Sound cards for laptops

[opimax]

I listen to music off the net a lot. I have a dedicated laptop that just does Pandora(.com). When I connect it to my system via RCAs or digital coax it picks up noises from the computer such as a mild hum and hd activity.

I am thinking if I got a card w/optical out there would be no physical connection, no noise.

I don't think I need it to do anything else, no movies or games on it; just make the best sounds off the net. At one time when sat radio just started I used to do this w/Sirius but I am on XM now and the sound quality makes it unlistenable to over a computer currently

Any input is appreciated

Mark

[boputnam]

I haven't run across that symptom, before.

Are both devices on the same AC circuit? Just wondering if there is a GL problem - if so, a DI (induction coil) between the two should work.

I stream XM and a variety of other sources almost constantly - while compromised with compression, I don't find XM worse than others (although some of the broadband stuff on Shoutcast is terrific). You really notice a difference with XM...? Is it compression related, or overall "quality"...?

[Hoerninger]

... and hd activity.
Any input is appreciated

HD activity - it could be helpful to use an external USB soundcard. So the devices are physically apart.
But I do not know whether there will be throughput on the power line.
____________
Peter

[opimax]

It seems more pronounced than Sirius to me but both are harsh as all get out to my ears now. I have heard they have all spread the bandwidth too much for more stations and lessened the sound quality??? Pandora does have better sound quality to my ears.

So far it the only device that I hook up which does this. Using the same mini din to RCAs and a portable CD player doesn't do this. I listen that much that even if I didn't have hum and hd activity that I would want to make sure I listening in the best possible manor anyway. I would think that a quality sound product would sound better anyway and be worth it from that point.

It is better when run on battery and I remove the power brick from the equation but the battery has no life as it is old (sounds like me too, lol) and still hoping fro better sound quality if possible

Bo it might be the compression I am hearing don't know but it does almost bring on headaches...

Maybe their harshness is at the same frequncy as my titinitus and makes it worse :)

Mark

[opimax]

Didn't even think of a usb sound card!! haven't seen one either but a new possibility. any experience with one?

thanks much

Mark

[hjames]

How is the laptop connected to the net - through a cablemodem & ethernet cable, or via wireless? Cause you could be getting hum from the CATV system ...



It seems more pronounced than Sirius to me but both are harsh as all get out to my ears now. I have heard they have all spread the bandwidth too much for more stations and lessened the sound quality??? Pandora does have better sound quality to my ears.

So far it the only device that I hook p which does this. Using the same mini din to RCAs and a portable CD player doesn't do this. I listen that much that even if I didn't have hum and hd activity that I would want to make sure I listening in the best possible manor anyway. I would think that a quality sound product would sound better anyway and be worth it from that point.

It is better when run on battery and I remove the power brick from the equation but the battery has no life as it is old (sounds like me too, lol) and still hoping fro better sound quality if possible

Mark

[opimax]

wireless, does it w/all sounds IIRC.

thanks

Mark

[boputnam]

So far it the only device that I hook up which does this. Using the same mini din to RCAs and a portable CD player doesn't do this. Ah, the clue!

You have a ground loop (GL) developing between devices. Very common. Try the Radio Shack ground loop isolation transformer (http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062214&cp=&sr=1&origkw=isolation+transformer&kw=isolation+transformer&parentPage=search) - it's cheap! It will remedy that problem in a jiffy.

[opimax]

Would a new sound card sound better anyway though? OEM tends to be a cost cutter in most items

thanks for the picture

Mark

[boputnam]

Would a new sound card sound better anyway though? OEM tends to be a cost cutter in most items...Yes, almost always. However, that may or may not relieve the ground loop issue - this relates to AC grounding of the power supplies and not to the sound card, per se.

[opimax]

I would think if no contact between metals would prevent the loop and sound better that is where to go. Time to go to Ebay :(

Mark

trying to decide between

http://us.creative.com/products/product.asp?category=209&subcategory=669&product=16642

appears to be newest and what i am looking for

And

http://www.creative.com/products/product.asp?category=1&subcategory=205&product=10769

outdated maybe

[hjames]

I would think if no contact between metals would prevent the loop and sound better that is where to go. Time to go to Ebay :(

Mark
Frankly, Bo's gadget may be all you need generally that kind of device contains an "opto-isolator" a very short optical link to isolate the electrical circuits at each end.

But a sound card with optical out to connect to your system would also give good electrical isolation, and probably better audio quality that the (usually cheap) DAC chip built onto your motherboard - as long as it doesn't add more digital/analog conversion stages.

Bo's solution is under $20 - I'd try that one first!

[opimax]

Looks like it will have to be the outdated one as I don't have the correct connection for the new style. I have the old card bus slot which is Audigy 2 ZS. Should take care of the buzz and improve sound.

I'll go with Bo's answer if this doesn't work. why but both when you are a cheap SOB ? ;)

Mark

[boputnam]

...that kind of device contains an "opto-isolator" a very short optical link to isolate the electrical circuits at each end...Actually, it's not an opto-isolator (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opto-isolator), but is merely an isolation transformer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isolation_transformer) of two induction coils. :dont-know

[hjames]

Actually, it's not an opto-isolator (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opto-isolator), but is merely an isolation transformer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isolation_transformer) of two induction coils. :dont-know


Okay - there I go assuming high tech when low tech seems to work fine!
T'anks for the clarification, Bo :D

[Hoerninger]

Okay - there I go assuming high tech when low tech seems to work fine!

I dare to object M'lady: It is a question of implementation.
Studio technique of the fifties (last century ;)) used a lot of transformers with remarkable results. And an opto-coppler can be a tricky thing - non hifi. :dont-know
___________
Peter

[hjames]

I dare to object M'lady: It is a question of implementation.
Studio technique of the fifties (last century ;)) used a lot of transformers with remarkable results. And an opto-coppler can be a tricky thing - non hifi. :dont-know
___________
Peter

Well, Hifi or not - lasers on a chip are more "high tech" than a transformer, whatever the results. I'll settle for the better results of your transformers tho, thanks!

[SMKSoundPro]

http://www.creative.com/products/product.asp?category=1&subcategory=205&product=10769

Dear Mark,

What you are hearing is the hard drive noise. I had it when I bought my new Gateway laptop in December 2006. I use my laptop at work at the nightclub, and QUICKLY found out how much the internal sound chip SUCKED!

I tried the exact same isolation transformer that Bo is showing you with NO better results.

I searched for and found, pretty much, my only choice was the Creative Audigy expansion slot sound card.

WHAT A DIFFERENCE!!!!!! OUTSTANDING!!!!!!!

I found it on Newegg.com on sale for $45, instead of the $85. The card outputs with a 1/8" stereo plug or optical, and when plugged into a Yamaha M2 amp and JBL L110's sounds like a million bucks!!! It is the sound system for my workshop office abaove the bar.

I then take my laptop downstairs to the main ballroom where it plugs into the big rig. I am able to use the windows media player and play a playlist of music as the room fills with people before the friday night drag/variety show.

IF YOU CHOOSE TO: Try the creative card that you have listed, and will not be sorry! I promise if you don't like it, I will buy it from you and give it to the other moron dj's that walk in to our club with a laptop and have NO clue about a ground loop, isolation transformer, spacial density, dbx 166's, wavelength propagation, VCA's...etc.

(Editor's note) Just make sure there is some JBL brand or Altec-Lansing brand stuff in your listening system, otherwise the moderators could say we are way off-topic!

I am "Junky, But Loud" always!!!

Sincerely and very enthusiastically submitted,

Sourdough Scotty.

Please find below: Latest project - 4 SR4733 type enclosures. two-2225, 2445/2380horn combo and 1 or 2 2402/2405s. All four cabs from 13 ply Baltic Birch and outstanding joinery details! Can't wait to get them done and downstairs to stack on the four SR4719's built earlier in the year.

[StillUse4560s]

Hi,

Might want to RIP your favorite CD (or at least a few tracks) to a .WAV file at 44.1khz sample rate and play that from the laptop. This will give you a reference of what might be the best audio possible from that particular computer. With that, work out whether you use an optical out or the transformer isolation method, or new sound card etc.... Once you have this as a reference, then youll have a better reference for which internet streaming audio feed you prefer.

I've got a machine that has a CD drive in it that has an analog audio out that goes to the sound card, and it's audio is absolutely horrible. I discovered this when I had RIP'ed a CD and got used to what it sounded like playing from the .WAV file, then played the same thing from the CD drive and discovered the major difference. It is definitely the CD drive's D/A converter.

I agree with what's been provided above, having used Transformer coupled audio, USB external sound cards (USB-Pre) and also a card with ADAT Lightpipe and S/PDIF to external D/A devices all with good results. The right combination of things will show up with some experimentation.

Most of all, Have fun. :) Hopefully something in this post is useful.
Mike

[opimax]

Wow!been away for few minutes researching and all this,Thanks All! :)

Now what does this mean to me? I was going to go w/a simple turlte beach usb amigo after reading cheap and optical connection. The Indigo doesn't have optical or would have chosen that...

Scotty, are you saying the Audigy 2 ZS? seems more expensive and older than the Turtle but not usb. It doesn't matter, whatever gives better sound
to my receiver. And you actually have it.

The Turtle seems the easiest to implement but sound quality is job 1

Mark

[SMKSoundPro]

Wow!been away for few minutes researching and all this,Thanks All! :)

Scotty, are you saying the Audigy 2 ZS? seems more expensive and older than the Turtle but not usb. It doesn't matter, whatever gives better sound
to my receiver. And you actually have it.

The Turtle seems the easiest to implement but sound quality is job 1

Mark
Dear Mark,

If sound quality is job 1, and it is, then try the Audigy expansion card. It is installed and connected internally in the buss. Our DJ company that we use (reluctantly) has a Creative $29 external card that plugs into any usb port.

I was able to A/B the two laptops with them and show some definitive results. My laptop was the hands-down winner, period.

As always, I am just a guy trying to get the most quality out my sound rigs that I build, design and drive. Your mileage may vary.

I am very happy with the audigy expansion slot card, and leave it "jacked in" to my laptop at all times. Do NOT pull out the card with the laptop on!!!, or you will get the blue screen of death!!

Good luck. Semper Fi! Carry on!

Scott.

[boputnam]

What you are hearing is the hard drive noise. ... I tried the exact same isolation transformer that Bo is showing you with NO better results. I stayed off this symptom, because as I said in the beginning, it was not an experience of mine, and I had no relevant knowledge.

However, the OP described two symptoms, the latter possibly being a GL:


When I connect it to my system via RCAs or digital coax it picks up noises from the computer such as a mild hum and hd activity.


So far it the only device that I hook up which does this. Using the same mini din to RCAs and a portable CD player doesn't do this. This suggests a GL is a second symptom, possibly unique and additional to the first. This is the only symptom I have relevant experience with and will be remedied using an isolation transformer.

[opimax]

I would try the gl device but I want a better sound then this fixed if possible. An additional card should solve both issues, don't know for sure till I try it. It would be worth a try if I wasn't trying to upgrade.

I doubt anybody can fully diagnose this based on my questions and descriptions. his HD noise may not be what I hear and the hum actually sounds different than most gl hums I have heard but I didn't say that to begin with.

the bottom line is the noise(s) pushed me to upgrade and I appreciate ALL help .

I honestly blame my receiver sony str-da9000 for all noises, i think it is sensitive any issue it can be!

Mark

[doodlebug]

I have recently fought a similar problem with a Dell laptop. Same symptoms of hard disk noise being imposed into the audio system made up of various components: preamp, power amp, Presonus Firepod audio interface (great product, BTW).

After swapping out all of the above with other gear to isolate the problem, I discovered that the laptop didn't do it anymore while running on batteries. Turns out that the Dell switching supply, which has all 3 proper connections on the AC side and a 2 wire output side to the laptop, is generating a _lot_ of noise into the grounding system of the house! I used one of those 'ground lifter'/cheater plugs to lift the safety ground - not a good idea to do long term - and the noise is now gone.

For me, this was a good excuse to go out and get a new computer but that may not be the best answer for you.

As for the sound card to purchase, I also stream a lot of internet radio and have done so for at least the past 3 years. Bit stream speed are going up and 128K is proving to deliver a pretty good sound if the source end is well engineered. I'd suggest you get a USB 2.0 or Firewire-based device. This has a couple of advantages:

* You need to get one with a separate power supply. Anything you can do to get the sound card out of the computer's power supply. They weren't designed for audio work and usually it shows as you're learning.

* You can isolate the processing off of your computer. This helps a lot but even then, if you're doing any sort of heavy processing, you'll hear a bit of dropouts occasionally. Generally, I've found that more memory helps here. Also, bump up your swap space if you're low on memory.

* Lastly, if you've got a laptop, use a separate PCMCIA USB or Firewire interface to run the sound card. I discovered on my Dell that the Firewire port is shared with the wireless node and that caused all sorts of problems with real-time bit streaming. The cost is low for a separate controller so let the hardware handle it rather than compete for common computing resources. Also, make sure its a USB 2.0 compliant port system. The old 1.x ports sometimes act squirrely for no aparent reason.

Also, expand your horizons for source material. I listen a lot to www.radioio.com's (http://www.radioio.com's) jazz, classical and acoustic streams. For that matter, download Slim Devices' Squeezebox emulator, Softsqueeze, along with the Slim Server software and see what kind of links they have. I like the Swiss jazz station as well as a couple of the German high-speed classical stations.

Hope that helps.

Cheers,

David

[opimax]

I use last year's laptop from work, close to unlimited supply of parts. using the a/c adapter,3 prong to 2, without connecting the ground is fine. I can swap system boards or a/c bricks any time they blow :) and i can do that next time I get out of my chair, all parts available now :)

All this computer does is turn on, auto loads IE w/home page of Pandora listen to my mix of stations, nothing else for processing.

SO back to what sound device...and specifically how it is connected. are you suggestiong a seperaate powered USB hub which is then connected via usb to the computer? and what specific sound card?

the computer is a Compaq EVO NC610c in an adavanced port replicator which does have a separate powered USB hub but powered by the same brick so same results most likely there. Although if the noise goes away w/the adapter any usb would work(crossing fingers) or back to the sound laster card

Thanks

Mark

[doodlebug]

I've had good results from the M-audio Audiophile USB sound 'card'. I used it for a couple of years up until I stepped up to the Presonus Firewire. This was done to accomodate some recording I started doing for the bands I've played in.

For the price, the M-audo Audiophile USB is pretty hard to beat. The low end of the outboard DAC market (see here for an idea: http://www.sweetwater.com/shop/computer-audio/audio_interfaces/)seems to be flooded these days making a decision harder, for sure. The key is to define what functionality you need. If all you want to do is just output computer-based audio, then you can do that for less than $150 easily these days. In this case, don't get hung up about what type of interface, Firewire/USB, and just make sure that the device is self-powered. There are a lot of the cheapest interfaces that are that way because they depend on the port to power them.

So, I don't have a specific recommendation but only can share what I've learned dinking around with this part of computers and audio come together.

Cheers,

David

[opimax]

Noise is 99% gone!!!only at volumes I don't listen to can you hear it Thanks!

I guess now the queston is what sound card to get for an improvement? So far 1 experienced user votes for his SB PCMCIA card. any other actual experiences out there? from looking on the web the highest raves have been for the Indigo brand although older and doesn't have optical

Scott, I just saw your link at the top of the post , missed until now for which model, we are talking the same thing here, ignore the PM

the SB is not self powered :( , seems to be a reasonable goal but if the noises are gone does it still matter?


Also I have a digital coax on the docking station, giving that a try later...

Mark

[SMKSoundPro]

Good luck in your adventure and please keep us up to date with your progress.

And for Bo: I also use the exact same ground loop isolation transformer from radio shack plugged in to each dj booth system for anyone to plug in their laptop or other device. A cheap way to go for sure. I don't cut-off ground pins off of the male edison plug, unless backed up against a wall and forced to.

To Mark: Good Luck!

Scott/

[opimax]

I seem to have had the same problem from my Velodyne SMS1 which has the same power supply style, another 3 to 2 prong adapter, no noise :)

Not impressed that I even have to deal with this on the Velodyne unit...at all!
:banghead:

Mark

[John W]

I'm considering setting up a direct USB to digital output like is available from this site.

http://www.hagtech.com/hagusb.html

My DSP has an AES digital input and a nice DAC. Anyone here have experience with these units, or something similar?

[Hoerninger]

http://www.hagtech.com/hagusb.html

No experience, but thank you for the link. I would not have expected that Hagtech offers such a piece of gear.
__________
Peter

[opimax]

I ended up getting rid of almost all noise , used the digital co ax output on the port expander (docking station) to a digital in on the receiver, sounds pretty good for use w/Pandora(.com)

Mark