JBL cabinet / staining / finishing / veneer

[rjtimmerman]

Hello persons,
I have done many touch ups on the Vintage JBL's cabinets.
After working on Learjet interiors-Duncan Aviation finishing shop...gave me a bit of knowledge...for what is worth, here's my 2 cents.

How to achieve the deep tawnny orange/brown finish on walnut?
NEVER USE "WALNUT STAIN" on new American Black Walnut Veneer/solid wood trim.
(1) use Old Masters WIPING stain MAPLE 11616 first.
(2) use Old masters Penetrating stain MAPLE 40616 second coat
(3) highlight are brought out with combination of half/half
Minwax penetrating 211 Provincial and the Old masters 40616.

***These steps ABOVE are done wet on wet***do not let them dry/wipe only in each step.

(4) I prefer Minwax Antique Oil-hand rubbed. Formby's and such can get away from you..and become sticky FAST.
(*) refinishing cabinets or patch veener work- Never use "preglued" sheet backing. This has a thick
5 mils glue, and is very hard to match joints & thickness. Use the older paper back walnut veneer and contact cement- method.
(**) pre-test everything first!

I hope this may help somebody out there-on there project.
Regards R.j

[rjtimmerman]

I have now, found a better way to refinish the cabinets -back to its Nice Tawny brown finsh-much easier!
I now Use / and Sell a water base stain. Dead on match for vintage JBL/Pioneer/Sansui etc. vintage audio cabinets.

I ask $25.00 for the stain-enough to do: 2 large L300's.
[email protected]

Regards R.j.

[Wagner]

Hello persons,
I have done many touch ups on the Vintage JBL's cabinets.
After working on Learjet interiors-Duncan Aviation finishing shop...gave me a bit of knowledge...for what is worth, here's my 2 cents.

How to achieve the deep tawnny orange/brown finish on walnut?
NEVER USE "WALNUT STAIN" on new American Black Walnut Veneer/solid wood trim.
(1) use Old Masters WIPING stain MAPLE 11616 first.
(2) use Old masters Penetrating stain MAPLE 40616 second coat
(3) highlight are brought out with combination of half/half
Minwax penetrating 211 Provincial and the Old masters 40616.

***These steps ABOVE are done wet on wet***do not let them dry/wipe only in each step.

(4) I prefer Minwax Antique Oil-hand rubbed. Formby's and such can get away from you..and become sticky FAST.
(*) refinishing cabinets or patch veener work- Never use "preglued" sheet backing. This has a thick
5 mils glue, and is very hard to match joints & thickness. Use the older paper back walnut veneer and contact cement- method.
(**) pre-test everything first!

I hope this may help somebody out there-on there project.
Regards R.j

The best and correct way is to not use ANY stain at all. I sure as hell wouldn't use ANYTHING water based on a JBL cabinet. Stain is not required. I've used it once and that was an extraordinary circumstance.

Aircraft interiors don't count for much with me. I have a bit of experience. The inane rules and regulations on what can and cannot be used in the interior compartments of private and commercial aircraft is a subject that can easily confuse me to the point of anger and spoil my JBL love fest in Thomas Land.
An episode of obtaining approval for the leather (I think it was a very supple hide that Lexus uses) to re-upholster the seating and accents in a Beechcraft Baron custom job comes to mind.

Those deep hues with hints of red are already there in the veneers that JBL used, well into the 1980s.
Just a matter of putting in the effort to wake them back up in the cases of severe neglect and abuse.

Water base stains might be OK for bird houses and crafty craft craft "antiquing" projects, but in this writer's mind they have absolutely no business near anything JBL. Not to mention the high MDF and particle board content.

Thomas

[Mr. Widget]

The best and correct way is to not use ANY stain at all. I sure as hell wouldn't use ANYTHING water based on a JBL cabinet. Stain is not required. I've used it once and that was an extraordinary circumstance.

Aircraft interiors don't count for much with me. I have a bit of experience. The inane rules and regulations on what can and cannot be used in the interior compartments of private and commercial aircraft is a subject that can easily confuse me to the point of anger and spoil my JBL love fest in Thomas Land.
An episode of obtaining approval for the leather (I think it was a very supple hide that Lexus uses) to re-upholster the seating and accents in a Beechcraft Baron custom job comes to mind.

Those deep hues with hints of red are already there in the veneers that JBL used, well into the 1980s.
Just a matter of putting in the effort to wake them back up in the cases of severe neglect and abuse.

Water base stains might be OK for bird houses and crafty craft craft "antiquing" projects, but in this writer's mind they have absolutely no business near anything JBL. Not to mention the high MDF and particle board content.

ThomasGet up on the wrong side of the keyboard? Sure no stain is needed if the stain that JBL originally applied is still intact, but if you've had to sand through it, or replace some veneer, then a stain is almost always needed to match that vintage color... I did have some old walnut that was naturally that orangish tint, but most American walnut is rather grayish brown and will never look like a piece of vintage audio gear without help.

As for water based finishes? They are widely used throughout the world... some are very good and others are a real let down. Usually if you pre-wet the wood to raise the grain, let it dry, and then lightly sand it, the water based stains and dyes work quite well. That said, depending on the color, I do tend to prefer oil myself.


Widget

[Wagner]

I did have some old walnut that was naturally that orangish tint, but most American walnut is rather grayish brown and will never look like a piece of vintage audio gear without help.Widget

I agree on the grayish brown, until it is hit with oil. If the veneer is a good grade of wood, as JBL's once was, the red will pop like magic. The introduction of oil on the grain allows the light to reveal the color that God put there. The oil itself will also lend a bit of amber to the mix. The more frequently you oil Walnut the redder it will get (if it is the species under discussion here). Oil finishes will also continue to improve and become more beautiful with time, becoming deeper and more pronounced. This wonderful phenomena can go on for months or even years. Not so the case with water based "stains". They are nothing more than paint. Actually, that's all any stain is, in my opinion. Paint to make a lot of things look the same, to make a cheaper species of wood look like a more desirable one, or to fix a mistake or damage. Why would one want to paint beautiful, expensive wood? I also don't like the fact that if a water based product is used that's basically it. What you see is what you get and if you don't like it tough, you're stuck with it.

It's like pouring soda pop into a good whiskey, just drink wine coolers then.

I have refreshed many JBL cabinets from the '50s through the '90s. In the '50s through early '60s series they achieved consistency with tinted finishes. With boxes like the L100, very little if any stain is used as far as I can tell. I clean all my veneer very aggressively with solvents before oiling. If any stain was there I'd know it.

AR really relied on a lot of topical stain in their finish and if you've ever chemically cleaned any of their boxes it comes off almost like a topcoat. Red brown sludge. Their boxes looked the same from start to finish color wise. It was like magic how their boxes all matched so well.

That is until you removed all that stain crap. The veneer underneath is typically gorgeous, but then they don't appear so "grain matched", better I should say "stain matched" in their oneness. Their collective finish pool was homogeneous I'll give them that.

I don't know if JBL offered custom grain matched cabs much beyond the '60s (like Klipsch) and even then primarily on the larger systems and cabs like the "C" series. All my pairs that were consecutive in serial number nearly always enjoyed very unique differences in grain, color and hue.

So, I hate the thought of stain so much that when I do ARs, KLHs and the like for others I go to great lengths to remove all the crud and make them look more like JBLs........................

.....................beautifully natural and each one unique with the help of a little oil and turpentine. More akin to hand made furniture than mas produced boxes. Just one of the many aspects of quality that I enjoy so much with JBL

I am aware the guy hawking the stain is a lot of people's foilcal buddy. That's cool. Doesn't change how I feel, nor what I would suggest or do for others.

Friends don't let friends put water on wood!

Thomas

[Mr. Widget]

I don't know if JBL used stains or not, but I do know that the color of finished walnut on most '60s hi-fi products was lighter and had more of an orange tint than most that was sold in the '70s and early '80s before walnut went out of fashion all together. Perhaps the industry was using a slightly different variety of walnut, but my guess would be the wood was stained and as fashion changed, so did the color of the stain the various hi-fi companies used.



I am aware the guy hawking the stain is a lot of people's foilcal buddy. That's cool. Doesn't change how I feel, nor what I would suggest or do for others.Not my buddy... who he is and who you are had no bearing on my post... as for hawking, yeah, well his initial post is quite useful for people trying to recreate the look of vintage gear and he wasn't hawking anything... if people want to shoot him a note and try the product he is "hawking" why do you care? I don't personally plan on doing so as I have my own way of finishing woods and it appears you do too... but I would imagine this water based stain may yield perfectly fine results for those needing a colorant and don't have years of experience mucking about with dyes and pigments.


Friends don't let friends put water on wood!Hmmm... I guess you have never used aniline dyes. The most color fast aniline dyes tend to be water based. They are also entirely transparent and do not contain suspended pigments. As I posted earlier... using water based products adds a level of complexity to the process, and with open grained woods like walnut and mahogany, I prefer oil and oil based finishes, but if you want to keep maple looking bright and white, you better use a water based finish... that beautiful oil ambering that looks so good on many woods will make a modernist maple design look pretty dingy in a few years.

Fine furniture? It isn't all dark or traditional... there is a reason that so many products exist in the marketplace and water based products aren't only DIY "easy clean up" products that are offered at home improvement stores and typically produce inferior results.


Widget

[rjtimmerman]

Hello,
I have used this stain with fantastic results. I came across this stain while building a Dumas 1920's Typhoon 1/10 scale RC wood Mahogany boat.
After spending 400 hours to build this hand planked 42 inch boat, I too was skeptical of a water base stain. But Dumas manufacturing recommends this stain (making
boat kits for over 60 years+). The detail of the grain is warm and wonderful!
Since then I use it on all JBL cabinets with new veneer or as a touch up.
Until you try something you will not know.
Regards, R.j

[Wagner]

I agree, there's more than one way to skin a cat.

Didn't intend to upset anyone.

Thomas

[Mr. Widget]

I agree, there's more than one way to skin a cat.

Didn't intend to upset anyone.

ThomasNo offense taken by me, I just wanted to point out that water based isn't categorically the wrong approach... it may often be less desirable, but there are more and more very high quality professional finishes coming to market that are water based.

On the subject of color... I did not use any stain on these horns. I simply used Watco Natural Danish Oil finish and they look very nice, but they do not have that vintage orange tone. If anyone knows about the production techniques used in the '60s, I'd love to hear it.


Widget

[rdgrimes]

I've always felt that the reddish tone came from the turpentine used in the original finishing. Tends to darken over the years. So the best way to obtain the original look will still be the turpentine/linseed cocktail. Too bad it stinks to high heaven.

[Wagner]

No offense taken by me, I just wanted to point out that water based isn't categorically the wrong approach... it may often be less desirable, but there are more and more very high quality professional finishes coming to market that are water based.

On the subject of color... I did not use any stain on these horns. I simply used Watco Natural Danish Oil finish and they look very nice, but they do not have that vintage orange tone. If anyone knows about the production techniques used in the '60s, I'd love to hear it.


Widget

Lovely.

Wait about 40 years and see what that tone is, with annual oiling or course. ;)

Thomas

[Wagner]

I've always felt that the reddish tone came from the turpentine used in the original finishing. Tends to darken over the years. So the best way to obtain the original look will still be the turpentine/linseed cocktail. Too bad it stinks to high heaven.

:yes:

Thomas

[Mr. Widget]

Lovely.

Wait about 40 years and see what that tone is, with annual oiling or course. ;)

ThomasTurpentine makes sense... though I did find a stash of very old walnut that had that color in it naturally. Perhaps the wood itself also turns a bit orange with time. I know padauk which is bright orange turns rather walnut looking with time. :)

Since it is unlikely I'll be around to enjoy them in 40 years, it would appear "cheating" with a stain makes the most sense. ;)


Widget

[rjtimmerman]

Hello, Yes... when my water stain dries... it is brite Orange in color. Then once a top oil is applied to changes to a rich deep tawny slight orange brown!
r.j

[rdgrimes]

Turpentine makes sense...
It's even slightly orange right out of the can.

I tried the original cocktail on one pair of L46 that I re-did. After sanding the veneer is grey-brown with almost no red. Hit it with the stinky stuff and it was immediately reddish again. That color can only darken with age. I think I wound up putting Tung oil over that and the color didn't change. But even the plain clear Tung oil will bring out some of the reddish-brown again, just not like it looks when aged.

[Audiobeer]

I've always felt that the reddish tone came from the turpentine used in the original finishing. Tends to darken over the years. So the best way to obtain the original look will still be the turpentine/linseed cocktail. Too bad it stinks to high heaven.

Won't be the first time we have had our noses nears something that stinks. The Chinese always used shellacs to protect thier woods, that gave the wood an orange tint. The laquer family always had a amber tint to it. Theres so many ways to achieve the goal. I have restored a lot of JBL cabinets fron the 50s and 60s and find signs of hand staining. Thier aproach changed just like the speaker technology.

[brutal]

No offense taken by me, I just wanted to point out that water based isn't categorically the wrong approach... it may often be less desirable, but there are more and more very high quality professional finishes coming to market that are water based.

On the subject of color... I did not use any stain on these horns. I simply used Watco Natural Danish Oil finish and they look very nice, but they do not have that vintage orange tone. If anyone knows about the production techniques used in the '60s, I'd love to hear it.


Widget


It's even slightly orange right out of the can.

I tried the original cocktail on one pair of L46 that I re-did. After sanding the veneer is grey-brown with almost no red. Hit it with the stinky stuff and it was immediately reddish again. That color can only darken with age. I think I wound up putting Tung oil over that and the color didn't change. But even the plain clear Tung oil will bring out some of the reddish-brown again, just not like it looks when aged.

I've been using Watco Natural Danish Oil on everything I've refinished, and by refinish I mean sanded to bare wood as much as possible without burning through. There have been some "spaghetti wood" cabs that didn't take to sanding off the finish.

The latest success is the B460 project. I'll post pics when I can, but it and every other JBL walnut cab I've refinished sure looks the right shade to me. The potential added benefit of Watco is that there are some polymers in it that are supposed to help harden the wood. I also apply Watco Teak Oil once a year to the 250Ti's.

[rjtimmerman]

The vintage orange desired is by mixing my stain with 8-12oz. of water- More or less.
I just offering a very simple staining method is all.

Top: American Black Walnut raw.
Middle: Orange stain applied.
Bottom: top coat of oil, on the stained walnut.

Reagrds, R.j

[mbottz]

This is a great alternative for those that are not experienced with matching new walnut with vintage walnut. Together with the other quality products RJ produces, restoration of our favorite JBL treasures is a lot easier.

Thanks RJ for another quality product.

MB

[brutal]

The vintage orange desired is by mixing my stain with 8-12oz. of water- More or less.
I just offering a very simple staining method is all.

Top: American Black Walnut raw.
Middle: Orange stain applied.
Bottom: top coat of oil, on the stained walnut.

Reagrds, R.j

Looks awesome. I suspect if I were starting with new raw walnut, this would be the way to go.

On a side note, assuming you see the post, do you offer the black grill pegs that have the small diameter feathered insert? I need three or four for my B460 project.

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=19604&stc=1&d=1161024809

[rusty jefferson]

I've always felt that the reddish tone came from the turpentine used in the original finishing. Tends to darken over the years. So the best way to obtain the original look will still be the turpentine/linseed cocktail. Too bad it stinks to high heaven.

Actually it's the linseed oil that darkens over time, and actually never stops darkening. That's why grandma's 100 year old walnut rocker originally finished with linseed oil is now almost black. High quality (steam distilled) turpentine is clear.

I would imagine JBL used some blend of oil/varnish/turpentine originally. Change the ratio and the color changes with time.

A few years ago I bought a pair of 4412s that had been soffit mounted since the day they came out of the box. The color was that rather greyish hue of freshly finished walnut. There was very little change from new sitting in the dark. They have ambered quite a bit since then, but are pretty far behind. Sunlight effects all finishes.