Paragon vs TAD

[enjoy_the_music]

Hi guys

I have invested a bit of cash lately into TAD Exclusive 2401 Twin speakers and also the 2402's...currently in transit from Asia.

I've been checking out some Paragons, i am sure you've been asked before but how well do they play compared to more 'modern' designs like the TAD's?

or maybe how well do they play generally compared to more modern designs from the K2 range?

Tried to search in the forums...there seems to be a mixed reception to their performance.

Thanks in advance!

Richard

[messengerman]

I'd be surprised if many people have heard both, they're pretty rare speakers. Maybe Merlin has or Joel over at PFM (if he's still there).

From what I have read the prices Paragons fetch reflects their iconic style rather than their sound quality and they are unlikely to be anywhere near as good as the Exclusives are reputed to be.

[Thom]

I had a friend who had one with LE15A's and the bass was real tight and constricted. There isn't much cabinet behind the woofer. I would imagine that the 154-C's were worse. He added 6 cubic feet behind each LE15A + a passive radiator and it came to life. That was one of the best playing set ups I've ever heard. He built a 500 square foot addition to his house just for that. I've never heard the TAD's but with that simple mod. the paragon became a monster and it's a gorgeous piece of furniture. But, factory straight, the bass is very disappointing.

[Mr. Widget]

I have invested a bit of cash lately into TAD Exclusive 2401 Twin speakers and also the 2402's...currently in transit from Asia.

I've been checking out some Paragons, i am sure you've been asked before but how well do they play compared to more 'modern' designs like the TAD's?This seems like a silly comparison to me. I have never heard the factory built TAD monitors, but I am quite familiar with the drivers and horns. I'd say that a far more appropriate comparison would be with JBL 4430/4435s. In this case I'd probably go with the TADs, but others may prefer the JBLs.

I think the Paragon is gorgeous, but fixing it's tubby sounding bass is only the beginning. It is a 60 year old design and it just isn't Hi-Fi by today's standards.


Widget

[Maron Horonzakz]

The Paragon is not extended enough at both ends of bandwith....I replaced the 075 with 2405 and the 150-4 with LE15....also remember only the 375 & mid horn reflect off curved panel. If useing a TAD 4001or 376 instead of 375 reflecting off panel "full range" above 500hz it would be more effective. But overall the Paragon is easy on the eye, beautiful to look at but not a serious contender in todays speakers.

[Thom]

The Paragon is not extended enough at both ends of bandwith....I replaced the 075 with 2405 and the 150-4 with LE15....also remember only the 375 & mid horn reflect off curved panel. If useing a TAD 4001 instead of 375 reflecting off panel "full range" above 500hz it would be more effective. But overall the Paragon is easy on the eye, beautiful to look at but not a serious contender in todays speakers.

Only the earliest paragons have 150-4's. If you have charts and graphs and such to show me wrong then I cant say much but the only complaint I've ever heard about 075's is either there were places you just couldn't sit or there was only one place you could enjoy them and I thought that it played off the round sound board on the paragon. I know the 375's did. I wouldn't remember strongly because I always loved that tweeter. It made most tapes unlistenable I figured the was a flaw in the tape system. If it's bandwidth is narrow why did it show hiss and such that lessor tweeters hid. At the time that slot tweeter came out they both listed the same high cut of . The slot listed a 7K low cut off and the sell point on the slot was pattern not range. Again I'm not proclaiming it better than these other named systems. I'm not familiar with them. A lot of people didn't like JBL systems of that era and you could be one of them. That doesn't mean you couldn't have other redeeming attributes. You might still be a very nice person.

There are a couple of things that would kill it today. They could fix the bottom end but it would be ungodly expensive. You would have to have a paler that you had decided against putting a piano in.

[merlin]

Richard,

The Paragon I heard was quite enchanting playing Nat Cole powered by an RCA 55 based S.E.T.

But Nat was probably it's limit.

I'd like to see a similar design for the 21st century, plasma eyed, style generation. With DSP and modern drive units, it could be quite interesting.

[Maron Horonzakz]

Thom...about the Paragon..I have had three plus a Ebony Metrogon... You are the most misinformed person i ever met about this speaker....

[jim campbell]

overall the Paragon is easy on the eye, beautiful to look at but not a serious contender in todays speakers.makes one wonder if a return to the all in one console stereo systems of the sixties but with modern internals and speaker systems would catch on........think fine cabinetry,convenience,waf......

[Thom]

Thom...about the Paragon..I have had three plus a Ebony Metrogon... You are the most misinformed person i ever met about this speaker....

Surely you don't disagree with me that it had 075 and 375. It then had 150-4c when that was JBL's big woofer and when they canceled that woofer and the LE15a became their big woofer it then got a LE15A. You may disagree with me on that, but it's in documents. The unit was made for years after the 150-4c was discontinued. If you know of an additional woofer, change maybe so. I'm unaware of it. You can't disagree with me about my friends modification. You weren't there. And as far as the sound, that is subjective so where am I misinformed? Someone should come along and slap me if I declared myself an expert on them, but I don't see where, from what I posted you can make that statement. Oh! The piano parlor bit. I just meant placing it is much more difficult than placing two smaller speakers. I can think of many places where two fairly large speakers would go that the paragon wouldn't work with. Doorways come to mind instantly. Now that they are building TV's with low profile screens that wouldn't be a problem but until very recently combining it with a big screen would have been difficult. If you have owned 3 you probably have had more exposure to them than I have, still just because yours had early woofers doesn't mean they always did. They were definitely designed so that the woofer was in a horn (or at least one of their writers thought so) although I don't know at what frequencies it was supposed to be effective because it didn't have much low end, and the mid horns were aimed at the curved board as much as they were to the front so you got reflected sound, Also mentioned in literature. I can't remember for sure about the 075's. And that makes me the most misinformed person about paragons you've ever met? If you say so, but I'd be interested in knowing which statement was the final one that made me the most. Sometimes that isn't that easy to achieve. I'm sure you can sort through and tell what's serious. I'm really not offended. not yet anyway. But aside from subjectively feeling way different about the 075 than you do. Where do you take issue.

[Maron Horonzakz]

Thom...If you look in tech sheet for the Paragon you will find recommended speakers to be used for that unit....such as 376, 2440,2441, 2402. 136, 2215, etc, etc. You can also use the newer neo. series....Nothing is write-in in stone obout the Paragon....Even the outer cabinet assembly has different but suttle changes...You didnt Know the cabinet was of two inner & outer cabinet structures ? the horn assembly plus the final wood veneered dressed assembly...Left & right mirror copys...The center curved panel is made up of 1/8 laminated sheets glued together last layer has final veneer, Top edge hand veneered, & placed in a curved jig to cure over night, Lower skirt assembled & front wood legs installed....Did you know one of the front leg assemblys was cast in plaster & painted black. For a customer in St Louis? or another was (legs) Gold leafed...For a stage display in a disco bar? A Metrogon painted purple for a JBL dealer....This dealer had all of his speaker woofers & drivers painted purple as a personal trade mark from the JBL factory...Do you know where the front curved legs were carved at? (Paragon)? Gotta leave something for you to research. Do the research and report back in 24 hours....others on this forum dont help Thom..Let him search it out. You cant find everything in JBL litrature.

[Thom]

Maron

I never claimed to be an expert on it . If you look I claim quite the opposite. I should probably realized that since most JBL cabinets were available with whatever you wanted, it would be to. But, I believe for the greater part of it's offering the 4 letter designate JBL Drivers did not exist. What You are saying surprises me, as I was under the impression that those horns for the 375's were special for the paragon. I know when I was selling JBL (I never sold a paragon) I shouldn't say I know, I'm pretty sure it was listed as a unit loaded, even if it did come as a puzzle. If you want to be the paragon expert that's fine with me. It isn't a title I had a shot at even if you weren't. I was just relaying my listening experience. May I at least be allowed to be the expert of my listening experience or do you wish that title too. If it will make you happy and stop this one man pissing contest (I'm not competing) Then you can can be the expert of my listening experience as long as you don't expect me to clear all my post's through you first. Just out of curiosity, did you inspect each paragon before it left JBL? Sort of like the Haynes inspector, "They don't say JBL until I say they say JBL". Or how did you form such a personal bond with the Model? I'm going to stop now before the line is so far behind me that I can't see it any more. Do I remind you of the guy that ran over your dog or something? I really don't understand this at all. I haven't noticed other posts from you that would make me expect this except for a couple directed at myself. Did I offend you in a previous post? If I was rude or put you down (this post excluded) let me take the time to apologise now.

[Harvey Gerst]

Just out of curiosity, did you inspect each paragon before it left JBL? Sort of like the Haynes inspector, "They don't say JBL until I say they say JBL".
Well, for the first few years of Paragon production, that was my job. As head of QC (not a particularly impressive title, since QC consisted of one person - me), it didn't go out the door till I said it did, plain and simple.

It would really piss Ray Pepe off, since he was trying to get Paragons into the homes of important people, and if I kept it from going out the door, I could count on him storming into the shipping area with murder in his eye.

He'd demand to know why I wouldn't release it, and inspect every blemish that I found. Then he'd try to badger me into passing it anyway. When that didn't work, he'd just walk away disgusted.

If Ray tried to overrule me thru Bill Thomas or Ed May, they'd always side with me, which pissed Ray off even more. I tried not to gloat. At the end of the day, Ray knew I was protecting our reputation for excellence.

God, I loved that place; we were really a family, in every sense of the word.

[louped garouv]

That's a great story Harvey!

"protecting our reputation for excellence" -- wish more folks did that (or had people to really do it) in their businesses today

thanks for sharing....

[Oldmics]

Now I understand why JBL only manufactured and released only a thousand or so Paragons.

Without Harvey saying "NO" there might have been a million produced :applaud:.

Harvey,did you also inspect the commercial Paragons that were meant for installs?

Oldmics

[Maron Horonzakz]

Harvey...Yes I have a photo of Pepe working on one of the Paragons...He was a craftsman and a artison....I think some of the small variations he did was probably to piss you off....I was able to spot some differences on six of them passing through owners in St Louis. Plus three clones by a couple of craftsman who made exact copies in walnut..But the front legs were bought from JBL as replacement surplus....They were so exacting, evein the metal sub assemblies for attaching horn behind curved panel looked authenic., plus the metal assemblies attaching left & right cabinets & pulling them together were good copies. Thom no attack on you was made,,,But to clairify what is recommended in JBLs Tech Manual site...It states a serviceable replacement such as the 2235H woofer can be used or even a mid 376 or a 2441 Pro drivers 2402H can be used in the tweeter also. Also a friend of mine is contemplating replacing his tweeters 075 in the Paragon with TAD ET-703 super tweeters. He has a rare Rosewood Paragon...He,s much younger than me so that one will stay in the family for quite some time. There was another Paragon Who some dumbshit cut the curved panel in half....for a wider stereo spread...When I accuired that one I was able to get a replacement curved panel through Hi Fi Showroom from JBL...Im sure Ray Peppe was shocked at that butcherd account.

[RKLee]

You guys are so lucky to have heard a real JBL Paragon for an extended period of time. I heard one once only in hi fi store 30 years ago, and only about 5 minutes, on FM music. I was defintely impressed with the quality of the wood finish, it was mirror smooth. Back then JBL 375/2461/2481 compression drivers were $250 each, a rather princely sum back then.

[Maron Horonzakz]

Yes my first audition was in St Louis..HiFi Showroom in Clayton got one on loan from JBL for a few months...for display.. Quite an expierence,,,,Even Walt the salesman at the Showroom bought one for him self. But even JBL through the years out did that unit in the Pro line with wider bandwith monitors. In the Kennedy years at the White House a Paragon was on display...I wonder what happened to that one...Its probably in a Govt. warehouse...Waiting for some new President to decorate the White House in that Kennedy era furniture. Waite till they find out the woofers need reconing....Itle probably cost the tax payers a million bucks to restore.:D

[jim campbell]

probably got smashed with one of those 900 dollar hammers

[Thom]

My friend added the pr15 in '72 and probably had no idea that there was a tech manual saying a 2235 was an acceptable replacement. You probably didn't play yours with a 60 watt JBL amp and a thorens turntable with the electronic Rabco arm that had been kitted to suppress the clicks. I'm not suggesting that was hot just that sometimes you don't know what someone else has witnessed.

[Maron Horonzakz]

Campbell.....Maybe the white house Paragon was installed in one of those Katrina trailers..As far as those $900. doller hammers, FEMA is passing those out to those who want to rebuild in New Orleans.:D

[57BELAIRE]

I have been doing some subjective listening tests(tweeters) lately between a Paragon, an L300, a Minigon and a 4311.

Each has their own good points and some not so good.

I 've said this before...the Paragon needs proper room placement
and equalization for optimum performance. IMHO.

It can be rather disappointing the hear one "running flat" in
a hard listening room ( lots of tile and no carpeting or heavy drapes).

I have this one eq'd to my personal listening tastes and don't
find it missing anything. In fact more than a few pro musicians
have agreed the Paragon won hands down over the L300.
Both had that JBL "slam" but the way the Paragon filled the
room with sound was really quite dramatic.

Refering to my first paragraph I will say this...the LE30 sounds so much like the 077 it's scary. I can see why they're in such demand.

The 075 and LE25 ran 3rd and 4th respectively.

[jcdahl]

I own a couple of Paragons which I have rebuilt. I found the low end to be lacking so, I augment them with a Pair of sub 1500s in homebrew cabinets. (about 155lbs each) the subs are driven below 90 hz with a 2600 watt Mackie amp.

The resulting combination is unbelievable.

Hey 57Belaire, Is that an ebony Paragon in the jpg?... I am consideing refinishing one I bought from a junk yard guy in Piano black finish.

[enjoy_the_music]

Wow...the stories and responses here have been excellent. Many thanks for the insights, its difficult to know so sometimes i have to ask stupid questions!

[57BELAIRE]

I own a couple of Paragons which I have rebuilt. I found the low end to be lacking so, I augment them with a Pair of sub 1500s in homebrew cabinets. (about 155lbs each) the subs are driven below 90 hz with a 2600 watt Mackie amp.

The resulting combination is unbelievable.

Hey 57Belaire, Is that an ebony Paragon in the jpg?... I am consideing refinishing one I bought from a junk yard guy in Piano black finish.

Yes...if you're looking for a very close match for the restoration material,
check out Wilsonart gloss black laminate...the best I've found.

Yours is the first I've seen with the horizontal grain pattern on
the curved panel....it's beautiful.:applaud:

I'm sure we'd all like to see your resto pics on the ebony
Paragon...I've only seen one other than my own.

[cvengr]

IMHO, the Metrogon in your photo above is one of most beautiful speaker cabinets I've seen. I recognize and admire the system components along the lines of the 4350/4355 and later models might be acoustically more robust, but the functional lines of the Metrogon really seem to flow.