Looky What I just got - Those Darned L200 Cabs (from Aberdeen) [Archive]

hjames

03-03-2007, 05:19 PM

Yes! After a Craigslist sale that slipped away, an ebay Auction that was cancelled and another auction (and the kindness of BigYank and BMWCCA not bidding them out of my lowly budget - thanks guys!!), I actually won these darned big 'ol boxes. At 9:30 today Emma and I headed up past DC and Bal'mer and almost to Delaware - to the quiet town of Aberdeen. The guy is quite the JBL fan - wants to try one of everything ... what a nice goal! These are big for his home, and kinda pricey to fill. No grills, no components, no crossovers - just cabinets.

One box had seen some rough service, but both are generally in good shape, and well worth the minimal fee I won them for. Anyway - back down I95, through the Harbour tunnel and to Rockville to O'Brien's for the barbecue lunch I'd promised Emma for riding along (it was a gorgeous day, so it wasn't much of a struggle). Anyway - we got back here around 3, hauled the boxes into the house, and headed to the kitchen for a old Newcastle ... yumm - anyway - Teddy has already decided these boxes are his, that they are way cool - so sod off! But after a few pictures (he hates the flash) he ran off and let me work. (aka Teddy Roosevelt - see the Moustache?)

Once he was gone we carried them downstairs to the music room and set them in front of the TV cabinet - I pulled the homemade grill off the right 4320 cabinet and popped it into one of the L200s, I knew it wouldn't fit, but - just to check the color. Wow, thats a winner! Nothing like that blue JBL pro monitor cloth - time to order some more from Zilch!

Anyway - the L200s are the consumer version of the 4320 Studio systems I already have - so it should be a cinch to move the woofer and horn right in. But - I'd upgraded the 4320s to 3ways (pseudo 4333s sort of) and - I may want to keep the boxes original and not bore big holes for 2405 slot tweeters and the extra L-pad.

So - what I may do is just put a dual jack plate on the back of these where the old JBL crossover went, so I can access the Woofer or 2420 horn directly, and put the crossover and 2405 slot in those upper boxes where I already have 2123s for a future upgrade to 4 way performance. If I do it that way I don't have to disturb the woofer/horn combo in the L200s to try other upgrades - upgrade the crossover to 4 way, bi-amp the system, wut-evah ...

Anyway - thats the plan - I need to get some MinWax wood Hardener to fill the voids where the one cabinet has a cracked area on the back right side, and probably need some cork so I can seal the 2215 woofer to the baffleboard when I move the parts. I'll also have bronze glass cut to protects the tops like I did for the B-380 - its a real nice look and as long as the top veneer is so nice, why not?

So far, the cabinets are responding real well to the Howards Feed-n-wax. Thanks Guys for the tip on that stuff - it really work great! I popped the little side screens out while I oiled down the cabinets (3 out of 4, 1 is glued in REAL HARD, but they are in real fine shape.

More info when I get time - but - at least the boxes are here.

Before I got them, the thread started over here - http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=14727

kingjames

03-03-2007, 05:22 PM

Look Nice Heather!:applaud:

mech986

03-03-2007, 05:55 PM

Very Nice!! Those roadtrips looking for vintage JBL's are fun, especially when you get them home and all the possibilities start to swirl in your head!

Keep us posted on your progress and a couple more pics after the Howard's F&W really takes hold.

Bart

BMWCCA

03-03-2007, 06:04 PM

bigyank

03-03-2007, 06:21 PM

all right! Remember now if you decide to not pursue a project with these you MUST let me know!:applaud:

Yank

Zilch

03-03-2007, 06:24 PM

Very nice, Heather!

Your L200 "kit" is just about together.... ;)

Fred Sanford

03-03-2007, 07:41 PM

If you're gonna dream, you might as well be dreaming BIG, right? Hope it all comes together for you, sounds like the planning part is funner every day.

je

On the jukebox right now is Paco de Lucia's album 'Fuente y Caudal', through some monitors I'm cobbling together from Cerwin Vega cabinets, JBL E120s and some Selenium DT150 tweets. Anybody with some wedge monitor cabs that are destined for the dustbin, give me a shout...these boxes I've got are crrraaaap.

hjames

03-03-2007, 08:31 PM

In the auction photos it looked like one front corner would need some glue and a clamp. Is it better in person? No big deal? They look darn nice! Always liked that style. Best to let the kitty get used to them before the new grilles go in! My boys love the old nylon grilles on the C37s...for the brief moment they get to touch them before I scream at them and scare them away. I think I might look for a single Model 19 to use as a scratching post. Or maybe a 901. :applaud:

Well neither cat has front claws - the previous owner had them pulled (rescue cats) so he's no threat to grills or woofer, thank goodness.

And yes - the one cabinet has been dropped or something - top left front is kind of ... well that side with the nice molding is kind of cracked along the baffleboard - but the veneer is not broken. I've got some Minwax Wood Restorer - its a resin based product with solvents - poor it into rotted wood and the solvents evaporate and leave the resin behind to bind the material together. I'm thinking I'll spread the side apart slightly, poor some of this product into the crack, then use wood clamps to hold it in place overnight. Supposed to cure in 4 hours. I think that ought to do better than JB weld or something similar.

There is some similar separation on the back edge of the sides of the same speaker, like the MDF has broken down and split (?). I can pour some of this into that crack tomorrow night and perhaps bond it together.
I'm not so worried about the look, tho the veneer is nearly perfect on most of the speaker. I don't want the sound to suffer compared to the 4320 boxes - the box has to be solid and not flex.

I told Emma I was doing this mainly for better looking cabinets in the TV room and she said "looks are fine, but I really like the way they sound now - you can put them back in the old cabinets if the sound isn't better, right?"

Ah - a woman for whom function is the important part ... she understands!! I'm not letting THIS one get away! he he he

The Minwax product: http://www.minwax.com/products/woodmaint/hardener.cfm

hjames

03-04-2007, 01:49 PM

running out of time to actually move the drivers in today, but I have gotten a lot of the prelim work done.

As I said, I think I'll just mount the 2215 woofs and 2420/2307/2308 driver/horns/lenses in the L200 cabs, and route cable to separate jacks on the back panel. So - the jacks are built and mounted at least.
HF on top, LF on bottom

Perhaps I can bore holes in the 2800 Cabinets to mount the 2405 slots one evening this week.
I've got a spare horn driver combo and a spare slot from my center channel experiments to help mock this up. (I figure it can't hurt to have working spares of these ancient, er vintage drivers!)
And that funky Mic on top? Courtesy of Seawolf! (Told ya it would go in a place of honour!)

BMWCCA

03-04-2007, 01:56 PM

No grass growing under your feet!
running out of time to actually move the drivers in today, but I have gotten a lot of the prelim work done.

hjames

03-04-2007, 05:17 PM

No grass growing under your feet!

Actually, I gave in and finished swapping my 2215 and horn/driver into the second cabinet as well - and carried the now amazingly lighter 4320 cabinets into the basement, stacked base to base. Of course now I have to make up a banana plug patch panel and assorted cables for all of this - he he he.
Build the crossovers in boxes like Ian did with his projects, then just jack in the drivers as needed.

SEAWOLF97

03-04-2007, 07:34 PM

And that funky Mic on top? Courtesy of Seawolf! (Told ya it would go in a place of honour!)

Glad it went to a safe place. I think its sort of rare and didnt want to see it get mashed up in "my warehouse".

hjames

03-07-2007, 08:04 AM

Yeah - my carpentry skills aren't what they should be for that kind of project. I'm guessing my low-tech DIY 4344s will have to be it for me.
It won't image the same - but two stacked boxes containing the appropriate drivers ... Now I just need the 4 way crossovers. I'll swap the 2215s for 2235s afterwards. ...sigh ... beer budgets!

Hello Heather

I am in the same boat. That's why I built my 4344's. I could get the drivers as cores and recone over time so it wasn't all in one shot. You also end up with a fresher driver set as well. Those boxes are not cheap no matter how you do it. He got a nice deal but he may have 4 recones in the 15's and 10's to bring them back to life. You can try foam on the 15's but the 10's with the Lansaloy?? May need compression driver diaphrams as well so another $1200+ with those in the mix.

Rob:)

hjames

03-07-2007, 08:25 AM

Well - that was my initial plan - Ian and Tom L had suggested I biamp the 4320 system. I got a Crown D75, that 200w/ch HK Citation 22, and a a JBL crossover. I got the XLR-to-Phono connectors and such. I even got a pair of blank crossover cards so I could populate them for 290/300Hz freq (to go under the midBass driver.

I got the HK Amp repaired, moved the media shelves out of the room and got the speakers back on the floor. That was just before Christmas - holidays took precedent for a bit

Then in Feb I just fell over that B-380 and the HK went to power that, so if I go that route I need another low end amp. But my receiver doesn't have preamp outs, so biamping will be more complex - I'll need to change out the receiver as well as changing the amps. Its on the plan, but - not quite as immediate.

heather if i may, consider going electronic with a custom passive between the hf/mf.my 300's always sounded better with dedicated lf amps and they are way more flexible

Fred Sanford

03-07-2007, 10:46 AM

There's a big ole Crown DC300A sitting here lonely, waiting for me to employ it somewhere- if you ever want to borrow it to see if one would work for you, just say the word. Picking up that Urei 6260 put it into "spare" status for the vocal mains. Actually, at this point, you could borrow the Crown or the Urei, either model would likely be available on the market and serve your purposes well.

I even have the just-in-case protection circuits as insurance for whatever speakers are hooked on to the Crown, but I need to mount them into some kind of project box.

je

hjames

03-07-2007, 11:28 AM

I appreciate all of that - but I am working this as much as possible right now. I'm still trying to decide whether to keep or return a LG-rebadged-as-JVC combi VCR/DVD recorder with dubbing capabilities, but dub DVDs don't play on my other DVD machine. If its not me, it needs to go back to Vann's (currently post 15 days but under 30 right now).

Oh - and UPS says there's a Zilch-kit on the way ... ?? (!) - Gotta prepare the way for that!!

Oh, I've been sick for 3 days, (it hit me just after the run to Aldebaran),
plus we have some minor traumas at home.

At least we didn't get significant snow today ... yet (6PM edit - its still snowing!)

Big fun, but until I retire there's not quite enough hours in the day right now
:applaud:

There's a big ole Crown DC300A sitting here lonely, waiting for me to employ it somewhere- if you ever want to borrow it to see if one would work for you, just say the word. Picking up that Urei 6260 put it into "spare" status for the vocal mains. Actually, at this point, you could borrow the Crown or the Urei, either model would likely be available on the market and serve your purposes well.

I even have the just-in-case protection circuits as insurance for whatever speakers are hooked on to the Crown, but I need to mount them into some kind of project box.

je

Fred Sanford

03-07-2007, 01:24 PM

Just keep it in mind for the future, don't hesitate to ask if you want a trial run. I've got projects out my ears as well, and some day soon I'll actually be employed again, and lose all this lovely spare time!

je

Titanium Dome

03-07-2007, 06:45 PM

some day soon I'll actually be employed again, and lose all this lovely spare time!

je

Brother, that's a heartache. :( Keep it at arm's length as long as you can.

Heather: I have a lot of admiration for your "can do" attitude. Keep up the good work.

hjames

03-07-2007, 08:22 PM

Heather: I have a lot of admiration for your "can do" attitude. Keep up the good work.

Thanks so much - but the DIY folks are my inspiration!
I never had a clue I could have this much fun using speakers like tinkertoys! :applaud:

Tonight I got the bronze glass for the speakertops (gotta protect those L200 tops, the top veneer is pretty good, actually).
After John Stewart I headed to the basement and bored 3 1/8 holes in the 2800 baffleboards and voila! Slotboxes!

I don't have a 4 way crossover yet, just the Giskard Equiv 3133 network, so the 2123s aren't connected, but its getting closer to the mythical 4344 "2 box clones".

2215, 2420/2307/2308, 2123, 2405 (for what its worth, I believe all except the 2123s are AlNiCo)

And that funny tweeter thing on the top left of the top box? Thats not tweeter!
Its a Zilch plug mounted from the inside so the wingnut is concealed - then hit with a shot of flatblack paint

sonofagun

03-12-2007, 01:03 PM

QUOTE: "And yes - the one cabinet has been dropped or something - top left front is kind of ... well that side with the nice molding is kind of cracked along the baffleboard - but the veneer is not broken. I've got some Minwax Wood Restorer - its a resin based product with solvents - poor it into rotted wood and the solvents evaporate and leave the resin behind to bind the material together. I'm thinking I'll spread the side apart slightly, poor some of this product into the crack, then use wood clamps to hold it in place overnight. Supposed to cure in 4 hours. I think that ought to do better than JB weld or something similar.

There is some similar separation on the back edge of the sides of the same speaker, like the MDF has broken down and split (?)" UNQUOTE

Have a theory as to causality factor(s): particleboard may have absorbed moisture from storage in high moisture area (basement, maybe?) and then was exposed to freezing temperatures (water expands when it freezes).
Anyone else go along with this theory?

Wondering if this may contribute spurious resonances (aka buzzing) to system? :blink:

grumpy

03-12-2007, 01:11 PM

Exposed particle board will swell up like a sponge and deteriorate if left wet or damp.
Freezing might make things worse, but it isn't necessary for significant damage to occur.
-grumpy

hjames

03-12-2007, 01:16 PM

Well, none that I can hear. BMWCCA was over here yesterday getting the 4320 boxes and I played "Wayfaring Stranger" - some cello music with deep low tones - no extraneous sounds. I part of Steely Dan Aja - no odd sounds. Played Nine Horses- (David Sylvian) - The Banality of Evil - punchy bass, no odd noises. We've been playing them a LOT since they got here - good sounds all around - even on that ECM Jazz stuff - nice and clean.

But - I do like the theory! Ice damage ...

QUOTE: "And yes - the one cabinet has been dropped or something - top left front is kind of ... well that side with the nice molding is kind of cracked along the baffleboard - but the veneer is not broken. I've got some Minwax Wood Restorer - its a resin based product with solvents - poor it into rotted wood and the solvents evaporate and leave the resin behind to bind the material together. I'm thinking I'll spread the side apart slightly, poor some of this product into the crack, then use wood clamps to hold it in place overnight. Supposed to cure in 4 hours. I think that ought to do better than JB weld or something similar.

There is some similar separation on the back edge of the sides of the same speaker, like the MDF has broken down and split (?)" UNQUOTE

Have a theory as to causality factor(s): particleboard may have absorbed moisture from storage in high moisture area (basement, maybe?) and then was exposed to freezing temperatures (water expands when it freezes).
Anyone else go along with this theory?

Wondering if this may contribute spurious resonances (aka buzzing) to system? :blink:

hjames

03-12-2007, 03:21 PM

Placeholder -

Zilch

03-12-2007, 03:41 PM

Zilch makes CHAOS of Heather's listening room.

Heh, heh.

[She'll be up kinda late tonight.... :D ]

SEAWOLF97

03-12-2007, 03:47 PM

Big fun, but until I retire there's not quite enough hours in the day right now
:applaud:

Heather , even after you retire ...there ain't enough hours in the day.........:)

Fred Sanford

03-12-2007, 04:53 PM

Same T-Amp my buddy gave me.

je

hjames

03-12-2007, 05:38 PM

Zilch makes CHAOS of Heather's listening room.

Heh, heh.

[She'll be up kinda late tonight.... :D ]

Nah - can't be up too late - gotta watch 24 in a half hour!

Besides - here's my Rack Chaos - in Teak!

hjames

03-12-2007, 07:28 PM

I got sound to the Active crossover from CDR (HK changer) and CD (the "airtunes" signal 11,000 songs shuffling on my Mac upstairs) - but I couldn't get any sound from Cable box/TV - and Monday night is the guilty pleasure of "24" - so we watched with the center audio and rear speakers only working. I tried other output jacks and still only had audio with those few sources.

After 24, I finally figured out the problem.

In my JVC receiver I have 3 digital optical inputs - CATV, my VCR/DVD recorder, and my standalone DVD player. Those feeds generate multichannel/surround for Digital Dolby or DTS signal - and work quite well.

Unfortunately, when I tap the Tape out RCA jacks to feed the crosover, it doesn't convert digital to analog - so I only get audio from analog sources!

Which does work for CDs and FM and such, but I didn't get a chance to give it a good shakedown(!). That'll have to wait 'til tomorrow after work.

The M552 has a tunable crossover point - from my very brief tests it sounds best somewhere around 1200-1500Hz or so. I'm feeding low out to the Citation 22 in Stereo Mode - 200w/ch to the 2215 woofers. Feeding high out through the T-amp to the 2435. Levels are pretty critical. Before dinner I was trying different settings and turned the T-amp to 3/4 and hit a sweet spot with some Pat Metheny-American Garage playing. Sounded VERY nice. But another song might want different settings.

Of course, the real question is - what I would need to run this system with a passive crossover? I mean, its just a 2-way ... shouldn't take much - and an Lpad to help match levels.

Thanks again to Zilch for all this madness - I need a weekend tomorrow just to try all this out!

Zilch makes CHAOS of Heather's listening room.

Heh, heh.

[She'll be up kinda late tonight.... :D ]

Zilch

03-12-2007, 08:53 PM

I don't know how high the 2215/LE15A is good for, but you can hear the blend as you adjust the crossover frequency on the M552. This is easier to hear listening to a pink noise source, if you have a CD with that. Soon as I hear the horn coloration, that's the lowest usable crossover frequency.

At Zilchlab, it's LE14s and 2235s almost exclusively, and I strive to get the frequency as low as sounds good, which is 920 Hz with those horns here. The smaller PT-F version I'm running a little higher, 1 kHz.

Once that is set, vary the balance between LF and HF. The T-Amp volume control provides the coarse adjustment, then use the M552 HF gain controls to fine tune it. Tweak the frequency again after that, maybe, to optimize.

Since you're driving with tape out, which is fixed, there's no master volume. Use the input gain controls on M552 for that, and L/R balance. Your LF amp is the baseline against which against which everything else is adjusted using this scheme.

The compensation filter should work nearly as well with passive crossovers; these experiments will tell you what frequency is optimum with your woofers. If you decide to go this way, you'll make the final determination with the horns mounted in the L200 cabinets. They'll sound a bit different, then. You've got big distance between the woofers and horns presently; they'll be significantly more coherent once mounted on the same baffle and close to the woofers.

Amps off first, on last, 'cause M552 doesn't turn on or off gracefully....

Robh3606

03-12-2007, 09:03 PM

hjames

03-13-2007, 05:30 AM

Hello Heather

If you really want to drive yourself nuts give the PTH1010/2435 combo a spin with the 2123's. You would need to run it as a 3 way but it may be worth it for you to try out. Two ways are nice but nothing does the lower midrange like one of those JBL 10" drivers. I run my active set-up with the same combo and once you dial it in, it's makes a really nice sounding system. Food for thought!!

Just have fun:bouncy:

Rob:)

Thanks for the tip. It sounds interesting - and I may be less inclined to go for that mythical 4 way sound now - but I think I need to swap the 2215s for 2235s before I do much more shuffling in the low end. That change looks like it would give me a lot more flexibility for crossover points and for absolute bottom frequency.

Either that, or it would shake the cabinets into wood chips!

hjames

03-13-2007, 06:45 PM

I figured what I needed to do late late last night, but it was too late and I had to wait for today to get back to it.

The basic hookup is:
VCR out from my receiver, runs to the inputs on the M552 Active crossover.
Low outs run to the HK Citation 22 in Stereo mode 200w/ch direct to the 2215 woofers.
Hi outputs run to the Sonic Impact T-amp 15w/ch - to the compensating network which goes to the 2435H compression drivers on the 100 degree horns.
Surprisingly, there is plenty of power with the T-amp on the horns, and effortless bass with the HK power amp on the bottom. I found out the woofers played better in the L200 boxes than they ever did in the 4320 boxes - perhaps because the boxes were on low wheeled "skids" and now they are directly on the floor, but the bass is improved even beyond that with this biamp setup.
I can't run DVD/movies due to my receiver's quirks, but I have listened to CDs, TV shows and "airtunes" fed from my Mac (11,000 songs in shuffle, not the Fred's system, but its not bad for 'umble folks with beer budgets).

The tweeters are very nice - wish my woofers could play higher (I can see someday I'll be swapping the 2215s for 2235s), but even with that compromise, the music is very joyful. And - its nice to work the HK amp a bit - I wasn't pushing it at all before when I used it bridged for the subwoofer system!
Now thats its working I'll have to give it a real workout tomorrow before Emma gets home (grin) - shake some dust out of the cabinets.

Are there compromises? Sure - we've gotten spoiled with having a remote control to run everything, effortless hitting mute when the phone rings, or a commercial comes on the TV while watching a show. This is a very hands on manual system - the payoff is the enhanced sound quality.

Now I want to try a passive crossover to get the two drivers working off a common amp - just to compare the sound.

Zilch makes CHAOS of Heather's listening room.

Heh, heh.

[She'll be up kinda late tonight.... :D ]

Zilch

03-13-2007, 07:47 PM

Your bass is better because your amp now has total control of those woofers. I noticed that immediately when switching to the biamp setup myself, even though I'm just using wimpy 40W per channel amps.

I admit to having an ulterior motive in sending you that system to try: I'm hoping that once you get it all dialed in and balanced, you and Emma will give it some weeks of critical listening, assuming you like it enough to do so, a primary reason being that women hear differently than men, high frequencies, particularly.

You're already experiencing the "ambience" of the 100° x 100° waveguides, no doubt. No "beaming" now; if it's all working correctly, you can hear and enjoy the full frequency spectrum from just about everywhere in the room, standing, sitting, or walking around. There's still an imaging "sweet spot," but it should be somewhat more diffuse than before.

Do you miss the slot? Are the highs smooth and "natural" sounding? Do you perceive any harshness? Are the mids better than the 2420s and exponential horns produced? I'm very interested in what you hear in the system, and of course, what you ultimately conclude.... :thmbsup:

hjames

03-14-2007, 03:01 AM

If I don't match the levels just right, the horns do pop out and the sound gets "shallow" - but otherwise it is very pleasant. I tried to run the crossover down to 800Hz, but it does sound a bit better crossed over at 1200 or so. I'll have to try more this evening - give you more specifics.

Emma says she although she hasn't listened to any of her specific favorite
music yet, she does notice and appreciate the difference compared to slots and expo horns.

Of course now I have to buy another 2235, steal the one from the B380, and try this again with them on the bottom.

Oh - and I'm going to be sending you $21.00 for a yard of Zilch cloth. Got enough left from the last round for one speaker but I really need to cover the grills frames I made - Phil got the other set with the 4320 cabinets (they didn't really fit the L200s anyway).

Thanks for the enlightenment, oh Zilch-master, educating us in the ways of sound.

Your bass is better because your amp now has total control of those woofers. I noticed that immediately when switching to the biamp setup myself, even though I'm just using wimpy 40W per channel amps.

I admit to having an ulterior motive in sending you that system to try: I'm hoping that once you get it all dialed in and balanced, you and Emma will give it some weeks of critical listening, assuming you like it enough to do so, a primary reason being that women hear differently than men, high frequencies, particularly.

You're already experiencing the "ambience" of the 100° x 100° waveguides, no doubt. No "beaming" now; if it's all working correctly, you can hear and enjoy the full frequency spectrum from just about everywhere in the room, standing, sitting, or walking around. There's still an imaging "sweet spot," but it should be somewhat more diffuse than before.

Do you miss the slot? Are the highs smooth and "natural" sounding? Do you perceive any harshness? Are the mids better than the 2420s and exponential horns produced? I'm very interested in what you hear in the system, and of course, what you ultimately conclude.... :thmbsup:

sourceoneaudio

03-14-2007, 03:25 AM

I figured what I needed to do late late last night, but it was too late and I had to wait for today to get back to it.

The basic hookup is:
VCR out from my receiver, runs to the inputs on the M552 Active crossover.
Low outs run to the HK Citation 22 in Stereo mode 200w/ch direct to the 2215 woofers.
Hi outputs run to the Sonic Impact T-amp 15w/ch - to the compensating network which goes to the 2435H compression drivers on the 100 degree horns.
woofers played better in the L200 boxes than they ever did in the 4320 boxes - perhaps because the boxes were on low wheeled "skids" and now they are directly on the floor, but the bass is improved even beyond that with this biamp setup.
I can't run DVD/movies due to my receiver's quirks, but I have listened to CDs, TV shows and "airtunes" fed from my Mac (11,000 songs in shuffle, not the Fred's system, but its not bad for 'umble folks with beer budgets).

Morning Heather,
Just a couple of tips for you. any time you raise a LF driver off of the ground no matter how high. ("woofers played better in the L200 boxes than they ever did in the 4320 boxes - perhaps because the boxes were on low wheeled "skids" and now they are directly on the floor, but the bass is improved even beyond that with this bi-amp setup.") you will loose bass response no matter how high off the ground so this move was a definite positive for you. Second as far as playback goes from your 11,000 song loaded in your mac, depending on the format used usually MP3 is the standard there is sufficient sound quality degradation because it is compressed/stepped on and it is unnatural. Usually losses noted will be in the high end and serious loss of clean bass.
I'm curious to one other thing you mention about your woofers. They don't play loud enough. Are you looking for better/higher frequency response from the driver, or more output? (spl)

J/S-S1A :D

hjames

03-14-2007, 08:51 AM

I didn't say the woofers don't play loud enough - gosh - I hardly warm up that 200 watt/ch HK amp now - the 2215s are plenty loud. I did mention they play much better with the biAmp than they did through my old passive 3 way setup (3133 Equiv circuits). But thats been discussed many times before in these forums.

I mentioned swapping the 2215s for 2235s because of the improved frequency range of the newer 15 inch woofers (at least on paper). The 2235s are rated for lower and higher frequency than the 2215s - it sure sounded that way when I had the subwoofer in the system, you could hear the bottom open out when I powered it up, and it was a musically extended bottom, not just Boom box stuff.

Now - these are ratings not absolute truth ...
2215: 35-1200 cps - highest recommended crosspoint: 800
2235: 20-2000 cps - highest recommended crosspoint: 1000
and just for comparison - the stray 10" midBass drivers I have
2123: 80-6000 cps - highest recommended crosspoint 1000

I currently rip songs at the maximum 320kbps bitrate, which is a huge improvement over the itunes store default of 128 kbps. I do hear losses at the lowly 128 bitrate, but not at 320kbps. Of course, my ears aren't as young as they used to be, but when I really want to sit and appreciate music, I just pop a CD into the HK 5 disc changer and play that directly.
And AAC isn't MP3, tho I have both in my digital library.

Zilch

03-14-2007, 02:20 PM

Do 2234Hs play well a little higher? They're 2235H without the mass ring. Only used in 4435 monitors, but there's been plenty of discussion of them in the forums.

Rob or Giskard would likely know if they'd be a good alternative choice. Keep the B380 running for LFE, maybe.

I'd make 2234Hs outta 2225s reconed; installing the mass ring later would convert them to 2235Hs if it didn't work for me.

[Guess I could measure a couple and see. Maybe the curves are already posted here somewhere.... :dont-know ]

Of note: 2234H is the recommended replacement woofer for the original L200, which was crossed at 1200 Hz:

http://manuals.harman.com/JBL/HOM/Technical%20Sheet/L200A%20ts.pdf

hjames

03-14-2007, 02:47 PM

We did some more critical listening today after work. I played Hillary Stagg - Sweet Return - its new-agey harp music with guitars, irish whistles, heavy bass swells - and Emma noticed this before I did ...

When high pitched percussives plays, specifically triangles, (also those wind chime kind of things some drummers have hanging near them), you hear the attack as it is struck, but the shimmer afterwards isn't there. Its missing a kind of high frequency harmonic when the triangle (for instance) "rings" - its not quite the sizzle of the 2405s, but that shimmer is definately not there with the 2435 "flat horns".

But its a real subtle thing ... and otherwise its a very sweet listening system.

Do 2234Hs play well a little higher? They're 2235H without the mass ring. Only used in 4435 monitors, but there's been plenty of discussion of them in the forums.

Rob or Giskard would likely know if they'd be a good alternative choice. Keep the B380 running for LFE, maybe.

I'd make 2234Hs outta 2225s reconed; installing the mass ring later would convert them to 2235Hs if it didn't work for me.

[Guess I could measure a couple and see.... :dont-know ]

Fred Sanford

03-14-2007, 04:03 PM

When high pitched percussives plays, specifically triangles, (also those wind chime kind of things some drummers have hanging near them), you hear the attack as it is struck, but the shimmer afterwards isn't there. Its missing a kind of high frequency harmonic when the triangle (for instance) "rings" - its not quite the sizzle of the 2405s, but that shimmer is definately not there with the 2435 "flat horns".

That's something the 4333s have spoiled me on- the realism of well-recorded percussion and cymbals. I still like the dome tweeters I have (L110s and Cantons in particular), but haven't found a cone tweeter that sounds as accurate to me. Not saying they don't exist, I'm just saying that's were the cone tweeters I've been hearing have been disappointing me. One particular tune I've gone to a bunch lately for this is Seal's "Dreaming in Metaphors". Another great percussion & cymbals tune is Jan Garbarek's "Molde Canticle Pt. 4", with Manu Katche on drums and Nan Vasconcelos on percussion.

This thread is really making me want to get bi-amping the 4333s higher up the priority list.

je

Zilch

03-15-2007, 09:50 AM

hjames

03-15-2007, 10:27 AM

C'mon - the total cost of that "Sonic Impact T-amp
(based on Parts Express prices)
60% for the amp ...
40% for the power supply
Total cost is around $50 - What's naught to like?

BTW - check your PO box for an order for 1 yard of that dark blue cloth.
I've gotta cover the frames I made before Catastrophy strikes ...

Also watch your PO Box for a package from Amazon - a copy of that New Agey electro-harp CD is winging its way to you - gratis - - the intro to song 1 is impressive when the bass kicks in - or try halfway through track 1 with the triangles and wind chimes. Call it a test disc - worth hearing just for that porpoise.

Anyway - here is a second tangent - I was reading your comments on the 2404 in another thread and had a thought. I don't think it would hurt anything if I put the original sound system back together (not biamped) but fed the 3133 equiv passive from the receiver, but connect the 100 degree flathorn to the UHF terminals where the 2405 would normally connect.

I assume I would still use the compensating networks?

I haven't done this yet, but I thought I should ask before trying something like this.

Not sure I'm willing to buy "new-agey harp music" to track it down, but it may be that TOTL HF amp we're using there, too.... :p

Zilch

03-15-2007, 07:05 PM

For the money, it seems like some "shimmer" is a small compromise. The chipheads will likely have some good options to offer. Chip amps come with the endorsement of heavyweights; we just need the specifics.

The hookup you propose may work, though there may be too much attenuation and they won't play loud enough. Try it and see.

Yes, you need the compensation filters in line.

Thank you for the "test disc." I'll watch for it! :bouncy:

Chas

03-16-2007, 07:37 AM

Of note: 2234H is the recommended replacement woofer for the original L200, which was crossed at 1200 Hz:

Very interesting Zilch, I didn't know this. Thanks for the heads up.:)

Heather, it sounds like you're having fun, good luck with your various iterations.

hjames

03-16-2007, 09:00 AM

Are these the same compensating filters I am using - or do you have a stack of them - the connectors look pretty similar!

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=56559&postcount=180

The hookup you propose may work, though there may be too much attenuation and they won't play loud enough. Try it and see.

Yes, you need the compensation filters in line.

Thank you for the "test disc." I'll watch for it! :bouncy:

Zilch

03-16-2007, 10:01 AM

Are these the same compensating filters I am using - or do you have a stack of them - the connectors look pretty similar!Those are the ones I started with a couple of years ago, now.

Here's the latest filters I sent you:

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=146690&postcount=43

Dunno about a "stack," but several:

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=149792&postcount=72

And here's performance of a bunch of eBay 2435HPLs using one:

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=147389&postcount=23

Zilch

03-16-2007, 10:30 AM

Very interesting Zilch, I didn't know this. Thanks for the heads up.:)Another option, seemingly a good one.

It strips away L200's boomy bass and opens the door for using H91/2307 in a more optimum range. Typically, that's pushed down to 800 Hz in L200 upgrades, and it does sound a bit "horny" down there.

I've been running PT waveguides ~1 kHz, but that's near the limits of both them and 2235H. Heather's reporting here she likes PTH-1010 better run at 1.2 kHz. The smaller "F" versions certainly like a little higher, and LE14H-3's been working nicely at that frequency. This is all with 24 dB/octave active crossovers.

I haven't found the engineering specs for the 2234H if they're posted in these forums, but there are several suggestions by those who know that they'll play higher than 2235H, at some sacrifice of low-end extension, but with more "punchy" bass.

Guess I'll load up some 2234Hs and see how that combination sounds. Not sure exactly where to tune them, tho.

[Ah, well. Research! :thmbsup: ]

grumpy

03-16-2007, 04:55 PM

did 45deg offset plots, but I won't clutter here. Think I'd stop fooling
with either of these drivers much above 1KHz. I didn't spend a lot of
time trying to optimize mic position to make the plots look "better".

Exponential swept sine using mac/FuzzMeasure.

org/grn is nearfield (~2" from cone and offset from cap ~1")
red/blu is on-axis, ~20" from cab face.

-grumpy

Zilch

03-16-2007, 05:51 PM

Thank you, Grumpy.

Well, they certainly go poopy above 1 kHz.

[This would be a preliminarily qualified technical synthesis of measurement results, subject to peer review.... ;) ]

hjames

03-16-2007, 06:23 PM

Thanks for the charts AND the info guys ... weird, thats not what I expected - the JBL brochure on the 2235H shows it doing much better than that - thats why I was interested in it over the 2215.
I guess the spec-sheets don't tell the whole story ... sigh!

Link to 2215 at JBL Pro Archives (http://www.jblpro.com/pub/obsolete/2215.pdf)

Link to 2235H at JBL Pro Archives (http://www.jblpro.com/pages/components/2235h.htm)

Thank you, Grumpy.

Well, they certainly go poopy above 1 kHz.

[This would be a qualified technical synthesis of the results.... ;) ]

Zilch

03-16-2007, 06:36 PM

Factory curves are done under somewhat different conditions, typically.

The 2235H spec. sheet is in the forum library:

http://www.lansingheritage.org/images/jbl/specs/pro-comp/2235/page2.jpg

Looks like they just stopped the 2215 at 1.2 kHz:

http://www.lansingheritage.org/images/jbl/specs/pro-comp/2215/page2.jpg

I can dig out a measurable LE15A. Maybe I'll do ground plane and in-box on all three here, as well. Been wanting to try that....

Robh3606

03-16-2007, 06:50 PM

I don't see the mystery here. How did JBL use the 2215 and 2234/35??? You have all you need looking at the applications JBL used them in. That should always be the starting point.

The 2234 is a 2235 with less mass. That gives you 3dB more output and a higher FS. That doesn't meant it will do better higher. It's the same exact cone.

Rob:)

hjames

03-17-2007, 02:07 PM

I tried going back to my passives system, but substituting the 2435 instead of the 2405 slot tweeters - you're right - too much attentuation. But Emma and I agree that we missed the bass push of the biamp setup.

This afternoon I ran new lines to the left and right front corners, put the biamp system back together - but tried a few things differently.

I did get a tape out feed to run the Active crossover ...
Low out to the HK and to the 2215s
Hi out to the T-amp and then to my passive crossover
LO there to the 2123
MF there to the 2420/horns
HF there to the 2405 slots

I tried varying the xover freq of the active crossover - I know for a 4345 it would cross at 290 - I'm set on about 400cps with these drivers.

Got to run - but I'll try more when I get back ...

One last comment - the receiver apparently taps the preamp out before the optical inputs for the digital sources (DVD, CATV) so I don't get front Left/Right for those sources - which is a darned shame. I wonder if the newer HK receivers with optical inputs have the same problem ...?

For the money, it seems like some "shimmer" is a small compromise. The chipheads will likely have some good options to offer. Chip amps come with the endorsement of heavyweights; we just need the specifics.

The hookup you propose may work, though there may be too much attenuation and they won't play loud enough. Try it and see.

Yes, you need the compensation filters in line.

Thank you for the "test disc." I'll watch for it! :bouncy:

Zilch

03-17-2007, 02:56 PM

I don't see the mystery here. How did JBL use the 2215 and 2234/35??? You have all you need looking at the applications JBL used them in. That should always be the starting point.Doing that, actually.

Well, more "wishful thinking" than mystery, perhaps, but JBL spec'd 2234H as replacement driver for the 1200 Hz L200, and not for the "boom" or impedance of 2216, I wouldn't think. Perhaps just for the efficiency? It's the only place JBL used 2234H other than 4435 that I'm aware of.

I'm hoping it'll play better up there than 2235H. There's suggestions elsewhere in these forums that it will. The cone mass is less, which might translate to a bit more extension, but Grumpy's measurements certainly don't find it. I'll look at the E140/2235H frankenwoofers, too. More flux may provide more extension....

Zilch

03-17-2007, 03:11 PM

I tried varying the xover freq of the active crossover - I know for a 4345 it would cross at 290 - I'm set on about 400cps with these drivers.First mark below 400 looks to be 300 Hz. 200 would be the first mark above 180, then....

grumpy

03-17-2007, 03:55 PM

... but Grumpy's measurements certainly don't find it.
Just to add to the confusion, I had made some earlier measurements
(of a 2234H in the 4430 cabinet)
using a 1m on-axis setup and the 4430/4435 cards in place in a 5235...
This setup ran flat (more or less) to about 1.3KHz before rolling off,
so I wouldn't write the 2234 off as being unusable above 1KHz, just that
there may be some compromises and some required EQ. (graph attached)

Please don't take any of my "hobbyist" plots as being reference material,
but perhaps useful for comparison. I'm still learning how to properly use
and interpret the results from this equipment. Best regards, -grumpy

Robh3606

03-17-2007, 07:10 PM

Hello Zilch

Yes your correct but it is not optimal. It is "Use as a last resort".
It will work. There is no reason with a clean slate to be going in that direction. We know a 2234 or 2235 will work up to 1k. Beyond that we are pushing them. They are better yet crossed over lower at 800Hz or at 300Hz like a 4344. Well let's see what Heather finds as she experiments.

Rob:)

Zilch

03-17-2007, 09:03 PM

Heh.

Looks like I been on a CRUSADE.

[Uncle Paul started it. There's the proof.... :p ]

hjames

03-18-2007, 09:29 AM

First mark below 400 looks to be 300 Hz. 200 would be the first mark above 180, then....

Right - thats what I'd figured too.
I've been listening to a variety of music now - currently Shooglenifty - sort of modern Celtic hip-hop very cool thumpy bass stuff with bagpipes and ... well very neat.
But the bass is killing us ... its just way too much hammering bass.
I tried turning the Input level for the 552 to minimum, and turning the Lo Out down as well - but even so - BOOM bitty Boom.
I think I need to attenuate the input to the HK Citation!

Current config:

Tape out from JVC receiver --> JBL M552 active crossover -->
Lo out --> HK Citation 22 200w/ch --> 2215 woofers (in L200 cabinet)
Hi Out --> Sonic Impact Tamp --> Giskard 3133 Equiv -->

LF --> 2123 midbass in upper cabinet
MF --> 2420/horn/lens combo in L200 cabinet
HF --> 2405 slots in upper cabinet

I've been varying the active crosspoint from all the way down to 180cps to about 800cps - I did that just to hear what the differences were.
Best results are between 300-400Hz .

Emma's headed out for the day so I should be able to do some more critical listening from 1PM to around 6 or so.

Zilch

03-18-2007, 10:13 AM

But the bass is killing us ... its just way too much hammering bass.No gain controls on the Citation? Just crank 'em down if they're there. No rule says they hafta be set at 0 dB attenuation....

hjames

03-18-2007, 10:47 AM

No gain controls on the Citation? Just crank 'em down if they're there. No rule says they hafta be set at 0 dB attenuation....

Hmm - wish the Citation HAD controls - its just a gainamp - no controls

witness the composite shot below - seems the 552 is the only controls in the system right now - and its cranked WAY down.
Pix courtesy Emma's camera - she borrowed mine today(!)

Robh3606

03-18-2007, 11:03 AM

Hello Heather

You don't have Preamp out jacks??

Rob:)

hjames

03-18-2007, 11:28 AM

Hello Heather

You don't have Preamp out jacks??

Rob:)

Not on that unit - its been a trusty servant - but its 7 years old or so now.
So I'm looking into some of the HK receivers - they sound interesting, have optical switching (like the JVC does) but apparently they have preamp outputs for all 5 (7.1?) channels so you can substitute higher powered amps at will.

This is the 2nd JVC receiver I've had. I got the first one at CircuitCity chain and had extended warrrantee - with the caveat that if they couldn't fix a problem after 3 attempts they'd replace the unit. Well, at 4 1/2 years the DTS circuits failed and they couldn't fix it, so I got full value in trade - and got this model. That was nearly 7 years ago. Why JVC initially?
Originally I had their cassette deck, CD player and VCR and they connected together with a mini-phone cable that shared function data between them. Put in a CD and the receiver would switch to CD mode and whatever settings you had last time you played a CD. When I added DVD that also had similar functionality. Put in a DVD and it would switch to digital inputs and 5.1 mode. Very nice smart unit at the time.

But no preamp out! - what to do, what - to - do ... cheap upgrade!

EDIT - 9PM - I won the auction from Harman Direct for a model HK AVR 335 7.1 receiver - it looks like the minimum I would need to have optical switching and full access to preamp out signals. Hopefully Harman will ship that out in the next week and I can get that into place before the end of the month. Its a 2ch/5.1/7.1 receiver with 55w/ch in surround mode. My rear speakers are the L20Ts, so they shouldn't need huge gobs of power - 55 watts ought to be enough for the rears (and side channels if I want).
The biggie is I can use the front & Sub Preamp outs with discrete amps for the main speakers (or feed an active crossover & biamp the mains).

I should have a JBL M552 active crossover arriving soon as well. (thanks to Zilch for lending me all his gear for a while - the 552 seemed like a real handy tool to have around!) - so I can try biamping again when I have the new gear in place.

hjames

03-25-2007, 09:54 AM

Update:
Got the L20T speakers - soaked them with feed'nwax and hung them in the rear of the room instead of the G100s we previously used as rear surrounds.

Got the JBL M552 active crossover

Wired banana connectors on all speaker lines at the speaker ends (and the front 3133 crossover) so I can change things around quickly.

The HK Citation 22 uses oversize weird connectors so I've just got twisted copper at there and at the (JVC) receiver.

The HK AVR 335 is due tomorrow - and I expect it will take a while to get that into place and stable ...

I may have time for more biAmp fun by end of the week.

Zilch

03-25-2007, 11:27 AM

That empty floor/wall space would last all of 10 minutes here.

[Maybe 5, only.... :p ]

hjames

03-25-2007, 12:12 PM

That empty floor/wall space would last all of 10 minutes here.

[Maybe 5, only.... :p ]

Zilch - what empty wall space?

Immediately out of view at the left corner is the door into the basement/laundry room - just slightly left of. that are the stairs up to the living room. Can't block that.

immediately out of view at the right corner is the door to the patio and outdoors. Can't block that.

Immediately dead ahead (behind the plaid entertainment couch) is the kitchen (and the beer, scotch, etc!) CAN'T block THAT!

If I put any more pictures on the wall the JBLs will shake them down.
My only other plans for the room is to trash that blue rug and Pergo the
floor (cement slab - a bit cool in winter - wood covering would help) - and widen the entrance to the kitchen - maybe an arch over the opening.

The equipment rack would roll a lot easier on a wood floor.

Ah well - got more yard work to do today - I'm headed back outdoors - time to muck out the pond for spring - the birdies are callin' and want a bath.
Talk to you later.

Titanium Dome

03-25-2007, 03:46 PM

Wow, that first picture really does make it look like there's endless space in there. The next two pictures tell a totally different story. :spchless: What a difference!

Robh3606

03-25-2007, 03:58 PM

The next two pictures tell a totally different story. :spchless: What a difference!

Yeah isn't that amazing how different rooms can look from a different point of view!

Rob:)

hjames

03-25-2007, 04:37 PM

So - now that you've seen the room -
am I overspeakered yet, or do I need to add more?:applaud:

Its impressive with the sub and everything going ... woah!

that new HK AVR-335 receiver says it'll do 7.1 instead of the 5.1 we currently do ... that'd be like being inside a pair of headphones, yes?

Wow, that first picture really does make it look like there's endless space in there. The next two pictures tell a totally different story. :spchless: What a difference!

Fred Sanford

03-25-2007, 05:20 PM

Do you get an audible slapback from those rear walls? Might it be worth considering something to soften them, tapestry or something to break them up? If it's not an issue, I think you're probably fine.

Who am I kidding? Go get more.

je

jim campbell

03-25-2007, 05:32 PM

im getting more discriminating and to me one really good set trumps multiple sets.(even though i have 4sets not counting the computer)when music becomes too accessible or frequent it can easily become wallpaper and i like it to be an event.that being said it is nice to have a back up plan.it appears that heather is building the set up very near the one that i have been kicking around in my head for a long time.i kind of thought of something similar to 4343 4350 components in cabinets ala gordon from atlantas avatar

hjames

03-26-2007, 07:18 PM

Hello Heather

You don't have Preamp out jacks??

Rob:)

I do now!
The refurbed HK AVR 335 from HarmanDirect arrived today - got it in the rack and have most of the sources connected. I'm getting familar with all of its settings and options. I'm just running it in 5.1 mode (max) for DVD and TV mode; 2 channel stereo for CDs and Airtunes.
In a couple days I can tie the Zilch-gear in again and hear what it sounds like with better sourcing.

hjames

03-29-2007, 03:06 AM

Did a quick spray adhesive job on the grill frames I made last night just to cover up all the speaker hardware - That dark Pro monitor blue doesn't look bad on those L200 boxes! Thank you for the quick shipping, Zilch!

Edit: Right speaker image updated via prompt from Zilch! Noshade for you!

SEAWOLF97

03-29-2007, 05:54 AM

lookin good !!!! can I come by for a demo ?

SEAWOLF97

03-29-2007, 06:03 AM

im getting more discriminating and to me one really good set trumps multiple sets.(even though i have 4sets

Jim

I too have 4 complete rigs. But 3 of them (which wud be premire systems, in my friends homes) are superfluous next to the OHM system. It is so good that the other 3 just dont get much play.

I think that will happen to you too, once you get those 77k$ speakers home. The other sets wont be worth your "ear time".

Zilch

03-29-2007, 01:19 PM

:thmbsup:

[If I was there, I'd straighten the lampshade for you, fully appreciating there ARE priorities, of course.... ;) ]

hjames

03-29-2007, 01:50 PM

:thmbsup:

[If I was there, I'd straighten the lampshade for you, fully appreciating there ARE priorities, of course.... ;) ]

yeah - it was a 6Am rush job before I headed out the door - just to show you the fine corinthian speaker cloth! I noticed it when I cropped it, but was running late as it is ... That shade isn't really for that big globe IKEA lamp, but I put it there because it does cut the glare and softens the light when watching TV late at night. Its an interesting mood lamp - flip the switch one way and a set of white LEDs illuminate the globe, flip the other and it slowly cycles through the color spectrum.

Look below - Image updated, just for you ...

Amazing what the waked eye sees after early AM kafee

hjames

04-01-2007, 12:12 PM

No fools here - blame it on the Zilch audiophile training system!!
With the new receiver in place I worked through the 2435 horns and compensating networks, and the sound is quite fine. Impressive 2ways!

The HK AVR 335 receiver was a nice upgrade from my old JVC - 55w/ch (x7 channels!) is fine for rear & center, and with all channel preamp out ports, its got the possibility of expansion as needed (such as my use of biamping the front channels) and its all nicely integrated.
I can set stereo sources (like CD or turntable) to play stero, other sources can be set to play Dolby or DTS in 5.1 or even 7.1 if I get another pair of small speakers (but where do I PUT them in this room?) And if the phone rings I can hit mute on the remote and get it. Nice!

But last night I wanted to try something else. I fed left & right front preamp Out to the JBL 552 active crossover, connected the Low Out to the Citation 22
(wired in 200w/ch stereo mode) and fed that to the 2215 Woofers directly.
I connected the High Out to the Crown D75, and fed its output into the Giskard 3133 networks I built last summer. But - I tied the low out from the passives to the 2123 midbass drivers, the mids to the 2420/horn combos, and the highs to the 2405 slots in the small boxes on top.

I played around with the active crossover point, knowing that in the 4343s and 4345s they cross from the woofers to the midbass around 290/300Hz
(and knowing I have 2215s instead of 2231s or 2235s).

At 400Hz - bang! everything seems just right and I have very very nice sound. Bass is crisp and defined in very solid way - its not volume of bass, its the quality. The rest is good as well - tho maybe I should have a bit more power for the high split (2123/2420/2405 plus passives) - the vol control on the D-75 is at 3PM (max is about 5 1/2) instead of 12 o'clock.

Airtunes from the Mac upstairs (files @320kbps) via wireless network into the receiver sound great.
CDs sound great.
DVDs sounds great.
FM sounds like FM (!).
HDTV sounds great!

Volume control, mute and source switching all fine.

Gotta run and listen to more music now!

Thanks again, Zilch!!

Titanium Dome

04-01-2007, 02:25 PM

The receiver is looking good in the rack, and I think the AV set up has never looked tidier. Nice.

Now when can we all fly out to VA for a listen?

Robh3606

04-03-2007, 04:58 AM

At 400Hz - bang!

Don't get too hung up on the frequency. Those controls have about a 15% tolerance. So how's it going?? Still in hog heaven??

Rob:)

hjames

04-03-2007, 05:54 AM

Don't get too hung up on the frequency. Those controls have about a 15% tolerance. So how's it going?? Still in hog heaven??

Rob:)

real fine!

Sunday I met up with Fred Sanford - he dropped off a Pro-ject phono preamp to try out - and it works quite nice ... so I'm set for Vinyl again.

I could use another amp for the woofers in the L200 cabinets (JBL 6260 perhaps?) so I can put the Citation 22 back into subwoofer only duty, (currently not using the B380 sub) but otherwise its real sweet!
Listened to a bunch of music Sunday & Monday - watched Cracker (season 3 DVD) & 24 (Fox TV) last night and enjoyed them both.

At some point I'll need to snag one of those new-build 4343 passive CC networks from the Giskard/Reissen team - but I gather they are still in development, But Zilch and Ian and Tom L and all the other folks who said "go biAmp" were dead on the money - it really does get the best out of the drivers!

hjames

04-14-2007, 09:43 AM

Next stage (possibly) ... got a pair of 2312 (California Longhorns) horns from Steve Gonzales via ebay - arrived today all nicely packed and cushioned.

If I get time I'll pull out one of my cabinets out, pull it's 2215 woofer to have "room to move" (been listening to Mayall this morning) ... and see if I can fit this horn in. If memory serves, I have to mount the horn only to the front baffle, then slip the compression driver into place at the end and bolt it on.
Anyway - it'll take a while to find out for sure - but the gain should be a smoother transition between the LF and the Mid, and a "nicer" sound for the low end of the 2420 range ...

Hell, it may all be moot anyway - with Biamping for the 2215s, and the 2123s on the LF leads from the 3133 G equiv crossover, its a funky kludge now at best (waiting for word on availability of G's new 3145 equivalent networks) - but no matter what, having the horns for the 3143/44 system this will eventually become, its one more part of the solution, even if I can't use them now (they won't get any cheaper!).

Zilch

04-14-2007, 10:03 AM

hjames

04-29-2007, 07:05 AM

They would "Just fit" in the 4320 boxes that way, but I don't think it's going to happen with L200 mounting them the standard way, rear of front baffle.

However, if you mount them on the FRONT of the baffle, with spacer blocking if required, they'll go.... :thmbsup:

Yep - they are too long for the boxes - guess they'll go on the "spares" shelf for later projects ...
maybe if I get a set of 4340/41/43/44/45 boxes I can use them or sell them then ... ahh

Zilch

04-29-2007, 10:33 AM

Yep - they are too long for the boxes - guess they'll go on the "spares" shelf for later projects ...I've been trying to inspire someone to make the requisite opening in the rear of L200 cabinets and document the optimum size and location. There's a bunch of JBL and Altec cabinets which do that.

How "short" do you come up, I mean, would the driver hang out the back and have to be boxed as well, or would a simple external cover be enough?

'Cause that'd take a lot of the "Quasi-" outta "Quasi-L300...." ;)

hjames

04-29-2007, 10:51 AM

I've been trying to inspire someone to make the requisite opening in the rear of L200 cabinets and document the optimum size and location. There's a bunch of JBL and Altec cabinets which do that.

How "short" do you come up, I mean, would the driver hang out the back and have to be boxed as well, or would a simple external cover be enough?

'Cause that'd take a lot of the "Quasi-" outta "Quasi-L300...." ;)

Well - maybe ... but I'm currently running them as part of a 4-way system, not an L300 3-way. And I blame it all on your biAmp lessons!! :applaud:

2215, 2420, 2123, and 2405. Its biAmped at the woofer/MidBass split ... and I just won an auction for a JBL 6230 to run the high-split.

But - if things go as planned, I'll be putting the L200s up for sale - and they'll need to be intact for that to happen (and to help pay back that change) - so I'm not very inclined to cut into them right now ...

I'm looking to take a road trip in the next few weeks for some bigger boxes - more news when (and if) it happens.

But the hard part is over - got WAF for it ;) (as long as the sound is good)

Now back to packing up my old L36s to ship out west for Larry ...

4313B

04-29-2007, 10:54 AM

Next stage (possibly) ... got a pair of 2312 (California Longhorns) horns from Steve Gonzales via ebay - arrived today all nicely packed and cushioned.Last I heard that guy was looking at a couple of lawsuits. Bad, bad news that one.
(waiting for word on availability of G's new 3145 equivalent networks)I'm actually listening to them now and am really enjoying the results. Further evidence that these legacy transducers haven't outlived their usefullness by any stretch. Excellent for DVD playback.

And I blame it all on your biAmp lessons!! :applaud:How funny. :)

Zilch

04-29-2007, 11:06 AM

So - I'm not so inclined to cut into them right now....Folks get squeamish whenever I break out the SawZall here.... :D

How funny. :)I was TRYIN' to demonstrate the merits of two-way.

[It backfired.... :p ]

hjames

04-29-2007, 11:12 AM

I was TRYIN' to demonstrate the merits of two-way.

[It backfired.... :p ]

We enjoyed the 2-way ... it just seemed a bit lacking somehow compared to the 3 way we had gotten used to ... still can't quite put my finger on it exactly - a quality in the low-high transition maybe - plus a bit off at the top end ... subtle.
But a real pleasant speaker system none-the-less.

4313B

04-29-2007, 11:15 AM

it just seemed a bit lacking somehow compared to the 3 way we had gotten used to ... still can't quite put my finger on it exactlyIf you are used to the 2121/2122/2123 it's going to be pretty hard to wean yourself off it. And probably unnecessary to boot. Yeah... it's that good...

Zilch

04-29-2007, 11:21 AM

We enjoyed the 2-way ... it just seemed a bit lacking somehow compared to the 3 way we had gotten used to ... still can't quite put my finger on it exactly - a quality in the low-high transition maybe - plus a bit off at the top end ... subtle.
But a real pleasant speaker system none-the-less.I think LE15A was a major factor. Those aren't very capable at 1 kHz. Even 2235s are a compromise. (Love 'em tho. :yes:)

LE14H-1s or H-3s just get it much better.... :thmbsup:

4313B

04-29-2007, 11:22 AM

I gather that 3 way crossover is the right thing for all of that series 4340/41/43/45?

And its charge-coupled?There are actually three diffrerent versions currently. The first is for the 2122H, 2421/2425 and 2307/2308, and 2405. The second is for a TAD in place of the JBL 2421/2425 and the third is for a 1.5" exponential and the 435Be.

I do believe there is a pair of 2123H's on their way to me to also work up but that will be awhile.

I no longer build anything that isn't charge-coupled. Even my Tannoy DC's received charge coupled filters.

4313B

04-29-2007, 11:27 AM

LE14H-1s or H-3s just get it much better.... :thmbsup:Yeah... I agree... but they will never yield the same impact through the midbass and midrange that the venerable ten yields.

Regardless, my current favorite is a JBL 15-inch 2-way, by a long shot. The long and short of it is, there is a real good reason to keep something like a 4345 around and there is a real good reason to go with something like a K2-S5800 or Everest II. Honestly though, if you have to pick just one go with the Everest II - no contest. If you don't have to pick just one, keep a bunch of different ones around.

Robh3606

04-29-2007, 11:30 AM

I think LE15A was a major factor. Those aren't very capable at 1 kHz. Even 2235s are a compromise. (Love 'em tho. :yes:)

LE14H-1s or H-3s just get it much better.... :thmbsup:

Well I hope the diferential drive drivers are headed between the Le-14's and any horn driver combo you end up with. You really should try and drop a 10" into the mix. It's just another level of refinement that's very difficult to match short of Everest 2.

Rob:)

Zilch

04-29-2007, 11:36 AM

Tell me this, Giskard, please. I was reviewing an earlier thread on the sujbect just last night, and never quite got the answer:

If I recone LE14As with LE14H-1 kits,

A) Are they fully compatible?

B) Do I get H-1's flatter response and better HF extension?

Zilch

04-29-2007, 11:39 AM

Well I hope the diferential drive drivers are headed between the Le-14's and any horn driver combo you end up with. You really should try and drop a 10" into the mix. It's just another level of refinement that's very difficult to match short of Everest 2.DRAT!

I'm BUSTED!! :banghead:

:p

4313B

04-29-2007, 11:40 AM

I know this doesn't answer your question but I wouldn't waste my time with an LE14A at this point, sorry.
The LE14H SFG assembly is just a better assembly.

4313B

04-29-2007, 11:44 AM

DRAT!

I'm BUSTED!! :banghead:

:p
Well... I suspected as much. I would suggest you not waste your time on anything but bi-amp only between the fourteen and the ten.

I went with the twelve myself even though I've never been a JBL twelve fan per se. The 1200FE is a really nice transducer and it works really well between a W1500H and compression top end. The fourteen and the ten should also work really well.

Zilch

04-29-2007, 11:52 AM

Thanks, Giskard.

I'll probably be askin' for some assistance once I explore these a bit.... :yes:

Robh3606

04-29-2007, 12:30 PM

Hello Zilch

Which 10's did you get?? The ones used in the Hercules center channel??

Rob:bouncy:

Zilch

04-29-2007, 01:09 PM

Which 10's did you get?? The ones used in the Hercules center channel??MAY bee. ;)

Or plain ol' Pro 2251J. It gets kinda expensive to try many alternatives in this....

hjames

05-09-2007, 07:17 AM

The journey reboots!
I just bought a set of JBL 4341 monitors from a recording studio in Pennsylvania. These historical Greg Timbers designed JBL 4-ways will replace the hybrid 4 ways I was building in two cabinets (L-200s on the bottom, "slot-boxes with 2405/2123s in upper boxes).

Follow the audio path here - http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=16263

This thread can now be closed ... (extraneous stuff removed)

hjames

07-22-2007, 06:00 PM

Just when I thought it was safe to close the thread - had put the L200s up for sale and everything and the thread continues ... July 22, 2007!!

I set the L200s up in our living room - its a long room like the TV room but has a wood floor, cathedral ceiling and skylights. Took new pictures and had them posted to Craig's List DC - had 3 potential buyers - and the one who offered $50 over my price last night made a date to come check them out and pick them up today (Sunday) at 3PM. I hooked up my old 110w/ch JVC receiver and a CD player to demo them. Sounded real nice in the room, even in 2-way mode 2215s, le85s and 3110 crossovers. Picked out a couple CDs for demoing them - Boz Scaggs Dig, Geogi Fedora (awesome clarinet & Klezmer on the Delos label), Aja, of course, and a few other things. Had them playing today while we were doing house cleaning, and darned if we didn't fall in love with them in this new space all over again. We'd really never played music in that space and with the high ceiling, the sound really opens up nicely.

Well, at least we talk easily - Emma said she really liked those speakers in that room and didn't want to sell them - she asked me to call Yong (the would be buyer - who was already on the way here!) and tell him they were off the market, and that we decided they weren't for sale. She was right - if we sold them, what would we get that would replace them with such a great sound. Besides, we knew what condition all the parts were in - we knew what we had. I had no idea she'd accept two big sets of speakers in the house. The money would've been nice, but what the heck.
Ahhhh - who knew?

The journey reboots!

Fred Sanford

07-23-2007, 04:53 AM

;)

je

p.s. :applaud:

hjames

07-29-2007, 12:51 PM

So, all week long I've been thinkin' - if we are gonna keep the L-200s anyway - and considering I have all these spare parts gathering dust, just laying around from my DIY 4-way project (a pair of 2405 slots plus the Giskard-Equivalent 3133 networks I built last year), I may as well bit the bullet, bore the holes, and turn these into 3 ways ... what have we got to loose??

So - on a rainy sunday afternoon ... Voila!

Not sure what to call them - its a sorta bastard system with the 4320 components (2215 + 2420/2307/2308) in the "pretty" L-200 cabinets, with slots. Not quite L300s or 4333s (wrong woofer), but they really do sound nice. Emma approves (played Aja and was quite happy!)

The next step will be ...
couple days ago on ebay I won a Yamaha CR-2020 (analog) receiver to run the system. I bought a CR-400 in '76 when I got my L36s - sounded real nice didn't have enough power. The CR-2020 is 100w/ch stereo and will replace the old JVC surround currently running the L200 3ways in the Living room (it used to run my main system but was was cast off that when I biAmped that and put the Harman-Kardon in place.

Storm

07-29-2007, 01:11 PM

Wow, those look geat!

Congrats on the woodworking skills!

Glad you are keeping them.

;)

-Storm.

Zilch

07-29-2007, 03:54 PM

Well, they're semi-quasi-L300s for now, in my view.... :p

hjames

08-02-2007, 04:12 AM

Next step - I'm in a holding pattern!
I had been using my old 110w/ch JVC surround receiver in the living room for the quasi-L300s, but when I biAmped them in the spring and replaced it with the JBL amps I knew using it now was a temporary measure.

I'm a fan of the old Yamaha gear. So - I bid on and won a pristine Yamaha CR-2020 receiver. These were really nice units with an honest 100w/ch, low s/n, huge transformers and discrete circuits. Some of the really good gear from the mid-70s before everything went to black plastic faceplates. See http://www.thevintageknob.org/YAMAHA/CR2020/CR2020.html
Anyway, I was really anticipating this - so when it arrived yesterday and I opened the VERY HEAVY large box - freaking wadded newspaper and bubble-pack! Every corner on the unit was crushed, the record out selector shaft was sheared loose, but worst - it only works on the right channel now. (and it sounds REALLY nice on the one channel - effortless!)

I sent pictures immediately and she's crediting my payment while I pack it properly for a return shipment on Saturday, but, what a darned shame ... what a waste of good gear.

I'll have to find another ... and send them pix of what good packing is BEFORE they ship!

Ah well, off to Home Despot for some 1" pink foam!

JBLRaiser

08-02-2007, 04:43 AM

johnaec

08-02-2007, 05:41 AM

Double boxing with strong support is a must. :(I've said it before - a UPS clerk actually told me that shipments must be packed to withstand a 3' dead drop at any angle, and pointed at the end of the conveyor, (about 3' off the floor), coming out of the warehouse that just dropped boxes on the floor! :( I assume most shipping companies are the same way. And the fact that many people think bubble wrap and newspaper are going to stop a 50 lb amp from smashing through when dropped never ceases to amaze me! :blink:

John

hjames

08-02-2007, 06:11 AM

I've said it before - a UPS clerk actually told me that shipments must be packed to withstand a 3' dead drop at any angle ...
John

yep - except it was a USPS shipment, so UPS rules wouldn't apply ...;)

But - who would imagine someone would pack a nearly 50lb high end receiver with wadded newspaper and think that would be fine?

BMWCCA

08-02-2007, 06:29 AM

Yep, BTDT. Nothing surprises me anymore about the way people ship amps or speakers. I'm waiting for a motorcycle helmet I bought off Ebay to arrive via USPS. I even worry about them managing to destroy that!

For some reason I've always been happy with the way my UPS deliveries are handled:
http://www.skindustrial.com/graphics/sexy-ups-girl.jpg

hjames

08-07-2007, 06:36 PM

Well, Chas is a great packer! Woohoo!

I just got box 1 of 2 via USPS (and canada mail).
Its a pair of 2231s reconed as 2235s from the North.
I pulled one of my 2215s from the "L-200" (quasi-L300s) and swapped the 2235 into its place. its a bit late to run the levels up much, but it does sound nice in that cabinet. Crossovers are the 3133 equivalents I built last year - cabinet is basically stock - no Zilch-plugs in sight (yet).
I'm still hoping to swap out that 100s/ch surround-sound JVC receiver for a clean Yamaha receiver of around 125 watts. I'll never run it loud, but that should leave a fine margin. Maybe next month if things go well ...

Nice vintage speakers should have nice vintage amps.

hjames

08-12-2007, 07:17 PM

Well, I made another trip to Aberdeen today. Stuart (the guy who sold me the L200 cabinets back in Feb) had reposted a Yamaha CR-1020 receiver last night and a quick email and phone call and he said he'd put it aside to sell to me.
So we ran up there today, tested it out in his audio den, and brought it down to VA and into place around 4PM.
Its for the Living room system room - its a very nice clean 2nd generation Yamaha Receiver circa 1977-79.
Roughly 80-90w/ch but very clean watts. Its a great match for the quasi L300s.

We've tried Airtunes, Emma's iPod, CDs or FM - so far it sounds perfect with all of them.

Still waiting for the 2nd 2235H from Canada for this left speaker - Chas thinks Customs may be checkin' it out ... sigh.

Fred Sanford

08-13-2007, 04:23 AM

Looks good- what's the rotary phone there, an old Western Electric 300?

Enjoy,

je

hjames

08-13-2007, 05:11 AM

Looks good- what's the rotary phone there, an old Western Electric 300?

Enjoy,

je

Thanks. The phone? Its some retro vintage thing Emma bought - its a push button phone designed to look like the classics ... its not bad, just haven't decided where its going to live now that my corner tables were replaced by big speakers!

And what a change in the sound. I knew ther JVC receiver was great for home theatre use but was just a placeholder there, but that Yamaha is really crisp on those speakers. Even that telcarc 1812 had quite a snap to the Cannons (not like the monitors downstairs, but a pretty fine second place) - again, you can hear subtle nuiances in Aja, and the remastered Boston (first) Album got "stupid loud" at anything above 2 on the volume setting ... I had no idea.

Chas

08-13-2007, 05:39 AM

Nice looking woofer! But that foilcal has gotta go....:D

hjames

08-13-2007, 05:54 AM

Nice looking woofer! But that foilcal has gotta go....:D

yeah - I know - when I got them they didn't have ANY foilcals (in L200 mode), and with the upgrade and second lPad, I'm not sure a Summit 300 foilcal is the right way to go. besides, I really want to do grills and foilcals for the 4341s first. I only pull the grills off the L200s to take pictures.

pos

08-16-2007, 04:01 PM

Heather, I have two questions regarding your experiments with the quasi-4341 you did with this L200 and your 2123H. How did it sound compared to your current 4341? Did you manage to get a good blend out of these drivers? Did you run the whole setup active?

I saw that you used a T-amp. I am tring it for the 1" but found two issues when running active:
- the amp does "pop" when turned on, which I am afraid could fatigue the diaphragme (their is no crossover or protection cap after the amp)
- the residual noise is clearly audible with the 1" due to its high sensitivity, even with a S/N ratio well above 100db for the t-amp. I tried with other amps (Yamaha M50, S/N > 120db) and got the same problem.

How did you handle these problems?

hjames

08-16-2007, 04:54 PM

Heather, I have two questions regarding your experiments with the quasi-4341 you did with this L200 and your 2123H. How did it sound compared to your current 4341? Did you manage to get a good blend out of these drivers? Did you run the whole setup active?

The quasi-434x didn't have the quality of the current system - what I had was a 552 JBL crossover feeding two amps - the low side fed the old 2215 woofers, the high split fed a 3133 passive crossover (one I built when I ran the system as quasi 4333 3-ways). That passive fed the remaining drivers (the 2123, 2420 and 2405 slot). It wasn't bad, but the 4341s are much smoother. Of course, I wasn't running the correct Woofer, the correct 10", or the correct 4345 style passive crossover for them.

I saw that you used a T-amp. I am trying it for the 1" but found two issues when running active:
- the amp does "pop" when turned on, which I am afraid could fatigue the diaphragm (their is no crossover or protection cap after the amp)
- the residual noise is clearly audible with the 1" due to its high sensitivity, even with a S/N ratio well above 100db for the t-amp. I tried with other amps (Yamaha M50, S/N > 120db) and got the same problem.

How did you handle these problems?

I was only running a T-amp briefly with the horn kit that Zilch sent me.
Once I finished that test I sent his t-Amp back with the horns, 552 crossover and compensating networks (but I liked the 552 crossover so much I bought my own!)

With the 2123/2420/2405 I originally ran a 75watt crown amp, then later I ran those 3 drivers on a JBL 6330 Amp (thats what I run the high side of my 4341s with also). I run the low side with a JBL 6360 amp - both of those amps have built-in driver protection that disconnects the outputs during power on to avoid the thump.
You can blow a compression driver diaphram with those power-on thumps - they aren't meant to take low frequency like that.

Even with protective circuits in your amps, the order you power on your gear is important. With my system I fire up the receiver (signal source), then the 552 crossover, and last the 2 amps. I power down in the reverse order (amps, crossover, receiver).

I haven't heard the HF noise you speak of, but I am a bit older and maybe burned off the high end of my hearing in too many smoky concerts in my youth ;)

Well, I do hear a bit of "sizzle" on some digital discs with very high frequency stuff - but not exhaustively so (Aja and the lot).

macaroonie

08-16-2007, 05:00 PM

Brasso for the contacts ???????????

hjames

08-16-2007, 05:13 PM

Brasso for the contacts ???????????

Nah - Brasso for the brass potpouri globe next to it on the table (gotten at a recent yard sale) and we have a lot of brass stuff around to keep cleaned.

I don't use the brasso for the speakers or the reciever, but I heard its good for polishing the backside of an iPod (I keep mine in a case so it doesn't get scratched).

pos

08-17-2007, 03:59 AM

hjames

08-17-2007, 04:13 AM

Thank you Heather.

The real 434X receipt seems more subtile than I thought. The 2123H itself needs some taming. Maybe a smaller dogbox could make things better (small bump around 300Hz).
In theory running the 4 drivers active using a digital crosover could result in a better setup than stock 434X. All drivers can be precisely time-aligned and it make empirical adjustement really easy. But I guess even with these tools it would be near to impossible to achieve something better than what JBL managed to get with passive networks, and would imply hours of experiments and mesurements.

My not-too-subtle comparison of the 2123 vs the 2122 is that the '23 is more efficient than the '22 or '21, and ignoring the difference in response curves, at a minimum it plays louder - so you at least have to pad it down more or it'll be more prominent in the "mix".

pos

08-17-2007, 05:01 AM

hjames

08-17-2007, 05:46 AM

One last question: Do you think your quasi-434X sounded better than your current quasi-L300 (with near-to-stock crossover) ?
Is it worth throwing a 10" into the mix if I am not sure I can blend it perfeclty with the other drivers?

Thats hard for me to say.
The current Quasi L300s are in a completely different accoustic space compared to the TV room downstairs. The Living Room has a cathedral ceiling with wooden floor and lots of plants, the TV Room had 8' ceiling, on concrete slab floor w/carpet, no plants (there are pictures of it earlier in this thread).

In addition, they now have the right woofer (2235s instead of the 2215s I had before), and NOT being biamped (Yamaha 80w/ch receiver). They sound very nice at reasonable levels - a bit harsh and shrill if I start cranking it into "stupid loud" territory.

I'm still getting to know them, but they are probably close to their final evolution.

I'm kind of frugal, so if I was looking at building either system from scratch, I'd probably go with the 3-way design - adding the 10" adds a lot of complexity to the cabinet design as well as to the crossover - unless your 4-way plan was to build a quasi 4345 - from all I hear that is in another league, as these things go.

The picture is from 2 wks ago when I had the old JVC receiver running them, before I got the Yamaha (last weekend).
Thats Dolly Lama Diva (one of our Himalayan cats) sleeping on the sunday Wash Post

pos

08-17-2007, 09:12 AM

Thank you Heater!
The descriptions you made about your L200 and 4333 experiments in your threads are very inspiring lectures!

SEAWOLF97

08-20-2007, 12:48 PM

Heather - thot you might enjoy these from my 1973 catalog....

at the time , really liked the looks of the L45 Flair , but have never run into anyone owning that model ...TOM

hjames

09-29-2007, 04:19 PM

September 17 I asked Sonofagun to make me a set of L200 foams (with the mounting frames) for me. Quite a nice price, and - he's QUICK!
the grills and frames arrived this afternoon via priority mail and I got them mounted today. I ordered the Brown foam, (Seawolf's scanned brochure shows the smoke or Black foam) but Sonofagun does all the original L200 colors. The brown is a good match for the cabinets (the flash from my ancient olympus digicam makes them look redder somehow, but, trust me, they are a fine match to the wood).He even includes a long strip of velcro to put on the frames so I can attach them to the existing velcro on the cabinets. Very thorough guy, and great work to boot!

Thats hard for me to say.
The current Quasi L300s are in a completely different accoustic space compared to the TV room downstairs. The Living Room has a cathedral ceiling with wooden floor and lots of plants, the TV Room had 8' ceiling, on concrete slab floor w/carpet, no plants (there are pictures of it earlier in this thread).

In addition, they now have the right woofer (2235s instead of the 2215s I had before), and NOT being biamped (Yamaha 80w/ch receiver). They sound very nice at reasonable levels - a bit harsh and shrill if I start cranking it into "stupid loud" territory.

I'm still getting to know them, but they are probably close to their final evolution.

I'm kind of frugal, so if I was looking at building either system from scratch, I'd probably go with the 3-way design - adding the 10" adds a lot of complexity to the cabinet design as well as to the crossover - unless your 4-way plan was to build a quasi 4345 - from all I hear that is in another league, as these things go.

The picture is from 2 wks ago when I had the old JVC receiver running them, before I got the Yamaha (last weekend).
Thats Dolly Lama Diva (one of our Himalayan cats) sleeping on the sunday Wash Post

hjames

12-14-2007, 04:57 PM

Newest update: I've been real happy with the Harman Kardon 8380 5 CD changer I got a year and a half ago for the TV room system (where the biAmped 4341s live). I just had a single disc JVC cheapy before that, but this unit has the Brown-Burr chips and also decodes HDCD, and I've got maybe 2 - 3 dozen discs that have the HDCD feature.

The JVC CD player went onto the Yamaha CR-2020/JBL L200-plus 3-way system in the upstairs living room.

Well, I just got another (used) HK 8380 changer off ebay - a local seller here in Fairfax - $52 complete with cables, manual, remote and everything! I just hooked it up to the Yamaha and it sounds great.
We played Emma's test CD "Steely Dan - Aja" and she swears she hears better separation and overall less muddy sound.
Then I grabbed the Tommy Emmanuel CD Bo spoke about a few months back - its an HDCD recording and sounds VERY fine!

I've become a VERY big fan of these Harman Kardon changers (Its actually a MUCH more stable stack than it looks)

subwoof

04-06-2008, 07:54 PM

Finally finished the assembly and parked them in the living room next to the ( now sold ) 4315's. I aquaplassed the 2425J diaphrams, made the 3133 networks and bumped out the back and used the 2312 so they *are* L300's in sound. Even found a pair of 136A's and 2231A kits for 'em...

sub

Benno

04-21-2008, 05:04 PM

How did You Aquaplas the 2425J's??

Can anyone tell me how to get the aquaplas material?

I have some upcomming DIY projects, and im hoping that by aquaplassing som Titanium drivers, they will become allmost as good as the new beryllium... (or at least as smooth sounding)

hjames

01-01-2009, 05:06 PM

Well, I'm hoping to follow in your good direction ... Last year I installed the 2405 slots and a 3-way 3133 crossover (thanks to 4313Bs designs!).
Pulled the 2234 woofers (the LE15s came out last year), pulled the horns & drivers, ready to drill out the back of the cabinet, pop the short horns off the 2420s drivers and bolt long horns in their place.
And Teddy has to watch over everything, of course ...!

Finally finished the assembly and parked them in the living room next to the ( now sold ) 4315's. I aquaplassed the 2425J diaphrams, made the 3133 networks and bumped out the back and used the 2312 so they *are* L300's in sound. Even found a pair of 136A's and 2231A kits for 'em...

sub

JBL 4645

01-03-2009, 11:38 AM

Look at Teddy, the ole bugger :D sat on the speaker LOL. What’s with the new avatar just brought a (disc saw) for diy?

hjames

01-03-2009, 12:42 PM

Look at Teddy, the ole bugger :D sat on the speaker LOL. What’s with the new avatar just brought a (disc saw) for diy?

Naw, thats an old compound mitre saw I got 2 years ago ...
made the wheelie bases for my big speakers with it!

someone wrote last week, "Oh, you're a girl!" ...
some folks haven't figured out hjames is Heather (grin) ...
Just seemed like using a different Avatar might get the idea across -
Teddy will have to suffer ...

But, as you can see from the L200 pictures below,
Teddy takes over any room we are in ...
He's always close ...!

Titanium Dome

01-03-2009, 01:11 PM

JBL 4645

01-03-2009, 05:20 PM

Bookshelf with random and odd objects placed within and on top will be doing something good or then again could be worse. Take a look at the heap I have lined along on the left side in my livingroom, now that’s bad LOL. I have no idea when I’m going to stick it in the bedroom, soon, soon.

Guess you could support a false ceiling that is even horizontally. You’ll have to remove a few shelves and anything less that I can’t see in the picture.

But I don’t see it as of paramount importance. The walls are odd shape same as mine that will be dealt with soon, soon. Does that room have window in the ceiling looks like it, looks like some natural light seeming though overhead.

Fred Sanford

01-03-2009, 06:41 PM

Aw, no more Teddy. :(

My dad used to love hjames, AKA Harry James. Made me listen to him all the time.

I still listen to hjames today, but only the "girl" on Lansing Heritage. Must say I like her better.

I listened to lots of Harry James on my Dad's old 45s, actually only got rid of them very recently.

Still remember being awed by "Flight of the Bumblebee" on trumpet as a kid.

je

hjames

06-23-2009, 03:11 AM

Okay - I've been playing with the L100Ts lately, the the crossovers that Duanage upped to T3 specs, so I haven't posted much on the L200 project lately.
Last I spoke I had gotten a pair of 2312 LongHorns and built some bump-out boxes, so I could put a hole in the back of the cabinet for the extended length of the longhorns with driver, and still have the back of the cabinet "sealed" so the ports would work. But I hadn't made the rear holes to do so yet.

Well, earlier this year I got a pair of 2425 horn drivers with aquaplas ti diaphram.

And in early June I got a pair of JBL 2397 "Smith horns", aka "Duck lips".
They're made for 2 inch drivers like the 2441, so I had to get 2327 adapters to mount up my smaller 2420 drivers.
And I did. And made cork gaskets and bolted everything together ... lots of bolts ...

I was going to test the smith horns with the loose 2425s, but then last weekend I decided to put them where they belong, in the 4341, which freed up the pair of 2420s they had come with.

So yesterday I took one of my 3-way L200s, laid it on its back and disconnected the Lpad lead from the internal horn, and ran it to the extra banana jacks on the back of that cabinet (left over from when I biamped them). Remember, these cabinets are using the 3133 Equiv circuits
(like 4333 system) 4313B shared with us a year or two back. And current drivers are 2234, 2420, 2405 slots - 3 ways.

Anyway, with a short jumper, I ran mids out of the cabinet and into the smith horn laying on top. I just did this with the left speaker, the right one still has the original 2307 and driver. Gave me a good chance to do a fair A/B (Thanks Toddalin)

Played Famous Blue raincoat and Aja - and it sounded like the right horn dominated the room. Seemed shrill. Unhooked the right speaker (2307 cab) and let it play single channel and - it sounded better!

The Smith horn has a wide sound stage but is very directional, height-wise.
This is only a brief comment and with luck I'll swap the other horn after work today and have more info for this thread, but ... time to scoot!

hjames

06-23-2009, 03:00 PM

Okay - got home by 4PM today, rolled the other cabinet out of the corner, laid it out, pulled the woofer and switched the mid-horn wiring to the extra rear pair of banana jacks. flipped it back onto the wheeled plinth, put the glass on top, a thin sheet of foam, the horn assembly, and connected it up just like the left one yesterday, rolled it back into place on the right, then tested it - played these tracks:

Bryan Ferry - Avalon Ballroom - (live tracks from his Big Band tour of 98)
Van Morrison - No Guru ... - Track 2, then skipped around a bit
Steely Dan - 2 Against Nature - Dupree, and skipped a bit ...
Concrete Blonde - Mexican Moon - Dance Along the Edge (Thanks Ducatista!)
Lyle Lovette - Joshua ... - Church, and "Already Made up her Mind"
Peter Gabriel - San Jacinto and Shock the Monkey
Joe Jackson - Body and Soul - jumped around a bit
Oh, one other disc -
Giora Feidman Magic of the Klezmer (Cut 14 - Gershwin suite - Delos CD)
that sold us on the sound near immediately ... you can distinguish the reed noises now!

Emma says the effect is like going to a more accoustic speaker, and says she is hearing details we didn't hear with the 2307 horns - imaging is better as well. Sound field has better definition.

Its not strictly a double-blind test - The smith horns are using the 2420s that came with the 4341s (which probably have Tia diaphrams). The L200 2307/2420 horn combo came from the 4320s I got in Philly but they they are undisturbed as well - maybe AL diaphrams?? Just don't know.

But it sounds like a real improvement - Emma asked if we could maybe get a second set for the 4341s (she didn't realize the price of the 2397s, so I explained that side of it to her ...)

But - they are a hit!

(The real trick would be to get a set with a nice hardwood finish - but that's a ways down the road!)

MikeBrewster77

06-23-2009, 06:17 PM

Emma asked if we could maybe get a second set for the 4341s ...

But - they are a hit!

Excellent! With the improvements in imaging and definition it sounds like it's definitely been a worthwhile investment. And when the OH asks you to possibly buy more, well ... you know you've done good! ;)

Doc Mark

06-24-2009, 08:33 AM

Morning, Heather,

BRAVO!! Well done, and thanks, very much, for the report!! I like the Duck-billed Platypus, too!! ;):D:applaud: From reading your report, I'm even more excited about playing with my own 2397's. I, too, have a pair of 2420's, which are currently living in the 4333 cabs I got from Grumpy. But, my original plan was to use the 2397's with the 2445J's I got from Todd, and electronically cross them over. We'll see how that turns out. In any case, it's very nice to see that you've gotten right to it, and made this happen in your system. It's also very nice that Emma appreciates good sound, and is supportive in your love of the same!! Like you, I am blessed with my Sweet Bride, who is very supportive of this crazy, but very satisfying JBL hobby/devotion/love!! Again, well done, and thanks for sharing your impressions of this new setup! Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

hjames

07-16-2009, 05:04 PM

Okay - 'nother darned change to the "parlor" system.
Its current got the L100T/3s at one end of the room and the L200+2397 3ways at the other ...was driven by a Yamaha CR1020 - that started acting up ...
Well, after some research and a fortunate ad in the local Craigslist ... I've added another Carver piece to my collection ... a 6250 receiver - with remote!

The sound is really good and its rated 130w/ch - certainly gets the L100T/3 kicking!

MikeBrewster77

07-16-2009, 05:12 PM

hjames

07-16-2009, 06:22 PM

Always with the changes ;) Oh wait - I do that too ...... nevermind.

It sure looks nice. Any specifics on how it compares to the Yamaha?

Well, the Yamaha CR-1020 was one of the top receivers they made circa 77-79 ...
The Vintage Knob rated it quite highly - and was something I lusted after for many years -
but its strictly manual and a few years old. I'll have it checked out and adjusted - but the carver seems like a real nice standby!

The Carver sounds very nice so far, but I'll have to really give it a shakedown to see for sure.
Its really nice and full with the L100T/3s - on the more efficient L200-3ways ... I need some close-up listening time.
Tuner seems VERY sensitive - picks up lots of local FMs with just a hunk of coax -
once I plugged the coax into the BIC Beam Box I had even more!

Pretty colorful, with various yellow and red lamps for FM tuning and power level meters -

It does have the Sonic Holography stuff ... will have to check that out too!

I bought it from the original owner - he got it at Leachmere's in Cambridge, MA back in '89 -
but said its been on a shelf unused for the last few years.

The specs in the back of the manual sound real conservative 125w/ch 8 ohm,
claims 0.1 thd ... but it sounds a lot cleaner!

jcrobso

07-17-2009, 08:42 AM

"The specs in the back of the manual sound real conservative 125w/ch 8 ohm,
claims 0.1 thd ... but it sounds a lot cleaner!"

My guess is that the 0.1 THD is at max power just before the onset of clipping. For most listing levels the THD is much less.

When I met Bob Carver back when the PL700 first came out he said that is how he rates the amps. Below clipping the highest the distortion will ever get is .1 THD.

hjames

09-27-2009, 03:12 PM

The original cabinets I did this project in were nice, but had some flaws - one cabinet started to separate on the top left, the front molding were a bit battered, and there were some scratches and such. But I did the upgrades with 2405 slot tweeters and the 3133 (4333) crossovers, and once we put them in our upstairs living room, the sound made them keepers.
But I figured if I ever find a better pair of cabinets, I'd snap them up and move the parts into them.

So, when I saw my buddy Stuart in Aberdeen had a pair of L200 cabinets listed on ebay, I asked for some better pictures. The auction never met his reserve but he and I came to terms afterwards, and both of us are happy!

He's about 2 hours from our house, so we drove up Saturday, and as always, he has an amazing collection of stuff in process. But as it looked like rain was on the way, after a while we loaded the cabs in the back of the CRV and headed back to VA ...

I've got to drill the baffles for the 2405 slots, and the extra hole for the treble adjust pot, but - the cabs are VERY clean and will upgrade our project speakers into very nice furniture ... Of course, replacing the grey 2397 smith horns with a nice pair of walnut or rosewood horns would set them off perfectly!

One we got the new cabinets in the room I gave them a mild wipe with Orange oil and voila!! (that's Viola for you Phil:applaud:) ...

So, in a couple weeks, once I get the grills and drivers swapped around, I'll have an extra set of L200 cabs, if anyone has a pending project. 4 of these cabs have eaten my living room, for sure!
But these new ones are keepers!

BMWCCA

09-27-2009, 05:59 PM

I always liked the look of the L200 cabinet. Those look like they'll fit in nicely. :applaud:

boputnam

09-27-2009, 08:16 PM

I've got to drill the baffles for the 2405 slots, and the extra hole for the treble adjust pot, but - the cabs are VERY clean and will up our speakers into very nice furniture ...

4 of these cabs have eaten my living room, for sure!Heather, it sure has been fun to watch you evolve! Well done... :)

goodbalance

09-27-2009, 10:15 PM

Hey!
You have the Wendy Carlos boxed set...isn't it great?

hjames

09-28-2009, 02:47 AM

Hey!
You have the Wendy Carlos boxed set...isn't it great?
Yep, good stuff indeed!
I've got an Elvis box set, a Grateful Dead box, Lou Reed box, Muddy Waters Chess box, Patsy Cline box, a pair of King Crimson boxes ... and I'm sure some others - my tastes are all over the map!:applaud:

MikeBrewster77

09-28-2009, 06:25 AM

But these new ones are keepers!

Indeed! Very nice - congrats on the score :)

opimax

09-28-2009, 06:32 AM

When's that listening party?

Mark

hjames

10-05-2009, 05:53 PM

toddalin

10-06-2009, 09:42 AM

I took this image from the JBL Pro brochure, resized it up and down a bit until I had matching dimensions. If you "save the image to your computer, print this graphic at 100%, it should be a life-size template for centering and drilling holes to mount a 2405 driver to your baffle board.

Just lay a ruler along the printout and be sure the 3 7/8 inch scale and the 3 1/8 dimension match up on your ruler. Drill the opening for the slot to 3 1/8 ... Or use a 3 1/4 hole saw and use a bit of dumdum to seal the face of the tweeter to the baffle board.

I'll be using this to set everything up for my "new" L200B cabinets.

I just mark the centerpoint for the tweeters on the baffleboard and use a 3-1/8" hole saw to make the hole. Then just insert the driver into the hole backwards from the front of the cabinet. Use a bubble level to get the top edge level and use a "point" to mark the holes to be drilled. This is probably easier using AlNiCo tweeters though as it is easier to get at the screw holes.

hjames

10-10-2009, 07:00 PM

Did the driver migration today. Used a ruler to mark off centerlines for the 2405s, used the templates and the holes fell into place perfectly.
Walked away for a few to grab a vacuum and when I got back I found the inspector had arrived on the job site
and had to be appeased before the jpb could continue.

Pulled the old boxes down 1 by 1 - drilled holes for the satellite board and the dual pot (mid--hi level),
migrated all the parts tested everything - a quick wipe of orange oil on top, then the glass and the 2397s ... then popped in the brown grills!
Someday I'll have sign--shop make me some custom foilcals for them - something like "L200-Plus"

Even with Zilch plugs in the one port, these things have some bass with those 2234s - hooha!

Still have to do something with the old cabs, but tomorrow is another day ... and so is Monday!

I know the wheel carts aren't great, but they work and allow me to hustle these things around without injury!
A better pair is on the agenda ...

I took this image from the JBL Pro brochure, resized it up and down a bit until I had matching dimensions. If you "save the image to your computer, print this graphic at 100%, it should be a life-size template for centering and drilling holes to mount a 2405 driver to your baffle board.

Just lay a ruler along the printout and be sure the 3 7/8 inch scale and the 3 1/8 dimension match up on your ruler. Drill the opening for the slot to 3 1/8 ... Or use a 3 1/4 hole saw and use a bit of dumdum to seal the face of the tweeter to the baffle board.

I'll be using this to set everything up for my "new" L200B cabinets.

hjames

10-10-2009, 07:02 PM

When's that listening party?

Mark
later'n the month, I 'spose ...

cosmos

10-10-2009, 11:13 PM

But it sounds like a real improvement - Emma asked if we could maybe get a second set for the 4341s (she didn't realize the price of the 2397s, so I explained that side of it to her ...)

But - they are a hit!

(The real trick would be to get a set with a nice hardwood finish - but that's a ways down the road!)
Way to go Heather!

As luck would have it, I have a pair of L200B and a pair of 4320 sitting around collecting dust. I had given thought of making some Smith Horns myself.. although I thought I'd just do a two way... The other pair might get a set of Unity Horns.

If I do make a set of Smith horns, do you still want a set? Once you set up to make two, four are about as easy.. :D What wood are you thinking? My cabs are Walnut, so I figured I'd do Walnut..

hjames

10-11-2009, 02:52 AM

Wow - you DO have quite the collection!
'course my newer interest in JBLs started with 4320s, then moved the parts into the L200s, which have a better SAF with Emma as well as me!

Interested in Walnut smith horns? Absolutely! We love the sound of the JBL smithhorns (even with 24020s!), but that grey is flat ugly, and painting them would ruin the collectors resale value without helping the looks much.
But there's always a place here for nice wood!

What kind of time frame - a winter project?

Way to go Heather!

As luck would have it, I have a pair of L200B and a pair of 4320 sitting around collecting dust. I had given thought of making some Smith Horns myself.. although I thought I'd just do a two way... The other pair might get a set of Unity Horns.

If I do make a set of Smith horns, do you still want a set? Once you set up to make two, four are about as easy.. :D What wood are you thinking? My cabs are Walnut, so I figured I'd do Walnut..

cosmos

10-11-2009, 10:38 AM

What kind of time frame - a winter project?

With me, ya just never know.. I might get them done in a month or a year from now, it could still be on my to do list.. However, yes, I'd like to get them done in November or December...

Do you want 1" exits? Also, I am thinking 800 Hz, but may push it down to 500 Hz for a second set. The 800 Hz appears to be about 15.5" wide and 2.25" tall, while the 500 Hz calculates to about 37" wide.. according to the formula I have..

Here's a really nice looking project.. (http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=5454)

hjames

10-16-2009, 07:15 AM

Okay, the driver migration is done, the new builds sound great - so - what to do with the older funky boxes? On close inspection, only one of them is really bad with apparent freeze damage and some separating of the top left corner. The other looks to be in pretty good shape, and is already pre-drilled for 3 way use.

So, the plan is to keep the good box from the old pair, and built it up to match the nicer pair ... for eventual use as the front center box in a surround system. I have an extra 3133 crossover built, and extra LE85 and 2405 slot. All I'll need is a single 2234 to match the others, plus a single screen and grill, and to build another Lpad board to mount inside the baffle

But the other L200B cabinet ... its still functional, but I'd hate to put it on the curb for Monday trash pickup ...

Does anyone (local) want it?

Shipping isn't going to happen, but its free for local pickup!

Yep, good stuff indeed!
http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=15317&highlight=L200
:applaud:

Fred Sanford

10-16-2009, 09:34 AM

Okay, the driver migration is done, the new builds sound great - so - what to do with the older funky boxes? On close inspection, only one of them is really bad with apparent freeze damage and some separating of the top left corner. The other looks to be in pretty good shape, and is already pre-drilled for 3 way use.

So, the plan is to keep the good box from the old pair, and built it up to match the nicer pair ... for eventual use as the front center box in a surround system. I have an extra 3133 crossover built, and extra LE85 and 2405 slot. All I'll need is a single 2234 to match the others, plus a single screen and grill, and to build another Lpad board to mount inside the baffle

But the other L200B cabinet ... its still functional, but I'd hate to put it on the curb for Monday trash pickup ...

Does anyone (local) want it?

Shipping isn't going to happen, but its free for local pickup!

Hmmm...a center channel between my 4333As...;)

Nah- thanks, though.

je

opimax

10-16-2009, 09:54 AM

you really should from a guy who hs 3 250s accross the front...:rockon2:

hjames

10-16-2009, 10:14 AM

you really should from a guy who hs 3 250s accross the front...:rockon2:

Agreed - and - the L200 has such good spouse acceptance factor!
plus, its not hard to do the rear bump-out and fit the long horn in there to sonically match your 4333s!

opimax

10-16-2009, 04:46 PM

You can pick it up at the listening party Heather said would be soon...I could even store it til then if needed...and since I know Heather so well I asked her to cut the price in 1/2 just for YOU!

Fred Sanford

10-16-2009, 06:07 PM

You can pick it up at the listening party Heather said would be soon...I could even store it til then if needed...and since I know Heather so well I asked her to cut the price in 1/2 just for YOU!

Well, seeing as since you guys were last here I've picked up 8 more JBL cabs, I think I gotta stick with the projects that are already on my plate.

Maybe I'll bring Heather some cabs to build into rear speakers for this room...

je

hjames

10-16-2009, 09:31 PM

You can pick it up at the listening party Heather said would be soon...I could even store it til then if needed...and since I know Heather so well I asked her to cut the price in 1/2 just for YOU!
Really? Last time I asked no one responded ... I figured they were just busy or all tuckered out ...

So what works for y'all - something like Oct 31st, or Nov 14 ??

opimax

10-18-2009, 06:58 AM

Nov 14th would be my choice

Mark

hjames

10-22-2009, 04:22 PM

Nov 14th would be my choice

Mark

Then for you, my friend, that will be the date!:applaud:

opimax

10-22-2009, 04:31 PM

Why thank you , you are so accommodating :D

hjames

10-26-2009, 06:15 AM

I was away at the 15th annual Meadows Celtic Festival and Highland Games this weekend,
and when I returned, my neighbor said a large box had arrive for me ...

He brought it over last night via handtruck and when I opened it,
I found a beautiful pair of wooden smith horns from John W of Washington (thanks John!).
Hooked just one up last night, but we were all piped out and headed shortly to bed.

But I'm off today to recover from the travelling and the meat pies and the whiskey (just kidding) ...
Its a bit early in the morning to crank the system for a proper listen, but they sound great so far -
more info when I have it. And yes, I'll put a nice wood spacer under the front,
instead of the pink foam that I used with the 2397 grey horns.

By the way, if all goes well (and I expect it will),
the grey JBL 2397 horns will be for sale shortly!

Chas

10-26-2009, 06:45 AM

Beautiful Heather! Fantastic work, John.:)

Earl K

10-26-2009, 06:46 AM

Wow, gorgeous ! :thmbsup:

>, cheers :)

Doc Mark

10-26-2009, 08:40 AM

hjames

10-26-2009, 09:05 AM

Howdy, Heather,

Stunningly lovely!! Congrats on your new "John W." horns, and have fun enjoying them!! I have yet to make time to hook up my 2397's, but may have to do so.... Thanks for sharing your new lovelies with us!! Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

Hook 'em up Doc!
I started with the grey ones, and they convinced me that sonically,
it was the best way to do horns for my 3 way system -
but, I had to have pretty wood instead of the industrial greys
... and John did them proud!

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=42587&stc=1&d=1256562921
http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=40397&stc=1&d=1245794560

MikeBrewster77

10-26-2009, 10:28 AM

Very nice!!!! :applaud:

Doc Mark

10-26-2009, 11:44 AM

Hi, Heather,

I say again, "WOW"!! John "did them proud, INDEED!! :applaud::applaud: I showed your new horns to Sweet Bride, and she was mightily impressed! I guess I will HAVE to hook up those 2397's, and then, "go from there...."! ;):D Thanks, again, for sharing your new horns, and congrats on scoring them. Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

toddalin

10-26-2009, 05:28 PM

Way cool. :applaud:

BMWCCA

10-31-2009, 04:40 PM

Geezzz, they look like pancakes you must have to be sitting to hear these correctly as the sound must be on a very thin plain.But hey they look good Now here is a nice set of horns that actually sound good, Nice Furniture though !!!! :DDon't be so quick to be so smug, Mr. "Altec Best". :D

Even Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horn_loudspeaker) takes issue with your assumptions:

Horn Loudspeakers

Radial, sectoral and diffraction
Altec sectoral horns were radial horns with vanes placed in the mouth of the horn for the stated purpose of pattern control. For ease in mounting to loudspeaker cabinets, flat front radial horns have been used, for instance by Community in their SQ 90 high-frequency horn. JBL's diffraction or "Smith" horn was a variation on the radial design, using a very small vertical dimension at the mouth as a method of avoiding the mid-range horizontal beaming of radial horns that have a larger vertical dimension at the mouth. The diffraction horn has been popular in monitor designs and for near-field public address applications which benefit from its wide horizontal dispersion pattern. Counter-intuitively, the narrow vertical dimension provided for an expansive vertical output pattern approaching 90° for frequencies of a wavelength equal to the narrow vertical dimension. A very small version of the diffraction horn was designed in 1991 into the JBL model 2405H Ultra-High Frequency Transducer, yielding a 90° x 35° output pattern at 20 kHz.

SEAWOLF97

10-31-2009, 04:50 PM

I think they look great HJ ....you know abt me & beautiful wood ....I'd display 'em even if if there was no horn to attach them to ....:o:

We need to hear abt your listening impressions :applaud:

(hope no one makes those in L7 black ash) :barf:

BMWCCA

10-31-2009, 05:01 PM

(hope no one makes those in L7 black ash) :barf:I'd be happy to run a blow-torch over them, just for you! ;)

http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-whacky064.gif

yggdrasil

10-31-2009, 06:05 PM

Now that is a beautiful looking horn. I bet it sounds good to!

Robh3606

11-01-2009, 05:09 AM

Heather, sorry for all of the noise here, but if we eliminate all of it a number of people will inevitably get upset with our "censorship."

Hello All

I dumped the posts. I figured those involved would understand. This post will self destruct in a day or so.

Rob:)

hjames

11-01-2009, 06:52 AM

Thanks for the thread cleanup, guys -- I really appreciate it!

Ok, back to the topic. We went to the Celtic festival near Richmond last weekend (oct 24-25) and I came back with some Celtic Rock CDs - Rathkeltair is a fusion power trio with bagpipes, and Barleyjuice is a larger band - lets call them alt-trad ... drinkin' songs with an edge ... (they did a medley of London Calling, Whiskey Bar, and Folsom Prison last week that just wowed the crowd!)

Anyway, between them and a couple of the Beatles remasters that came in, I sat down last Monday for some listening time, cranked it up a bit, and realized something wasn't right. Seemed like the sound "crashed" when I turned it up - argh, distortion! - I figured I must have gotten something wrong when I moved all the drivers into the new cabinets a few weeks back. It wasn't the new Smith horns, I just haven't had much time for attentive listening on that system for in a while ... sigh ...

I also considered that when I'd put the grey smith horns on that system, I'd used the (spare) 2420s that came out of my 4341s.
The sound we had enjoyed so long with those L200 3ways had been using the 2420s that were still mounted to the short horns in the cabinet. The ones I pulled from the 4341s "should" be the same, but I haven't pulled them down to check diaphrams or anything.
Frankly, there's no need to leave the original ones in the cabinet, except to plug the hole in the baffle they'd leave if I took them out.
But they're expensive to use as hole-plugs, and they don't need to left in be there with the Smith horns on top. Only drivers in use in that cabinet is the woofer and the slot tweeters - may as well pull the LE85s!

So, I grabbed some small planks of 3/4 MDF from another project, got some 1/4 x 20 pemnuts from Home Despot, and made a pair of blocking plates to mount against the inside of the baffleboard and cover using the existing countersunk phillips screws that held the horns in place.

I printed out the schematic for the 3133 Equivalent circuits I built a couple years ago, (thanks again 4313b!) laid the cabinets out on their backs, and pulled the 2234 woofers so I could access everything.

Found what looked like a loose soldier joint on the stacked resistors, so I reflowed that, and also saw the 2405 slot was connected normally, when the schematic shows it connected reverse-polarity, compared to the other two drivers. So - I reversed the 2405 connections, did a quick check, and closed them both up.

After that I pulled the original 2420s off the short horns, and swapped them onto the new Walnut smith horns. I put some blue masking tape over the other ones that started in the 4341s I got - I'll put them aside for now - maybe I'll ship them out for remag and rebuild at some point.

By that time it was late in the day, and the little kiddos would be due soon, so I didn't get a chance for a long test, but I dropped on Beatles Past masters (Remastered), played Daytripper with some volume, and cranked balance from full left to full right - OMG - they didn't sound very good - and they sounded VERY different from each other!!!

Thought a bit, and, on a hunch, I put the Carver receiver into MONO and tried again - NOW they sounded nearly identical.
Darned early Beatles stuff with their overly dramatic separation.

It was 6PM by then, and nearly Halloween candytime for the munchkins, so I turned off the amps and put the candy bowl by the door. Afterwards we watched some movies downstairs on the other system, checked the forum late night, and headed to bed.

Its relatively early, but once we've had some breakfast I'll do some more testing at volume and see what we've got.

Doc Mark

11-01-2009, 07:38 AM

Good Morning, Heather, and All,

First, many thanks for the clean-up of this otherwise outstanding thread.

Second, Heather, I'm sorry that you've experienced some bumps along the JBL Nirvana Highway! That's got to be disappointing, at the least. But, you will find the problem, I'm sure, and once corrected, things will most certainly be as they should be.

Quite a few years ago, I dragged my own 2420's out of storage, and hooked them up to a pair of Community horns that I'd just gotten at a local swap meet (for $20), I was crossing them over with my old Crown VFX-2A crossover, and using an HK receiver for the top, and a Crown DC300 for the bottom stuff. At low volume, they sounded very nice, indeed. But, as I played around with it, more, I found that as you say, "something wasn't right". It turned out to be one of the 2420's, which sounded a bit grainy as soon as any real volume was sent it's way. The distortion was not continuous, and it sort of came and went, as I continued to fiddle with it. But, in frustration and more than a bit of sadness, I took everything down and put my once wonderful 2420's in a box, with that one labeled "bad".

Then, years later, I joined this wonderful forum, and told the basic story of my "problem child" driver. Someone asked me if I'd cleaned the gap in the driver, and I had to admit that I had not done so. I was told that dust could get into that gap, over the years, and could possibly cause the sort of problem I'd experienced. I'm more than a little embarrassed to admit that I STILL haven't done that, and that my poor 2420 driver is still in the questionable column for using..... :o::o::banghead:

But, maybe this is something that might work for you. Something to consider, anyway. I wish you outstanding luck in sussing out the problem, whatever it turns out to be, and hope that you are soon back in the JBL Catbird Seat, enjoying the wonders of your system!! Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

demon

11-01-2009, 08:49 AM

congrats on those beautiful horns heather!!
i see that this is some very fine furniture, but i have to say that i also liked the industrial variants you had in use before. they had a certain rugged charme. also the external tweeter, uhm, or quacker, was a sympathetic appearance.

hope you get to eliminate your distortion-problem soon.
cheers,
mikey

hjames

05-06-2010, 04:25 PM

Okay - I got a better pair of L200 cabinets a few months back and moved all my drivers into those newer cabinets. I'll keep the best of the old pair - my long term plan is to have a set of 3 of these L200s for my fronts and center, and I can use other speakers for surrounds.
But - I only have a pair of the chocolate brown grill foams - and I'll need a set of 3.

Tried to get a matched 3rd, but getting a single grill at this point, there was no guarantee the color would be a match ...

So, I opted to get a fresh matched set of 3, and I'll sell off the chocolate set of 2 - its got virtually no wear, its just a bit over 1 year old ...

When I fixed up a set of L100s a year or so back, I went for a charcoal grey set of foams. Those looked nice, but - this time, I decided to go with a rich black set ...

So, I put in my order a week back with Foamtrends, and just got a set of 3 in the mail today. I just swapped the left one (have to attach the velcro to install it properly) - but - what do you think? I think they look great in black!

Course, now I need to get good set of drivers to build the 3rd cabinet!
(not right away, of course, no room right now)

grumpy

05-07-2010, 01:34 PM

Black suits those L200's well :) ... a conservative/traditional but clean look.

boputnam

05-07-2010, 02:26 PM

Darned early Beatles stuff with their overly dramatic separation.It's worse than that. It's not really stereo, it's more dual mono! The worst. It's tragic their best material remains mixed in that way...

Great story tho - good of you to think of that! :)

4343

05-08-2010, 03:11 PM

It's worse than that. It's not really stereo, it's more dual mono! The worst. It's tragic their best material remains mixed in that way...

Great story tho - good of you to think of that! :)

I kinda like it that way. Back when their stuff was new, I remember listening in 'phones and drawing a diagram of the mix. Bass in the middle, drums off to one side, guitars on the other. I remember thinking it was a perfect mix... (Didn't know it was just re-channeled from the 3-track...)

Wanna here some separation, turn the balance while playing Credence's Suzy Q.

brad347

05-09-2010, 06:05 AM

It's worse than that. It's not really stereo, it's more dual mono! The worst. It's tragic their best material remains mixed in that way...

Well if it matters (for the sake of conversation), I feel slightly differently.

To me, that stuff "is what it is." it's a product of the times, and the recordings are a document not only of the music but also the way rock n' roll was made in the UK in Britain's rock n' roll infancy.

I don't really see it as "tragic." To me, what would be tragic would be someone re-mixing the catalog to bring it up to "modern" standards of stereophony (but that is just my opinion). I think there was a recent re-release of the material where someone tried to "modernize" it (cringe-worthy, for me).

Each decision made by Sir George Martin and the Beatles at that time was made in the moment. It's quite unconventional (read: "wrong") but the resulting music was great, so I'd personally rather enjoy it in that context.

Not that I believe in the stuff being sacred or whatever (I know that some people do), I just believe in accepting half-century old music as it is, as opposed to re-writing it. Because those recordings represent part of the infancy in ROCK music (well after Les Paul, Varese, and Ligeti of course) of using the recording studio as an instrument, to create soundscapes that did not represent true-to-life sound-pictures but rather fantastic/fanciful/fictional ones.

It was an experimental time and a big part of the interest of listening to those recordings for me is that spirit of exploration and a touch of charming naivete. It's "personality."

Maybe not the best stuff to put on to highlight our carefully-crafted high fidelity systems, but surely very cool music with a very cool vibe and a palpable sense of "being in the room." Except in this case the "room" is Abbey Road instead of a concert hall, and there are young people in there, naive to the "rules" of the recording, just experimenting, playing, and trying stuff out. But you can feel the personality and you feel like you're "there." And that kind of stuff is part of why I listen to music in the first place.

The Beatles were not Franz Schubert, but-- I wouldn't be at all interested in someone else finishing the "Unfinished Symphony," and I likewise wouldn't have any interest in re-mixed Beatles with the stereophony "fixed."

Maybe that's just me though!! :)

4313B

05-09-2010, 06:15 AM

The Beatles were not Franz Schubert, but--They were a catalyst band. They inspired a ton of talent.

brad347

05-09-2010, 03:20 PM

They were a catalyst band. They inspired a ton of talent.

That was in no way intended to disparage or minimize their contributions-- I was only trying to say it's "apples and oranges."
:)

hjames

10-13-2010, 07:02 PM

Okay, I've been watching for a while, and I just won a pair of 2445J drivers in auction ... hopefully they will survive the shipping ordeal and give a chance for better mids in the 3 way system with the walnut horns ...

So you are saying forget the 2425s and adapters and just get a pair of the larger format drivers?
That's my feeling.

The smooth warm sound of the 2397 just didn't happen with the adapters and smaller drivers. I was using LE85s, but that shouldn't make a difference.

Widget
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=45575&stc=1&d=1273188348

hjames

10-20-2010, 06:57 PM

Package came today, 2 drivers. Box was marked 72 lbs - gawd,
The seller built a wooden box and bolted them to a plank.

I put a bottle of Feed'n'Wax on the floor next to them for comparison -
these things are HUGE - I had NO IDEA ...
Sad thing is I have a busy weekend and no time to play with audio ... sigh.

Besides, I'll have to find some way to lift up my walnut horns up so I can
get room enough to get these things on the back ...

48076

timc

10-22-2010, 06:17 AM

Cute drivers :D

hjames

10-22-2010, 08:08 AM

Well, I've got them in place. One needs a bit of brushing and repaint, but that's all external looks stuff - the sound is what I was interested.

Put on a Sinatra remaster - "One for my baby ..."
very nice improvement in detail, with just a hint of harshness at the top ... sibilance

Then we tried Aja - stepped through various tracks hearing nuances in the piano and guitar we hadn't heard. Again, just a hint of harshness in the horns ...

As a last touch, we put on Mark Knopfler - Shangri-La - Boom, Like that ... wow - modern, well done recording .. just stunning.

Got a busy weekend and won't have much listening time - but I can't wait to try out Bill Evans, Lyle Lovette and a ton of other things ...

Haven't opened the drivers so I don't know 'phrams are in there ... but its def a step up from the 2425s that were driving these horns, and they have to be clearer with that extra adapter/reducer out of the way ...

Oh, that's not scratches on the horns or cabinets
- I just didn't oil everything up for the pictures!

480844808548086

toddalin

10-22-2010, 07:50 PM

Looks like they were "Rode Hard And Put Up Wet," literally.

BMWCCA

10-22-2010, 08:02 PM

Are they defying the law of gravity, or are the drivers resting on the glass tops?

:applaud:

Mr. Widget

10-23-2010, 10:17 AM

Looks like they were "Rode Hard And Put Up Wet," literally.Yep... if they sound great, then.... cool, but I really doubt they will be operating even remotely near spec.

As a matter of course I would order a pair of 2441 diaphragms, yes I know they are expensive, and have them professionally installed. If I was in your area I'd use forum member oldmics... he knows his way around vintage JBLs and will be able to make these right.

Regardless of how they sound now, spending a few hundred dollars and putting them in the hands of a pro will make them sound better.

Widget

Zilch

10-23-2010, 04:15 PM

I'd be wanting to try SL diaphragms in those:

8 Ohms = D8R2450SL, $264
16 Ohms = D16R2451SL, $234

hjames

10-24-2010, 12:33 PM

I'll have to look into what drivers they have and what I do with them next.

Currently, they are both playing, and between the cost of buying them,
plus the outlay for the Richmond Scottish Festival we just got home from,
I'm not dropping any audio bucks for a bit ...

Oh - and it looks like I have a further answer for the great HK AVR7300 repair conundrum -
but I'll put that in the AVR Frontend thread!!

Altec Best

10-24-2010, 02:05 PM

Yep... if they sound great, then.... cool, but I really doubt they will be operating even remotely near spec.

Regardless of how they sound now, spending a few hundred dollars and putting them in the hands of a pro will make them sound better.

Widget

As Widget says.It would be a good idea to have them checked out for peace of mind not to mention lots of pleasure down the road.

It may help in removing some of the harshness you are hearing in the top end with replacing the diaghrams. I think a good cleaning of the gap is a good idea as well.With any driver that has some rust on them. The problem with rust is the driver is creating it's own dirt (Rust) that is magnetic so if it gets near the gap at all,the magnetic field will suck it right down into the gap. ;)

Added: Hey Heather I have used compressed air too.Also use a sticky note folded in half (Use Adhesive on note) too.And be patient it is very hard to clean a dirty gap thoroughly due to the magnetic field grabbing a hold of any metal bits and refusing to let them go not to mention the tiny gap to get anything in there in the first place.So just take your time and do it a half dozen times or more.Alternate between (Comp.Air & Sticky Note)I've had good results this way.Stay at an angle say 45 degrees and try to work it up and out even with the compressed air nozzle,you have to get under and pop it out so to speak. And it doesn't cost anything if you do the work ! Good Luck ! Regards ~ John

toddalin

10-24-2010, 06:06 PM

The problem with rust is the driver is creating it's own dirt that is magnetic so if it gets near the gap at all down it goes.;)

And it never sleeps. :o:

Perhaps your harshness is nothing more than crumbling foam impinging on the diaphragm.

hjames

10-24-2010, 06:40 PM

Not much chance to listed to canned music over the weekend -
it was all live on stage near Richmond, and MANY live pipers ...
but after all the traffic driving home today, and after we unpacked everything,
I did sit and play catchup to read some of the Sunday Washington Post.

So I put 3 CDs on to play while I read:

The Blue Nile - Hats (played for 3 songs)
Lyle Lovette - Joshua Judges Ruth (just played track 3)
Mark Knopfler - Get Lucky (played Border Riever and a few others ...)

The Post was the Post, what can I say, but the music was excellent!
I didn't hear the harshness I'd heard on the Sinatra last week ...
Tomorrow I'll swap the two horns and drivers and see if I hear any difference -
I know all the logic and I am not faulting or insulting anyone here, but honestly,
I have no intention of spending upwards of $500 to maybe fine tune what sounds excellent right now.
Especially when we are getting a new furnace and AC installed in the next 2 weeks ...!

Agreed that upping them to 2441 spec and replacing the diaphragms sounds like the right way to go -
but it'll just have to wait - maybe after Christmas, or after my Tax refund in the spring ...

BTW - only one driver has that loose paint and just starting some (exterior) surface rust - the other is perfect looking.

I'd be wanting to try SL diaphragms in those:

8 Ohms = D8R2450SL, $264
16 Ohms = D16R2451SL, $234

Yep... if they sound great, then.... cool, but I really doubt they will be operating even remotely near spec.

As a matter of course I would order a pair of 2441 diaphragms, yes I know they are expensive, and have them professionally installed. If I was in your area I'd use forum member oldmics... he knows his way around vintage JBLs and will be able to make these right.

Regardless of how they sound now, spending a few hundred dollars and putting them in the hands of a pro will make them sound better.

Widget

pos

10-25-2010, 01:56 AM

opening them and checking/cleaning the gap will not cost you a thing. You might have to change the foam pad as well, with this advice from 4313B in mind :

Don't use Arlene's glue in these back caps guys. ;) I used the Moyen recone glue in my 2445J's and there weren't any issues.
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?28127-Truextent-Diaphragms-in-JBL-four-inch-compression-drivers&p=283244&viewfull=1#post283244

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?28127-Truextent-Diaphragms-in-JBL-four-inch-compression-drivers&p=283259&viewfull=1#post283259

And then you can also apply aquaplas on the diaphragm, wich will give you a D8R2450SL diaphragm (titane, no ribs)

hjames

10-25-2010, 05:47 AM

opening them and checking/cleaning the gap will not cost you a thing. You might have to change the foam pad as well, with this advice from 4313B in mind :

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?28127-Truextent-Diaphragms-in-JBL-four-inch-compression-drivers&p=283244&viewfull=1#post283244

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?28127-Truextent-Diaphragms-in-JBL-four-inch-compression-drivers&p=283259&viewfull=1#post283259

And then you can also apply aquaplas on the diaphragm, wich will give you a D8R2450SL diaphragm (titane, no ribs)

Awesome advice - thanks! I've got compressed air and can find thin flexible plastic
to clean the gap (Mind the gap??) But where do I get a small bottle of Aquaplas??

toddalin

10-25-2010, 12:08 PM

I know all the logic and I am not faulting or insulting anyone here, but honestly,
I have no intention of spending upwards of $500 to maybe fine tune what sounds excellent right now.
Especially when we are getting a new furnace and AC installed in the next 2 weeks ...!

BTW - only one driver has that loose paint and just starting some (exterior) surface rust - the other is perfect looking.

One thing for sure about the LHF, there is no shortage of people who will help you spend your money..., whether you have it or not.

Obviously, it costs nothing/near nothing to check/fix the foam if that's a problem.

If the surface rust is light, try wiping it down with a rag with some WD-40 sprayed on it to both remove the light, easy stuff and help keep it from spreading. If the rust is on the faceplate, remove the diaphragm if necessary and be careful near the gap. (But this may not be a good idea if you intend to repaint it as the WD-40 will resist the paint.)

BTW, I and some other people use folded "Post It" notes to clean the gaps. The bit of sticky holds the dust so you can get it out.

Perhaps the original harshness you hear/heard is somewhere in the recording process and with intent listening, and perhaps a more revealing driver, you are now just first noticing it.

Happens all the time.

badman

10-25-2010, 01:37 PM

One thing for sure about the LHF, there is no shortage of people who will help you spend your money..., whether you have it or not.

Obviously, it costs nothing/near nothing to check/fix the foam if that's a problem.

If the surface rust is light, try wiping it down with a rag with some WD-40 sprayed on it to both remove the light, easy stuff and help keep it from spreading. If the rust is on the faceplate, remove the diaphragm if necessary and be careful near the gap. (But this may not be a good idea if you intend to repaint it as the WD-40 will resist the paint.)

BTW, I and some other people use folded "Post It" notes to clean the gaps. The bit of sticky holds the dust so you can get it out.

Perhaps the original harshness you hear/heard is somewhere in the recording process and with intent listening, and perhaps a more revealing driver, you are now just first noticing it.

Happens all the time.

Agree with everything- especially people helping you spend. Check the easy free/cheap stuff first, then proceed to more drastic measures. I've seen people recc recones for a 3mm puncture wound on heavy paper-cone 12" subs. Many things can be fixed with appropo care.

BTW, Todd, I've gotten my JBL (well, JBL drivers) horns together pretty darned nicely, you have some time to roll down the hill for a stopin sometime? PM me :)

Mr. Widget

10-25-2010, 01:44 PM

One thing for sure about the LHF, there is no shortage of people who will help you spend your money..., whether you have it or not.
I sent a pair of JBL 2441 drivers to Northridge back when they used to rebuild drivers there. They had "perfectly fine" original diaphragms. When the techs tested the rebuilt drivers both diaphragms failed the test. I had to spend a few hundred dollars extra if I wanted my drivers to be operating within spec. Now, it is true these 2445 diaphragms are more robust than the aluminum diaphragms, however even under ideal circumstances they are a bit harsh to some ears. I agree that the cost of doing this right isn't trivial, but Mercedes cost more than Dodge and it isn't due merely to marketing and country of origin.

Widget

hjames

10-25-2010, 02:04 PM

I sent a pair of JBL 2441 drivers to Northridge back when they used to rebuild drivers there. They had "perfectly fine" original diaphragms. When the techs tested the rebuilt drivers both diaphragms failed the test. I had to spend a few hundred dollars extra if I wanted my drivers to be operating within spec. Now, it is true these 2445 diaphragms are more robust than the aluminum diaphragms, however even under ideal circumstances they are a bit harsh to some ears. I agree that the cost of doing this right isn't trivial, but Mercedes cost more than Dodge and it isn't due merely to marketing and country of origin.:banghead:

Widget

No, I did not dismiss your comments, its just that can't change the rules of math for you!:bouncy:
The drivers were an off price sale so I'm not complaining about them ... $210 plus shipping seemed like a killer deal!

Otherwise, I'm spend up for the next few months and, no matter what I might like to do,
we're spending roughly $6k on a new furnace and AC the first week of November,
so everything else will have to wait.

Really! No more money, ain't gonna happen, nada ... casho no mucho ... REALLY!:D

Mr. Widget

10-25-2010, 03:06 PM

Really! No more money, ain't gonna happen, nada ... casho no mucho ... REALLY!:DOh, and I get that... I was just making the case for being thorough. Some people seem to think that going the extra mile to do things "the right way" is being wasteful when the half assed approach can be so much less costly.

Personally, I am a do without until I can afford what I want sort.

Widget

BMWCCA

10-25-2010, 06:05 PM

Mercedes cost more than Dodge and it isn't due merely to marketing and country of origin.That's what you think!

48123 48124

And this was originally intended to be the new Viper before the "divorce":

48125

Mr. Widget

10-25-2010, 10:56 PM

That's what you think!
Hey smartass, my company owns a Dodge branded Mercedes Sprinter van... it is a Mecedes with a ram's head unfortuantely glued on here and there... even though those unfortunate looking badges are stuck on it, the van is still excellent... but I think you know what I meant in my original post. ;)

Widget

hjames

12-18-2011, 06:04 AM

Latest update to the upstairs system ...
These are the L200 cabinets with the 2234 woofers, 2405 slots 2441 mid drivers on the walnut horns, with the Giskard equiv 4333 style crossover ...
or occasionally some secondary system, like the Magnepan MGIIBs (now sold) or the Dahlquist DQ-10s with external crossover & sub.

Usual sound source is a Carver 6250 receiver, iTunes from an airport express, or Harman Kardon CH changer (CD or HDCD - no SACDs).

I've been told I should really investigate tube amplification - that it give a lot of music I like a different kind of tone, or warmth ...

Well, local listening buddy Wilfredo (who now owns my old B-380) offered to let me demo his Jolida 102 ... an integrated tube amp -
which of course, means rearranging my stack of gear - so I swapped the carver Receiver for a Carver C1 I got a while back (thanks Wornears)
and - Sinatra time ... one for the road ...

54120

jbl_daddy

12-19-2011, 04:23 AM

That's what you think!

48123 48124

And this was originally intended to be the new Viper before the "divorce":

48125

Amazing how it favors the Mercedes SLR ????

PS. Run from the G class, mine never made it out of the shop even with an oil change for under a grand. Now I have a Chevy truck.

Just my 2 cents...

BMWCCA

12-19-2011, 06:58 PM

Just my 2 cents... And I appreciate that, but the post you reference is over a year old and was off-topic at that time! :banghead:

Hey19

12-20-2011, 07:38 AM

And I appreciate that, but the post you reference is over a year old and was off-topic at that time! :banghead:

Hey Heather, how's that tube amp sounding?

hjames

12-20-2011, 09:40 AM

Hey Heather, how's that tube amp sounding?
The Jolida is great - its surprising how much volume its capable of ...

We tried a bunch of CDs over the weekend -
Some music was great - AJA, Boz Scaggs (Dig), Seldom Scene (bluegrass) ,
John Klemmer, Bill Lasswell's remix of Bob Marley, some Klezmer stuff,
van Morrison's No Guru - excellent - let the whole CD play through! -
Accoustic Alchemy - Positive elements - all that sounded great ...
NIN The Slip - was amazing ... track 4 Discipline - big honking stompy bass stuff - incredible
yet LedZep II wasn't quite its thing ...

Time is tight right now - more details this evening ...

The custom Stromberg Carlson ASR-433 I got from an Audiokarma member is due Thursday ...
hopefully sometime around the holidays I can drop that in place and run through those tracks and some more music ...

But if it encourages me to relax and just enjoy listening to music again - wow, a real plus!