How loud do you like it?

[Mr. Widget]

I recently ran across this statement posted here on a thread:


1. Always wanted L300s, for the sound

3. I like my music loud, when I have the opportunity to listen that way
It got me thinking... how loud is loud and how many of the larger horn speaker lovers among us play their systems at loud levels?

I can tell you that I regularly topped 110dB and peaked at 127dB with the system I had in my youth. (Four large JBLs and ~200watts per cabinet) These days most of my listening is at <95dB but occasionally I'll hit 105 or so for a few minutes before turning it down...

My current system is probably capable of peaks in the 115-120db range, but I have never pushed it. A friend with the same speakers, a larger room and bigger amps has pushed his and says that he was surprised at how effortless it sounded... but then he used to play the drums. ;)

So dust off that Radio Shack meter, or buy one if you don't have one, and let us know how loud you listen to music when you air it out. :)


Widget

[Ian Mackenzie]

I think loudness is a fairly broad statement.

A true broad band system than can hold up full power down to say 30 hertz will always sound bigger and not necessarily louder.

I equate loud with a distorted system that is loud because it goes neither loud nor high cleanly. Loud is often not dynamic but compressed.

Conservatavely I at one time used 1300 watts biamped on 4343.

As they say it taskes cubic inches in terms of amp power.

It also depend on the reverberant field of the room.

Ian

[Hoerninger]

One observation but no Radio Shack meter:

Once I tested a high efficiency full horn system. I wanted it VERY loud. It was breath taking and shaking the ground. But the sound was clear. When the amp started clipping it became subjective loud. (Yes I wanted and "needed" this experience.)
When I drove home I had no ringing in my ear but I was glad about the (relative) silence.

At home I usually listen at moderate levels.
(And I have made the experience bad speakers want it louder.)
___________
Peter

[Rolf]

I will search for my meter.

[Jan Daugaard]

I once touched upon this topic:

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=439

[Guido]

I hardly use more than 1 Watt which means around 96dB with my various systems.

I confess that sometimes I hit 110 dB levels but not for longer than 15-30 minutes.

Tonight I annonced a sound party :D I think we will hit the 115 to 120s when the time is right :bouncy:

[yggdrasil]

These days my normal listening levels are down to around 95dB....

I used to play much louder a few (or maybe not so few) years ago, but as the system quality gets better and my ears get older I prefer a little more moderate levels.

Another reason for turning the volume down a bit is that today my systems are more dynamic, with more headroom, so when the loudest passages comes they still get very high.

[BMWCCA]

The cleaner the source material, the louder I can play it. I'll have to borrow a meter but I know Steely Dan will get louder play than, say, John Mayer. I never play into distorted range and because of that I've never lost a tweeter.

Loudness itself is a relative term. My old Macs and a couple of my Soundcraftsmen pre-amps have actual loudness controls which, of course, attempt to compensate and adjust relative levels across the spectrum in accordance with the Fletcher-Munson curve. But when I said "loud", I meant concert level, sometimes even outside. If you've never wanted to hear Grateful Dead's "Dark Star" outside, at night, in the shadow of the Blue Ridge Mountains, under the most incredible canopy of stars you can imagine, then you probably weren't alive in the USA in the late 60's. :rockon2:

Loud, to me, can often be nothing more than replicating the actual sound level of the original performance. Whether it's acoustic or amplified, orchestral or rock band, I want my system to be capable of reproducing the original performance, when the occasion may arise to be able to enjoy it. And that includes "volume", "loudness", "sound pressure" or whatever you want to use as reference. We used to call that "Fidelity" and aspire to that being "High".

[Doc Mark]

Greetings, All,

"Loud", huh? Humm...... Well, I used to listen to my music loud all the time, no matter what I was playing. Now, however, I've toned down my volume needs, for the most part, as I've damaged my hearing, partly from my former wanton use of volume in playing music, partly from shooting too many guns without hearing protection as a kid, and partly from my years as a Tank Platoon Leader in the CA National Guard! :blink::blink:

That having been said, however, I yearn for a system that is fully capable of reproducing whatever is fed into it, with dynamic range, authority, and accuracy. I want tight and well defined bass and drums, and when the urge moves me, I want to hear them fairly loudly. I will have to drag out my old RS meter and do some measuring, once my new system is fully up and running, just for grins. Oh, and when there are cannons in the sound tracks of movies we watch, I want them to SOUND like cannons, and not the wimpy excuse for cannons that you usually hear from stereo speakers!! :D:applaud::D

The other compromise that I have to make, and we do this willingly, is that we live in a small mountain town, where sound levels carry far and wide. Because we love living up in the quiet, we happily tone down our own noise making, including the sound levels of the stereo system. However, when the urge strikes, and I'm willing to close up to keep more of the sound pressure inside our home, I want the ability to do so! ;):D:D Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

[Mr. Widget]

I will search for my meter.Yes please do!

I will have to drag out my old RS meter and do some measuring, once my new system is fully up and running, just for grins. I'd love to see the results.

I'd really love to see a bunch of posts of people's actual listening levels... it might make an interesting point cloud.

Currently we have three data points. Johnny's, Guido's and mine and it would seem we are all listening at around 95dB. Which while certainly not "concert level", is actually fairly loud.


Widget

[Mannermusic]

I once touched upon this topic:

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=439


Jan,

Just read your post above - great insight re symphonic performance sound levels! Little wonder professional musicians wear ear plugs - particularly the ones in the row in front of the brass section!

My "baseline" is growing up listening to my dad teaching lessons in the adjacent room and subsequent life long hobby as a player in community groups, etc. So, I basically try to emulate that experience with the sound levels when I listen at home. I just picked up my new Radio Shack meter (its all Widget's fault) and found my results are quite similar to your measurements in the auditorium. A normal, big full sound level of jazz or symphonic falls in the range of 80 - 85. A big band shout is about 90 db, and a full symphonic tutti (The Ride of Koschei the Deathless, Bernard Rogers) bounced off 97. Now, this a big, high efficiency, 4-way rig with horn, etc. requiring only a watt or two to produce the levels above . . . . but the thing that limits the listening level is room acoustics. Mike:applaud:

[Doc Mark]

Hi, Grumpy, and all,

Well, you peaked my curiosity, so I got out my old RS meter, mounted it on a tripod, and set it sideways in my regular listening position. Then, I played one of my favorite tracks from the Checkfield CD, "Water, Wind, and Stone", which is a very neat number called, "Africa". Lots of good percussion and a very rhythmic, African-influenced bass and drum lines. I like to crank it a little when listening to this track, and will sometimes repeat it several times over before being "satisfied"! ;):D

With the meter set on "C" weighting, and in "fast" mode, the average db's were in the 84-86 range, with peaks of 94-96db's! I was surprised that it was actually that loud! Sounds good to me, especially with music that has some bass and drums featured! Now, I am REALLY wondering how my 4333's will sound in the same room as we've been listening to those old Dynaco A35's and my cobbled together subwoofers! WOW!! I know I'll be stoked! See you tomorrow, Grumpy!! Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

P.S. If my 4408's were both healthy, I'd have used and measured them, rather than the Dynaco A35's. But, after one woofer began to go South, we've been enjoying the very musical sound of those old Dynacos, so they got the nod. Don't know where we'll use them when the 4333's are up and running, however!! ;):D Guess we'll have to use them in the bedroom, or in some other place in the house. In truth, they are just too nice-sounding to dump.

[grumpy]

Hey Mark, See you all tomorrow.

Listening levels? 85-ish with peaks in the 90's (or less) is about where I'm comfortable
most of the time.

There -are- special occasions (and source material) now & then where the levels
get a bit higher :), but 4313b's admonition about levels is worth paying attention to,
especially as with many pro or studio systems, you don't really get a warning about
how high listening levels can go without producing more 'normal' loudness-distortion
artifacts . "Still sounds good and clean" isn't a reliable indicator.

Sorry for the repeat/lecture. Don't stare at the sun either.

-grumpy

[Baron030]

In a way there is no real exact correlation between SPL and the perception of what is loud. The perception of loudness really comes down to how many of our 20,000 hair-like nerve cells within the cochlea (the inner ear) are stimulated. Sounds that have a large number of harmonics will be perceived as being louder because of the larger number of nerve cells being stimulated. So, for example, cymbals will sound louder then horns because of the extra harmonics, assuming that both are instruments are being played at equal SPL levels.

And it would also explanation why an amplifier pushed into clipping sounds so much louder then a much larger amplifier still reproducing a clean signal. The distortion adds harmonics, which stimulate more nerve cells. But, the reality is that the larger amplifier achieves a higher actual SPL and it's just not perceived as being louder.

With distortion adding harmonics and stimulating so many more nerve endings.
It kind of explains why distortion is so fatiguing to our ears.
It's really hard work for our nerve cells to be processing that much stimulus.

Personally, I listen to my new quad amped 15" 4-way at about the same level of loudness as my old 030 system.
But, since this new system has so much less distortion, I know that the actual SPL must be a lot higher, particularly during any loud transients.

Considering the specs of "Everest DD66000" have at least a 10 fold reduction of distortion over my current system, I would have to wager that the "Everest DD66000" would have to reach some extremely high SPL levels before it could be considered "Loud".

Baron030 :)

[JBobL]

Been meaning to get an SPL meter. Have the same AVR for 4 years so There are only 3 volume settings that I use depending on mood. If a setting doesn't produce the expected volume then I know it's time to blow my nose or wash the ears. I should pay better attention to personal hygene I suppose ha ha.
As long as the neighbors dogs can't be heard it's loud enough for me.:)

[Zilch]

I keep it moderate, since I do so much of it. 80 dBC, 85 if I'm "rocking out." 90 only if someone's here and asks for me to crank it. The SPL meter is always within reach.

By all measures and standards, concert levels are dangerous to hearing, and I had WAY too much fun at the Fillmore. My tinitus is substantially mitigated since adopting this policy.... :yes:

[sweetliberty]

My old (new then) 4350's with a phase 400 and 700 peaked just shy of 130dB. In a large, reflective room with the needles pegged. Just for a few seconds of course - just to see what they were capable of.
With the subsonic filter on the bass speakers could take that power ok. Those compression drivers screeched - badly. IMO more to do with the amp than the speakers.
I was living on a farm, nearest neighbour 500 yards away - complained. :banghead:

[gsb001]

I'm going to have to buy a meter now.
SB

[Rolf]

Yes please do!
I'd love to see the results.

Widget

Done! Average (slow reading) show about 100db. Peak: 125db.

To loud? Yes, but that is what is "the real world" ... on a rock concert.

[Ian Mackenzie]

So dust off that Radio Shack meter, or buy one if you don't have one, and let us know how loud you listen to music when you air it out. :)


Widget

Mr Widget,

For the purposes of maintaining the "Status" of the Forum's among the wider audio community it might be better if you did not speak your mind in future.

These forums, like anything else are googled so if someone posts loud tomorrow they will pull this thread ranking in order of preference.

Lets all hope you bring something new to the table next time!


Ian

[hjames]

c'mon, its nice to know who is in a loudness/volume race, so as to weight their comments in other threads with the appropriate gravitas, eh?



Mr Widget,

For the purposes of maintaining the "Status" of the Forum's among the wider audio community
it might be better if you did not speak your mind in future.

Ian

[Rolf]

Listen to Mr. Wonderfool! :barf:He is our guru!:barf:
Go hide yourself for a year or two Ian, then come back and maybe there is something for you to learn.:confused: , but I don't believe so.:banghead:

Mr. Widget come up with a perfectly question regarding this topic. If you think otherwise, that is your problem ... among the other problems you have. (Sorry that English not being my first language)


Mr Widget,

For the purposes of maintaining the "Status" of the Forum's among the wider audio community it might be better if you did not speak your mind in future.

These forums, like anything else are googled so if someone posts loud tomorrow they will pull this thread ranking in order of preference.

Lets all hope you bring something new to the table next time!


Ian

[Andyoz]

I've monitored quite a few live music events and they normally come in at around 105dBA "average" and 115dBA "maximum" when measured at the mixing desk. There are of course extremes where 5-10dB can be added to those values but that really is getting into stupid levels. C-Weighted levels are actually more accurate for relating SPL to subjective loudness and you can add about 7dB to a typical dBA value to get the dBC for bass heavy music content.

I find that trying to recreate those levels in a domestic environment are not enjoyable because you are playing against a much lower background level...no crowd noise, etc.

Even an average level of 95dBA at home is bloody loud in my experience. I typically listen at 85-90dBA average.

Also, be wary of what SPL's cheaper sound level meters register, they are generally most accurate at the middle of their dynamic range and not so great at the extremes.

[JBL 4645]

Listen to Mr. Wonderfool! :barf:He is our guru!:barf:
Go hide yourself for a year or two Ian, then come back and maybe there is something for you to learn.:confused: , but I don't believe so.:banghead:

Mr. Widget come up with a perfectly question regarding this topic. If you think otherwise, that is your problem ... among the other problems you have. (Sorry that English not being my first language)

Oh, good one Rolf. :applaud:LOL does this guy ever smile, Ian, you really are senile.:D

http://www.technovelgy.com/graphics/content07/hal-reads-lips.jpg
Ashley -I’m not sure Rolf, but I sense something strange with Ian.
Rolf -I’m afraid I must agree with you.
Ashley -There isn’t a single sane person on this forum that can’t stop moaning and I see no alternative but disconnection.
Rolf -I agree Ashley, they’ll be nothing else to do.
Ashley-Would be a bit tricky, we would have to hack into account and cut his high almighty brain functions.
Rolf- providing he has any of course.



I’m usually at 110dbc and around 85dba but constantly varies with film soundtracks its not always continuous.

Music CD I playback at lower db level so while I might have the fader at -20db or as it is right now tonight at -30db with “Images” by (Jean Michel Jarre) or with films I might be at -7db, or less depending on the sheer loudness of the soundtrack, if its “Underworld” (2003) it would be lesser level because that film rips my ears off!

I remember the first time I had the DIY JBL4645 and peaked a ludicrous level in the room at 126dbc with a little film called "Final Approach" (1991) liked the afterburner sound effects of the SR-71 stealth blackbird.

I monitored a nice peak level on "Star Trek III: The Search for Spock" (1984) month be last while playing out a few scenes with futuristic explosions of the U.S.S. Grissom getting hit from behind and the left and right peaked while muting centre, LFE.1 surrounds and sub bass LCRS extension at around 108dbc to 110dbc for a very short brief moment, that was felt in the chest, from the JBL control 5.

As for the risk of high sound pressure levels I’m aware of the danger, and the repercussions.

[Mr. Widget]

Mr Widget,

For the purposes of maintaining the "Status" of the Forum's among the wider audio community it might be better if you did not speak your mind in future.

These forums, like anything else are googled so if someone posts loud tomorrow they will pull this thread ranking in order of preference.

Lets all hope you bring something new to the table next time!


IanWhat in the world are you trying to say? While Rolf is quick to admit that English is not his native tongue he is quite able to communicate. I have no idea what you are suggesting here...

Widget

[Mr. Widget]

Done! Average (slow reading) show about 100db. Peak: 125db.

To loud? Yes, but that is what is "the real world" ... on a rock concert.Thanks Rolf! That is exactly what I wanted to know... you are right, that is loud!



Even an average level of 95dBA at home is bloody loud in my experience. I typically listen at 85-90dBA average.I'd agree... though when I was younger, I really drove the system hard.:D



Also, be wary of what SPL's cheaper sound level meters register, they are generally most accurate at the middle of their dynamic range and not so great at the extremes.True, but my 20 year old RS meter matched my calibrated CLIO spl measurements to within reading error in the middle of it's range, i.e. 90dB.


Widget

[JBL 4645]

What in the world are you trying to say? While Rolf is quick to admit that English is not his native tongue he is quite able to communicate. I have no idea what you are suggesting here...

Widget

LOL I’d stay off the bottle for week or two Ian.:D
http://bourbonfilm.com/Bourbon_Poster.jpg

[Ian Mackenzie]

Thanks Rolf! That is exactly what I wanted to know... you are right, that is loud!

I'd agree... though when I was younger, I really drove the system hard.:D

True, but my 20 year old RS meter matched my calibrated CLIO spl measurements to within reading error in the middle of it's range, i.e. 90dB.


Widget

Try Google Loud and JBL...go figure!

If that is all you have time to think about here its a crying shame.

I would expect this type of discussion in an Auto Sound Forum thread titled head bangers :banghead:..

Hell if I Google Tad or E2 my posts come up.

[Titanium Dome]

In the spirit of general audio discussion, I find loudness to be a relative thing. I calibrate most of my gear so that I can generally expect 85 dB at a certain volume setting.

I find that I rarely get up to that setting under normal circumstances. In the evening, I'm generally 10-15 dB below that, and sometimes it still seems too loud.

However, on Saturday or Sunday morning when I'm alone in the house, I can put on a DVD-A or SACD or some trance music off the iPod and without a second thought I've ramped up the volume to over 95 dB. Occasionally I'll break out the SPL meter for a reality check and find I'm hitting peaks of 107 dB, which results in an immediate volume reduction.

The sound coming from the Performance Series at that volume is just great, clear, open, powerful, not a hint of distortion, but I fear for my old ears. I had too many Deep Purple concerts at 120 dB+ when I was a young man.

Once I put in -30 dB ear plugs and ran the SVA set up to 118 dB running them with the Hafler SR2300 amps. My chest was vibrating to the sound waves. I pushed a little harder, but before I could get the meter adjusted one of the tweeters screamed in pain, and then it was gone. :shock: I would guess maybe 121-122 dB is what killed it. I haven't done that since.

Those tweets are hard to find. :banghead:

[Mr. Widget]

Hell if I Google Tad or E2 my posts come up.Then maybe you should think before you post. :D

I still don't get what you are going on about. I am certainly not ashamed of my curiousity about the relative volumes that we listen to our music.



I find that I rarely get up to that setting under normal circumstances. In the evening, I'm generally 10-15 dB below that, and sometimes it still seems too loud.

However, on Saturday or Sunday morning when I'm alone in the house, I can put on a DVD-A or SACD or some trance music off the iPod and without a second thought I've ramped up the volume to over 95 dB. Occasionally I'll break out the SPL meter for a reality check and find I'm hitting peaks of 107 dB, which results in an immediate volume reduction.I'd bet the times you have crept up to 107dB, there was prodigious bass information in your program... 107dB with most music is pretty darned loud. However, with some contemporary music that has extremely low frequency and prominent bass the subjective SPL will not be as high as you might expect. Even more so if you were using dB-C instead of the more typical dB-A.


Widget

[Andyoz]

True, but my 20 year old RS meter matched my calibrated CLIO spl measurements to within reading error in the middle of it's range, i.e. 90dB.

That's exactly what I meant, have you repeated the test at much lower or higher SPL's. That where you "...get what you pay for" :)

I was once on site measuring some SPL's and the client pulls out his mobile phone with an SPL feature. That little thing was reading levels to within +/-0.5dB of my Bruel & Kjaer meter which costs as much as a car.

[Andyoz]

I'd bet the times you have crept up to 107dB, there was prodigious bass information in your program... 107dB with most music is pretty darned loud. However, with some contemporary music that has extremely low frequency and prominent bass the subjective SPL will not be as high as you might expect. Even more so if you were using dB-C instead of the more typical dB-A.

I suspect that many of the high dB levels posted here, have been measuring using "C-Weighted" dBC or "Linear" dB. The same readings in "A-Weighted" dBA would be much lower as that effectively takes the bass content out of the overall measured level. The levels for those various weighting curves can be nearly 10dB different with music on a thumpin' JBL system. It's hard to compare levels unless the weighting curve is stated.

[Hoerninger]

This thread is useful.

1. It certainly has a social component, people want to talk.
And people forget, so topics are discussed again and again.
Do you remember
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=28689&stc=1&d=1191164640 (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=187244&postcount=1)
just another two way.

2. This discussion is not of the kind

"Get it louder we'll leave the car for 145 dB".

But you can read between the lines that modern systems have a within lying danger. It was stated before in this forum, do you remember (Drew Daniels (http://www.audioheritage.org/html/perspectives/drews-clues/6-results.html))?
____________
Peter

[Guido]

OK, here we go.

The sound party is long gone, the hangover just left.

We had average 115-118dB with peaks over 120dB and is was BLOODY loud. :D
I have to say that my 4435 stayed unbelievable clean and effortless even at these levels. WOW!
The 4 woofers where always perfectly controlled by the DIY XA160 amps.

We had a lot of fun

[cooky1257]

Usually in the 80 to 90 dB range but when I'm in the mood 95-105dBc (with instantaneous peaks a tad higher than that)does it for me.
With 4 15" drivers pressurizing the room it is very much a physical experience when giving it some wellie.
The JBL's stay clean as anything and you have to be careful you don't hurt yourself because they only ever sound 'bigger' not louder and hearing threshold shift is a distinct possibility that just messes up your next listening session.

[JBL 4645]

I suspect that many of the high dB levels posted here, have been measuring using "C-Weighted" dBC or "Linear" dB. The same readings in "A-Weighted" dBA would be much lower as that effectively takes the bass content out of the overall measured level. The levels for those various weighting curves can be nearly 10dB different with music on a thumpin' JBL system. It's hard to compare levels unless the weighting curve is stated.

The average level on the Radio Shack in dbA I think its around 500Hz up to 16Khz but lets no split hairs on the true technical range 500Hz to 16Khz is good enough for me to understand.

[JBL 4645]

Here are few pictures other than of famous (Empire Leicester Square), these are the (London underground tube trains) and the SPL db level needs ear plugs because how these people adapt to this ay of life I’d never know and if they dare bitched and moaned to my face turn that down, they can shut up..

The SPL db had to be set to 100db and the level varied with frequency as it was moving though the twist and turns though the labyrinth of tunnels. The air rushing around my ears with uniform coverage made me pinch my noise because of the pressure change on the ears.

Plus the rocking vibration add a bit more low end of sound pressure its kinder of unnerving not being able to see what is ahead but I have conference and faith in the subway train drivers.

Also the street level sound around Victoria train station was loud levels where near and over 100dbc dba was slightly less within 80 to 90dba range. Also don’t forget its not just man and machine there are footsteps people talking at all add up to frighteningly high SPL.

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk123/IndianaJones34/LondonundergroundSPL1.jpg

This girl here was (busking) around or near too the (Jubilee line) this where I had to make switch from tubes to connect to the Victoria line. I stopped and listened and while I heard this loud sound when going down the near 100 foot escalator I though the sound was coming from a PA horn located to the ceiling near the end of the escalator that was until I crouched down slightly and saw it was girl performing with a portable amplifier.

It was very loud if not too much top end but I guess it was needed due to the loudness of the footsteps on the hollow concrete tube passageways that reflects all-around.

The dbA was near to 100dba near!


http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk123/IndianaJones34/LondonundergroundSPL2.jpg


What else is there to do London is weird place and no is going to care about questioning anyone, least of all me with my SPL db in hand while waiting for the next tube train to come along, and the loudness is loud, its not earth moving vibration its quite mild as the tubes come travel along the long pathway.

I guess if you did the couching down itching dragon technique, with your hands placed firmly on the floor you might sense vibration low end. I guess portable spectrum analyzer will show more or less what is happening and that might be my next future investment a cheap model as the costs can be quite high for some models and basic one is all I’d what for checking out the Empire.

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk123/IndianaJones34/LondonundergroundSPL3.jpg


As you can see I took this picture not shy nor embarrassed to see what the level is on the inside of the tube.

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk123/IndianaJones34/LondonundergroundSPL4.jpg


She looks hot and sexy :smsex: :p not that I was really looking at her, but the facial expiration is concentration and she really looks like she’s engrossed into that book?

[Titanium Dome]

Then maybe you should think before you post. :D

I still don't get what you are going on about. I am certainly not ashamed of my curiousity about the relative volumes that we listen to our music.

I'd bet the times you have crept up to 107dB, there was prodigious bass information in your program... 107dB with most music is pretty darned loud. However, with some contemporary music that has extremely low frequency and prominent bass the subjective SPL will not be as high as you might expect. Even more so if you were using dB-C instead of the more typical dB-A.


Widget

Correct no doubt. Most of the trance I listen to is heavy in the bass department, and since they're often MP3s @ 192-227 kbps (VBR), the highest frequencies are usually MIA. (But heck, I can't hear them anyway.)

[Titanium Dome]

All my measurements are C weighted. I only need them for reference around the house. I'm not setting up for a stage show or a PA system.

[boputnam]

...it would seem we are all listening at around 95dB. Which while certainly not "concert level", is actually fairly loud.95 dB, A-weighted is about where I run my shows, measured at FOH. It is certainly louder at the stacks, and, too often, louder still on stage ( :( ), but if I keep things to 95dB or below, I find it is plenty loud. Larger houses and outdoors I am further away and so 85-90dB or so at FOH seems fine. With line-arrays, I tend toward less, because they project so efficiently with less drop in dB.

But, sometimes it is damned quiet. I did a festival yesterday where I ran the headliner at ~90dB, max and I was only 40-ft back. The proprietor had me run the closing act at maybe 70-75dB. Could have been less, even. I had to use headphones because what I was able to hear was not representative of the mix.


With the meter set on "C" weighting, and in "fast" mode, the average db's were in the 84-86 range, with peaks of 94-96db's! I was surprised that it was actually that loud! Measurements in C are interesting, but the A-weighting emphasizes that portion of the curve where the ear is most sensitive to hearing damage/loss with sustained noise levels.


All my measurements are C weighted. I only need them for reference around the house. I'm not setting up for a stage show or a PA system.A is all that matters in SR. I've posted before, I pay particular attention to the actual room / field response and ensure that the response curve is as flat as possible. Any emphasis in the 1.5kHz to 5.5kHz range is bad - it will aggravate listeners and make them tire of the show, sooner. And, this is the range for ringing, afterwards. In some houses, I have demphasized this range toward the end of the night. If my ears are "tiring", so are theirs.

[Andyoz]

95 dB, A-weighted is about where I run my shows, measured at FOH. It is certainly louder at the stacks, and, too often, louder still on stage ( :( ), but if I keep things to 95dB or below, I find it is plenty loud.

That's a good level and a sign of an experienced mixer...???

We do monitoring of events and we find the biggest problem is the inexperienced FOH guys that reach the "limit" about half way through the show and panic because they feel they haven't any SPL left to raise things for the encore.

The best FOH guy I ever saw at work was with the Red Hot Chilli Peppers. He asked what the noise limit was, then proceeded to steadily increase the SPL level until he reached the limit about half way through the set. With a good vibe set up in the audience, he then proceeded to gradually drop the SPL about 3dB over a few songs (no one noticed) to leave himself a bit of headroom for the encore.

[JBL 4645]

A is all that matters in SR. I've posted before, I pay particular attention to the actual room / field response and ensure that the response curve is as flat as possible. Any emphasis in the 1.5kHz to 5.5kHz range is bad - it will aggravate listeners and make them tire of the show, sooner. And, this is the range for ringing, afterwards. In some houses, I have demphasized this range toward the end of the night. If my ears are "tiring", so are theirs.


bop
Are you saying that 1.5 and 5.5Khz is an annoyance to the ear though testing I would imagine? If that’s the case then I’m going to do some experiments between those two frequencies.

[JBobL]

Here is a related challenge to the DIY in you guys. How 'bout we make our own SPL meters that hang on the wall like a digital clock? So at any point in time you can look up and see the SPL? The display could be placed anywhere and the mic (electret) hidden in the front of an armrest, chair back at shoulder level, hang from a ceiling light fixture disguised as a chain light switch.... Too ambitious?
Just a novelty I guess. I bet those people that buy monster cable would buy one! Or those with the $99K speakers.:)

[cooky1257]

She looks hot and sexy :smsex: :p not that I was really looking at her, but the facial expiration is concentration and she really looks like she’s engrossed into that book? [/FONT][/SIZE]

:(:spchless:

[JBL 4645]

:(:spchless:

Hehehehe dirty ole bugger aren’t I. :D

[Rolf]

My readings is dbA. I know it is to load, but don't use this level much. But, from time to time, mostly listening to live recordings it feels right at this level.

Normal level is about 85-90 dbA for me.

Widget: :applaud:

[Bob Womack]

I can't afford to irradiate myself because loss of hearing is a threat to my income. As a result, both at work and at home, I've calibrated my systems so that I know where 85dba is produced and I keep it there or lower. Every once in a while I'll treat myself with a little push up to 90, but safe exposure time goes down logarithmically with increase in volume. 85db is the limit for an eight hour day. I'm also limited in that my wife has migraines that are triggered and aggravated by loud sounds, so I have to keep things in check while she's around.

An interesting sidebar - The last time I went to a large concert, it was one held in an indoor sports arena. The silly FOH engineer made the classic mistake of thinking he could overcome the oppressive reverb with sheer volume. He must have been pushing 115db or more. The system was utterly flogged, yielding the worst combination of driver and amp distortion, reverb mush, and ear distortion I've ever encountered. I spent the entire event with the plugs in.

Bob

[Andyoz]

An interesting sidebar - The last time I went to a large concert, it was one held in an indoor sports arena. The silly FOH engineer made the classic mistake of thinking he could overcome the oppressive reverb with sheer volume.

Unfortunately, there are many out there like that.

[mikebake]

When I'm listening to my endless loop recording of "Bush/Cheney are sucky criminals!" I find average levels are around 95db.

[Ducatista47]

Last night I hauled out the RS meter while I was watching/listening to a concert DVD (The Derek Trucks Band - Songlines Live, highly recommended). dBA hung at about 78, never going over 81. This was in two channel on my good setup, so it was clear as a bell. No need to turn it up to hear details, but it was still as loud as I wanted it to be. Another 6dB would not have hurt anything, but I didn't feel like it. More volume would have been forthcoming, but no more information.

This was from my listening position. I already knew I have sensitive hearing, but I am surprised it wasn't 85 or 88dBA.

Edit: Maybe the fact that I always listen in the evening when the rest of the family is out or asleep has something to do with it.

I find that I rarely get up to that setting under normal circumstances. In the evening, I'm generally 10-15 dB below that, and sometimes it still seems too loud.

It is also true that my back yard borders on a forest and there is never really any sound from outside to deal with.

I agree with Dome, and Ian has said this in the past too, that if your system is very clear there is no need to turn it up to enhance the experience. Unless you want to have a dance party or re-live past ear shredding concerts you enjoyed. Personally, my slight tinnitus is all the nostalgia I need for my sometimes foolish past.

Clark

[boputnam]

That's a good level and a sign of an experienced mixer...???

We do monitoring of events and we find the biggest problem is the inexperienced FOH guys that reach the "limit" about half way through the show and panic because they feel they haven't any SPL left to raise things for the encore.Hi, Andy...

If that's your definition, I qualify. :)

I've never boosted gain for the encore. Never needed to. Matter of fact, if I can get away with it, I try to subtly lower the gain, later, as the ears are fatigued and it begins to seem loud to everyone. But, that's just my 35-yrs of inexperience...


Here is a related challenge to the DIY in you guys. How 'bout we make our own SPL meters that hang on the wall like a digital clock? So at any point in time you can look up and see the SPL? :)I've worked clubs where they have those, prominent. It's pretty crazy, and a few have been wrongly calibrated. I know some engineers who have a large digital display on their laptop to avert arguments with the proprietor.


The last time I went to a large concert, it was one held in an indoor sports arena. The silly FOH engineer made the classic mistake of thinking he could overcome the oppressive reverb with sheer volume. He must have been pushing 115db or more. The system was utterly flogged, yielding the worst combination of driver and amp distortion, reverb mush, and ear distortion I've ever encountered. I spent the entire event with the plugs in.Bob, those are terrible situations. I don't go to arena shows as a rule...

Anther common mistake is excess sub. Too often, there are too many subs being driven too hard - the subs are out-of-balance with the mains. LF coupling loads the stage area, making it hard for the artists to hear, so they turn up. That mud wall confounds the mix, and so the FOH guy turns up. Wrong approach. I dial the subs back so their output is matched with the mains. That opens up the mix, so the bass tonality comes through and the kick drum has punch without need for excessive compression. The vocals are right on top, and the gain structure great. No need for high SPL (and no need to boost the encore, either... :p ).

Loud is easy. Good gain structure and clean mix is the challenge...

[Hoerninger]

Good gain structure and clean mix is the challenge...

Although my job is completely different most of the time, sometimes I help live performers in an auditorium.
My aim usually is to assist the voices so that it is not noticed by the audience.There is not much to do, phase, panpot and some equalisation of not so perfect microphones (fixed position) but mainly running flat with little sound level enhancement.

We tested a new speaker combination, in that room it was critical with feedback. After adjusting the choir master went into the audience for listening and commented the final demonstration that he could not hear any help from amplification. (For me it was a big compliment. )
I shut off and than he was pleased too. :)
___________
Peter

[Oldmics]

"Loud is easy. Good gain structure and clean mix is the challenge... "

Especially a clean mix,when you have Cookie Monster as the lead vocalist :barf:

Add in some subterrianium kick drum and guttural vocals and its another day in paradise. :banghead:

Oldmics

[allen mueller]

I checked last night and I'm usually around the low 80's (dbA) on my radio shack meter.


Allen

[Allanvh5150]

I would have to agree with Oldmics. You can go way louder with a clean signal and not damage your hearing. I was a live sound engineer for a very long time and my hearing is still way better than it should be. I could still hear 18.5Khz last hearing test. Distortion is a killer for loudspeakers and your ears are no different. I dont know how loud I run sometimes, but with 4.5Kw, it must be.

[grumpy]

I would have to agree with Oldmics. You can go way louder with a clean signal and not damage your hearing. ...

Hi Allan,

I would hate to see someone less knowledgeable than yourself, read that statement
and tempt fate in going "way louder" because it still sounded clean.

Although I believe I understand the basis for this notion (and understanding that
I'm no otologist), without more information to guide what is reasonably safe,
to me it seems like an irresponsible blanket statement.

http://www.hei.org/news/facts/nihlfact.htm

I -am- glad to see that you've been fortunate in your continued occupation and
lack of hearing loss, in regard to frequency.

OK... I'm done trying to be everyone's mommy. :p

-grumpy

[Mr. Widget]

You mean extended listening at 125dB through my pair of Everest IIs will hurt my hearing? :(



Widget

[grumpy]

Make sure you clean the signal first, then you should be OK. ;)

[Titanium Dome]

You mean extended listening at 125dB through my pair of Everest IIs will hurt my hearing? :(



Widget

What?

[Titanium Dome]

From http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Site_Images/EarHorn.jpg

[JBL 4645]

What the heck is this radar ears!:rotfl:

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=33734&stc=1&d=1218584009

[Ducatista47]

JBL4565, you new avatar is from Logan's Run? It looks like Michael York and Jenny Agutter.

Clark, Cinema Crazy in Peoria

[JBL 4645]

JBL4565, you new avatar is from Logan's Run? It looks like Michael York and Jenny Agutter.

Clark, Cinema Crazy in Peoria

Ducatista

Exactly it’s a production photo from the film. I selected it after looking around at so many images in Google image and then stumbled onto this one. So this will be the new avatar for the time being with JBL Dolby and THX logo inserted into the picture.

Wouldn’t it also be better to place high frequency absorbent materiel on the inside of he radar ears because the sound, I would imagine it would be very shrilly as it hits the smooth corners and then onto the ears?

[Ducatista47]

Well, I am an idiot. I could have looked at your signature. :o: Not to mention 4645 is not 4565...

Clark, apparently senile in Peoria

[Allanvh5150]

And dont forget that you can still damage your hearing with an MP3 player!

[cooky1257]

And dont forget that you can still damage your hearing with an MP3 player!

And anything by Coldplay.:)

[JBL 4645]

Well, I am an idiot. I could have looked at your signature. :o: Not to mention 4645 is not 4565...

Clark, apparently senile in Peoria

4645, 4565
You know those would make good lottery numbers you know.:D

Say does anyone use there JBL model number as lottery numbers, not that I have played the national lottery since early last year.

I could use the number 1 from my JBL control 1
Then use the number 5 from my JBL control 5
Then the number 4645 but in this sequence

1 5 45 46 then use the model number 2240 that is the sub bass driver so now that I have six row of numbers.

1, 2, 22, 40, 45, 46, LOL:D

Hmmm, I think I’m going to play those numbers this Saturday LOL

[Rolf]

Are you crazy?:D I will not dare to use the same numbers every time. Think about if the numbers goes in, and for some reason you haven't delivered the coupon.

I always use the machine in the shop that pics random numbers.


4645, 4565
You know those would make good lottery numbers you know.:D

Say does anyone use there JBL model number as lottery numbers, not that I have played the national lottery since early last year.

I could use the number 1 from my JBL control 1
Then use the number 5 from my JBL control 5
Then the number 4645 but in this sequence

1 5 45 46 then use the model number 2240 that is the sub bass driver so now that I have six row of numbers.

1, 2, 22, 40, 45, 46, LOL:D

Hmmm, I think I’m going to play those numbers this Saturday LOL

[demon]

I always use the machine in the shop that pics random numbers.
i use that machine to choose my jbl drivers.

:applaud:


btw: 95dB are pretty loud in my opinion, and in an untreated room unbearable for my tiny little ears.
soft, tender and hairy, they are.

:o:


cheers,
mikey

[Rolf]

i use that machine to choose my jbl drivers.

cheers,
mikey

How can you? The lotto numbers are two digits - 01-34. The JBL (pro) drivers are four.:blink:

[hjames]

Make sure you clean the signal first, then you should be OK. ;)

Clean Signal?? What about when I listen to Neil Young and CrazyHorse?
They don't hit you right unless its Real Dang Loud!

[boputnam]

...and CrazyHorse?Ah...

Billy Talbot's playing a festival I'm working this weekend - I'll say "howdy... :wave: " for ya! Really nice guy, btw...

[JBL 4645]

i use that machine to choose my jbl drivers.

:applaud:


btw: 95dB are pretty loud in my opinion, and in an untreated room unbearable for my tiny little ears.
soft, tender and hairy, they are.

:o:


cheers,
mikey

LOL oh, good one. LOL:rotfl:

[JBL 4645]

Well talking about loudness I conducted this simple test for enjoyment.




Just how realistic are ambient sound and do they often fit within the room without being too exaggerated in loudness.

I tested one scene from a film that I was looking over with low end frequency waterfalls. Then one scene caught my attention with "Executive Decision" (1996) when Doctor Grant played by (Kurt Russell)


http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk123/IndianaJones34/ExecutiveDecisionJusthowrealisticDV.jpg


http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk123/IndianaJones34/ExecutiveDecisionJusthowrealisti-1.jpg


The levels of the AVR was set at -9db separates with DCX2496 amplifiers Alesis RA300 LF and Marantz 1050 HF all set to comfortable room levels.


http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk123/IndianaJones34/ExecutiveDecisionJusthowrealisti-2.jpg


http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk123/IndianaJones34/ExecutiveDecisionJusthowrealisti-3.jpg


http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk123/IndianaJones34/ExecutiveDecisionJusthowrealisti-4.jpg

The scene when demonstrated was heard with an extreme mild level on the left and right with part of (Kurt Russell’s dialogue heard on left and right) but at an extreme low level “If this was DZ5” with haunting knocking music sound on the left and right.


http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk123/IndianaJones34/ExecutiveDecisionJusthowrealisti-5.jpg

The centre is slight different mix with more of the water droplet sound effect into the glass as it plops down into the water.


http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk123/IndianaJones34/ExecutiveDecisionJusthowrealisti-6.jpg


http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk123/IndianaJones34/ExecutiveDecisionJusthowrealisti-7.jpg

The level is around or within 50dba at 1metre distance.

I tested the idea out with plastic cup filled with water and placed within the same area, only don’t place water on top of electrical items! I conducted a few delicate tests and the water dropped within close proximity.


http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk123/IndianaJones34/ExecutiveDecisionsingledrop1.jpg


http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk123/IndianaJones34/ExecutiveDecisionsingledrop4.jpg

The crossover frequency for DCX2496, is set for each channel is equal the bass-mid at 1Khz and HF at 1Khz upwards. While muting the HF I found that the sound was more than audible while (left and right was muted) the centre LF produced more than enough audible range. With LF muted and HF running it was somewhat different sound far lesser.

While looking the centre channel EQ the effect is 1 KHz thou it might be just a little more wider.

LCR front loudspeakers used are JBL control 5.

[cooky1257]

Fascinating.

[Andyoz]

Ash, you need a bigger TV...seriously...:)

[hjames]

Ash, you need a bigger TV...seriously...:)
He's said before he's had to fight the UK TV tax folks to convince them he only watches films and doesn't watching the Beeb so he doesn't owe any TV Tax ... But if he had a larger set it'd probably be a tougher fight.

Ash - Look out for those TV monitoring trucks!

http://www.oobject.com/category/sinister-bbc-spy-vehicles/

[JBL 4645]

He's said before he's had to fight the UK TV tax folks to convince them he only watches films and doesn't watching the Beeb so he doesn't owe any TV Tax ... But if he had a larger set it'd probably be a tougher fight.

Ash - Look out for those TV monitoring trucks!

http://www.oobject.com/category/sinister-bbc-spy-vehicles/

LOL those are HISTORY! they haven’t used them in decades now!

They calmly call around and one has and I calmly invited him in and he saw that I couldn’t give a hoot about British TV one way or the other, and took me off the list. That was last March.

Besides once the UK goes fully digital which should take another few years, with Bournemouth being the last on the list, so I read. There will be no way I could possibly receive digital unless I had digital box or one of those yucky plasma or crappy LCD with the screen lagging, built into them.

I think it’s called free digital or some bullshit made up word the BBC is using?

I’m seriously not in the least bit interested in digital British HD not if Mr.$6milliondollar bribed me with £10.000.00pounds! I’d just throw it back in his face!

All this HD means is more re-runs of crappy Doctor dodgy Who in HD black&white, the BBC can cram the future broadcasting up there well laid ass!

[hjames]

yeah, you're right - this is from 2002 - that's simply DECADES ago!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/pressoffice/pressreleases/stories/2002/05_may/15/nao_report.shtml


LOL those are HISTORY! they haven’t used them in decades now!

They calmly call around and one has and I calmly invited him in and he saw that I couldn’t give a hoot about British TV one way or the other, and took me off the list. That was last March

All this HD means is more re-runs of crappy Doctor dodgy Who in HD black&white, the BBC can cram the future broadcasting up there well laid ass!

Actually, the new Doctor Who is VERY good and the season 4 finale a month or so back weeks back was the top rate show in the UK that night ... seems Lots of people find the new Doctor Who very good.

[JBL 4645]

You should come to UK and live here for few years while owning a TV and watching British television broadcasts without a licence fee, doesn’t matter if you’re watching ITV1 the BBC will still have you nicked and tossed into jail,:( so much for your love for the BBC.

[hjames]

You should come to UK and live here for few years while owning a TV and watching British television broadcasts without a licence fee, doesn’t matter if you’re watching ITV1 the BBC will still have you nicked and tossed into jail,:( so much for your love for the BBC.)

Nowhere in the thread did I say or imply you should cheat the BBC - shame on you for misquoting me!

[cooky1257]

The law clearly states that if you have a TV set that can receive and display broadcasts you need a license.:yes:
Well done if you've gotten away with it but that looks like a TV to me not a monitor.
HD is wonderful btw, you really should give it a go it'll blow away that 250 line resolution you're putting up with and give your JBL sounds a picture they deserve.:yes:

[JBL 4645]

No where in the thread did I say or imply you should cheat the BBC - shame on you!

Shame, yes shame on me, shame on me for not being a true British goodie, goodie citizen yes shame on me, and damn myself. I’m rebellious about this country or let’s say the BBC is the secret government kinder like when the IRS knock on your door hold you down and bugger :smsex:you up! That’s the BBC policy!

[JBL 4645]

The law clearly states that if you have a TV set that can receive and display broadcasts you need a license.:yes:
Well done if you've gotten away with it but that looks like a TV to me not a monitor.
HD is wonderful btw, you really should give it a go it'll blow away that 250 line resolution you're putting up with and give your JBL sounds a picture they deserve.:yes:

Now if I wanted to remove the tuner that wouldn’t be too hard to de-solder and toss out the window. If you came around and lived with me for a month the only thing you’ll be watching is laserdisc DVD or the highway!

My last set was a SONY monitor but she gave up the ghost. And I found that Toshiba believe it or not dumped in the alleyway early last year, this was during the winter season and after living it in the room to warm up while removing the back and drying off any condensation.

I turned it on, and wow it worked and produced a crisp clear contrast cool whites and nice blacks and colour was nicely toned with RGB mode.:bouncy:

[hjames]

Oh no. Your buggery is your own business. Enjoy.
As we say over here, thats TMI (Too Much Information). I don't want to know!

Now if you don't wanna buy OTA (Over The Air) TV programming, have it. Thats not a patriotic or non-patriotic thing, thats just your choice and bully for you! We certainly have our share of garbage on US TV (Big Brother and all the so-called reality TV shows).
All I did was kid you about the secret police vans (mostly 'cause the older one was so weird lookin')
and I said you ought to have a bigger set to enjoy your movies. And you should. Big movies need a big TV.

I'm no fan of the Vicar of Dibley, Coronation Street, or those other brit shows that are too formulaic and pretty lame to boot.
'Course I don't like formulaic shows on US TV either ...

Just don't pick on the new Doctor Who - that show did good over your way and the US and Canadian cable TV companies bought it and have been running it here.


Shame, yes shame on me, shame on me for not being a true British goodie, goodie citizen yes shame on me, and damn myself. I’m rebellious about this country or let’s say the BBC is the secret government kinder like when the IRS knock on your door hold you down and bugger you up! That’s the BBC policy!

[JBL 4645]

I know a friend who is obsessed about watching Eastenders Coronation Street Emmerdale Farm or just Emmerdale, now! Brookside and he has the TV turned on in the kitchen in the living room thou he denies it’s a home cinema room, and that room is just but a few steps away from peeking around the corner and you can see this large LCD 42” screen with lagging, yuck! and yet the 12” CRT looks ten times better in the kitchen.:rotfl:

British Buggering Corporation if you don’t corporative with the BBC they hold you down and Bugger you up!:smsex:

Fuck the BBC!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=osD1FgKCDXk&feature=related

[Allanvh5150]

I get the distinct feeling that someone here has a problem with the BBC. I would have to agree that they do have a lot of crap programming but you can't knock Doctor Who, new or old. The new series has retained a lot of the originals corniness and I still enjoy it a lot. As for licence fees, I didnt think anyone in the world had them any more.........Do you need one for a radio? If not, what is the difference between recieving radio and TV?

[JBL 4645]

I’d take Star Trek over Doctor Who I was follower of the show in my childhood but now my eyes are open. Heck the BBC couldn’t even fund the show with decent enough make-up sets and special effects. All the set-pieces looked like it was recycled cardboard from last weeks Blue Peter.

[Titanium Dome]

Well, we're so far off-thread that I'll give it a throw.

I had a mate from England who was a footballer who played for Sheffield United out at the Don Valley Stadium. Sheffield United do not (or did not at the time) pay a full living wage, so most of the players had side jobs to pay the rent and pay the beer tab at the pub.

This cheeky chap sold cable TV subscriptions, and he was very persuasive. The best story I have on him was when he was trying to sell cable to an old woman who had no TV. She thought this would put him off and he'd go.

Instead, he grabbed her Sunday paper and pulled up the adverts and found her a nice TV, convinced her to call the number to buy it, sold her the cable subscription, and left. The poor old lady still didn't have the TV in her flat, and no way to get it, either.

When he boasted about this after we'd all gotten pi$$ed at the pub, we laughed, then grabbed his arse and dragged him to the old lady's flat, scared the knickers off her, got the address for the TV, and made him carry it all the way to her place and install it. Being somewhat less drunk by now, it still took him a fairly long time, telling us all to get buggered the whole time. She certainly enjoyed seeing him sweat.

Then we went back to the Fat Cat, bought him a pint, and we were all friends again.

http://www.thefatcat.co.uk/86index.htm

[JBL 4645]

LOL nice one I liked that well told. :applaud:


Well, we're so far off-thread that I'll give it a throw.

I had a mate from England who was a footballer who played for Sheffield United out at the Don Valley Stadium. Sheffield United do not (or did not at the time) pay a full living wage, so most of the players had side jobs to pay the rent and pay the beer tab at the pub.

This cheeky chap sold cable TV subscriptions, and he was very persuasive. The best story I have on him was when he was trying to sell cable to an old woman who had no TV. She thought this would put him off and he'd go.

Instead, he grabbed her Sunday paper and pulled up the adverts and found her a nice TV, convinced her to call the number to buy it, sold her the cable subscription, and left. The poor old lady still didn't have the TV in her flat, and no way to get it, either.

When he boasted about this after we'd all gotten pi$$ed at the pub, we laughed, then grabbed his arse and dragged him to the old lady's flat, scared the knickers off her, got the address for the TV, and made him carry it all the way to her place and install it. Being somewhat less drunk by now, it still took him a fairly long time, telling us all to get buggered the whole time. She certainly enjoyed seeing him sweat.

Then we went back to the Fat Cat, bought him a pint, and we were all friends again.

http://www.thefatcat.co.uk/86index.htm

[Tweak48]

I've found it pretty decent, myself. Opinions?????

I like the show where the restaurant guy goes around and fixes failing restaurants. Reality TV at it's best!!!!:D

[JBL 4645]

This topic may not be total lost. Ever heard the word, “turn down that bloody TV” that’s a quote I remember reading in electricians magazine or was it a Hi-Fi magazine around 18, 19 years ago. I think I still have it around somewhere.

[JBobL]

I am shocked! Shocked, I tell you.
My normal listening level is only~70dB. Volume set at -35db
Normal cranked dB is only~80. Volume set at -25dB
Vne (Volume/never exceed) setting -20dB produces only ~85dB.
This is all A weighted. C weighted Vne is ~95dB. It's just a 70 wpc HK525. The subs add a lot to the C weighted.:)
Used radio rock music for testing and waited for louder songs to get general idea of max listening level. :)
Really expected to get higher readings. Tomorrow when I test the 2 channel rig I'm sure to get higher readings.:D

[Rolf]

What does all the BBC talk :blah:and strange pictures have to do with the original question: How loud do you like it?:blink::banghead::biting:

[Andyoz]

I am shocked! Shocked, I tell you.
My normal listening level is only~70dB. Volume set at -35db
Normal cranked dB is only~80. Volume set at -25dB
Vne (Volume/never exceed) setting -20dB produces only ~85dB.

I'm with you there.

I just did some more tests and would actually normally listen at 85dBA (average Leq). At 90dBA, I feel like I'm really cranking it and want to leave the room. The subjective difference in volume levels in a "domestic" setting versus a "live music" setting are quite extreme.

I would happily listen to live music at levels 10dB higher than at home without feeling it its excessive provided the FOH system is running clean. I think the horn loading used in live music system has alot to do with it...you are tricked into thinking the system isn't running as load as it really is. Modern PA system have massive power reserves and are very effecient so will generally be running cleaner at much higher levels than a normal non-horn loaded domestic system (even taking into account the roonm size differential).

I would not be surprised if people running horn loaded systems at home typically run higher SPL's than those that don't (like my 250Ti's).

dBC levels are another story of course (add 10dB to all my levels quoted above).

If anyone is posting more levels, use the dBA, dBC or dB* designations so we can compare apples with apples. (* = unweighted "linear").

[cooky1257]

The BBC is excellent IMO, the license fee funds far more than TV programming-5 tv channels(1HD),7 national psb radio stations, local psb stations, some cutting edge R&D, best news web site in the world and best of all carries no advertising-which bringing it back on topic..if running the tv sound through the HT set-up the sound levels on commercials can be on average up to 6dB louder than programming, heavily compressed too so when they kick in it can be very unpleasant.

[Ducatista47]

I can't think of a single word to disagree with in Andy's post.

I would not be surprised if people running horn loaded systems at home ion average run higher SPL's than those that don't (like my 250Ti's).
I do listen at 4-6 dBA less than that, but I will soon have my 4345's back in service and will probably find more sound coming from the horns as well. My Full Range system is so startlingly clear, not much volume is needed to create the needed experience. Of course one full watt would blow me out of the room. These figures are from the listening position, correct?

Off topic, I would do whatever it took to keep BBC news going. The only source I can trust, plus I can web in BBC Scotland, news of my ancestral homeland.

Clark

[Robh3606]

I run at a about 80-90 C weighted using my SPL meter. It depends, I generally will settle at whatever volume sounds "right" for what I am listening too. I have always listened at this volume and resisted the temptation when I changed over to more efficient speakers to jack things up. Always a little paranoid about messing my hearing up. But with live DVD's or CD's the volume does go up as it seems appropriate to do so.

Rob:)

[JBobL]

The SPL in my bedroom is even less. I had to use C weighted because A weighted would not register on the RS.
75dBC sounds loud here.
Usually set the sleep timer on the AVR for 60 and put on DSOTM. Next morning i can't remember hearing the 3rd song ha ha. I have tinnitus bad. Without some kind of background noise like window AC, radio/tv I go nuts but that just affects high frequency hearing right. Can't hear test tone above 15K.

[Mr. Widget]

The SPL in my bedroom is even less. I had to use C weighted because A weighted would not register on the RS.
75dBC sounds loud here.The use of "C" weighted measurements is very likely more "accurate" in many cases however the point is one of comparison. The standard is "A" weighted measurements.

A quiet bedroom is typically far below 50dB in level so it wouldn't be surprising that a very low level would seem appropriate. Here is a quote from the 1974 JBL Catalog... they suggested that a fairly low SPL was "comfortable", but I suppose it depends on what is going on. If the music is the reason for being in the room, something louder may seem appropriate, however if you have friends over and are having a cocktail party, you would likely want a lower level.


Widget
.

[JBL 4645]

What does all the BBC talk :blah:and strange pictures have to do with the original question: How loud do you like it?:blink::banghead::biting:


Sorry Rolf I was just thinking out loud.:D

By the way I found that article in that magazine, the magazine is called Studio Sound March 1990 volume 32 no. 3.

The topic is on page 53 called: Noise or Music? It’s [excuse my I’m eat at the present time] covers 6 pages with a few diagram illustrations.

Article was written by (Ken Dibble) so if you can Google this up and find a white paper under pdf good luck because I’m afraid it amounts to needle in haystack.

[JBL 4645]

Quote from Studio Sound March 1990 volume 32 no. 3 page 56.

The Whittle & Robinson report provide the startling line for what is probably the most extensive study of the subject yet undertaken, in which the sound levels in 49 discotheques were monitored and the habits of 4,166 attendees studied. The survey was carried out as a course project at Leeds Polytechnic’s School of Constructional Studies with John Bickerdike as project leader. Again the conclusions reached 9 are based on DRC after Burns & Robinson 3 and Robinson & Shipton 4:

[JBL 4645]

I like the advertisement of NEUTRIK Swiss connections now that is hot!:bouncy::smsex:

[JBL 4645]

Here’s photo of the article I’m reading though. Would you believe I found this magazine in an office that me and my dad where converting into school. There it was lying on the floor, I picked up flipped though and my dad says “do you what that otherwise throw in the dustbin”.

Can’t believe I’ve been humping this magazine around for 18 years now? :blink::D

[JBL 4645]

Quote from Studio Sound March 1990 volume 32 no. 3 page 54.

The subjective element

How many times has a fraught parent yelled at a teenager son or daughter “turn that x#$?&!* television down- it’s too loud-I can’t hear myself think!” often during a music based programme. Yet this is clearly an impossibility. The television set’s loudspeaker has sensitivity ratting of about 88db and amplifier rarted little over 2 watts. Thus the maximum possible SPL at 1 metre from the loudspeaker is over 90dbA. So it is not the fact that the sound is too loud that is the cause of the parental distress, it is the high level of distortion inherent in most domestic audio/video equipment coupled with a subjective dislike of the program content that will have offended mum’s auditory senses.

[boputnam]

...you are tricked into thinking the system isn't running as load as it really is.Uh, yup.

It used to be headroom was the limiting factor, but that is no longer the case. It is ever-more important that we know where we are gain-wise, because the systems can easily beyond where we should. That is real headroom and a testament to the ever-evolving technologies at all points in the signal path. Ever cleaner, with lower power consumption, and hopefully, better.

[richluvsound]

hi Folks,

loud enough to be able to dry my cloths by holding them in front of the ports.
just kidding ! The 45's do like to play loud now and then. After all , they aint near field monitors. 80 - 90 db for me . Anything, more and the room comes alive.

Rich

[Andyoz]

Rich...you're alive?!?!!?

Do you fancy doing up some 4315's for your smaller place? http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=21927

[richluvsound]

Andy,

i'll nab'em if the stay under £200 !

rich

[macaroonie]

You have all the luck down there in the smoke. They are worth way more than £200 but you know that. Super mid size speaker for the bedroom , oh I forgot, you have my 4333's in there.
I was wondering where you had disappeared to ...... I bet a woman is involved hmmmmm ? :p

[richluvsound]

Hi Mac,

i don't have tons of cash at the moment . I'm thinking rears for HT:D


BTW the 4333's now speak Russian !

Women is a banned word and concept !:banghead:

Rich

[Guido]

Hey Richard!

Good to have you back here ;)

[merlin]

Really ;)

[Guido]

Really ;)

I don't understand this question.
If it should be funny, announce it so I can laugh.

If it shouldn't be funny :bs:

[merlin]

I find it funny Guido. You may not.;)

[Mr. Widget]

After all , they aint near field monitors. 80 - 90 db for me . Anything, more and the room comes alive.I've noticed this sort of phenomenon myself... meaning that in rooms that are more live, at a certain SPL the room seems to take over.

Andy, can you or one of the other acoustic types here explain this? Why would SPL affect the apparent influence of reverberation?


Widget

[Andyoz]

I don't really think there is a technical explanation for it!

The direct to reverberant ratio should essentially stay the same for any given room + speaker arrangement irrespective of SPL. For example, if you're getting 3dB more reflected sound than direct at 80dB, then the same ratio applies at 100dB. If the speakers dispersion pattern changes with SPL, then that may throw things out a bit.

I think in highly reverberant rooms it more of a case of the listener suddenly reaching an SPL level where they think... "there's loads of reflected energy hitting me here and I don't like it". Another thing to remember is that in "harsh" sounding rooms, the reflected energy is likely to have a severely distorted frequency spectrum compared to the sweet sounds coming directly from the speakers. Your ear will apply a loudness "penalty" too that harsh reflected energy. So as the SPL levels of the direct and reverb increase, the reverb level may well sound like it is getting louder compared to the direct level. If you could isolate each source and actually measure it, the relative levels should still be the same at low and high SPL's (if that makes sense).

The ear/brain thing is weird. You only have to Google "Hass effect" to realise how much processing your brain is doing. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haas_effect

Another explanation is that Rich is getting on a bit now and his ears are getting a wee bit sensitive! :D

[cooky1257]

Could it be down to reverberation? At lower levels the reflected sounds will decay till below a certain noise floor ie below audibilty but as you pump energy at ever higher levels this reverberation becomes reinforced and more audible and annoying?

[boputnam]

I've noticed this sort of phenomenon myself... meaning that in rooms that are more live, at a certain SPL the room seems to take over. It's all about energy.


I don't really think there is a technical explanation for it! Ah, but there is - and you give it, here...


The direct to reverberant ratio should essentially stay the same for any given room + speaker arrangement irrespective of SPL. For example, if you're getting 3dB more reflected sound than direct at 80dB, then the same ratio applies at 100dB.

I've noticed in some reverberant venues that too soft is as bad as too loud - too soft and the reverberations are like a badly timed delay unit; too loud and it's an overwhelming cacophony. "Just loud enough" is tough to establish and hard to sustain, but it can make for a tolerable show.

[Andyoz]

Could it be down to reverberation? At lower levels the reflected sounds will decay till below a certain noise floor ie below audibilty but as you pump energy at ever higher levels this reverberation becomes reinforced and more audible and annoying?

Cooky, I like your style man but....

In reality, with a time varying signal like music you never get to hear the full 60dB decay of a full reverb time. Your ear is more attuned to the Early Decay Time (EDT). This is the rate "slope" over the first 10dB of the decay. With music, think of it as a "running reverberance" with each impulse of the music signal quickly masking what has come before. The EDT is just as (or even more) imprtant than the classic reverb time measurement.

So you really only get to hear the first 10-15dB of decay. Even at a low level SPL levels of say 70dBA, you only get to really hear the part of the decay down to 55-60dBA bfore it gets swamped by a new part of music signal. These levels are well above any noise floor though.

[Andyoz]

Ah, but there is - and you give it, here...

Cool, I must be smarter than I think...

p.s. I still don't see what the answer is though.:p

[Fred Sanford]

Took a couple quick measurements lately, all A weighted:

Behind my drums in my home studio, just drums playing:

90-100 dB

Basement theater, concert DVD in 5.1 surround on temp Cantons:

75-85 dB

Outdoor live horn-driven funk band PA, comfortable volume @ ~ 50' from stage:

~85dB

More later, I'll check my low/med/high levels for the LR surround & music systems, plus re-check the basement theater once I swap the JBLs back in.

je

[cooky1257]

Cooky, I like your style man but....


So you really only get to hear the first 10-15dB of decay. Even at a low level SPL levels of say 70dBA, you only get to really hear the part of the decay down to 55-60dBA bfore it gets swamped by a new part of music signal. These levels are well above any noise floor though.

You say the nicest things;-)
I mangled some terms and meant inaudible rather than audibilty-my reasoning still stands though.
The swamping will occur at a certain level(my crudely termed noise floor), in your example above, 55 dB say, but the louder you run the system that reverb level becomes much higher(-15dB of wherever your at ) so at a system level of say 95dB there can be 80dB of reverb mush, loud enough to intrude and mess things up..

[Andyoz]

But Cooky, it's the relative levels of direct vs. reverb that's the important thing. That should stay roughly the same irrespective of the SPL.

The ear/brain is really clever at quantifying the difference in levels but is a really average at interpreting the absolute SPL levels.

This is all getting quite nerdy for a pair of cool dudes like us :crying:

[cooky1257]

Yeah dude, wayyyyyyy too nerdy:cool:
I think there must be a threshold where reflected sound 'interferes' with the direct sound and that it is level dependent for certain reverb times-but I'm just guessing.

[scorpio]

Just checked yesterday with my RS soundmeter (dbC, fast), most usual listening level in my relatively small room is 75-85 db.

When I feel that I'm really going for it (not too common), I hit 95 with very short bursts that can make 100 dB, I don't think I'd ever go really higher.

Good point is, at close to 50 and after 35 yrs of regular listening, not tinnitis and still pretty good high freq sensitivity....

Cheers all,

[1audiohack]

I took a trip to So-Cal last weekend in my old truck with Carver powered JBL sound system, and the dB meter.

The freeway in cab noise level is right about 90dBC.

The average level with music, 96dBC slow.

Highest peak 106dBC slow.

What suprised me was I only needed +6dB over the noise floor.

Going back a little,

If you could isolate each source and actually measure it, the relative levels should still be the same at low and high SPL's (if that makes sense).

Andy, look at the TEF Polar ETC, very cool! The concept is brilliant, the execution needs automation.

[Zilch]

Start your time window at the first reflection, or some other point where you believe the direct sound to be "done," to measure the reflection/reverb levels relative to different absolute SPLs.... :yes:

[JBL 4645]

I took a trip to So-Cal last weekend in my old truck with Carver powered JBL sound system, and the dB meter.

The freeway in cab noise level is right about 90dBC.

The average level with music, 96dBC slow.

Highest peak 106dBC slow.

What suprised me was I only needed +6dB over the noise floor.

Going back a little,


So what is the SPL db level in A weighting VS the truck sound plus traffic sound?

[1audiohack]

I'm going to drive to Reno for the weekend, I'll let you know.
I want to RTA / NLA the road noise, I am interested in the spectrum, it just seems odd that +6dB of music does much at all on top of a 90dB noise floor.

[Andyoz]

I want to RTA / NLA the road noise, I am interested in the spectrum, it just seems odd that +6dB of music does much at all on top of a 90dB noise floor.

It's because of the C-Weighting.

If you repeat it using A-Weighting you should find that the music level is much higher than tha background

[1audiohack]

Right as usual Andyoz.

A weighted slow, road noise 78-80, with music 84-88 with 94 dB peaks.

This is all with the windows open as what is a road trip with out the wind in your hair?:)

[Rolf]

Why can't we agree in dBa, dBc, bDz DBp. This has no meaning to me.

[Andyoz]

This is all with the windows open as what is a road trip with out the wind in your hair?:)

Shut those windows, think of the fuel economy and the planet....:p

[johnaec]

OK - I just happened to have Steely Dan playing on the 4430's while skimming these threads, and the Radio Shack digital SPL meter was just sitting on the table, so a quick check showed they were playing as background music in the other room at ~83 dB (there) for a listening level of about 67 dB here in the computer room. Then, I put myself in the best listening position in front of the speakers and imagined I was listening at a concert or critical mixing session and found that I preferred right around 95 dB, (fast C weighted). I know my band is generally around 95-100 dB during rehearsals.

John

[JBL 4645]

Right as usual Andyoz.

A weighted slow, road noise 78-80, with music 84-88 with 94 dB peaks.

This is all with the windows open as what is a road trip with out the wind in your hair?:)

I wasn’t going to put words into your mouth that’s fairly accurate I'd say.

I measured the coach ride to London early this month at around the same value, I wrote down a figure on paper I did on small notepad, but I have several notepads and it looks like I need to fire my cleaning lady, because its mess around here.:D

The faster you drive the louder the sound pressure!

Also masking is your enemy on the road. You’ve got vibration that will in someway translate to sound pressure, the engine motor sound the air rushing around the vehicle and other vehicles as well all adding up to one miserable noise background level.

You might as well have cheap monaural sound system in the car or truck and wait until you get home where the noise background level will be considerably less.

You could ware headphones with ear defenders to block out as much noise background level as possible, but that would be illegal and you could end up getting nicked by the Smokey.:D

[robertbartsch]

My wife and I went to an Eagles concert at Madison Square Garden this summer.

It was the worst sound system I have heard in 30 years. ...a few columns of JBLs

I would say the maxium SPLs were around 85db.

In any event, the modern concerts of today do not seem to emphasize the sound systems like yester-year. Apparently, it is a matter of cost.