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View Full Version : Crown DC 300 Enters TECnology Hall Of Fame



BMWCCA
11-29-2007, 04:53 PM
I thought this announcement on Crown's web site appropriate to post here on Crown's 60th Anniversary. Thanks Gerald! http://www.harman.com/images/logos/CrownInternational.gif

http://www.crownaudio.com/gen_htm/press/pr157.htm


NEW YORK CITY - November 2007 -- As a fitting cap to Crown International's 60th anniversary year, the DC 300 amplifier, first introduced 40 years prior in 1967, was inducted into the TECnology Hall Of Fame on the opening day of the 123rd AES Convention in New York City. Gerald Stanley, Crown International's senior VP of R&D and the original designer of the DC 300, was on hand to accept the award.
Presented by the Mix Foundation for Excellence in Audio, best known for its production of the TEC Awards, and hosted by the AES, the Fourth Annual TECnology Hall Of Fame ceremony was emceed by George Petersen, executive editor of Mix magazine and director of the TECnology Hall Of Fame.
Petersen prefaced Crown's award by remarking, "[The DC 300] was a classic that really ushered in and defined the era of the modern power amplifier. And 1967 was a perfect time for this product to come out. Suddenly there were rock concerts that were high SPL--very loud--and needed great amplification. Live sound systems were coming into vogue. Listening levels in recording studios in 1967 started going through the roof and somebody needed to produce an amplifier that was loud enough to take care of this. And even 40 years after its introduction, there are so many of these DC 300s still in service, it's an amazing testament to Crown reliability." (more...)

SMKSoundPro
12-05-2007, 02:43 PM
Love my Crowns!

Krunchy
01-07-2008, 07:55 AM
Funky!

http://mixonline.com/online_extras/1967-crown-DC300.web.jpg

Fred Sanford
01-07-2008, 11:25 AM
There's one lying dormant here, just waiting to find its Special Purpose. It's a little newer than Krunchy's pic, but not a whole lot. It got nudged aside by a Urei 6260.

je

stephane RAME
01-07-2008, 11:30 AM
The family :D

scorpio
01-07-2008, 01:22 PM
The family :D

Bonjour Stéphane,
I remember seeing your system in the NRDS, at the time you were using a passive network. Seems like you have moved to active filtering, is this the case? If so, I'd be interested to know how you are rating the noise (or silence!) from your amps in this configuration. I'm hunting for an amp that would be quieter than what I use today (a simple small Trends TA-10) fro my mid-high, I see so many of you with amcron that I am tempted, only I am wondering if they would be quieter or not.

I'm sitting about 3m away and when no musinc is playing can hear the faint hiss from the amp, it's not worrying much as it's not a buzzing sound, more like tape hiss, so not intruding, still I'd be interested in something 'quieter'.

Merci pour l'information,

Scorpio - en fait Stéphane également,
Bonsoir!

stephane RAME
01-07-2008, 03:10 PM
Good evening, the photo of these amps, when I had the time or a pair of JBL4430 in bi-amp and a tweeter JBL2405.
Stéphane

Bonsoir , la photo de ces amplis , date de l'époque ou j'avais une paire de JBL4430 en bi-amplification et un tweeter JBL2405.
Stéphane

Doc Mark
05-08-2008, 01:38 PM
Greetings, All,

I have an old Crown DC-300, and it still works very well. However, it does produce a hum, which I would love to have removed. I also have a Crown VFX-2A electronic crossover, which also could use a "tune up". Can anyone recommend someone on the Left Coast that goes through older amps and components like my Crowns, and get them back to original spec? Many thanks for any comments, suggestions, or advice! Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

JohnK
05-08-2008, 11:20 PM
In it's day the DC300 reigned supreme! In those days Crown was building
elaborate shiney metallic looking reel to reel tape recorders too. I had the catalogs but never actually saw one anywhere.

Doc Mark
05-09-2008, 05:28 AM
In it's day the DC300 reigned supreme! In those days Crown was building
elaborate shiney metallic looking reel to reel tape recorders too. I had the catalogs but never actually saw one anywhere.

Morning, John,

Thanks for the note. Yes, I remember those days well! If a band back then had Crown amps, they were in the "big time", and other musicians looked in awe at those large Crown amps, and could hardly wait for the day when they, too, could afford to own some!! I still like my old DC-300, and am now considering getting a few more of them. I don't think I really need the mega-watt monsters that others need in their home theatre systems, and a couple of good, solid, quiet Crown amps should do me nicely! For quite a few years, I used a couple of 4.5 cubic foot boxes, with some cast frame, Eminence 15" woofers, and my JBL 2420's, with the proper JBL horn lense assemblies, for my home stereo. Yes, it could have used a bit more top end, and the bass rolled off under 45HZ. But, I'll tell you, it was a very musical sounding, sweet system, and I could blow the glass out of any apartment I live in, with only a few watts from that old Crown DC-300!!! It idled, most of the time, and did very well, indeed. So, I think with at least one more of the, plus my two Harman Kardon, high current capable amps that I use now, I should be in Fat City!! So, I have my feelers out for a good Crown DC-300A, or maybe a pair of them. Looks like you can get good ones for WAY under $500, and that's good, too! Thanks, again, for your note, and I'll post an update as my plans come to fruition. Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

BMWCCA
05-09-2008, 05:57 AM
I have an old Crown DC-300, and it still works very well. However, it does produce a hum, which I would love to have removed. I also have a Crown VFX-2A electronic crossover, which also could use a "tune up". Can anyone recommend someone on the Left Coast that goes through older amps and components like my Crowns, and get them back to original spec? Doc,
You might want to consider spending a bit extra in shipping and send the Crown home . . . to Elkhart, Indiana! Crown no longer works on the legacy amps at the factory, but http://aetechron.com is their "official factory service point" for the old stuff and is staffed with experienced Crown people.

Doc Mark
05-09-2008, 09:39 AM
Doc,
You might want to consider spending a bit extra in shipping and send the Crown home . . . to Elkhart, Indiana! Crown no longer works on the legacy amps at the factory, but http://aetechron.com is their "official factory service point" for the old stuff and is staffed with experienced Crown people.

Hey, BMWCCA,

Many thanks for that outstanding suggestion, and for the info on getting in touch with those folks! Sounds like just the proper course of action. I'll let you know how it all works out, when I've contacted them, and have an idea what to do next. Thanks, again!! Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

Doc Mark
05-12-2008, 03:14 PM
Greetings, Friends,

Well, I decided to stick my toe into the deep waters of buying a Crown DC-300A on FleaBay! Did the deed today, and at $349, may have paid a little more than I have seen others going for. But, the one I decided upon looks much nicer than most of the others, and the seller had very high positive feedback, so I went ahead and took the plunge!! The "new" Crown should arrive in just a few days, and that will be fun! I'm hoping to use it for whichever subwoofer system I end up building first: 1 - a pair of 2235H's, in 4.5 cubic foot boxes, tuned properly, electronically crossed over at 90HZ; or, 2 - a single 2242HPL, in an 8 cubic foot enclosure, tuned properly, and crossed over in the same manner, and at the same frequency. If I use the 18" JBL, I'll run the "new" Crown in it's bridged mode, and that should be MORE than enough power for the listening I usually do!! I know that, whichever system ends up being built first, either one of them will SMOKE my current subwoofer "system", which ain't much, in truth!! Great for low level listening, but horrible if you ask too much SPL from it!! :blink::barf::biting::(

I'm thinking about going for one more nice Crown, if one pops up, and then go from there. I'm also thinking about adding a second Crown VFX-2A crossover to the one I already have, and then maybe doing a three-way system, added to the Audio Control electronic crossover that my sub uses. Hummm.......!!??!! I also still have my old, original Crown DC300, and have contacted AETECHRON about going through it and cleaning it up a bit. Sounds like they are good folks over there!

Thanks for all the great info on this site, Friends! It's a pleasure to dig around for the myriad gems to be found here!! Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

Doc Mark
05-13-2008, 05:24 PM
Hey, Guys,

My "new" old Crown DC-300A arrived today, safe and sound! The seller shipped it, from Las Vegas just yesterday, so that is about as good as it gets in quick shipping!

The bad news is that this amp is dinged up a bit more than I'd hoped, and the cap on the power supply coil is dented in a good bit. Oh, well.... The good news is that it does, indeed, work, and I'm running my two "subwoofers" with it, right now! Seems to be pretty balanced, one channel to the other, and it sounds very smooth, and almost "sweet". But one interesting thing has popped up: My old Harman Kardon HK870, 100WPC power amp, is actually LOUDER than the Crown, which is has more RMS power!! How about THEM apples????!!!! The HK amp is "high current capable", which means it can put out far more than it's rated power, for those brief transients that needs more juice. I don't know what it's power ceiling is. But, the Crown, if I remember correctly, puts out about 178 watts per channel, before it gets into clipping trouble. No clipping from either amp, but the HK is definitely a little bit louder than the DC-300A, which I find very interesting! I'm going to test it further, in a few days, with some Pro Sound Reinforcement gear, and see how loud the Crown actually can play. Right now, it's doing well, and isn't even warm yet, even though it's been playing for a bit, now.

Any thoughts about this interesting anomaly? Also, I have never used such an amp in it's bridged/mono mode, and I have no paperwork with this "new" Crown. Any suggestions would be appreciated! Thanks, very much, Gentlemen, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

Fred Sanford
05-13-2008, 05:31 PM
Lots of "paperwork" for that amp here:

http://www.crownaudio.com/gen_htm/legacy/legacamp.htm

Good luck,

je

johnaec
05-13-2008, 06:27 PM
My old Harman Kardon HK870, 100WPC power amp, is actually LOUDER than the Crown, which is has more RMS power!!How do you mean "louder"? Did you run them both up to clipping? Volume controls mean nothing...

John

BMWCCA
05-13-2008, 06:50 PM
Volume controls mean nothing...

:applaud:

Doc Mark
05-13-2008, 07:33 PM
Evening, Fred, John, and BMWCC,

Thanks for the shouts, Gents!

Fred, I've printed out the proper manual, and it's great to have the info you sent along! That was a fine link, and very important, too. Much appreciated!

John, and BMWCC, you are both right, of course, and "louder" is certainly subjective. The HK amp has no volume controls, and the Crown was run with both controls fully to the right, clockwise, for maximum volume. Using the same exact music source, which has some good, solid bass, both my wife and I noted that the Crown was not as "loud" as the HK amp. The HK 870 caused the subs to rattle the windows much more than did the Crown, and it was just "louder", if that makes sense. Not to say that I didn't like the sound of the Crown, as it seems like it will work very well, indeed. But, I was puzzled that an amp that is rated at only 100 watts, RMS, would "sound louder", and cause more window rattling, than an amp that's rated at 55 watts per channel more power. ????? Still puzzles me, truthfully. All settings were left exactly the same when testing each amp, with no changes made at all, other than switching the preamp signal, and speaker cables between the amps. Any thoughts?

I remember, back when I bought my very first "quality" stereo, it was from a shyster place down in San Diego, called, Dow Stereo. They sold me a "quad" system that was supposed to be 100 watts per channel. Turned out to be only 15 watts x 4 and never sounded good to me. The speakers were supposed to be a three-way system, with 12" woofers, 5" mids, and 3" tweeters. The tweeters were DOA and never worked, at all. The other components were absolute crap, and the entire system was actually put together in an employee's garage, using the worst transducers you could imagine, and then sold for solid bucks to stupid morons like myself, that thought "louder" meant "better"!!! :(:(:blink::blink::barf::barf: I learned a valuable lesson after having bought that system, and ended up replacing all the drivers with MI JBL transducers. NO, the result was not a really good system, but at least all the drivers worked, and the resulting sound was head and shoulders above what I'd endured with the original system. Sorry, I took a left turn there........ Anyway, I just wanted to show that I am familar with most folks picking a "loud" system over a quality system that is not as loud. In this test, I think that the "loud" judgement was as honest as I could make it, for what it's worth. Thanks, again, Lads, and I'll talk to you later. God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

BMWCCA
05-13-2008, 08:03 PM
The HK amp has no volume controls, and the Crown was run with both controls fully to the right, clockwise, for maximum volume. Using the same exact music source, which has some good, solid bass, both my wife and I noted that the Crown was not as "loud" as the HK amp. Crowns don't have "volume controls" either. The knobs are the input attenuators. The idea is to set them so that your normal listening level takes advantage of the correct level from your pre-amp based on your amp's input sensitivity. I usually set mine so that wherever I listen the pre-amp volume pot is set at mid-way or slightly higher. If I could measure output voltage I could match it to the amp's input sensitivity but this is a best-guess scenario that has even gained approval from the Crown factory guys on their forum. So if your HK is designed to work with less pre-amp voltage then it might be louder at the same pre-amp volume setting, no denying that. Both amps will reach their maximum output if the gain is high enough, and the more powerful one should actually be "louder" at full-output than a smaller one. I'm no engineer but that makes sense to me. I never run any of my (eight) Crowns with the input attenuators at full-right because even at 3/4 pre-amp volume the animals would complain and I'd soon be deaf.

johnaec
05-14-2008, 11:32 AM
The HK amp has no volume controls, and the Crown was run with both controls fully to the right, clockwise, for maximum volume. Using the same exact music source, which has some good, solid bass, both my wife and I noted that the Crown was not as "loud" as the HK amp.All this means is that the HK amp has a higher sensitivity. Many "consumer" amps are rated for -10dBV on the inputs, while "pro" amps are usually rated for +4dBV. This means that most pro amps require a much stronger input signal to reach rated output.

The only meaningful way to compare your two amps is to run a test into clipping, (prefereably, using test equipment ;) ). The generalizations you're making between the two amps have no basis in objectivity - they're just subjective observations that really tell nothing about the actual capabilities of the two amps.

John

Doc Mark
05-14-2008, 03:28 PM
All this means is that the HK amp has a higher sensitivity. Many "consumer" amps are rated for -10dBV on the inputs, while "pro" amps are usually rated for +4dBV. This means that most pro amps require a much stronger input signal to reach rated output.

The only meaningful way to compare your two amps is to run a test into clipping, (prefereably, using test equipment ;) ). The generalizations you're making between the two amps have no basis in objectivity - they're just subjective observations that really tell nothing about the actual capabilities of the two amps.

John

Hey, John, and all,

Thanks, very much, for all the great info, Guys! Obviously, I'm not a tech, nor an engineer. I'm just a JBL lover who formerly made his living, for almost 30 years, as a musician, and who has used Pro Sound JBL stuff for many years. I only know enough to be dangerous, and certainly would never pass myself off as an "expert" on much of anything! :D

Here are a few specs from my old Harman Kardon HK870:

100 watts per channel into 8 ohms, @ <.06% THD.
240 watts per channel into 4 ohms.
340 watts per channel into 2 ohms.
Negative feedback (overall) 12db.
High current capacity: 60 amps.
Power bandwidth, at half-rated output, 8 ohms: 10HZ-80KHZ.
Frequency response, at 1 watt, +0.1HZ-180KHZ
Slew rate: 160 volts/ mSec.
Square wave rise time: 1.8mV.
Signal-to-noise ratio IHF-A Wtd, ref 1 watt output (new IHF): 998db.
Input sensitivity/Inpedance Phone (MC): 1.0V/22kohms
Damping factor: 120

That's all I know about this old HK amp, and in truth, I don't know what half of those specs actually mean. I just know that I've always like the sound of HK amps, and that I've never had a moments problem with mine. May be those specs will help you be able to compare the HK amp with my Crown amps. If you have any thoughts and don't mine educating an old Fart who knows next to nothing about all this stuff, I'd love to hear what you have to say! Thanks, again, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

Doc Mark
05-14-2008, 03:34 PM
Hey, Guys,

I've been thinking about adding more to my system, once I get the time to build my new subwoofer cabinets. So far, I've been using an Audio Control electronic crossover, set at 90HZ, between my subwoofer amp, and my satellite amp. I'm wondering if I should jump into deeper waters and tri-amp my system, or even go with 4 amps, and electronically crossover the whole kit and kaboodle! What do you think? What are the advantages of using 3 or 4 amps, instead of just bi-amping? Any negatives to consider, besides cost and compexity?

I have my old Crown VFX2A electronic crossover, and can add another one, and so tri-amp the satellite speakers, if there is something to be gained by doing so. I believe that I will actually use both of my Crown amps monaurally, so that each channel of the subwoofer will have it's own amp, and I believe that my Audio Control crossover can handle that. But, would I be doing something good by adding another VFX2A crossover, and using the pair of them in a tri-amp mode, for the satellites? Any help, suggestions, or comments, would be much appreciated! Thanks, very much, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

BMWCCA
05-14-2008, 04:09 PM
Not that I know what it means, either, but the input impedance and sensitivity specs for the Crown DC300A-II, for comparison, are:
Input Impedance: Nominally 25 K ohm.
Input Sensitivity: 1.75 volts ±2% for 310 watts into 16 ohms.
I don't know which model you have but these are the specs for mine. To my uneducated mind, it looks like the Crown needs 75% more input voltage to reach rated output than does the HK. I'm sure someone will correct me.

I have two VFX-2As with the intent of doing what you suggest, someday, with which speakers I'm not sure. Sort of overkill with the 030s but I figure since I'm half-way to adding two LE175DLHs, the VFX-2As would avoid my having to buy three vintage JBL crossovers for a whole bunch of money. I'll probably need quadruple bypass surgery before I get a tri-amped JBL system in my living room!

robertbartsch
07-15-2008, 07:51 AM
I've been considering a Crown power amp but the new units have a rating of .5% THD and my current integrated amp as a .05% THD.

Basically, the Crown is a dirty amp; right?

BMWCCA
07-15-2008, 10:03 AM
I've been considering a Crown power amp but the new units have a rating of .5% THD and my current integrated amp as a .05% THD.

Basically, the Crown is a dirty amp; right?

I don't know which Crown you're referring to but remember Crowns are made for pro-audio installations. They no longer market to home hobbyists. That doesn't mean they won't work for you, just that the specs are quoted for what pro sound reinforcement expects for comparison. And many of the newer Crowns are built for cheap power for disco setups so they don't need to be too clean, just loud, and many of those use cooling fans which you probably won't want in your living room. Even the Macro-Techs and I-Techs use 0.35% for their 8,000W THD ratings. Looks like the XLS use 0.5% in their stats. But these are all extremely high-power amps not designed for home use.

That being said, for my favorite old PS-400 Crown quotes <0.001% THD from 20Hz to 400Hz and "increasing linearly to 0.05% at 20kHz at 165 W." Keep in mind the apples-and-oranges method of power and distortion rating. IMD is rated at <0.05% from .25W to 165W. The current D-series amps still use this method of quoting THD at the same 0.05%.

jbl4ever
08-02-2008, 06:09 PM
http://dmbshare.org/pictures/20080424/1.jpg

BMWCCA
08-02-2008, 08:26 PM
Even a couple of D130s (or something close) and maybe some 075s in the picture for the JBL fans. That's a bunch of PSA-2s, for sure! Most likely the D-series and PS-series are still working though! ;)

midlife
05-25-2009, 03:08 PM
Funky!

http://mixonline.com/online_extras/1967-crown-DC300.web.jpg One of these early run DC300s just sold on eeebay for $400. It was 99% pristine, and appeared as new. Love the bold styling!!! :applaud: !!!

BMWCCA
09-16-2009, 04:25 PM
This stuff fascinates me! What was someone doing with this in a box all these years? Lost inventory? Purchased on a whim and stashed away, forgotten? OCD collector, like the rest of us? :D

Anyway, here it is, and I have no idea what it's worth. No matter; it's cool!
http://ebayitem.com/370230132403
Oh yeah, the buy-it-now price is $989.
IMPORTANT NOTE: I HAVE RECENTLY OPENED UP A SEALED WAREHOUSE THAT IS STUFFED WITH OVER 20,000! PIECES OF BRAND NEW, AMERICAN MADE PROFESSIONAL TECHNICAL EQUIPMENT, ALL IN ORIGINAL FACTORY PACKAGING, A VERY RARE, INCREDIBLE FIND, A TIME CAPSULE OF TECHNOLOGY FOR THE LAST 30 YEARS!

THIS AMAZING COLLECTION OF THE FINEST QUALITY NEW ITEMS INCLUDES ALL TYPES OF: ELECTRONIC TEST AND MEASUREMENT EQUIPMENT , BROADCAST VIDEO / AUDIO EQUIPMENT, INDUSTRIAL / COMMERCIAL EQUIPMENT / PARTS, POWER AND HAND TOOLS, ETC!

YOUR PURCHASE IS FOR A VERY RARE FIND! BRAND NEW (FROM THE 1980'S), GUARANTEED NOT DOA, CROWN BRAND, MODEL DC-300A, STEREO AUDIO POWER AMPLIFIER COMPLETE WITH ALL ACCESSORIES AND OWNERS MANUAL, ALL IN ORIGINAL FACTORY PACKAGING (SEE ALL OF THE PHOTOS FOR DETAILS).

IMPORTANT NOTE #2: TO PREVENT LEAVING FINGERPRINTS OR OTHER CONTAMINATES ON THE PRISTINE ORIGINAL FINISHES, WE ALWAYS WEAR PROTECTIVE GLOVES WHEN HANDLING THESE NEW PRODUCTS!

IMPORTANT NOTE #3: THIS NEW POWER AMPLIFIER WAS SLOWLY POWERED-UP WITH A VARIAC (AS SHOWN IN THE PHOTO) TO PROTECT THE CIRCUITRY AND THE ELECTROLYTIC CAPACITORS PRIOR TO TESTING OF THE UNIT!

THE CROWN DC-300A STEREO AUDIO POWER AMP IS CONSIDERED TO BE ONE OF THE FINEST EVER MADE!

SEAWOLF97
09-22-2009, 02:13 PM
I thought this announcement on Crown's web site appropriate to post here on Crown's 60th Anniversary. Thanks Gerald! http://www.harman.com/images/logos/CrownInternational.gif

http://www.crownaudio.com/gen_htm/press/pr157.htm



http://www.mixfoundation.org/hof/techof.html#crown

The original service manual for the DC 300 is entitled "300 Watts and a Cloud of Smoke"


the Crown has great company in the TECnology Hall of Fame :D

http://mixonline.com/TECnology-Hall-of-Fame/1977_yamaha_ns10M_speakers/

1977 Yamaha NS-10M Speakers

From Yamaha’s consumer hi-fi group, 1977’s most inauspicious audio debut was surely the NS-10M. At the time, no one in pro audio used them, and they didn’t rise to prominence for another five years, when they began replacing Auratones as the most common studio reference speaker. Claiming that it smoothed the monitors’ high frequency response, engineers began hanging tissues over the tweeters, and NS-10Ms so adorned were a common sight during the 1980s

I have read more than once that the Yammys were used mainly because they represented "everymans speaker" - like a lowest common denominator deal- not because they were significantly good.

BMWCCA
09-22-2009, 03:24 PM
They did have a sense of humor. Recently I was checking out the IC-150A owner's manual to help answer Midlife's questions about auxiliary input and found this gem:


Quickie Tour of the Front Panel Display

AUX 1 and AUX 2: any device which can be connected to the AUX inputs, ie. guitar amp, additional tuner, additional tape recorder, electric razor, etc. and then they have an entire section detailing examples of Murphy's Law to which they say they do not adhere "hardly ever", such as:
11.7 A fail-safe circuit will destroy others.
11.8 A transistor protected by a fast-acting fuse will protect the fuse by blowing first.

Bob Womack
09-22-2009, 03:34 PM
When my company built a new facility toward the end of the '70s, they bought about twenty-two DC300As, along with a pile of DC75s. They served admirably in PAs and other applications through about the year 2000, many running around the clock. I remember throwing PA systems together by rounding up as many 300As as necessary and throwing them in the back of a truck, racked or not. Got an amplification need? Throw a DC300A on it. We rarely had problems (save when a cap can got knocked of or something similar and they were incredibly easy to service. After about sixteen years we began having intermittent problems that couldn't easily be rectified, and began replacing the unstable ones with new QSCs one at a time. By that method, we developed a small stash of "hangar queens" that we scavenged for parts, keeping the others alive. When the active lot became unstable enough that our excellent engineers felt "it was time," they were herded together, de-assetted, and crushed. I wasn't there that day or I would have grabbed a couple out of the jaws of death. The DC-75s lasted longer, but the last went the the crusher a couple of months ago.

Bob

Bob Womack
09-22-2009, 03:48 PM
1977 Yamaha NS-10M Speakers

From Yamaha’s consumer hi-fi group, 1977’s most inauspicious audio debut was surely the NS-10M. At the time, no one in pro audio used them, and they didn’t rise to prominence for another five years, when they began replacing Auratones as the most common studio reference speaker. Claiming that it smoothed the monitors’ high frequency response, engineers began hanging tissues over the tweeters, and NS-10Ms so adorned were a common sight during the 1980s

I have read more than once that the Yammys were used mainly because they represented "everymans speaker" - like a lowest common denominator deal- not because they were significantly good.Many engineers and producers liked them because they felt a product mixed on them translated well to most end-reproduction systems. I took issue with them on two points:
1. I never heard a pair, tissue or no, that wouldn't give me "icepick ears" after a couple of hours.
2. Engineers began forsaking the large monitors entirely and both recording and mixing on them. It became clear that people who worked solely on NS10Ms had NO idea what was going on in the bass because of their limited lower bandwidth. The results were recording with problems below 100hz of either bass buildup or complete absence of bass below there. Those problems often couldn't be resolved when presented at either mastering houses or on film or video mixing stages. I dealt with far to much ugly product that had been both recorded and mixed on them that WASN'T good to be enthused. :)

Bob

Bob Womack
09-22-2009, 05:04 PM
Bob -
wow, someone else who uses that term....takes me back to a WESPAC cruise...we had 2 RA-5C "Vigllante's"....only one ever flew for us, the other was a parts storehouse, when bird1 needed an unobtainable part, bird2 was the perfect donor.

Ahhh, the good 'ole Canoe Club........:bouncy:My familiarity with the term comes from my years in an Air Force auxiliary and years of studying historical aircraft. The interest came through the blood - my uncle was a Spitfire pilot in WWII. Which was the Navy bird that had its alpha-numerics converted to the nickname "All ____ Dead" because it was one of the last of the Navy jet aircraft without ejection seats? Was it the A-5D?

Thanks for your service.

Bob

Akira
09-23-2009, 08:48 AM
2. Engineers began forsaking the large monitors entirely and both recording and mixing on them.
While NS10's became a staple for mixdown, I don't know anyone who used them for bed tracks off the floor...at least in my part of the world.
In this respect the big guys reigned supreme. If you've ever tried to sculpt and shape a kick drum, especially in the glory days of rock, you needed something that could take punishment and reveal the smallest detail. Sculpting involves shaping and 'cone filtering' a frequency range well out of it's normal response. So much so that the selected range reeks havoc on driver excursion--especially on a high velocity low frequency dominated instrument such as a kick. I used to find that when working with even 4311's they couldn't take the beating. A kick would send a wind storm to my face from the port. I burned out two of them just on guitars. When your working off the floor you can use up a lot of SPL that is not necessary on a down mix because you are often wildly manipulating an input source that is so raw an untamed.

Speaking from personal experience, if you mix on large format monitors it sounds fabulous but, often is totally out of perspective when played back on small speakers. If you mixdown on small monitors it often sounds so much better when you blow up the sound on the big guys--the wow factor kicks in.

BMWCCA
09-23-2009, 09:12 AM
Speaking from personal experience, if you mix on large format monitors it sounds fabulous but, often is totally out of perspective when played back on small speakers. If you mixdown on small monitors it often sounds so much better when you blow up the sound on the big guys--the wow factor kicks in.Are you offering another explanation of "fake but fun"?

Akira
09-23-2009, 09:18 AM
Are you offering another explanation of "fake but fun"?
Obviously if you can hear a product that sounds great on the small monitors it was created on and even better on monsters, THEN it is very much possible to do the reverse--engineer a fabulous mix on a behemoth that still sounds great on a small guy.

But it's just easier to do the other way around...kind of like mixing on headphones--sounds good to me at the time, but when I play it back the next day on proper monitors I think ??? wtf%*$#!!:blink:

There is no fakery on large format monitors but, you certainly can get carried away and it is much easier to fool yourself. I've done mixes where the drums were so loud it impaled you against the back control room wall--you couldn't even look at it. The band thought I was a genius. But, the next day when I played it back on little speakers there were no guts to the sound. That's when you secretly fix it up without the client's knowledge on your own time.

btw: Isn't that why we like these big speakers...I've noticed your no slouch when it comes to size. Dynamic realism--JBL at it's best!

BMWCCA
09-23-2009, 09:57 AM
btw: Isn't that why we like these big speakers...I've noticed your no slouch when it comes to size.Of course, but then I have to suffer through the "engineering" on CDs that were mastered on headphones, small speakers, or in the Mercedes. It makes no sense. Flat should still be flat. Engineering around a response curve, whether it's the monitors', the engineer's ears, or the intended listener's clock radio or ear-buds is a crock. Let the little boxes have a pre-set or selectable compensation. IPods do. So does my laptop. ITunes calls it "small speakers".

Not that any of this is germane to the thread! ;)

SEAWOLF97
09-23-2009, 10:11 AM
Are you offering another explanation of "fake but fun"?

even the 4311 and XLR connectors made the list

http://www.mixfoundation.org/hof/04techof.html#18

Fred Sanford
09-23-2009, 10:50 AM
Of course, but then I have to suffer through the "engineering" on CDs that were mastered on headphones, small speakers, or in the Mercedes. It makes no sense. Flat should still be flat. Engineering around a response curve, whether it's the monitors', the engineer's ears, or the intended listener's clock radio or ear-buds is a crock. Let the little boxes have a pre-set or selectable compensation. IPods do. So does my laptop. ITunes calls it "small speakers".

Not that any of this is germane to the thread! ;)

I'll lend you a song recorded on a multi-track with a built-in mixer, and you can do multiple mixes using each of your home systems that you're intimately familiar with as monitors. Once you hear how different each of your mixes turns out to be, you'll see (hear) some of the things you're missing with the statements above. You could probably even do multiple mixes on the SAME gear, and they'd come out differently depending on allergies, humidity, whatever.

It ain't just about "flat" frequency response, it's also about dynamics & stereo information & other more elusive aspects. "Flat" is also subject to the volume you're listening/mixing at. It's all about compromise, and the engineer's experience with the gear & volume level they're using as reference. You learn to mix on something (NS-10s, or whatever), and you take note of how changes to what you hear in your reference system translates to how things sound on other systems (big rigs, subs + sats, boom boxes, IPod docks, car stereos). NS-10s just somehow became a standard, so you could walk into an unfamiliar studio & have a known quantity.

I had NS10s & hated them, but I had their cheaper cousin (S8Ms) for years & did pretty well with them. Fatigue was a big issue for me, I couldn't use the NS10s for any long sessions. I've also mixed on sats with a sub, that took some getting used to but I worked it out. The 10" 3-way L110s seem to be the best compromise for me in the end, but I still use a sub sometimes 'cause I know have a tendency to mix bass-heavy without one. I'm liking the freebie RNDigital Inspector, too, for a visual clue while within ProTools.

http://www.rndigitallabs.com/Plug-ins/Inspector/inspector.html

I still use headphones to edit, but not to mix. I do double-check mixes for FX levels & stereo image with 'phones, though.

je

BMWCCA
09-23-2009, 11:11 AM
I understand the value of experience and repeatable results. But the statement I was responding to was that a mix created to sound good on small speakers would sound "better" on larger speakers, assuming that "wow" factor is what one would consider "better". Lots of music these days I have to roll off the bottom on my big speakers (or, worse, not play the material at home) but they sound fine in the car! Nearly every John Mayer studio release has that "problem" for me.

We all know there are recordings that don't have this character and many of us refer to those as our favorites! :D

Bob Womack
09-23-2009, 04:21 PM
While NS10's became a staple for mixdown, I don't know anyone who used them for bed tracks off the floor...at least in my part of the world. Lots o' scoring composers with home studios selected them as their only monitor. Ouch. The usual result was a highly compressed low end with nothing below about 100hz, but occasionally you'd get a lower end with tons of flabby bass guitar, a great kick "click," but no bottom on the kick at all. Thot's a mastering nightmare.

Bob

DJ Jomix
09-24-2009, 09:32 AM
Moi j'adore le DC-300A il est super tennace,ses un des meilleur amplis vintage que j,ai eux la chance d'écouté! sa pioche très dure ses SEC et puissant,le seul regret aucune protection intégré à l'amplis,ses dommage car ses un superbe amplis.!

@+

stephane RAME
09-24-2009, 09:41 AM
DJ Jomix :
" I love the DC-300A is super tough, one of the best vintage amps I have them the chance to listen! Its very hard pick, the dry and powerful, the only regret no protection built into the amp, such a shame because its a great amp. "

Stéphane

MikeBrewster77
09-24-2009, 09:48 AM
Lots of music these days I have to roll off the bottom on my big speakers (or, worse, not play the material at home) but they sound fine in the car!


Just ran into this problem with the new Whitney Houston album (which, is surprisingly good) but very bass heavy. I have the township noise violation ticket to prove it :(

Bob Womack
09-24-2009, 11:46 AM
Just ran into this problem with the new Whitney Houston album (which, is surprisingly good) but very bass heavy. I have the township noise violation ticket to prove it :(When their marriage went sour, did she end up with the home and home studio? It was quite a little studio...

Bob

MikeBrewster77
09-24-2009, 01:02 PM
I think I remember seeing that she sold it almost immediately after the divorce.

SEAWOLF97
09-24-2009, 01:15 PM
Just ran into this problem with the new Whitney Houston album (which, is surprisingly good) but very bass heavy. I have the township noise violation ticket to prove it :(

noise violation ??

playing too loud OR the CD is noise to the township law enforcement ?

MikeBrewster77
09-24-2009, 02:54 PM
noise violation ??

playing too loud OR the CD is noise to the township law enforcement ?

Quite possibly a combination of both since I do live in a rather rural area. Based on the "talking to" I was given, however, it was sound level.

Akira
09-27-2009, 09:14 PM
It makes no sense. Flat should still be flat. Engineering around a response curve, whether it's the monitors', the engineer's ears, or the intended listener's clock radio or ear-buds is a crock. ;)
It has nothing to do with flat response curve. That is why I said there is no fakery with large format monitors. IT HAS EVERYTHING TO DO WITH, dynamics, sound stage, SPL level, velocity, source material, distance from the monitors, effect of acoustics, room anomalies, second reflections, ear fatigue, humidity, the list goes on...these are the things that can get out of control when mixing with large format monitors. THIS IS ALSO THE WOW FACTOR THAT OFTEN MAKES BIG SPEAKERS SOUND LARGER THAN LIFE. For example, that low end hump in your control room that can make a kick impale you against the wall, ain't even triggered with a wimpy little box. All of these things are easier to control with small speakers. In the simplest of terms, if the speaker is right in front of your face, you are not going to hear the bounce of the adjacent wall...but of course it goes way further than that.


I'll lend you a song recorded on a multi-track with a built-in mixer, and you can do multiple mixes using each of your home systems that you're intimately familiar with as monitors. Once you hear how different each of your mixes turns out to be, you'll see (hear) some of the things you're missing with the statements above. You could probably even do multiple mixes on the SAME gear, and they'd come out differently depending on allergies, humidity, whatever.

It ain't just about "flat" frequency response, it's also about dynamics & stereo information & other more elusive aspects. It's all about compromise, and the engineer's experience with the gear & volume level they're using as reference. You learn to mix on something (NS-10s, or whatever), and you take note of how changes to what you hear in your reference system translates to how things sound on other systems (big rigs, subs + sats, boom boxes, IPod docks, car stereos). NS-10s just somehow became a standard, so you could walk into an unfamiliar studio & have a known quantity.

WELL SAID, and that is the second half of the equation. If engineering was as simple as the art of critical listening, then we would all be doing it. It is only after years of making all of these mistakes that one learns how to tame the intangibles into a consistent product. NS 10's became a tool that aided in this process-- a fluke of timing really. If all you are doing is listening and offering a critique, then there is no need to consider all of the intangibles that goes into a mix.

BMWCCA
09-27-2009, 09:21 PM
In the simplest of terms, if the speaker is right in front of your face, you are not going to hear the bounce of the adjacent wall...but of course it goes way further than that.I suppose we should all dump our big speakers and get little ones and put them right in front of our face so we can hear what the engineer intended! ;)

But if we do that we'd miss the "wow factor". So if we engineer on small speakers the incidental consequence is it sounds better on big speakers? Doesn't everything sound better on big speakers??? :D

Akira
09-27-2009, 09:46 PM
What can I say--size matters.
For me listening is about fun, excitement and emotion. (within reason) I think a good speaker does all of these things while, keeping things under control and in perspective.
Mixing in a studio situation is about consistency and keeping it real.
I have never believed that music should be approached from "what the engineer intended." The goal should be to try and deliver a consistent product that translates into fun, excitement and emotion over a wide variety of playback systems.

scott fitlin
09-28-2009, 05:29 PM
What can I say--size matters.
For me listening is about fun, excitement and emotion. (within reason) I think a good speaker does all of these things while, keeping things under control and in perspective.
Mixing in a studio situation is about consistency and keeping it real.
I have never believed that music should be approached from "what the engineer intended." The goal should be to try and deliver a consistent product that translates into fun, excitement and emotion over a wide variety of playback systems.:applaud:

My thinking exactly, well said, Akira! :bouncy:

Eaulive
10-02-2009, 09:05 PM
But one interesting thing has popped up: My old Harman Kardon HK870, 100WPC power amp, is actually LOUDER than the Crown, which is has more RMS power!!

Doc
You're confusing power and gain, the Crown being a pro amplifier has less gain and needs more input to reach rated output.

Also, no offense but "RMS power" means nothing. It doesn't exist ;)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audio_power#Sine_wave_power