D130F Alway room for Improvement

[GeneT]

I've got a couple of D130F's, 4 ohms, set in homebuilt enclosures that I've been using for about 25? Years. I've taken an upswing in my audio interest lately and have been changing things around. A while back I tried to go small with some Bose acousti-(fill in own adj.). They're OK for AV duty but not to be confused with music speakers. We'll after reading a post that "D130 wants 4.6 cuft tuned to 44 Hz for "Extended Bass" alignment" I'm probably in for a good shellacking but I've got mine in 9.9 CuFt Base Reflex enclosures with 13" X 5" port, interior lined with fiberglass. As is they sound pretty good, nice base response. A short story to that effect is a friends father was, at the time, a VP for Sunn Music (guitar amps), after he heard the D130's he looked at me and said "they're not supposed to go that low". Still there is always room for improvement and a smaller cabinet would be a better fit with the room so I'm curious to read the opinions. I also have a couple of 123A-3's (8 ohm) that I was thinking of building up and tossing in with a sub but I like the D130's so much I haven't been very motivated to go there. Harvey Gerst if you're reading this my wife wants to know if you're romantically involved - She loves you (for making/designing the 130's) - Regards, GeneT

[BMWCCA]

Not a silly question since the rationale for the smaller cabinet size came from a spread sheet. Makes you wonder why JBL ever marketed the C35/C37 cabinets with the D130 if the extra size over the C38 Baron actually made the D130 perform worse. I have to believe JBL did at least some subjective listening tests back in the 50's that justified the larger cabinet. I know I've done mine and preferred the larger cabinet. Guess I'll have to dig out my old JBL speaker construction kit and check out what it tells me.

[Harvey Gerst]

I believe we (JBL) always recommended 4 to 6 cubic feet as the best bass reflex volume for our 15" speakers.

Gene, tell your wife that I'm married, but NOT "romantically involved". However, the commute to Washington would be difficult; would she be willing to relocate?

[GeneT]

BMWCCA / Harvey It is a pleasure and honor to rub up posts with folks so astute in the JBL Legacy. Thanks for the comments and if any one has definite information on reccomended volume and port size let me know, as I'd love to make them sound better than they do now. I'm not even opposed to trying a sealed box design. The JBLs are being driven by a HK 730 (30+ year old twin powered) receiver which has plenty of push so a small loss of efficeincy would be acceptable to achieve a better sound. I recently tried replacing the HK with a Onkyo TX-SR800 AV Receiver and while it works well as an AV unit it just wasn't the same for music.

Harvey, I guess I'll have to make sure the wife doesn't start dipping into the frequent flyer miles. - Gene

[Harvey Gerst]

I found this old chart that seems to be fairly accurate:

[GeneT]

Thanks Harvey! If I'm reading the chart correctly I'm tuned for about 41hz now with a volume just over 17,000. The port volume is reasonably close though the port aspect is a little off at 13*5. I was somewhat surprised at how much volume gets dropped for just a 4 or 5 Hz. I could go from 9.9 CuFt to 6 and still be in the mid 40's. I may have to give this a try. Gene

[GeneT]

You know if I rebuild the cabinets I may just have to update the supporting cast of speakers. Any reccomendations on mid ranges and tweeters that would go with D130F's? Cross over frequencies?
The wife won't mind, women in love are blind :D .

[clmrt]

075 / 2402's

N2400

:D

http://www.lansingheritage.org/images/jbl/catalogs/1967/chart.jpg

[Zilch]

We'll after reading a post that "D130 wants 4.6 cuft tuned to 44 Hz for "Extended Bass" alignment"Yeah, well, read the REST of what was discussed over there, and you'll make small mid/high boxes using them with 2435HPL and PT waveguides, with B380 subs under them.

[I have some recommendations for your 123A-3, also.... :thmbsup: ]

[GeneT]

Clmrt, thanks for the chart (and tracking me down across forums). I'll have to do some looking about. Gene

[GeneT]

There is a lot of pride of ownership floating about for the 075's. $400 - $500 for a pair.

[clmrt]

2402's aren't as bad.

[Zilch]

2402's aren't as bad.If you're just talkin' about the money.... :p

[clmrt]

True!

:bouncy:

[GeneT]

Here is an Old Thurston Howell The III quote (Jim Bacus) from Gilgians Island "Anyone who says money can't buy happiness, doesn't know where to shop".

Hoenstly though I don't care if I end up with Ring Radiators or Ringless Radiators as long as I sit down at the end of the day turn on the stereo and put a smile on my face.

Zilch I will go back and give the posts relative to Air Suspension a more careful read.

Here's a question on impedence. The D130F's are 4 ohm. When I originally built these my attitude about the extra midrange I put in and the 3 tweeters was, they are crossed over and I don't really care about the impedence (of the mid and high), as long as it's 4 ohms or greater and the sound comes out balanced. I do have a wire wound pot connected to the tweeters for adjustment. My inclination these days, without really knowing the tweeters mentioned would be to put in 2 8 ohm units in parallel, run them at 4 ohms and put the pot in to balance them. I'd be a bit concerned about a single tweeter keeping up.

As far as subs go I'm close to picking up a HSU Research VTF3-MKII. I've read nothing but good things about HSU and for that matter SVS. Cool thing about HSU is that there is an "ask" function on the web and Dr Hsu himself replied back with server possible suggestions based on setup, room size and room configuration. The man must believe in his product to go to the trouble of personalized service. I emailed on a week end and got a reply back during the week end (Dr. Hsu - get a life!). Pretty impressive. Gene

[Zilch]

Assuming the baffle thickness is 0.75", your 9.9 cuft cabinets with heavy fill are tuned to 45.5 Hz (blue).

If the fill is more like "typical," instead, it's 48 Hz (orchid).

In either case, its not a bad alignment in comparison to the one suggested by BB6P for "extended bass" (red).

A bit "boomy," perhaps, but you've got useable bass down to 38.5 Hz.

0.18 Watts worth, before you run out of cone excursion, for 93 dB max acoustic power there.

[8" 116A closed-box Minis will do that quite nicely.... ]

[Zilch]

Zilch I will go back and give the posts relative to Air Suspension a more careful read.Relevant for the 123A-3s, but not the D130s. BB6P recommended closed box for D130 is the black curve, above. Terrible, or rather, worse than what you've got.


When I originally built these my attitude about the extra midrange I put in and the 3 tweeters was...ACK!! :banghead:

[Harvey Gerst]

Here's a question on impedance. The D130F's are 4 ohm.Are you sure they're 4 ohms? Most of the D130F's were 8 ohms.

Check with an ohm meter. A 4 ohm speaker will have about 3 ohms DC resistance.

[BMWCCA]

While we're picking Harvey's brain:

In a recent discussion on re-boxing my 030 system (D130/N2400/075 as if you didn't know), Zilch ran the BB6B program which indicates the 030 would actually produce better bass in the Baron C38 compared to the C37 (what mine are currently). I found that hard to believe but it would be interesting to know the opinion of someone who was there at the conception. The discussion came up when I was considering putting the 030 in an L200 box or, now that Heather will soon be picking up the empty L200s, perhaps putting the 030 in Heather's old 4320 boxes. I certainly realize that Zilch knows way more than do I about DIY (that wouldn't take much, unfortunately), but I assume you all played with the D130 to determine optimum reflex cabinet size and that there'd be no reason for the C37 if the C38 worked better. Any comment? I certainly do appreciate your counsel here. My JBLs have been in my family since I was five-years-old (and my Dad purchased the first in 1958, so you do the math!). Thanks for any help, advice, stories, and for just being here to shoot the sh*t with us.

[Zilch]

In a recent discussion on re-boxing my 030 system (D130/N2400/075 as if you didn't know), Zilch ran the BB6B program which indicates the 030 would actually produce better bass in the Baron C38 compared to the C37 (what mine are currently).Well, no, what I SAID was:


So, what BB6P is telling ME tonight is if I want an improved (maximally flat) alignment for D130, it's put the 030 system in a smaller box more like Baron (or slightly smaller, even,) tune it properly, and run a sub with them.

The gist of the exercise being that it's largely pointless trying to get extended bass out of a D130; instead, align it to take maximum advantage of what it DOES do well, which isn't bass:

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=153305#post153305

That's why I'm suggesting that GeneT consider repackaging his D130s in boxes 1/3 or less the size of his present systems, and mate subs with them. By contemporary standards, D130 is a midbass driver, not an extended-bass woofer. Even originally, it was not sold as a "low frequency transducer," rather, as an "extended range loudspeaker." In the MI versions, D140F was the bass driver....

[Thom]

Here is an Old Thurston Howell The III quote (Jim Bacus) from Gilgians Island "Anyone who says money can't buy happiness, doesn't know where to shop".

Hoenstly though I don't care if I end up with Ring Radiators or Ringless Radiators as long as I sit down at the end of the day turn on the stereo and put a smile on my face.

Zilch I will go back and give the posts relative to Air Suspension a more careful read.

Here's a question on impedence. The D130F's are 4 ohm. When I originally built these my attitude about the extra midrange I put in and the 3 tweeters was, they are crossed over and I don't really care about the impedence (of the mid and high), as long as it's 4 ohms or greater and the sound comes out balanced. I do have a wire wound pot connected to the tweeters for adjustment. My inclination these days, without really knowing the tweeters mentioned would be to put in 2 8 ohm units in parallel, run them at 4 ohms and put the pot in to balance them. I'd be a bit concerned about a single tweeter keeping up.

As far as subs go I'm close to picking up a HSU Research VTF3-MKII. I've read nothing but good things about HSU and for that matter SVS. Cool thing about HSU is that there is an "ask" function on the web and Dr Hsu himself replied back with server possible suggestions based on setup, room size and room configuration. The man must believe in his product to go to the trouble of personalized service. I emailed on a week end and got a reply back during the week end (Dr. Hsu - get a life!). Pretty impressive. Gene


If the single tweeter you are concerned about is the 075 have no fear. Just take a look at the efficiency compared to the cones. You'll still pad the 075.
The 075 gets a real bad rap here and I'm not into an argument right now but when the 077 I think it's called came out the benefit that was pushed was pattern not harshness. With the 075 there will definitely be a sweet spot. Wonder what happens if you hang a lens in front of it? I've never seen it so I'm guessing it's not too effective.

[GeneT]

:blink: If I though I would take a beating for cabinet size, I am ready to accept my punishment for ignorance and mis-information. I knew these were 4 ohms. They both came out of a single Sunn lead guitar cabinet mounted top and bottom, so both wired in series yield 8 ohms. Perfectly logical but, thought I, I'll crack open the cabinet and snap a picture and let my luminance shine (my meter died a few weeks back). Yes they are 4 ohms but they are 130F-2's. I have been calling them D130F's for years and I stand ready to assume the position. Gene

[GeneT]

So much for self-flatulation. Now that I've admitted fault what's the difference between a D130F and 130F-2 other than maybe 4 ohms. I can't find a reference to 130F-2 using the seach engine for this forum or google. I'm waiting for the folks from Antique Road Show to call and tell me I have a national treasure worth at least 6 figures.
--
Nooo.. the single tweeter I was worried about would not be the 075's. I love good toys but I'd find it hard to pony up $400-$500 for a couple of tweeters. Most of what I have, I've bought pretty right and that is sweet music in it's self. I do really appreciate all the info, it fires up the imagination. Thanks - Gene

[BMWCCA]

Well, no, what I SAID was:
The gist of the exercise being that it's largely pointless trying to get extended bass out of a D130; instead, align it to take maximum advantage of what it DOES do well, which isn't bass...Got it. Though I like the sound they produce the way they are. Probably why I think everything else overdoes the bottom end, after fifty years of listening to these. Nobody ever complained and the JBL dealer insisted when I bought the L112s that I'd like them better than the 030s. It just never happened. Something about old dogs and new tricks, and me and my 030s are both old dogs. :dancin:

Not that I don't enjoy my L112s, L150As, and 4412As. Different strokes....

[Zilch]

I don't know what 130F-2s are, but I do know that JBL was kinda fast and loose about what impedance they put on the foilcals back in the olden days, and the only way to know what they really are is to measure them.

DCR will give an indication, but not an absolute determination of the actual impedance.

It's not on the Transducer List....

[GeneT]

We'll I'm unique, but it's not the first time...I digress. If I had to guess they are probably D130F's designated 130F-2 because they were parried up in a Sunn Cabinet. To paraphrase a recent commercial... I totally don't know what they are but I like them. I wandered back to the computer from listening to a CD of Lilly Wilde a regional Jazz artist doing Stormy Weather. Thank the Good Lord for music, the people who do it and the companies with a passion for presenting it properly. In any case I'll bring home a meter and veirfy the DC resistance. - Gene

[Harvey Gerst]

After 50 years of use, I suspect that the Fs will drop a bit, so some of the T/S parameters might be wrong by now.

[GeneT]

Well after reading a bunch of post on other threads what has started out as a simple maybe I could shrink these a bit has cascaded into,
I need to re-access the tweeters and midrange I'm using, with a preference towards $450.00 075's, or I could use 2402's, but the're a bit beamy, midranges will be dependant on where I roll the frequency over at which will depend on whether I shrink the cabinets, or not and then I can build the custom crossovers because the stock ones look to be mainly for 8 ohms, making sure that I use the "poly" caps instead of the electrolytics with inductors the size of small power stations making sure they are seperated and turned 90 degress. Not that this is bad I suspect it will all make a subtantial difference but it's not where I thought I was headed. Did I miss any major points :|? - Gene

[Zilch]

Did I miss any major points :|? - GeneYes, what Zilch said:

The money you'll spend on POS 075/2402s will buy you a pair of JBL's TOTL Be-diaphragm compression drivers, 2435HPL, used. An additional $200 will get you a pair of new JBL PT waveguides to mount them on. Make small (2.4 cuft) mid/high boxes tuned properly to stack on subs.

http://www.jblpro.com/ae/pdf/PT_WaveGuide.pdf

Get radical: do something RATIONAL with your D130s....

[clmrt]

WinISD =

2.4

Tune to 60hz

2x 4.5" vents, 4" diameter

Sound right?

[Zilch]

Lemme check again.

*click*

*click*

*click*

BB6P suggested HiFi (maximally flat) alignment for D130, black:

2.372 cuft gross
2.035 cuft net of driver and ports

56.95 Hz tuning
F3 = 89.46 Hz

2 x 4" port
5.52" long

OR,
2 x 3" port
2.213" long
2.302 cuft gross

With heavy fill (advised, probably, red)
56.33 Hz
F3 = 91.58 Hz
2 x 3" port
1.751" long
2.298 cuft gross

Cursor's at -10.05 dB

Build a test box and try it before committing.

24" H x 18" W x 12" D, 0.75" stock.

[I am but marginally competent at this. If the results are good, it was BB6P that did it.... :thmbsup: ]

[GeneT]

Yes, what Zilch said:

The money you'll spend on POS 075/2402s will buy you a pair of JBL's TOTL Be-diaphragm compression drivers, 2435HPL, used. An additional $200 will get you a pair of new JBL PT waveguides to mount them on. Make small (2.4 cuft) mid/high boxes tuned properly to stack on subs.

I did take a gander at the wave guide info so once again I was off doing homework. Zilch you're suggesting two way system with a wide frequency horn driver. It seems almost incredible that a single horn would cover enough of the mid and treble ranges. I probably missed it but what frequency were you using to crossover to the horn and would you have any suggestions for obtaining crossovers.

On the port dimensions for the box..
2 x 4" port <---should this be 1 x 4"
5.52" long 5.52" long ?

OR,
2 x 3" port
2.213" long

If I do decide to build these they won't be setting on B380 subs. Not that I have anything against them but money is an object and based on many feedbacks I've read I'd feel comfortable buying the Hsu VTF3-MK2 ($559.00 on sale), or possibly the VTF3-MK3 (699.00 New model with significantly more output, upgradable and Dr. Hsu's preference). I can't imagine needing two of either of them for my circumstances. I thought about going even less to the STF-3 but per the responce from Dr. Hsu,(http://www.hsuresearch.com), the suggested compromise was the VTF3 Mk2.

"The STF-3 does not plum the depths, so Pulse would not sound very impressive and you will not take advantage of the 16 Hz standing wave of your room. I would suggest stretching to the VTF-3 MK2 which allow you to add the turbo at a later stage to improve the low bass capabilities." He also suggested a low freq crossover of 80Hz which can be actively handled by the Onkyo TX-SR800 (feeding the HK730 as the Power amp).

I don't have BaseBox6 but I did a few years back play a little with PerfectBox 4.5 and today I downloaded Unibox. I thought I'd try running those and see how they matched up wit the curve you generated. Thanks for all the info. Gene

[Zilch]

It's 2 x 4" ports OR 2 x 3" ports of the specified lengths.

I'm active crossed (M553, with subs) at 1.0 or 1.2 kHz, depending on which waveguide type. VHF rolls off above 18 kHz.

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=147389#post147389

You'll likely want to use PT-F in your small boxes.

You can build two B380s for the cost you're quoting for one HSU, and have enough left over to buy an amp to drive them....

[GeneT]

Well That's interesting. I took a quick look for references to the 380's and at first blush they looked expensive. I must have been looking in the wrong places. The AV cabinet is about peaked out so it's an advantage not to deal with another amp (there)..but maybe I can put a lift kit on the sofa and start hiding them. - Gene

[Zilch]

At the end of this article:

http://www.lansingheritage.org/html/jbl/reference/technical/1983-subs.htm

Here's a pic of one (rear) built by forum member Hamilton. It's 2235H in a 4.5 cuft ported box:

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=82907&#post82907

[GeneT]

Zilch

Know anyone that want's to sell some 2435HPL's. They don't seem to be in plentiful supply (or any supply) used, so far, though I can buy new replacement diaphrams for $756.00 each.

Also when I asked about port dimensions I was thinking vent, not port. My mistake.

Gene

[Zilch]

You have to put 2435s on your "Favorite Searches" list at eBay.

They are occasionally listed as low as $199.99:

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=14935

Build your test box while you're waiting, and see if you like the midbass and midrange sound of D130 in it....

[johnaec]

If anybody wants to try PT-H95 horns, (90x50), with their 2435's, I've got a pair in mint condition I'll let go for $75, (less that half retail). I got them not realizing I couldn't use my 2447 1.5" drivers on them, but 2435's will mount right up.

John