Quality Capacitors in Low Pass filter Below 250Hz??

[soundboy]

Ok, I don't mean to be redundant about my love affair with Claritycaps....but....I had replaced all of the solens in a 3 way Dynaudio system in just the mid and tweeter sections. It was very spendy, about $200 worth of SA and PX series. The system consists of a 24W100 10" woofer, 17WLQ Esotec 7" mid, and a Esotec D260 tweeter, designed on LEAP about 10 years ago(crossovers acoustic at 250hz and 2500hz)....for the JBL nuts, I do have a 2245H and BX63A for the lowest end (modified with Mundorf silver/oils, Auricaps, etc).

Anyway, I had a 180uf cap in the 250hz low pass to the woofer. It was a parallel cap between two Erse inductors. Very large, for sure, and I had 80uf and 100uf solens in there. So, I bit the bullet, and replaced them with 6 each of the 30uf PX series claritycaps....damn, what an ear opener. Complete perfect blend now with the rest of the system. The bass (and guitar, vocals, etc, etc) is transparent, tight, punchy, natural....right. Spent over $125.00 just on the low end caps. It was worth every penny. Amazing difference in every way. I am aware of those who would just biamp, and forget it....but nothing is more focused or as good a blend as a LEAP designed passive....and even the best active crossovers (I have Ashly's in my live rig) have IC's, mylar caps, high and low filters, another power supply, etc, etc....which I feel add more coloration and haze than a good passive setup. Especially if the dcr of your coils is taken in to account in your box design and tuning.

If anybody wants to know, yes, it is worth it to replace ALL of the caps in a 3 way system with similar caps for a good blend, and nothing is more affordable at anywhere near the performance of the claritycap. Go humblehomemadehifi.com and check out a neat website with info, and go to e-speakers.com for pricing and ordering. Hope this all helps anyone that is contemplating what I have done. The SA series is more transparent, but the PX series is damn close, and less money for the really big values. And, yes, these caps are HUGE.

The photo is the mid and tweeter sections only, but you can see the relative size of these caps. My camera is a dinosaur, as you can see. Since the signal goes through dozens of feet of inductor wire, including a tiny voicecoil wire, I don't use huge monster wire as I once did for connecting components and drivers. 16 or 18 guage solid core does it just fine (bastardized from some audioquest speaker cable), and is easier to work with and do a neat job. 12 guage wire for a 3" or 6" length doesn't seem to be worth the audible effort....for me, anyway.

All of my systems have claritycaps now. 4406's, 4301B's, 4208's, and 7" Dynadio 2 way surround speakers as well. These caps transformed all of these already decent systems by an amazing margin. :bouncy::bouncy::bouncy:

I might also mention that I finally got rid of all of the cheap wire wound resistors, as well. The mills resistors I got from parts express are incredible in comparison. Pure, smooth, with way less hash and grit. At $3.85 each, it is a cheap improvement.

[Ian Mackenzie]

Bloody Brilliant Mate.

Took some balls to post that around here.:D

Ian

[duaneage]

Why did you mount the inductors that way? It causes mutual inductance and while I'm not sure about hearing the difference with the caps, you WILL have cross modulation with inductors mounted so close in the same direction..

[soundboy]

You're right, there isn't any audible difference, because 25 years ago I measured interference between coils with a buddy, on a very sensitive inductance meter....and the only way we could get the values to change was to put metal in the interior of the coils.....laying them on top of each other, or side by side varied things little (a few micro henries), as well...I also tend to lay components out according to the schematic, for easier hookup. But, now that you mention it, it must be the mutual inductance causing the increase in transparency, punch, naturalness and detail:blink:....so keep your coils a foot apart, and use electrolytics on all your bass speakers....you'll certainly save a lot of money...but you'll never know what you're missing:bouncy:

But seriously, the coils you are referring to in the picture, are for the midrange section (I mentioned this in the post). The two large coils in the bass section that the post is talking about (not pictured) are about 4 inches apart....same as before switching the caps out.

[duaneage]

Published testing would say otherwise, Most manufacturers avoid mounting them that way. They're your speakers, do what you wish with them. I'll just mind my own business.

If I paid hundreds of dollars for capacitors I would be convinced they made a difference, that's for sure. Of course if greater punch is what you want then throw a book in each enclosure and tune the ducts to a higher frequency, works for sure.

Great results can be had with room treatments and careful placement. The boundries and surfaces of a room affect the sound more than a 200.00 capacitor.

[Robh3606]

You're right, there isn't any audible difference, because 25 years ago I measured interference between coils with a buddy, on a very sensitive inductance meter....and the only way we could get the values to change was to put metal in the interior of the coils.....laying them on top of each other, or side by side varied things little (a few micro henries), as well...I also tend to lay components out according to the schematic, for easier hookup.

You completely missed the important point of his post. He's not talking mutual coupling changing inductance values, he's talking about coupling between the coils magnetic fields where one coil modulates the the signal in the other coil. Happens all the time in poorly layed out boards with inductors with close spacing and not turned 90 degree's to minimize it.

Rob:)

[soundboy]

This is my last post on this board. I am sure there is a modulation of small amounts if coils are too close. I don't think that was in any way the purpose of my thread, or post. I guess JBL didn't think it that big of a deal in all of the boards I have seen with coils side to side. Now, I am being called a liar because the only reason I can hear a difference, is because I spent hundreds of dollars. What is up with people on here? Have you tried anything other than stock mylars or electrolytics? Have you played music live, or run sound live, or built and designed speakers for 30 years? I don't take any of this personal at all....it is just a waste of time to post anything. I never said it was the best there is, or the only way, or the only poly caps to use....but if someone can't hear the difference between cheap mylar/electrolytic caps, and decent poly ones, and can only come up with a criticism of two coils that are only an inch apart....well, I have kids to raise and a life.

[Zilch]

I don't take any of this personal at all....Yeah, you do.

Get over it.

We enjoy your posts here.... :thmbsup:

[oldschool]

I'm firming up the cabinets on a pair of s3811s now, and going to replace the caps with clairty caps.The sa on the mids and hf,px on the woffer.

[taro]

I think better caps make a big improvement, the better the source, the more.
This in the whole range. :)
In my really mint pair of L96 I rebuild the network in 2 steps. First changed to 3113b type, which was an improvement. Then 2 month later changed all caps to Mundorf types (all bypassed). This was an even more improvement.
From top to bottom very homogen, clear and airy :bouncy:.

regards taro

ps. so it looks not pro it works

[L100t Owner]

I'm firming up the cabinets on a pair of s3811s now, and going to replace the caps with clairty caps.The sa on the mids and hf,px on the woffer.

I was going to rebuild a pair of smaller B&W's using either Solens or Sonicaps. These options are $40 or $160 respectively. The Clarity Caps look to be a much better option for way less (about $60 for PX and $110 for SA).

Link to Tony Gee's site:

http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html

The Clarity caps rate higher than either for less.

[L100t Owner]

Soundboy,

Thanks for the tip. I ordered the PX series last night for my B&W's. I would have ordered the SA series but I was not sure that they would fit in my speakers because B&W's use separate chambers for the crosovers. The PX rate as well as the Sonicaps but ware way less. $60 for caps for $600 speakers make sense. When my N801's need new caps I will go all out.

Thanks,

Chris

[Joe Alesi]

Hello Soundboy,

I dont think anyone is calling you a liar- did I miss something. Sure the cap upgrades are great- no one will argue that improving the capacitors isn't a positive step. There are certainly good technical reasons to expect capacitors to differ in performance, just as there are for inductors.

The concerns raised about coupling between the two coils is not an insignifcant point. If the coils are aligned and close there will be signal coupling from one to the other- I suppose you could call it a transformer with an air core with poor coupling. This is a measurable effect- Put a signal into one coil and monitor the signal on the other coil using an oscilloscope. You will see, depending on the orientation and spacing of the coils a facsimile of the signal on the unpowered coil. Many things in audio are subject to opinion and debate- this one is not- It is demonstrable on an oscilloscope as a signal that should not be there.

Be happy, dont leave- we are all friends here.

[L100t Owner]

Hello Soundboy,

I dont think anyone is calling you a liar- did I miss something. Sure the cap upgrades are great- no one will argue that improving the capacitors isn't a positive step. There are certainly good technical reasons to expect capacitors to differ in performance, just as there are for inductors.

The concerns raised about coupling between the two coils is not an insignifcant point. If the coils are aligned and close there will be signal coupling from one to the other- I suppose you could call it a transformer with an air core with poor coupling. This is a measurable effect- Put a signal into one coil and monitor the signal on the other coil using an oscilloscope. You will see, depending on the orientation and spacing of the coils a facsimile of the signal on the unpowered coil. Many things in audio are subject to opinion and debate- this one is not- It is demonstrable on an oscilloscope as a signal that should not be there.

Be happy, dont leave- we are all friends here.

Agreed. It looks like just the small inductor can be turned 90 degrees to avoid coupling problems (if the second board is mounted away from teh first board). I have seen spacers used in more severe situations.

In any event, I am glad to hear about these caps at such a reasonable price. The PX are just a little more expensive than Solen fast caps.

[Paul C.]

I didn't read Duane's post as a putdown of Soundboy's gear, but rather as a suggestion on something that could be easily improved.

Possibly turning one of the coils might unmask even more clarity in the system. Who knows?

Meanwhile, here is some reading on intermodulation between crossover caps, aka "crosstalk".

http://www.audioholics.com/education/loudspeaker-basics/inductor-coil-crosstalk-basics

Here you are... pictures, measurements, some solid experimentation here and some demonstrable results. This is exactly what Duane was talking about.

I would hope Soundboy would not even take it as "constructive criticizm" of any sort, but rather, a suggestion for further improvement of his system.

It is quite easy to lose the nuances in the written word, when you can't see facial expressions and voice inflections. Things can sound harsh when there is really no intent of that at all.

[Ian Mackenzie]

Air is great insulator for minimising all sorts of interference.

You should add looming cables correctly ,earthing and what makes a good and a bad inductor to a tutorial on building a good passive crossover.


I think that test is the extreme. I mean seldom would you experience this except under hi current/ power conditons such as doing the JBL test jig thing with an actual sign wave on a test network. I found it was more of an issue with a large iron core LF filter inductors being in moderate proximity to the air cores of an adjacent Mid or HF filter. The large flux field of the high powered LF inductor easily swamped the whole network. Hence this is why LF filters are seperated from the rest of a networkas a rule.

It would be more intuitive if you could demonstrate a good inductor from a bad one. He mentioned nothing about inductor vibration. Crappy air cores actually "sing" and this creates even more issues than the mess a passive network make of a nice driver.

[soundboy]

I was wrong to get so impatient with my response of a few weeks ago....I miss this place...so, to the point...
yes, I laid down one of the coils in the origonal thread starter pics....and it DID make a difference....even at low volumes....it sounds less, well..."electronic" and clearer, more focused.....it was very noticable to me....
Now that that is out of the way, I guess I just get frustrated....people are STILL putting solens in thier systems (UN biased), without reading the hundreds of posts on here first, and wonder why it sounds nasal, or bright, or whatever. Solens sound that way. It doesn't take a bunch of "higher priced" caps to make you "imagine" it. If you need a double blind test, knock yourself out...I trust my familiarity with all of my systems over the years, and music I am used to. All of us should...I was just trying to share my experiences and many dollars spent, to maybe help someone else make a decision on an upgrade, as to whather it was worth it, or not...
....I started one at a time with my smaller JBL's, then after hearing a dramatic difference in every respect, I jumped in on the big Dynaudio 3 way.....and it was the same result....because one of the things I noticed right away in my 4301's, 4406's, 4208's.....was that the BASS was much better, in detail, punch, clarity, naturalness, etc...

As a side note, I am from the old days, when JBL dumped a handful of coils in a metal case, side by side, and dumped epoxy over them....:blink::blink:....

But it DOES make a difference to orient the coils at right angles. Live and learn...it made the Claritycaps even more of an upgrade!

....never took it personal....just getting old and impatient sometimes....and I am "only" 49...:bouncy::bouncy:

BTW, I finally tried using some .01 Auricaps on a couple of the smaller systems....previously they had vishay 1843 .01's over the larger Claritycaps.....well, after a days long listening while at work, the Auricaps are more "alive" and detailed.....noticed it right away...without being over the top, or harsh, or too hot, etc... I like them a lot more. The vishay's were an improvement, and smoother than no bypass...but sounded drier and not as lively......I happen to like lively....sounds more engaging and musical.....I just don't like the "solen lively".....have fun everyone, Pete

[Zilch]

Hi, Pete. Glad you tried that and came back.

I just now swapped some Solens into a notch filter in place of Daytons.

Yup, they're "sharp," all right. :p

[Just not sure I don't like it, is all.... :dont-know ]

[L100t Owner]

I just received my Claritycaps in the mail. I will install them in a small pair of B&W's soon. Thansk again for teh heads up.

[Ian Mackenzie]

BTW, I finally tried using some .01 Auricaps on a couple of the smaller systems....previously they had vishay 1843 .01's over the larger Claritycaps.....well, after a days long listening while at work, the Auricaps are more "alive" and detailed.....noticed it right away...without being over the top, or harsh, or too hot, etc... I like them a lot more. The vishay's were an improvement, and smoother than no bypass...but sounded drier and not as lively......I happen to like lively....sounds more engaging and musical.....I just don't like the "solen lively".....have fun everyone, Pete

Pete,

Good news travels fast. I know Clark will be pleased to hear you tried this out.

Glad you like the Auricap blend.

Ian

[soundboy]

I wish I had some of my systems components from the good old days, with the newer capacitor technology....had a killer system back in the day with 2235H's, 2108H's, 2344's...and TAD 2001's....crossed at 250hz/1600hz...Mac MX110, Yamaha 2200...DAMN....:blah::blah::blah:

I don't have the time, or the funds to replace all that, and use killer passive parts on them....back then, it was electroshitic's on the bass, and mylar, or orange drops for the high's....still sounded great, but....wishing I could try the system out now.....the horn driver's are a friggin' fortune, and the 2108H's??.....well....dream on....

I can still remember opening the 2108 boxes, smelling the styrofoam and cone glue...and marveling at the magnet size...they fit through the hole with about a 1/16th inch clearance...and those beautiful foilcals:bouncy:....what was I thinking to part out the system in the late 80's? :blink::blink::blink:

If I can help just one guy try using claritycaps, or auricaps in their ENTIRE network, not just the tweeters....they would I am sure do amazing things for a 2231/35 in L300's, 2245H in 4345's, etc.....anyway, it's all just MY experience, not the word of god....if anyone else comes across reasonably priced caps that are neutral, I hope they post.....

The auricap bypasses sound even better today...they just sound"right on" to me.....way mucho nicer than none at all....cheers....I'm on my way to see Peter Cetera with the Seattle Symphony....it's a chick thing....but I still love his Chicago days...Pete

[Ian Mackenzie]

As a point of actual fact the 4345 crossover modification has already been performed as descibed above on a member's system by the undersigned. (with numerous other improvements some time ago)

The owner as no further cause to post on the forums.

He is at the summit. Any distractions would only detract from his enjoyment.

If there is sufficient interest an image could be posted.

[duaneage]

But it DOES make a difference to orient the coils at right angles. Live and learn...it made the Claritycaps even more of an upgrade!

Thank you for agreeing with my post.