Clio Lite or Standard?

[Baron030]

Hi, I am looking for advice on equipment for testing a speaker’s frequency response and impedance. To greatly complicate any frequency response measurements, my apartment has a concrete ceiling. So, the slap echoes from the ceiling, kind of rules out some of the less expensive RTA choices available. While, I could remove this slap echo problem by moving my speakers outside and terrorizing my apartment complex with some 120 db test tones. I really don’t want to advertise to the whole neighborhood that I have some very expensive audio gear. It would just invite a break into my apartment.

So, has anyone had any experience with the “Cliowin 7 Lite” version?

Thanks,
Baron030 :)

[Mr. Widget]

So, has anyone had any experience with the “Cliowin 7 Lite” version?
Yes. :D

CLIO is very good and the lite version is quite a bargain. There are less expensive alternatives, but for ease of use and overall quality I don't think you can do better than CLIO.

Take a look at this long and meandering thread:

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=8370


Widget

[Baron030]

Thanks, Mr. Widget

I had forgotten about that discussion thread.
I think I will need to re-read that thread a few more times just to soak it all in.
It sure covers a lot of ground.

Are there any less expensive alternatives that can also duplicate Clio's simulated Anechoic Analysis?
If I understand how this feature really works, the measurements are taken so quickly that the slap echo is not measured at all.

Thanks Again,
Baron030

[Robh3606]

Hello Baron

I got Clio Lite and Upgraded. It was cheaper that way than with the full version. Check to see it it will work for you too. I think it's great!! I have not had luck with programs that work with the existing card and Clio uses a dedicated card so it real easy to install.

As far as other programs you have Sound Easy and ATRA which looks pretty good as well and it's free. Check out the manual.

http://www.fesb.hr/~mateljan/arta/

Rob:)

[moldyoldy]

Since I already had the hardware, I opted for the economical Sample Champion Light, at $70.25 USD;

http://www.purebits.com/index.html

It's a very capable program, but far from user-friendly. IMO, mainly due to the multitude of separate popup windows one needs to simultaneously manipulate to perform even simple tasks, and the need to manually initiate every single step. An extensive manual fully describes each window, but gives no clue as to how they relate to each other in a step-by-step type format. I think I'll get it down in time, but it's been frustrating. For those with a good math/algebra background, it might be easier. I had TrueRTA setup, calibrated, and mastered in a couple of hours, and have dozens of hours on SCL, with no results I'm fully confident are correct yet.

I'd recommend checking out the user manual for any you consider, even before wasting a trial install. Had I done that, I think I'd have spent more $.

[Baron030]

Hi Rob
I am really taking note to the fact that you have not had much luck with programs that use existing sound cards. And I suspect that this is going to be a big issue here. My computer is an old DELL that was built a way back on September of 2000. It has a Soundblaster 64V PCI sound card and the now obsolete Windows ME operating system. Hell, I am not even sure if my sound card is a "Full duplex soundcard with synchronous clock for AD and DA converters" or not. Since, the Arta software is "shareware" and that I already have a DBX-RTA microphone and a PreSonus tube-preamp. I should at the very least give the Arta software a try. But, if I run into any problems, I am not going to waste a lot of time missing around with this shareware stuff.

There is not doubt in my mind that the Clio system is going to be far more accurate. So, maybe I will end up having to bite the 2402 and shell out the big bucks for Clio Lite after all.

Currently, I have got only a few projects on my "to do" list. So, it would be nice to save some money here. But, I really do need is some good test equipment to complete my little ultimate home system project.
First, on my "to do" list is to build a better a passive equalizer for my 2012H drivers. I am running these over a narrow frequency range of 500 Hz to 1200 Hz. My system uses an Ashley 4-way electronic crossover network and a Crown K1 to feed the 2012s through the EQ circuit seen below. All in all, the current tank circuit does an OK job, But, I suspect that with smaller coil value in this network I could make it work better over a larger frequency range. But, with the slap echoes coming from the ceiling, all of my test crude test results are really pretty questionable at best and it's really hard for me to know exactly how to proceed.
And the second item on my "to do" list is to add a little high frequency boost on my 2382a/2446H horn drivers. I am running them over a 1200 Hz to 8 KHz range and if you look at the 2382a response curve below, you can see that these horns have a sizable drop by the time they reach 8 KHz. Currently, I have been using the Ashley' response control to give this 8Khz region a little boost, with some 2405s finally filling out the systems top end. But, with a little passive EQ on the 2446s, I suspect that the system's response could be smoother.
Thanks again,
Baron030 :)

[moldyoldy]

Here's a handy, completely freeware loop analyser I like, made to blueprint soundcards, works on anything you wanna loop, like amps. Insures your actual performance to hifi standards. Autorun routine takes just a few seconds.

http://www.download.com/RightMark-Audio-Analyzer/3000-2169_4-10298422.html?tag=lst-0-1

[Ian Mackenzie]

Barron,

I am not sure you will fair so well with just Clio.

There are two problems.

Measuring the driver is one thing but finding the right compensation curve and implementing it passivelyis another.

Unless you have powerful modelling and simulation software available generating the required compensation with passive elements as refined as you are looking for won't be easy.

You will need to import the data into the modelling software for Hilbert- Bode transformation etc run trials and build passive circuits.:blah: :blah: :banghead:

The alternative is to invest in a professional Eq device, either digtial or analogue and amend the driver response that way. The result would probably be better and allow modifications on the fly. A Klark Teknik or similar Eq might be the answer. Alternatively look at a quality Parametric EQ. Or you could upgrade to DEQX.

Remember though just because a loudspeaker measures flat does not mean it will sound better or right.

[Robh3606]

Hello Ian

How is Sound Easy working out for you?? You can actually try different crossovers in real time from your schematics if I remember correctly. That certainly is a big advantage for someone doing DIY speakers.

Rob:)

[Baron030]

Hi Ian
You have made some very valid points here.
I fully understand that Clio by itself not really a solution for anything. But, it does provide bench mark reference to work from. Overall, I am very happy in how my new system currently sounds. But, I do think that with some very minor changes, it could sound even better.
And you are absolutely right, in that I really should be investing in something like DEQX.
But, if I do start playing around with something like Clio, I know I will end up learning a lot in the process. This means that when I do finally break down and buy something like DEQX. I know that I will end up appreciating it all the more.
So, I have a choice here, I can take the blue pill and simply go back to life as before or I can take the red pill, buy Clio, and see just "how deep the rabbit hole goes."
Either way, I know I am going to have a lot of fun playing around with some of the greatest speakers in the world. And it comes as no surprise to anyone here that they all have JBL stamped on them.
Baron030 :)

[Ian Mackenzie]

Hello Ian

How is Sound Easy working out for you?? You can actually try different crossovers in real time from your schematics if I remember correctly. That certainly is a big advantage for someone doing DIY speakers.

Rob:)

At this early stage I am modelling existing systems like the 43XX series.The progam is written for very advanced users so it not for someone dabbling in this area. However there is an excellent help guide on Cd that arrived yesterday which spells out an A-Z of what to do.

Depending on the type of card and available horsepower it will create a digital filters and simulate a holiday on Venus!. (Recall..Recall) I have not done that yet. I will probably use Firewire external card setup if I go down the route.

[Ian Mackenzie]

Hi Ian
So, I have a choice here, I can take the blue pill and simply go back to life as before or I can take the red pill, buy Clio, and see just "how deep the rabbit hole goes."
Either way, I know I am going to have a lot of fun playing around with some of the greatest speakers in the world. And it comes as no surprise to anyone here that they all have JBL stamped on them.
Baron030 :)

The red pill and the blue pill is a bit on an in joke around here. Historically I mean.

The notion of doing accurate measurements is a deep subject and your wife will nag you to come out of the cellar and mow the front lawn once in a while. each to his own.

Where are you? If this is a one off even you might be able to con someone into coming over and helping out.

Talk to The Widget about DEQX. I think it has a fairly good RTA and eq section. Ask about 9800 horn clones while you are at it and JBL Be drivers.

[moldyoldy]

...So, I have a choice here, I can take the blue pill and simply go back to life as before or I can take the red pill, buy Clio, and see just "how deep the rabbit hole goes."
:applaud:

"One pill makes you larger
And one pill makes you small
And the ones that mother gives you
Don't do anything at all"

[Ian Mackenzie]

I agreeg doing nothing is the least expensive and perhaps least painful option. But we Lansing Nuts love to play.

I have a taken a number of Red Pills recently. :D

The more you have the more you want.:blink:

[Robh3606]

I was thinking of the Matrix myself. Although Go ask Alice is a great tune.

Rob:)

[moldyoldy]

I was thinking of the Matrix myself. Although Go ask Alice is a great tune.

Rob:)

It's "White Rabbit" Rob. :p

I always flash to the passage in "Fear and Loathing..." where the wakked out atty is in the tub of green Vegas hotel water, with a Bowie knife and a portable cassette player...asks HT to plug in the player, put on White Rabbit at full volume, then throw it in the tub with him when it peaks and the rabbit loses his head. HT obliges, cranks it up, the attys eyes roll back in his head and he's twitchin'...waiting...when the song peaks, HT fastballs a grapefruit into the tub and sets the player down, while the atty melts down... I can just see it.

[Robh3606]

It's "White Rabbit" Rob. :p

Thanks

I always forget. That song ends up in the strangest places. It's a hoot. It's Platoon for me looking back up the gun barrel at Sgt Elias if that is exactly what's playing then. That image always comes to mind.


Rob:)

[frequenZ]

Both are good, in my opinon. But since I had to pick one, I'd go for the Clio Lite.


____________
paolo
McIntosh MA2275 Integrated Amplifier (http://www.who-sells-it.com/cy/mcintosh-laboratory-inc-1500/ma2275-integrated-amplifier-5972.html) - MA2275 Integrated Amplifier Catalog by McIntosh Laboratory, Inc.

[Baron030]

Well, after much deliberation, I have finally taken the red pill.
The Clio lite software and its related hardware arrived today.
And soon I will be finding just how deep the rabbit hole really is.
This should be fun...