I was just reading about it on Wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Litz_wire
It reminded me of the right hand column, "Maximum frequency for
100% skin depth for solid conductor copper," on the chart I referenced earlier.
http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=12870
It seems the best solid wire gauge for using all the copper at frequencies up to 27khz is - ahem - #20. As in # 20 magnet wire, the gauge I find most recommended for high efficiency Full Range drivers.

Anything larger than 19 gauge does not use all the copper for all the audio frequencies. I don't know if that maters, but it sounds cool. Either that is good because none of the copper is unused by any frequency and there is no extra metal to affect the signal, or bad because more energy is carried in the lower frequencies and they need more copper than the higher frequencies.

The bottom line is that the skin effect does exist at audio frequencies, and it vanishes at 19 or 20 (and above) gauge solid wire. That corresponds to 100% skin depth at 21 or 27 khz. So if you need heavier cable than 19 or 20 gauge, constructing "audio" litz wire of 20-30 gauge solid wires would make sense. That seems to be engineering science, not snake oil. Just don't ask me if any of this audibly matters for audio wire. :D

The Hepa-litz inductors use magnet wire, it appears. The fancier, much more costly insulation found on audiophile litz wire is probably not even as good at what it is supposed to do.

Clark

[scott fitlin]

Howdy yall, at dads in Austin Tx!

I would love to hear some comments on my interconnects made from 1950,s Western electric wire, as well.

ANYONE!

Cause to me, these are NICE sounding, I have NO IDEA why this should be, and I have NO ryhme or reason to it, either.

But, someone must have some bit of info, and I LIKE these wires, alot!

:bouncy:

[JBL 4645]

Military spec parts. The BEST their is ON EARTH! But pricey, but what a bargain when you buy certain things surplus.

The tube audio guys LOVE the military spec AB carbon comps!

Sir, I'm going to remember that statement hereafter, and forevermore, " Tin Before Crimp " !

You taught me something today, I DID not know yesterday, thank you.

:thmbsup:

Isn’t there that place out in the desert that has spare aircraft parts? I think there are several not sure of the names but I think there on the west coast side to the USA.

[BMWCCA]

Isn’t there that place out in the desert that has spare aircraft parts? I think there are several not sure of the names but I think there on the west coast side to the USA.I've been to one in Arizona, years ago. Still have the helicopter clock I got there to mount to my motorcycle.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aircraft_boneyard

http://www.satellite-sightseer.com/id/1426

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c1/B52sdestroyed.jpg

[jcrobso]

The reason we use stranded wire for speakers is because of the skin effect.
14ga sold wire would not be good for audio, but 14ga stranded is.
Yes there have been problems over the years with plastic insulation, chemical break downs etc. John

[Ducatista47]

I may have misunderstood your comment on the skin effect, but I assume you mean that smaller individual wires would allow more skin effect transmission than solid wire of the same overall gauge. I think the skin effect at audio frequencies might not be very much in play with stranded, bundled wire. If each strand were insulated from the others, that would certainly be true. I admit I do not know to what extent a cable of uninsulated strands would behave as a single wire. My guess would be significantly in audio frequencies and less so at high frequencies.

Notice the construction of Solen Hepa-litz inductors, carefully stranded magnet wire. Really tough insulation bonded to single strand copper conductors.

Clark