3 way active TAD speakers.

[enjoy_the_music]

So i'm going 3 way active on the TAD 2402 speakers...with an additional ET-703 tweeter (and maybe a PT-R9 ribbon too).

Currently they are 2 way with a Yamamoto A-02 on the high and a Berning ZH270 on the mid/ lows.

Pre - Leben RS-28CX
Crossover - Sony TA-D88

I currently use Kondo Spz for the mids/low and the original twisted L-ofc Pioneer cable for the highs.

Running 3 way active means more cable (and another amp/s). I intended to use the Kondo on the mids as that is the ultimate strong point. Is there a cable out there which is better for bass frequencies? sub 500/600hz?

I may try and experiment further with the Yamamoto on the mid/highs and the Berning on the lows. However I cannot remove the woofer from the cabinet....unscrewed all the allen bolts but am scared to damage the fascia by prising the woofer out! :( I tried reaching inside and pushing the woofer from behind...so to speak!...but nothing.

Cheerio

Richard
ps. Similar thread on zerogain...apologies if anyone saw that too.

[Mr. Widget]

Sounds like a great system. I'd be more interested in using a different crossover than being particularly worried about your speaker wires, but follow your path and let us know what you find.


Widget

[enjoy_the_music]

I find it to be a good crossover actually. Cheap and high quality...good enough to play around with for the moment.

esterday I rewired the Exclusives in preparation for 3 way active mode. However at the moment they are 2 way with the purest amplifier powering the mids and highs (instead of the Berning powering the low/mids and yamamoto powering the highs/harmonics) . Soon I will have another very pure tube amp so that the mids and highs are powered seperately.

Here are a few images. Firstly The woofer had to be removed...its quite a hefty beast. The internal crossovers were bypassed so the amplifiers fed directly the new frequencies to the drive units individually. This allows for a substantially cleaner and more dynamic performance.

The Berning amplifier is connected to the woofers. It operates via the crossover in the sub-800hz region. The previous crossover frequency was 650hz.

The Yamamoto A-02 now powers the TD-4001 and et-703. In order to protect the ET-703 from 800hz frequencies I used the ALM HP-105 10khz filter box. In essence therefore the ET-703 is merely adding to the TD4001 until i can go fully 3 way.

Some interesting thoughts:

The TAD TD-4001 driver requires almost zero power. I am using 45 tubes (2Watts) on the 4001's - require perhaps 0.5W to get them very loud indeed. The midrange is subsantially clearer and more articulate...very big difference.

However as the ET-703 drivers have slightly less efficiency (and are running off the same amp) the treble output is not what I would prefer. I tried to adjoin the Pioneer ribbon however this is less efficient and at the current attenuation level outputs little.

The bass is much more articulate. It is amazing how much better definition you get from going active...also how much distortion there is from using a single amplifier for all drivers.

Conclusion:

I'd say the potential is there now for a truly excellent 3 way system. A high quality tube amp will be sourced for the tweeters and maybe a set of digital monoblocks to try in place of the Berning.

Then perhaps I can set to work on replacing the Sony crossover with a more custom designed unit from the likes of Marchand. I've already spoken with them about this and the options are extensive. This might include a time delay in the bass region also.

Other changes will involve the addition of some very nice Emission labs 45 tubes...supposedly they have 30% less distortion that the older RCA tubes that I have here...difficult to imagine better clarity but its worth a try.

Lastly perhaps some new speaker cable to connect the tweeters. Considering silver litz.

[caladois]

and maybe a set of digital monoblocks to try in place of the Berning


What kind of digital monoblocks are you thinking to replace with ?
At this time, I am seriously thinking of purchasing amps like Ear or Murano. Do you already had experience with those units ?

[KCCT82]

I always wondered if the TAD stuff is considered "Lansing Related" so I usually shut up until someone starts the TAD talk ;)

Well, I just found this thread that matches exactly what I want to post and believe me, it's 100% on topic :p

Ladies and gentlemen, I present you my super ugly DIY system... TD-2002's on TH-2002 horns, TL-1101H's, and TL-1603's. It's the 1st time I've heard a system with 10" MB and I like it very much. I can't believe I've been wasting time crossing 15" woofers to 500hz big a$$ horns~ Well thinking again, all the big systems like JBL 434x and Westlake's use 10"-12" MB's so there must be something good about them...

[speakerdave]

Interesting system. I bet it sounds very good. What are your crossover frequencies, slopes, compensations, methods, etc?

David

[KCCT82]

It all started when I finished a pair of Mr. Widget's Westlake clones. I was using it in a 3 way system with BMS drivers, TAD ET-703's and 1603's. The sound wasn't as good as I had hoped and I thought crossing the 1603's at 800hz might have had something to do with it. The BMS's and ET-703's shouldn't have a problem crossing at 5k (Westlake crosses their horn at 4.5k). Since we had a bunch of 1101H's laying around, I wanted to see if using them inbetween would help (200hz-800hz).

[KCCT82]

What are your crossover frequencies, slopes, compensations, methods, etc?

Hi speakerdave, for the very top system (final config) I crossed at 200hz and 800hz. I used all 48db/octave slopes with a DCX. Most slopes were butterworth, but LR for the 1101H at 200hz because I needed that extra bump there (I dont know slopes very well, might have that butterworth/LR thing reversed, I rely on the RTA screen heavily :p). After that I used RTA to get an idea where I'd need parametric eq. It's only been a few days since my dad and I finished so we're still in the process of fine tuning. So far the 1603 is flat to 40hz without much EQ and 2002 is pretty darn smooth on its own. The biggest problem being the sealed MB, raising a lot from 200hz-630hz.

[KCCT82]

I decided to chop the old baffle and make a new one. The 1101H will fit nicely if I turn the box upside down and stick it between the ports.

[speakerdave]

. . . . The biggest problem being the sealed MB, raising a lot from 200hz-630hz.

Good to know. How much room did you give it?

[KCCT82]

Here you see the new baffle with a little box being glued to the back.

My dad had the brilliant idea of stacking a pair of brand new TL-1102's on top... the only thing in my mind was :wtf:

[speakerdave]

. . . . My dad had the brilliant idea of stacking a pair of brand new TL-1102's on top . . . .

That's your class deadweight all right!

[KCCT82]

Good to know. How much room did you give it?


the little box was about 10"x10"x10", with the driver in place I should have about .5 cu ft like WinISD suggested. This is my first time DIYing so I'm just trying to get an idea of things. Eventually i'll make nicer cabinets and use a 10" tube instead of small square box.

[KCCT82]

With all in place, the system looks like this

[Mr. Widget]

Eventually i'll make nicer cabinets and use a 10" tube instead of small square box.Good... a 10" cube will have standing waves where you don't want them. :)

FWIW: I run my 1102s in 1.4 cu ft cabinets (no two parallel sides) with ports tuned to ~45Hz.


Widget

PS: Nice looking horn. :applaud: You did a great job finishing it. :bouncy:

[KCCT82]

The 4 way system looked fun, but the BMS just wasn't up to par. I can't stand not having the high resolution of Be drivers so I brought out the 2002's. When the 4002's arrive I'll put the Westlake clones and ET-703's back on and see if that'll be even better :).

[Ian Mackenzie]

Interesting thread and it look like you are having fun.

The 1603 as advised by experienced home users is great below 500 hertz, but not nearly as good above. The 1601a on the other hand is good to 900 hertz. It depends on what you are asking the driver to do.

[KCCT82]

FWIW: I run my 1102s in 1.4 cu ft cabinets (no two parallel sides) with ports tuned to ~45Hz.


Thanks Mr. Widget, where are you crossing your 1102's to 1500AL's? I have always wondered about putting a driver in bass reflex cabs but not crossing it into the "port helping" zone too much. I'm guessing you can cross your 1102's at 100hz without much audible "port sound"? I think i'll try that route next time because my 1101's sealed is quite unefficient.


The 1603 as advised by experienced home users is great below 500 hertz, but not nearly as good above. The 1601a on the other hand is good to 900 hertz. It depends on what you are asking the driver to do.

Thanks Ian for the info, it's still hard to imagine a 16" woofer being great that high when you're asking it to go down to 30+ hz. However, my dad just visited a "hi-fi" room by Tom Hidley in Hong Kong ($150,000 USD for the acoustics alone). The owner used a pair of TAD 2404's (TAD 4003 + 1601c) and my dad said it's the best thing he has ever heard. I guess it's possible afterall... FWIW, he also said our system is about 80% of what he heard.



Originally Posted by KCCT82 http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=218261#post218261)
. . . . The biggest problem being the sealed MB, raising a lot from 200hz-630hz.
Good to know. How much room did you give it?


Speakerdave, for some reason it's NOT doing that anymore, I'm guessing the 1101's are broken in?

Keith

[Mr. Widget]

Thanks Mr. Widget, where are you crossing your 1102's to 1500AL's?I'm not. I'm crossing them over to Sub1500s. :D They are crossed over in the 50-60Hz range.



Speakerdave, for some reason it's NOT doing that anymore, I'm guessing the 1101's are broken in?I had a similar experience with them.


Widget