What's "real" bass??

[Doc Mark]

Greetings, Friends,

Today, whilst listening to some Diana Krall CD's, I gave thought to, exactly, what might be considered "real" bass reproduction. I've long thought that this most certainly depended upon what your musical background, and thus your musical expectations, might be.

For myself, I played music professionally for about 30 years, and in that time, worked as a singing drummer, and also as a lead vocalist/front man, for large horn-oriented bands. To me, bass does not sound "real", unless it's the same as what I heard from the bass player, who was always situated right next to my old Ludwig drum set. Same goes for bands with horns, and also for recorded drums, too. Any speaker which cannot accurately reproduce what I heard, and almost more importantly, felt, during those years, is not reproducing "real" bass.

Others of you may have different requirements, stemming from very different musical backgrounds. So, let's hear what your expectations are, please, and what experiences in your life have helped to create those expectations of what you consider "real" bass reproduction. I very much look forward to hearing what you have to say, Friends! Thanks, in advance, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

[grumpy]

"Real" Bass? (random thoughts on how I listen sometimes, not intended as a definition)

For "bass viol or guitar" instruments -

Being able to discern:

1) if Acoustic Bass or Electric Bass (some systems don't even resolve at this level)
2) what kind of bass (e.g., P-bass/Jazz vs. Rick, flat-wound, vs. roto strings, ...)
3) space the bass was recorded in

All very dependent on the recording quality and musical style.

Other criteria for:
organ (harmonics) or synth (filter whining) bass ...
kick-drum or even large tom "bass"... percussiveness vs. boom...
category I'll call "sound effects", that while not necessarily musical, can be an
involving element in a recording, especially "live" (vs. studio)

Note that much of the info needed for what I'd call "real" bass doesn't necessarily
extend to 20Hz (often), and -depends- on the balance and representation of mids and
even treble. At volume, a good visceral whump in the chest or pant-leg flutter can
add some 'realism', ... or it can cover up a lack of it.

:blah:

Have some experience playing bass-range instruments,
running sound FOH/foldback (most recently for a 20-piece big band
group), and hobbyist recording.

[Hoerninger]

It is a great experience to listen to an open baffle bass in the garden.
It made me thinking.
Btw I am a lover of full horn systems when done carefully.
___________
Peter

[hjames]

Emma officiated a wedding in the George Washington National Forest a month or so back, tho it was drizzling and raining, the live music was quite nice!
Good Bass!

[Tom Brennan]

Well it depends on what the music is I reckon. I've played drums in rock and roll bands and most of the music I listen to is rock and roll, soul and movie soundtracks (I'm talking the music not the sound effects---Ben-Hur, El Cid, South Pacific, West Side Story etc.). None of which need to go below 50hz to sound good.

The best bass playing rig I ever heard was a Dual Showman using dual D-140s in the Fender sealed box, I doubt that rig was going much below 70hz or so but it sure sounded good. I doubt that the Ampeg R-100 I play bass through goes very low either but it's a nice sounding amp.

One of the best reproductions of recorded electric bass I heard was listening to the Blues Brothers laserdisc mono through an old vertical vent Altec 825 cabinet with the original 803 woofer. Now I KNOW that wasn't going deep but it was doing something right for listening to Duck Dunn.

I've owned Rogers, Gretsch and Sonor drumkits with 20, 22 and 24" bassdrums. The 24 Sonor sounded like thunder but the little 20" Rogers had a punch and clarity I really liked. I knew a fella that played an old Camco kit with an 18, it sounded very nice.

What this translates to in speakers for me is if I can get 40hz with excellent clarity and dynamics I'm good.

[johnaec]

The best bass playing rig I ever heard was a Dual Showman using dual D-140s in the Fender sealed box, I doubt that rig was going much below 70hz or so but it sure sounded good.......What this translates to in speakers for me is if I can get 40hz with excellent clarity and dynamics I'm good.Well, seeing as 40 hz is about low E on a bass guitar, I'd bet that Dual Showman was putting out below 70 hz.

Way back when, Bell Labs did some experiments that demonstrated the fact that the human ear is able to "synthesize" sounds an octave below what's really there, if your ear is "expecting" to hear it. They used this phenomenon to much benefit in telephone systems, where they were able to squeeze much more data into telephone transmissions by leaving the low octaves off - the same holds true in radio, like CB and emergency radios and such. Even though the low octaves are left off, the human ear will "synthesize" the missing frequencies, resulting in inteligible conversations even though the low frequencies have been left out.

I wonder if this same phenomenon is what many people experience when they like the bass, even when the lowest octaves might be missing?

John

[toddalin]

"Real Bass" is the artillery fire I can hear/feel at Camp Pendleton beyond the hills/mountains over 60 miles away that shakes my garage doors.

[Ducatista47]

Both of my brushes with nature being very loud left a lasting impression. The last one was sort of a nature-techno mix. Lightning struck a pole top transformer - those large gray cans filled with oil, I think - about two hundred feet away. The lightning (thunder) was plenty loud by itself, but the transformer blew up and that was a life changing experience. Everything, not just the ground, shook with a deep motion. It was like the neighborhood rang like a bell, but at very low frequency.

My other encounter was more personal. I was working up on my girlfriend's roof many years ago, on Elmhurst Road in Mount Prospect, Illinois. A sudden storm came up and lightning struck the roof right across the street. Strangely, I saw the whole thing. I happened to be looking right at it and my visual pictures (we see in changing "frames") caught all the right moments. The stepped leader came down, establishing the conducting channel. It was glowing brightly and easy to see in detail. As soon as it made contact with the roof, the return stroke expanded the channel to what looked like four inches across and became unbearably bright, all the way to the cloud, I'm sure, but I wasn't looking up. That was the boom, but I didn't hear it! It was so loud I heard a quick crackling hiss and then nothing. My "sensors" overloaded and all was silent, although afterward I could hear normally immediately.

So where was the bass? The concussion was so terrific I was knocked back and it was all I could do to stay on the roof. To this day I am never really physically impressed by chest thumping bass. It just does not compare to that giant hand swatting me like a fly, all with nothing but sound, the movement of air. But I can appreciate bass you can feel but not hear!

Back to topic, double bass - string bass - live is my benchmark for "real" bass. I am still waiting for a system that will do it justice. Even the Patricia Barber recordings pale next to the real thing, and I have heard them on some very good systems.

The XRCD24 disc Super Double Bass - The Artistry of Gary Karr, is a treat though. Bass and pipe organ. The CD is a collection from twenty years of recordings. On the right system, if it exists, it just might do the job. LIM XR 007. Mastered with loving care and consummate skill by the best team in Japan.

Clark

[grumpy]

"Real Bass" is the artillery fire I can hear/feel at Camp Pendleton beyond the hills/mountains over 60 miles away that shakes my garage doors.Heh... or nearly every dingety dang night at 9:25pm from Disneyland.

Hi Clark, good you weren't near the path of least resistance :eek:
I'll have a look for that JVC disc.... thanks. A good acoustic bass
recording/playback can bring on the goosebumps.

[Ducatista47]

No problem, Grumpy. Gary Karr is a little different. He plays the bass like a cello. Hearing those notes coming from that huge body is a new experience. If you have the volume nicely cranked for the first selection, Amazing Grace, your system's bass reproduction and macrodynamics will be tested when the pipe organ takes a turn, and you had better be holding onto something. The entire recording is breathtakingly, achingly beautiful to hear if you like this sort of music. Hopefully your CD player does 24 bit. Most of the sampled albums were recorded in halls selected for their acoustics instead of recording studios. Hearing the rooms is frankly thrilling. These producers and engineers are on to something, and Vega Hall where the album Adagio d' Albinoni was recorded sounds fascinating in particular. I have heard that on LP.

Fireworks are something else. My favorite is still the aerial bombs. Around here they use one to wake you up and begin things. Everyone jumps...:D

Another acoustic reality check, a personal favorite of mine, is to stand right next to a railway locomotive as it accelerates. Does the Earth move for you too?

I'm stubborn. I seldom take the path of least resistance.

Clark

[Hoerninger]

... over 60 miles away that shakes my garage doors.
:blink: Uff.
For us non-front-liners there are some soundfiles by Tom Daniel:
http://www.danleysoundlabs.com/images/sound%20thingy.jpg http://www.danleysoundlabs.com/technical%20downloads.html
(Care for the warning near the bottom of the page.)


I wonder if this same phenomenon is what many people experience when they like the bass, even when the lowest octaves might be missing?

Some explanation you will find here, (unfortunately there is no direct replacement for the no longer available IC which was not expensive):
http://headwize.com/projects/showfile.php?file=meier5_prj.htm
The attached wave file contains
5 seconds 100 Hz sine wave
5 seconds 50 Hz sine wave
5 seconds 25 Hz sine wave
5 seconds 100 Hz sine wave + bass enhancer
5 seconds 50 Hz sine wave + bass enhancer
5 seconds 25 Hz sine wave + bass enhancer
____________
Peter

[Rolf]

For me, ... "real bass" or real sound, is what I have heard over the years at concerts with different artists. What I remember best is the very good sound on FZ concerts.

That is why I love my JBL's so much, as I have never heard any other systems come so close to the real thing. That said, I know there is impossible to get the exact feeling at home as on a concert, but the 4343's are very close.

That is why I love listening to "live" recordings, tho I know there has been added and mixed a lot on the record (CD).

I do not, like many of you ever played in a band. I can't play any instrument, but I have always loved listening to music, and listening experience I have.

[Hoerninger]

The XRCD24 disc Super Double Bass - The Artistry of Gary Karr, is a treat though. Bass and pipe organ. ... On the right system, if it exists, it just might do the job.
The audio samples (mp3) show, it is very demanding!
http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/jazz/detail/-/hnum/1088935

Clark, thank you for the tipp - and sharing your experience!
___________
Peter

[JBLRaiser]

Greetings, Friends,

Today, whilst listening to some Diana Krall CD's, I gave thought to, exactly, what might be considered "real" bass reproduction. I've long thought that this most certainly depended upon what your musical background, and thus your musical expectations, might be.

For myself, I played music professionally for about 30 years, and in that time, worked as a singing drummer, and also as a lead vocalist/front man, for large horn-oriented bands. To me, bass does not sound "real", unless it's the same as what I heard from the bass player, who was always situated right next to my old Ludwig drum set. Same goes for bands with horns, and also for recorded drums, too. Any speaker which cannot accurately reproduce what I heard, and almost more importantly, felt, during those years, is not reproducing "real" bass.

Others of you may have different requirements, stemming from very different musical backgrounds. So, let's hear what your expectations are, please, and what experiences in your life have helped to create those expectations of what you consider "real" bass reproduction. I very much look forward to hearing what you have to say, Friends! Thanks, in advance, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

Is FELT not heard.

[1audiohack]

Clark and I have two of the same benchmarks.

When I was much younger we lived in a railroad town, we used to climb the trestles over the rivers, sit on the crossmembers in the center, and wait for the freighters to come out of the yard. The thrill of an eight engine unit at full power right below you is sonically thrillling. That would in fact be tough to duplicate. I never claimed to be very smart!

I have also been in close proximity to lightning, twice. Once was hit by the flying bark from the tree it hit less than 15 feet away. It took a few seconds to figure out what had happened.

If I remember right, 194dB is the thearetical limit for air to transmit sound before becoming overmodulated. A lightning bolt heats the air so fast that the expanding wave, the CRACK, leaves behind an almost complete vacuum, the air rushing backto restore equilibrium is the BOOM. More of an N wave. I'm pretty sure that would be impossible to duplicate.

I don't know if it's real bass, but it is a real LF benchmark.

[Hoerninger]

Crank up the big monitors:
Starting Train (http://www.danleysoundlabs.com/TrainStart.wav) & Full Coal train (http://www.danleysoundlabs.com/Full%20Coal%20Train.zip)

___________________
Peter ;) I'll go for a sub ...

[JBL 4645]

Greetings, Friends,

Today, whilst listening to some Diana Krall CD's, I gave thought to, exactly, what might be considered "real" bass reproduction. I've long thought that this most certainly depended upon what your musical background, and thus your musical expectations, might be.

Every Good Wish,
Doc



I have a sample track from Diana Krall “they can’t take that from me” from the 1999 dts six-track CD vol 1.

It’s a slow moody song a bit “blue” and laidback with nice bass rhythm and vocal range is remarkable crystal clear due to the bass string instruments and its mixing.

Vocals are placed over left and right with string bass. There’s a slight reverb on the vocals that doesn’t draw too much attention.

Centre channel has low level mix level and drier vocal track, bass sting as few plucks thou not as high level as left and right.

Stereo surrounds has slightly higher reverb echo as her silky voice flutters away

LFE.1 carries the bass string track for extra low end, thou it was happily being played over JBL control 5 left and right.

[hjames]

...
Back to topic, double bass - string bass - live is my benchmark for "real" bass. I am still waiting for a system that will do it justice. Even the Patricia Barber recordings pale next to the real thing, and I have heard them on some very good systems.

The XRCD24 disc Super Double Bass - The Artistry of Gary Karr, is a treat though. Bass and pipe organ. The CD is a collection from twenty years of recordings. On the right system, if it exists, it just might do the job. LIM XR 007. Mastered with loving care and consummate skill by the best team in Japan.

Clark

Thanks - the Gary Karr CD arrived yesterday and we gave it a play before dinner - very very nice, even at lower volume - I'm looking forward to some relaxing time when I can give it a bit more gain and just let it pull me in - even with our little 15" woofers I can tell its awesome ...
thanks for the tip, Clark!

[oznob]

http://www.elusivedisc.com/prodinfo.asp?number=TELDA70541

These recodings WILL test the limits of your audio system! I don't know if you would classify the cannons as "real bass", but your woofers will certainly be working overtime!

Hey Doc, first time I heard the original direct disc recording of this was in a stereo shop in Sacramento, circa 1979 or so. The salesman was doing a demo with some customers and had the speaker selector on a small pair of Infinity towers. I believe he was using some big SAE mono-blocs with clip lights. He may have had it a bit too loud as when the cannons went off, the clip lights shot to the top and I swear they were glowing. The woffers jumped out to the end of the forcing cones and lterally started to sizzle, AWESOME! The only thing the salesman could say was, whoops. Now, the reason I brought this up. The salesman switched to a pait of L300's and they took everything the orchestra could throw at them and was asking for more! I have been a JBL fan ever since!

Mark

[Doc Mark]

Morning, All,

I've very much enjoyed all the comments and thoughts, on this thread! Thanks to everyone who has jumped in with their thoughts on "real bass"! Some of the comments have been really fun, too, as well as educational!

Now that we have our new L300's here at home, and we will end up with another pair, in the form of the 4333's from Grumpy, I'm wondering of an additional subwoofer, using that JBL 2242HPL that I found, is even warranted, at all? What would adding such a subwoofer, crossed at, say, 50HZ, or less, offer me in terms of more bass reproduction? From the spec sheets, it seems that this system, properly built, would be around 10db down at 22HZ, unequalized. Is this offering me anything that I'm not already getting with the L300's, and especially if I add the 4333's in the rear of the room? I know that all of these systems, L300, 4333-4645C, are supposed to be around 3db down at 35HZ, right, but I only have a -10db spec for the 4645C. Worth adding to the L300/4333 mix? What say you, Friends? Thanks, very much, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

[Doc Mark]

http://www.elusivedisc.com/prodinfo.asp?number=TELDA70541

These recodings WILL test the limits of your audio system! I don't know if you would classify the cannons as "real bass", but your woofers will certainly be working overtime!

Hey Doc, first time I heard the original direct disc recording of this was in a stereo shop in Sacramento, circa 1979 or so. The salesman was doing a demo with some customers and had the speaker selector on a small pair of Infinity towers. I believe he was using some big SAE mono-blocs with clip lights. He may have had it a bit too loud as when the cannons went off, the clip lights shot to the top and I swear they were glowing. The woffers jumped out to the end of the forcing cones and lterally started to sizzle, AWESOME! The only thing the salesman could say was, whoops. Now, the reason I brought this up. The salesman switched to a pait of L300's and they took everything the orchestra could throw at them and was asking for more! I have been a JBL fan ever since!

Mark

Hey, Mark,

Great for hear from you! I really appreciate your comments on the L300's, and also the link you supplied to the 1812 stuff! I'm going to order it, forthwith, and also the Gary Karr CD. Both of them look to be well worth adding to our music library!!

Like you, I have watched, and listened, as uninformed audio salesmen in the 1970's, helped to destroy some fairly nice speakers. My own experience was with a pair of L65's. The salesman had them going SO loud, that the poor little woofers were jumping and popping until I thought they would fly right out of the enclosures!! I felt sorry for those poor little L65's, and felt disgust for the salesman!!

I'm very glad to know that the L300's "can take it", and come back for more! Regis, from whom we bought these wonderful speakers, said much the same thing, in that we would "give up long before the speakers do"! Cool!! In truth, our normal listening volume is not that loud. But, as I mentioned the other day, we did find out that the L300's, and other such speakers, are so clean, that they are really playing louder than you think they are! So, for us, caution is advised, and we try to keep the db's down to something that we can live with, and still not hurt our ears anymore than they've already been hurt (playing loud music professionally for around 30 years, and shooting guns without hearing protection as an uninformed youth ..... the past comes back to bite you on the arse, everytime!!!). ;):blink::bouncy:

One thing we dearly love about the L300's, is that they don't have to be blowing the glass out of the place, in order to sound good! To both Sweet Bride and me, the way we've now got them setup, they sound true, natural, sweet, open, crisp (but not TOO crisp ;)), and accurate, even at very low volumes. When we crank them up, they keep all that detail and quality, without the least bit of strain!! How could you not love that, eh??!!!

Thanks, again, for your comments, Mark. Much appreciated, and I'll be ordering the CD this morning, along with that of Gary Karr! Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc (who still has his 1965 set of Ludwig drums, with Rogers hardware, and his Gon-Bops congas, and other such percussive truck!) :bouncy::bouncy::D

[grumpy]

2242...
1) you'll get some gain from your room
2) you can add some eq if you really need to... it'll handle more power than you
can stand indoors.
3) tie down anything loose.

There's a visceral sense of 'there-ness', sometimes startling, that can come with a well
integrated sub, or subs and recordings that have content in the bottom octaves. It's easy
to over do, and can be surprisingly difficult to do well.

Glad you're having fun :)

[oznob]

Hey, Mark,

Great for hear from you! I really appreciate your comments on the L300's, and also the link you supplied to the 1812 stuff! I'm going to order it, forthwith, and also the Gary Karr CD. Both of them look to be well worth adding to our music library!!

Like you, I have watched, and listened, as uninformed audio salesmen in the 1970's, helped to destroy some fairly nice speakers. My own experience was with a pair of L65's. The salesman had them going SO loud, that the poor little woofers were jumping and popping until I thought they would fly right out of the enclosures!! I felt sorry for those poor little L65's, and felt disgust for the salesman!!

I'm very glad to know that the L300's "can take it", and come back for more! Regis, from whom we bought these wonderful speakers, said much the same thing, in that we would "give up long before the speakers do"! Cool!! In truth, our normal listening volume is not that loud. But, as I mentioned the other day, we did find out that the L300's, and other such speakers, are so clean, that they are really playing louder than you think they are! So, for us, caution is advised, and we try to keep the db's down to something that we can live with, and still not hurt our ears anymore than they've already been hurt (playing loud music professionally for around 30 years, and shooting guns without hearing protection as an uninformed youth ..... the past comes back to bite you on the arse, everytime!!!). ;):blink::bouncy:

One thing we dearly love about the L300's, is that they don't have to be blowing the glass out of the place, in order to sound good! To both Sweet Bride and me, the way we've now got them setup, they sound true, natural, sweet, open, crisp (but not TOO crisp ;)), and accurate, even at very low volumes. When we crank them up, they keep all that detail and quality, without the least bit of strain!! How could you not love that, eh??!!!

Thanks, again, for your comments, Mark. Much appreciated, and I'll be ordering the CD this morning, along with that of Gary Karr! Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc (who still has his 1965 set of Ludwig drums, with Rogers hardware, and his Gon-Bops congas, and other such percussive truck!) :bouncy::bouncy::D

Well,
From one "old" drummer to another, congrats on your L300's and 4333's, great speakers! Just be careful with that recording. Your speakers are longer in the tooth than they were 30 years ago.

I still have my old Leedy bass and Supraphonic snare. Wish I still had my old Gretch butcher block toms, great tone and very well built! On a good system, you can hear Bonham's speed king pedal squeeking on "Good times/Bad times." I dumped my old "squeek king" for a nice Ghost pedal. Wish I still had that as well! Rogers had some of the best hardware of the day. I think I had one of their inter-locking cymbal stands at one time?

Take care and happy listening!

Mark

[Doc Mark]

2242...
1) you'll get some gain from your room
2) you can add some eq if you really need to... it'll handle more power than you
can stand indoors.
3) tie down anything loose.

There's a visceral sense of 'there-ness', sometimes startling, that can come with a well
integrated sub, or subs and recordings that have content in the bottom octaves. It's easy
to over do, and can be surprisingly difficult to do well.

Glad you're having fun :)

Hey, Grumpy,

Thanks, very much, for a nicely reasoned, and well thought-out response! In our short friendship, this is what I've already grown to expect, and to very much like, about you, Sir! You are very right, in that I'm having a ball with all this JBL stuff!! It's been a project in waiting, since back in the early '80's, when I built my very first 8 cubic foot enclosures, (after having heard those first L300's!) Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc!

[Doc Mark]

Well,
From one "old" drummer to another, congrats on your L300's and 4333's, great speakers! Just be careful with that recording. Your speakers are longer in the tooth than they were 30 years ago.

I still have my old Leedy bass and Supraphonic snare. Wish I still had my old Gretch butcher block toms, great tone and very well built! On a good system, you can hear Bonham's speed king pedal squeeking on "Good times/Bad times." I dumped my old "squeek king" for a nice Ghost pedal. Wish I still had that as well! Rogers had some of the best hardware of the day. I think I had one of their inter-locking cymbal stands at one time?

Take care and happy listening!

Mark

Hey, Mark,

"From one old drummer to another", INDEED!! :applaud::D Sounds like you still have a very good setup, which is great. My Uncle was a fine drummer in his day, and actually won a Gene Krup national rudiment competition in his younger years. He used Slingerland drums, and loved both Krupa, and also Buddy Rich, both of whom I, too, enjoyed very much.

I love your comments on the squeeky Speed King pedal! I still have mine, but once I tried the Rogers adjustable pedal, retired the SK to the trap case, where it still lives today. I liked the Rogers hardware much better than what Ludwig was offering at that time. Still have it all, just haven't set it all up and played, for many years.

By the way, I appreciate your advice to be careful with my old L300's! Both them, and the 4333's, have 2235H's in them, instead of the older, original woofers. Still, I'm going to keep them both for a very long time, and so value them quite highly. You words of caution are appreciated, Mark! Talk to you later, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

[Doc Mark]

Thanks - the Gary Karr CD arrived yesterday and we gave it a play before dinner - very very nice, even at lower volume - I'm looking forward to some relaxing time when I can give it a bit more gain and just let it pull me in - even with our little 15" woofers I can tell its awesome ...
thanks for the tip, Clark!

Hi, Heather,

Could you please tell me how to order this CD? I've tried to find it, and so far, cannot do so. I did order the 1812 CD that Mark suggested, and would love to add the Gary Karr CD to our music library. Thanks, very much, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

[toddalin]

Morning, All,

Now that we have our new L300's here at home, and we will end up with another pair, in the form of the 4333's from Grumpy, I'm wondering of an additional subwoofer, using that JBL 2242HPL that I found, is even warranted, at all? What would adding such a subwoofer, crossed at, say, 50HZ, or less, offer me in terms of more bass reproduction?

Every Good Wish,
Doc

Oh yeah! I can't imagine that the L300s are really producing much (if any) more bass than my L200s with 2235s and one port plugged, and I sure note a difference when I put on my subs. If your sub is up to it, you will too. ;)

[toddalin]

BTW, if you want to hear/feel "foundation shaking bass," put on "Cans and Brahms" on Yes "Fragile" on DVD-Audio. It will shake your house if your sub is up to it. :bouncy:

[Doc Mark]

Hey, Todd,

Thanks, very much!! Every bit of info, and every opinion, is more fuel for my decision on this! Where do you cross your subwoofer to those L200's of yours? I was thinking of doing it quite low, around 40-50HZ. What do you think? Thanks, again, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

[toddalin]

Hey, Todd,

Thanks, very much!! Every bit of info, and every opinion, is more fuel for my decision on this! Where do you cross your subwoofer to those L200's of yours? I was thinking of doing it quite low, around 40-50HZ. What do you think? Thanks, again, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc


Depends on your intent. If you are going to use your sub for Dolby Digital/DTS/THX/Etc. you really need to cross it over at the 80 Hz standard or you will loose information. If it is just to augment music you can cross it over lower.

That said, I have my Yamaha RX-Z9 set for the subwoofer output crossed over at 80 Hz, the standard.
This drives the (God forbid) W15GTI and is powered by a Crown PSA-XH bridged for mono, pushing ~800+ watts RMS into the 12 ohm load.

But for the really, really, really deep bass, my Sunfire Signiture really plumbs the depths and can go to <18Hz at >105 dB. This sub is also driven off the Yamaha sub output, but I typically set its crossover down around 60 Hz.

BTW, even with the 2235s, in my room, when the Yamaha goes though its routine of automatically setting the parameters/room eq/etc., it often says that the L200/2235s are "small" rather than "large" speakers.

I have to scale back on the horn to get the Yamaha to recognize these as "large" speakers. I wonder if it would do the same with the L300s.

[hjames]

Be careful listening to the words of Toddalin (that blasphemer!)
It is said he is unclean because he has CAR SPEAKERZ in his living room ... :D
(he also has NON-JBLS in there too ... lord knows what they do at night!!
EVIL THINGS with THX and other letters!)
:applaud:

He also is rumoured to bash lizards and toads!!

(Just kidding - he's a real nice guy and I really wish I could come see his trains and system - sounds awesome!!!)

For our home system - we have biamped 4341s in the front L & R - they are 4-ways (very similar to 4343) with 2235s on the low end. We don't use a sub when playing music - tho I do have a B-380 and an M&K Volkswoofer as subs on the LFE channel when we play TV or movies - it adds a bit of bottom for special-effect low end, but we think its overkill for music in our room.

Your mileage may vary ...

[Robh3606]

Now that we have our new L300's here at home, and we will end up with another pair, in the form of the 4333's from Grumpy, I'm wondering of an additional subwoofer, using that JBL 2242HPL that I found, is even warranted, at all? What would adding such a subwoofer, crossed at, say, 50HZ, or less, offer me in terms of more bass reproduction? From the spec sheets, it seems that this system, properly built, would be around 10db down at 22HZ, unequalized. Is this offering me anything that I'm not already getting with the L300's, and especially if I add the 4333's in the rear of the room? I know that all of these systems, L300, 4333-4645C, are supposed to be around 3db down at 35HZ, right, but I only have a -10db spec for the 4645C. Worth adding to the L300/4333 mix? What say you, Friends? Thanks, very much, and God Bless!

It doesn't really mater what we say. Do you feel you need a sub with them?? That's the bottom line. I use 2235's in my 4344 and they don't need a sub in my room at least. Certainly not with music. For HT I use B380 on LFE and it works just fine. If I was going to run the 4344 for HT use I would use the 4344 full range with an LFE sub. For HT you really want that 20-30hz shake for music?? How are you going to be using them??

Rob:)

[jbl]

I'm hooked on all this low bass stuff since I replaced the 2225H with the 2235H.:applaud:

[Doc Mark]

It doesn't really mater what we say. Do you feel you need a sub with them?? That's the bottom line. I use 2235's in my 4344 and they don't need a sub in my room at least. Certainly not with music. For HT I use B380 on LFE and it works just fine. If I was going to run the 4344 for HT use I would use the 4344 full range with an LFE sub. For HT you really want that 20-30hz shake for music?? How are you going to be using them??

Rob:)

Hello, Rob,

Thanks, very much, for that thought, because you make an outstanding point! In our environment, most of our listening is going to consist of music. We do play DVD's through our system, and that's when I feel a subwoofer might come in handy, for the soundtracks that might need it.

However, that having been said, I'm absolutely THRILLED with the depth, detail, and fullness of the bass we're getting out of the L300's! For music, barring the super techno stuff, which we really don't play on our system, as it stands, the L300 system will very probably cover about 90% of what we play through it. We've not played any of our DVD's with heavy cannon fire, of other such stuff, but will do so soon. I ordered the 1812 Overture CD today, so that will offer some interesting listening! The last time we head it live, it was being played by the Minnesota Orchestra, in front of the Capital building, with a bank of real cannons directly behind them, and fireworks being shot off behind the Capital!!! OH ME, OH MY, THAT was fun, and VERY exciting!!! :bouncy::bouncy::bouncy::bouncy:

Since we have the 4333's, too, and that JBL 18", I have given thought to making our system into a HT, or sorts. But, I would very probably not run out and replace our HK AVR20 receiver, in order to get more power. Again, this is just something I'm exploring, but it's good to get the opinion of those who have already trod this path. That's why I asked here at LH, and that's why I so much appreciate your thoughts, and those of our other Brothers and Sisters!

We'll see how things turn out, as I'm a bit farther down the road. Thanks, again, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

[hjames]

Hello, Rob,
But, I would very probably not run out and replace our HK AVR20 receiver, in order to get more power. Again, this is just something I'm exploring, but it's good to get the opinion of those who have already trod this path. That's why I asked here at LH, and that's why I so much appreciate your thoughts, and those of our other Brothers and Sisters!


Every Good Wish,
Doc

I had an older JVC receiver before I updated all of this over the last 2 years. It didn't have preamp outs - so once Zilch taught me how to do the biamp stuff, I did upgrade to an HK AVR 335 that has preamp outs - when I wanted to bimap it, I just pulled the speakers off the HK front speaker connectors, ran the L and R preamp outs into an electronic crossover to split off the bass under about 240 HZ, fed that to a JBL amp that feeds just the 2235s, and ... my goodness, the bass sound was VERY improved with a dedicated amp for the woofers! The high side of the active crossover goes to a smaller amp that feeds the passive crossover and the remaining 3 drivers in the box. All in all, it was a great improvement in sound putting the woofers on a dedicated amp.

But you have time for all that later ... this might be the way to go for those 4333s you've been talking about!

[Doc Mark]

I had an older JVC receiver before I updated all of this over the last 2 years. It didn't have preamp outs - so once Zilch taught me how to do the biamp stuff, I did upgrade to an HK AVR 335 that has preamp outs - when I wanted to bimap it, I just pulled the speakers off the HK front speaker connectors, ran the L and R preamp outs into an electronic crossover to split off the bass under about 240 HZ, fed that to a JBL amp that feeds just the 2235s, and ... my goodness, the bass sound was VERY improved with a dedicated amp for the woofers! The high side of the active crossover goes to a smaller amp that feeds the passive crossover and the remaining 3 drivers in the box. All in all, it was a great improvement in sound putting the woofers on a dedicated amp.

But you have time for all that later ... this might be the way to go for those 4333s you've been talking about!

Evening, Heather,

You are oh, so right, about biamping!! I've done it for years, with my little subwoofer/satellite systems, and very much enjoyed those systems. The L300's are not setup for that, and I don't want to mess with them. But, as you say, I'm already planning on biamping the 4333's. I have two Crown DC-300A's that will run each 2235H, in mono-mode. Then, one of the HK amps will run the mids and highs in the 4333. I think that should sound pretty good. Eventually, I'll go ahead and do the 4-way system, using the 4333's on the bottom, and a separate satellite speaker on each side, with the 10, driver/horn/lens, and slot tweeter inside. I think that will be lots of fun, and I look forward to hearing any differences between that system, and the stock L300's. Today, I listened to several Robert Cray CD's, and also a few by Keb' Mo', and both of them had super fat bass, which was really fun!! The L300's weren't even breathing hard, and were still really fat and punchy!! Too many choices, now, and too little time to mess with them! ;):(:blink: BUT, now that I have the L300's, the pressure to complete this other part of the system, has been removed, and all will come in time, I'm sure! Thanks, very much, for your thoughts on this. Much appreciated! Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

[Ducatista47]

Thanks - the Gary Karr CD arrived yesterday and we gave it a play before dinner - very very nice, even at lower volume - I'm looking forward to some relaxing time when I can give it a bit more gain and just let it pull me in - even with our little 15" woofers I can tell its awesome ...
thanks for the tip, Clark!

I am so relieved you like it. My taste is usually over the fence past left field and I don't expect many listeners to gravitate towards what I enjoy.

"Little 15" woofers?" I see that in addition to your brains and good taste you also speak smartass! ;) I dabble in that language myself, but I am not sufficiently multilingual to master it. I have much to learn from you! All kidding aside, even in a room quite a bit larger than yours, fifteens are all one would ever need. The only selling point of the 2245H is its magic clarity and musical-ness. If someone needs more volume than JBL fifteens provide, they must be deaf or will be soon. A nice twelve inch system will fill a good sized living room with beautiful sound, so the fifteens are as nice as it need ever get, methinks. Of course the LE-14 series is always lurking in the wings.

Let me know how the Gary Karr CD sounds on your four ways at volume. I would enjoy reports of how convincing it sounds on someone else's system. It doesn't have the window rattling beats of Fender bass, but I bet is a great test of how realistically a system plays bass .

Sorry the CD is so expensive! Doc, I think it is available on Amazon. I just walked in to my stereo shop (where I buy my amps and stuff as well as music) an there it was. What a wonderful place it is!

Clark

[Doc Mark]

Morning, Clark,

Many thanks for your thoughts on the bass situation. After listening to my L300's, I'm inclined to believe that any more bass would be too much bass, if there is such a thing! :blink: I am in deep love/lust with those old L300's, and really cannot imagine any better sound from any other speaker system! However, since I have the other components on hand, and since I just "have" to do something with them, I'm going to go ahead and complete the 4333 project, which is what brought me to this forum in the first place, and also will very probably make a subwoofer out of the 2242HPL that I picked up, just for grins. That will give me what, to us, will be the ultimate HT, should we wish to use our system that way, though our HK AVR20 will probably have to be upgraded. No hurry, now, as I wrote before, however. Thanks for the info on that Karr CD. I ordered the 1812 CD yesterday, and will seek the Karr CD out on Amazon today. Couldn't find it yesterday, on the site on which I got the 1812 CD. I do believe that I will very much enjoy the Karr offering, and thank you, in advance, for suggesting it to all of us! Thanks, also for your thoughts on what JBL 15 transducers can do. Right now, I can't imagine any "more", actually being better. But, getting down to 22HZ might be fun, nevertheless......! :bouncy: (Even though our room is not large enough for that sound wave to reproduce the actual fundamental tone of that frequency!) Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

[hjames]

To find out if too much bass is too much, Here are some good cheap CDs

a good demo CD is Jennifer Warnes CD - The Hunter ... (Amazon has it for under $2 used) the song "Way Down Deep" has a close-miced Djambe (african drum) - it'll show you where your low end is.

Another one - Boz Scaggs album DIG - you can get it on CD used via Amazon for around $9 plus S/H ... play the song Desire - its not artificial bass but it has very full bass - it'll give your speakers a workout! If your speakers go LOW, you'll know!

Folks here recommended them to me - so now I share their recommends with you! get them both for under $20 via Amazon (used)





Morning, Clark,

Many thanks for your thoughts on the bass situation. After listening to my L300's, I'm inclined to believe that any more bass would be too much bass, if there is such a thing! :blink: I am in deep love/lust with those old L300's, and really cannot imagine any better sound from any other speaker system! However, since I have the other components on hand, and since I just "have" to do something with them, I'm going to go ahead and complete the 4333 project, which is what brought me to this forum in the first place, and also will very probably make a subwoofer out of the 2242HPL that I picked up, just for grins. That will give me what, to us, will be the ultimate HT, should we wish to use our system that way, though our HK AVR20 will probably have to be upgraded. No hurry, now, as I wrote before, however. Thanks for the info on that Karr CD. I ordered the 1812 CD yesterday, and will seek the Karr CD out on Amazon today. Couldn't find it yesterday, on the site on which I got the 1812 CD. I do believe that I will very much enjoy the Karr offering, and thank you, in advance, for suggesting it to all of us! Thanks, also for your thoughts on what JBL 15 transducers can do. Right now, I can't imagine any "more", actually being better. But, getting down to 22HZ might be fun, nevertheless......! :bouncy: (Even though our room is not large enough for that sound wave to reproduce the actual fundamental tone of that frequency!) Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

[Krunchy]

Hi Heather! at those prices I'm willing to give it a whirl ( I love amazon's used cd options). You, Clark and many others here have great taste in music, and music is what its all about....thanks in advance! :)

[robertbartsch]

I recently built a sub woofer cabinet for a JBL professional 18" driver with a 500 watt Series D power amp. The cabinet is a 10 cubic feet vented box.

When properly mixed sound tracks are played it is truly an amazing piece of audio equipment. It produces LF sound at high sound levels without effort. No booms, no bangs - just clean LF reporoduction.

The total cost of the sub was about $900.

[Doc Mark]

Hey, Heather,

Thanks, very much, for those CD suggestions! We've always like Boz Scagg's, and Jennifer Warnes is also a great performer! I'll give both CD's a try, and see how it goes. I'll also let you know how things turn out, once the 4333 project, and the 18" subwoofer project, are completed! All this is just too much fun, that's for sure!! Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

[Ducatista47]

Robert, that sounds like a great sub, and a bargain, too. My 9 cubic foot 4345's, flat to about 30-32hz, don't have me reaching for a sub for music, but movies are something else. I have a 12" full range driver system good to about 40hz and I am with Widget there. A hint of sub under 40hz improves music on most systems. I use a 10" and just a little bit of it.

I was remiss not stating that the Gary Karr CD is not a "how low does it go" recording. It is quite a test of how well the power and subtlety of low bass material in music is reproduced. The more important thing, I guess, is that I have no reservations recommending it as music. It is all about the music, I could not agree more.

Clark

[Doc Mark]

Hello, Clark, Heather, and All,

Just ordered all three CD's: Gary Karr. Jennifer Warnes, and Boz Scaggs! Now, all I have to do is wait until they arrive!! :bouncy::bouncy:

Clark, I agree with you, it IS all about the music. The HT thing is very neat, and I'm looking forward to messing with it, to see what it will offer us. However, as a former pro musician, who eaked out a decent living for around 30 years, it is the music in which I have the most interest, period!! I've written before, back when I first heard a pair of L300's, I listened to music like that from Dave Grusin, Aaron Copeland's "Fanfare For The Common Man", and some classical pieces that features a bowed double bass. I was flat-out gobsmacked (as my Brit friends say) by the detail and clarity of the music coming from those L300's!!! Now that Sweet Bride and I actually own a pair of our own L300's, I'm still amazed at they effortless, clear, and uncolored manner in which they reproduce the music we play!

So, it was with that in mind that I took your suggestion on the Gary Karr CD. I want to hear some well recorded double bass, and to get some pipe organ tossed in, too .... well, that's outstanding! So, thanks, very much, for the suggestion, and I'll let you know how we like it, once we get a chance to enjoy Mr. Karr, et.al. on that CD! Same for Ms. Warnes and Mr. Scaggs!! Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

[toddalin]

Hello, Clark, Heather, and All,

Clark, I agree with you, it IS all about the music. The HT thing is very neat, and I'm looking forward to messing with it, to see what it will offer us.
Every Good Wish,
Doc


In our house, the music is very important and must be right, but it is definately not all about the music.

I/we listen to music on the big system ~2-4 hr/week. We watch TV on the big system 24 hours a week. All TV is now in Dolby and all HD programming is in 5.1 discrete. I gotta go with the numbers. ;)

[hjames]

Well, In our house, the big system is both the TV/HD theatre system (when in 5.2 mode) and the Music system in 2.0 mode. Tonight was Sinatra (Only the Lonely) followed by TV: local HD News, plus TIVO from last night - The Daily Show and last night's CBS coverage of Sarah Palin's speech.

There is also the L200/quasi300 system upstairs for 2.0 house music ... but the big system is the one with the 4341s.

Call me cheap but our systems gotta earn their keep - its all we have ... :)

[Ducatista47]

In our house, the music is very important and must be right, but it is definately not all about the music.

I/we listen to music on the big system ~2-4 hr/week. We watch TV on the big system 24 hours a week. All TV is now in Dolby and all HD programming is in 5.1 discrete. I gotta go with the numbers. ;)

I go with the numbers too, but my numbers are different. Around here everyone has their own TV, so I am the only one to watch the one in my music room. I probably watch it about six hours most weeks, sometimes ten. Most nights I spend three or more hours listening to music on my system. The one thing I don't get to do enough is sleep, but that is a choice I can live with if I can listen to more music. I never have it in the background and I don't just have it on while doing other things. I prefer heavy music that demands full attention and rewards it with a full, deep experience. I guess that makes me an atypical listener.

What about motion pictures? I am just as passionate about the cinema, for the last fifty years in fact, and watch it pretty much the same way. I am after art and its considerable rewards and will never settle for entertainment without at least an attempted life expanding agenda included. This means that what I value in a film has nothing to do with surround sound or special effects. I could care less about 5.1 or 6.1 or 7.1. Give me great writing, director's craft, cinematography and acting. I have taken down the surround and listen to movies on 2.0 or 2.1 on my good system. (Older films don't need the point one.) Movies give me things real life cannot. If I want a more realistic sound field I'll open the door and go outside; as an experience infinity point one beats X.1. Paris, Texas would still be a great film in mono and Pearl Harbor is still a pile of crap in surround sound. Surround is a nice toy, but a sideshow and not important. It doesn't make a film better or worse.

OK, I'm weird. But you can see why I put so much effort into hi fi. Its rewards are a spiritual experience for me.

Clark

[Krunchy]

What about motion pictures? I am just as passionate about the cinema, for the last fifty years in fact, and watch it pretty much the same way. I am after art and its considerable rewards and will never settle for entertainment without at least an attempted life expanding agenda included. This means that what I value in a film has nothing to do with surround sound or special effects. I could care less about 5.1 or 6.1 or 7.1. Give me great writing, director's craft, cinematography and acting. I have taken down the surround and listen to movies on 2.0 or 2.1 on my good system. (Older films don't need the point one.) Movies give me things real life cannot. If I want a more realistic sound field I'll open the door and go outside; as an experience infinity point one beats X.1. Paris, Texas would still be a great film in mono and Pearl Harbor is still a pile of crap in surround sound. Surround is a nice toy, but a sideshow and not important. It doesn't make a film better or worse.

OK, I'm weird. But you can see why I put so much effort into hi fi. Its rewards are a spiritual experience for me.

Clark

So Well put! & not weird at all (maybe a minority :D), makes perfect sense, good/great music reproduction is much more important to me than HT reproduction, like Seawolf, we just ditched the TV in the LR, dont even have an HT set up yet but its in the pipeline.....someday.

[Tom Brennan]

Hi-fi is great when watching those big format roadshows of the 50s and early 60s, I'd say hi-fi is downright indispensible to proper enjoyment of those pictures. South Pacific, Ben Hur, Oklahoma, Spartacus, El Cid, My Fair Lady---pictures like that. Miklos Rosza, Dimitri Tiomkin, Rogers and Hammerstein, Elmer Bernstein.

I became hooked on hi-fi in 1959 when I was 10 years old. My Dad and I went down to the Loop to see Ben Hur in the roadshow version. I was thrilled by the mighty blasts of the overture and the fanfare that opens the credits, I'd never heard music reproduced with such clarity and power and I reckon that's when I became an Altec fan.

[Doc Mark]

Greetings, Friends,

It's fun to see how others use their systems, and what percentage is music vs HT. Sweet Bride and I fall, heavily, on the music side of things. I have music playing in the house, almost all the time, and "interrupt" whatever I'm doing, when something really good comes up on the Hi-Fi, and head to the living room so I can hear it better!! ;)

We only have TV on when something planned is coming on, and rarely watch it unless we have planned to do so. This is very probably why I'm so ambivalent about "what more is needed" in our system. We mainly want any extra bass reproduction to go into soundtracks that need it, WHEN we play them. But, I'm not certain that all the bells and whistle are really needed for our listening patterns, and needs. I'd like some good rear speakers, just to see how we like them. Other than that, I'm not really convinced that much more than stereo is going to offer us a lot, truthfully. Guess we'll see how it all turns out, eh? Thanks, again, to all who have voiced their thoughts in this thread! Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

[Ducatista47]

I didn't want to get into a history of film sound, but by old films I mean Vitaphone era offerings, European films produced in low budget war ravaged conditions, fifties Indian films like Pather Panchali and such. Whatever I do watch, I make the best of it by using my two channel system. I wring the best fidelity out of it that I can. The pops and rumbles are fine. For me they add to the invocation of the time and place. It just happens that there is not a lot of very low frequency material on any available play at home versions.

The big screen theater, well I was there for one of the golden ages. Chicago in the fifties and sixties had the Michael Todd and the Cinestage theaters with Cinerama and CinemaScope, 70mm and whatever sound system was installed for whatever film was showing. Speaking of toys like surround, I saw the only film (I think) ever made in Smell-o-vision.

Edit: I have to mention the most "Hi-Fi" visual and auditory experience I ever had at the movies. At one of the aforementioned theaters I saw the first run of Windjammer. The Cinemiracle setup must have been the most expensive installation ever and the result was worth it. The opening scene was on a single screen. Then the curtains opened...and opened...and opened, to reveal a huge triple sized curved screen with the great steel windjammer Christian Radich sailing out to sea from Oslo in a storm. The three projector setup made the image sharp beyond belief and the sound was to die for. We knew it was supposed to be spectacular but the entire audience was in shock. This was, I think, in 1958 or 1959.

Still, it was not a great film. As cinema, the best big Hollywood spectacle I ever saw was, yes Tom, Ben Hur.

The last thing I would want to put out there is an elitist spin. I listen and watch seeking what I personally seek from music and film and actual high fidelity serves me very well. I am not superior to dancers, background music listeners, fans of drive in movie summer films, Tiffany fans or anyone else. I have discovered what my own thing is and it does not make any sense to pursue it with less than complete passion. You only live once (in this sense) and this short life is no dress rehearsal.

Still, Doc and Krunchy and Tom and whoever else I am forgetting, it is really nice to know that I am not alone. Thanks!

Clark

[Doc Mark]

Greetings, Clark, Heather, and all,

Our new CD's arrived, and I've already listened to Jennifer Warnes, and Boz Scaggs, twice, each!! Very, very nice!! The bass is almost too much of a good thing on a few of the cuts! (Never thought I'd ever say something like that!!) Next up, is the Gary Karr CD, which will be played as soon as the current James Taylor offering is over! Ahhhh, life is good, indeed!!

Thanks, to the both of you, for the great music suggestions!! Much appreciated, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

[JohanR]

A year or so a fighter aircraft accidently went hypersonic just over where I live. The experience was not so much the sound of it as the feeling of a change in the air preasure. It was quite awsome!

No, I don't expect loudspeakers to reproduce that. Just the impact of real, unamplified acoustic music.

[Doc Mark]

Good Morning, Clark,

Well, my Gary Karr CD arrived, and I finally did get a chance to listen to it. I have to say, that Mr. Karr is most certainly a viruoso on his instrument, as is Mr. Harmon Lewis, on piano and organ!! I've never heard double bass played that way, and the bowing that Karr does is extraordinarily wonderful!! The L300's captured every nuance, and I could "feel" the bow moving across Karr's strings!! Subtle, sublime, sensational, and stunning, are all words that come to mind!!!

That having been said, however, I think that this CD, as good as it is, will not appeal to everyone. Those that like "in your face" music, like Techno stuff, or super hard rock, may not find the subtlety of this wonderful CD to their liking. But, for those that can appreciate such things, and especially those who love classical music, I think this disc is a "must have"!!! Just my opinion, and worth every bit of what you paid to read it!! ;):D

Clark, thanks, very much, for the recommendation! Outstanding, in every regard!! Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

[LRBacon]

On a good system, you can hear Bonham's speed king pedal squeeking on "Good times/Bad times."

I'll have to listen for that, Mark.

Try "My Heart Will Go On" from the Titanitic soundtrack. Some real low 30 hz notes. I always thought the bass was pretty low in Barbra Streisand's duet with Don Johnson, "Till I Loved You."

Larry

[Ducatista47]

Good Morning, Clark,

Well, my Gary Karr CD arrived, and I finally did get a chance to listen to it. I have to say, that Mr. Karr is most certainly a viruoso on his instrument, as is Mr. Harmon Lewis, on piano and organ!! I've never heard double bass played that way, and the bowing that Karr does is extraordinarily wonderful!! The L300's captured every nuance, and I could "feel" the bow moving across Karr's strings!! Subtle, sublime, sensational, and stunning, are all words that come to mind!!!


Doc, I am relieved you like the CD. I usually hesitate to recommend music that costs this much to obtain for fear it will not be well received.

I feel obligated to point out the long list of releases the compilation was taken from, found near the end of the booklet. I do not know if all the media sounds as hi-fi as this disc, they would be close for sure, but all will have the same stellar musical standards. I have heard one on vinyl, and it was great.

In other words, there is a lot more where that came from.

Clark

[Doc Mark]

Evening, Clark,

I agree that recommending such things can be dicey, sometimes, but hey, for folks that are willing to be open-minded, I have a strong feeling that many of them would like this one! I most certainly do, and you can rest assured that I'll be checking out the list of other interesting things in the back of the booklet, as you recommend!

To me, this CD is best enjoyed by just sitting down, beverage of choice close at hand, eyes closed...... and then taking in every single nuance that these fantastic performances offer!! To me, this one deserves your complete, and undivided attention, and the rewards for listening that way are outstanding! :applaud::applaud: Thanks, again, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

P.S. I dug out our Titanic soundtrack CD today, and will give "My Heart Will Go On", as LRBacon recommended, a listen tomorrow! Hey, might as well watch the DVD after that, eh? Lots of good and powerful stuff on there, and it will be fun to see how the L300's handle it all!! ;):applaud::D

[John]

To me, this CD is best enjoyed by just sitting down, beverage of choice close at hand, eyes closed...... and then taking in every single nuance that these fantastic performances offer!!;):applaud::D


Better make sure your doors are locked.;)

[Doc Mark]

Better make sure your doors are locked.;)

:D:D:D Hey, John,

A good way to end the day! I'm about ready to hit the sack, and it's always nice to end the day with a laugh! Thanks, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc (still chuckling over that one.....)

[Doc Mark]

Hello, Heather, and All,

Tonight, I've listened to both the Boz Scaggs (2X), and Jennifer Warnes (1X) CD's again, and I have to say, I LOVE them both!! The Boz Scaggs offering has lots of digital/synth bass that really shakes the room, and yet, still has crystal clear highs, too, which the L300's handle with ease. Love them, love them, love them!! Thanks, so much, for recommending both CD's to me!! Tomorrow, I'm heading down the mountain to run some errands, one of which is JBL-oriented, about which I'll tell you later. But, I'm taking both CD's with me, so that I can enjoy them both, yet again, in the Jeep! Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc (who is in deep lust, and hog heaven, with his "new" L300's!!) ;):D:applaud:

[laurie]

This is an interesting question. I'm not an expert like some of you guys. But I've had my JBL TLX 14s for almost 20 years now and they have always (and continue to) produce bass the way I like it. During that time I have always partnered them with a Rotel dual mono power amplifier for that real wide stereo separation - and over the last 8 years a Linn Kolektor pre amplifier replacing a Rotel RC 850 pre amplifier.

For me, real bass is what I interpret to be at the heart of the mix, not behind the beat, or on top of the beat, but right in the middle - no matter if it's acoustic bass or electric bass or synth or whatever. I've also been to many concerts, gigs, festivals over the years in England and Europe so have an idea what I like and what to hear and I've always thought the TLX 14s produce the bass as accurately as any speaker I've ever heard including crescendos like a sub woofer does.

Part of the reason I think is the fact they are 8 inch speakers (20 cm) in relatively large bookshelf cabinets. The problem I've always had with many speakers produced for the British market is that cabinets are too tall and thin, and speakers are too small - many around 6.5 inches, sometimes smaller by many of the top brands - so consequently people try things like bi-wiring, adding sub woofers etc to get the bass they want - I find speakers designed for British homes often have a dull bass, many instances not deep, other times quite bland or lumpy - just not realistic as I've come to expect with the JBLs that I have - one of the reasons I've never felt the need to replace them, that would require a very large outlay of cash to get that sound today.

[Krunchy]

I think I heard on NPR that wallmart will be offering some sort of O'LASIK
(Organic-Laser-assisted in Situ keratomileusis surgery) in the near future at a substantially reduced cost. :D

Get the old 20/20 sharpened up & pick up some socks all in one place! :applaud:

Gotta love those guys, Thank you wallmart!

[Skywave-Rider]

...Speaking of toys like surround, I saw the only film (I think) ever made in Smell-o-vision.



I had to laugh because it reminded me of seeing John Waters' Polyester (1981), in ODORAMA. Hahaha!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jMs0J1UIaNM

[4313B]

Or should I consider to go for a plastic surgery to model my head for ideal refraction whatever this will be?No. You'll still be stuck with the limitations of everything else.

[toddalin]

Hey, Grumpy,

This is a fantastic idea!! How about it, Todd, and some of you other engineers and Tech Folk, out there? How about posting a guide on how those of us who will never have much of the quality test gear that you have, can use and interpret information from such low caliber gear as the Rat Shack DB meter? I know this would be very helpful to all us Lower Life Forms!! ;);):D:bouncy: I'd love to see a "sticky", or whatever we call it here, that would be permanent, so all of us could access such valuable information at any time we need it! Again, great idea, Grumpy! I hope some of our good learned Friends, here at LH, will undertake to do just as you asked. Thanks, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

Not really a high priority when you are ridiculed and chided at every turn by the moderators who should be setting a good example and open to suggestion.

[boputnam]

...by the moderators who should be setting a good example and open to suggestion.Yeah, we suck.

Except, we are always open and responsive to suggestion - so you are wrong there. Did we miss something here? Most recently, we parsed that interesting Hammond / Leslie thread on suggestions of members. Not enough for you...? What else...?

You cannot prove your observations - that is my point.

You appear to be clever enough: Either work into a method to really test that hypothesis, or accept that until you do there will be at-the-least agnostics. You haven't lost anything, in-spite of your reaction(s).

[Ian Mackenzie]

Greetings, Friends,

Today, whilst listening to some Diana Krall CD's, I gave thought to, exactly, what might be considered "real" bass reproduction. I've long thought that this most certainly depended upon what your musical background, and thus your musical expectations, might be.

For myself, I played music professionally for about 30 years, and in that time, worked as a singing drummer, and also as a lead vocalist/front man, for large horn-oriented bands. To me, bass does not sound "real", unless it's the same as what I heard from the bass player, who was always situated right next to my old Ludwig drum set. Same goes for bands with horns, and also for recorded drums, too. Any speaker which cannot accurately reproduce what I heard, and almost more importantly, felt, during those years, is not reproducing "real" bass.

Others of you may have different requirements, stemming from very different musical backgrounds. So, let's hear what your expectations are, please, and what experiences in your life have helped to create those expectations of what you consider "real" bass reproduction. I very much look forward to hearing what you have to say, Friends! Thanks, in advance, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

Hi Doc,

I think those with a glass of red doodling in this thread are more interested in getting their point made and appear open to wild imagination.

Back on topic what ever happens at home is always going to very different to a purely acoustic gig or in a studio.

That said a lot of people dislike bass reflex loading in favour of horn loading of various types.

[grumpy]

Heh... you guys & gals have fun. I'm goin' to Kauai for a week.
Maybe I'll hear some live music between work junk.

Mahalo.

[Doc Mark]

Heh... you guys & gals have fun. I'm goin' to Kauai for a week.
Maybe I'll hear some live music between work junk.

Mahalo.

Hey, Grumpy,

Have a safe and sound trip, and come back when you've "had enough", OK?;);):D See you upon your safe return, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

[Doc Mark]

Hi Doc,

I think those with a glass of red doodling in this thread are more interested in getting their point made and appear open to wild imagination.

Back on topic what ever happens at home is always going to very different to a purely acoustic gig or in a studio.

That said a lot of people dislike bass reflex loading in favour of horn loading of various types.

Good Evening, Ian,

Hey, what a cool way to close out this thread!! Yep, you brought it back to the topic at hand, which is a good thing, indeed! I have heard really poor BR systems, and really great horn-loaded systems, and vice versa. I always enjoyed the dynamics and efficiency of the all horn systems, but definitely don't have room for a full-sized bass horn in our home! :blink:

But, to my ear, the L300's are offering just about everything that could seek in a beautiful speaker, that's also very easy to enjoy, sonically. With the other JBL components, and cabinets, that have come, and will soon be coming my way, I'll be able to experiment with various combinations of components and crossover, just to see how I like them. Amongst the systems I'd like to build and hear, is a 4-way, so I can decide if I like what the 2123H adds what the L300's. For this, I'll use the 4333's I got from Mr. Hawaii-Bound (Grumpy), and a smaller cabinet which will contain the midbass, midrange, and tweet. Add to that the single 4518 box that should soon (hopefully) becoming my way, plus the extra horns, and compression drivers (2") that now live here, and I should be able to cover lots of bases, to see, exactly, what sounds best to me and to Sweet Bride! She loves the L300's, so I think it's going to be a tough decision if we end up liking the sound of another bunch of goodies! In any case, our listening area will have something very nice in it, JBL-wise, and whatever ends up being "2nd place" will go down into my work area (when that's done)! So, no losers here, Mate!! I look forward to hearing what the 2242HPL, inside that 4518 cabinet, will add to the wonderful bass we're already getting with our L300'S!! Ahhhh, life is goooooood!! ;):D:applaud: Thanks for your note, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

[Ian Mackenzie]

Doc,

Sounds like you are having too much fun.

As they say dare to be adventurous and you will discover.

The think I like about messing with bass it its the more practical in that what you see is what you get end of the business.

A long time ago the two key things I found out about real bass were heat (the voice coil) and displacement once you decided to start driving some real power (+200 watts) below 100 hertz.

The story story is bass is very much about location.

Even with live string instruments and drums, where they are and where you are can have a whole twist on the quality of what you hear as the end product.

Same with speaker boxes and woofers. Some systems are setup for boundary effect loading, others don't need it.

As to the whole X File episode on glasses I have not doubt they make a difference when the so called dick head engineer cannot pick the bass guitar from the double bass and the rest of the mess sitting behind the desk when all the muso's are playing too loud for ego's sakes over the top of each other. Of course there is the always the problem of not knowing what a double bass really sounds like and therefore glasses can be an advantage.

For those at home eye balls prefer visual symmetry. The ear is quite sensitive to relative bass loudness, extension and harmonic distortion. A transducer with low harmonic distortion will always have more clarity, but may not always have the loudest boom for your buck.

When you get around to messing with the 2123's see if you can find or borrow a 2344 horn pair for the compression driver. That makes a brilliant 3 way with the 2235H or woofer used in the Everest. I think Rob ran that as a very nice set-up around the time we both messed with the 2344's over the years. Rob ran subs below the mid bass woofer while I can 2245's. These combinations just seem to work very well if you are into accuracy and not disco bass with minimal diy effort once you sort the pass eq for thr horn

Please let us know how you get on.

[Doc Mark]

Hi, Ian,

Thanks, very much, for those suggestions! Interestingly enough, I had my eye on a pair of 2344's, but they went too high for my wallet, at this time. No problem, another pair will come along, eventually, and I have MORE than enough JBL goodies to keep my busy for quite some time, with not much time to mess with it all. I had hoped that this month would be "the month" to build and experiment. But, our little business decided otherwise. Such is life, eh? In the meantime, I'm still very much enjoying the L300's, and that takes the sting out of my dissapointment for the lack of time. All good things come to he who waits.... and plans.... and schemes...., and has some good info from JBL Friends here at LH!! ;):D Thanks, again, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc