AQUAPLAS [Archive] - Lansing Heritage Forums

Baron030

01-29-2007, 04:07 PM

Also, as a point of interest, I would like to know, just what does this magical stuff do? :dont-know

I know it must be special, because it is held in such great reverence around here that you would think it was the greatest invention since sex. Well, maybe not that great. But, still pretty high on the list.:rotfl:

What’s the technical low down on this stuff?

Baron030 :bouncy:

Zilch

01-29-2007, 04:56 PM

It adds mass and reduces resonance....

hjames

01-29-2007, 05:57 PM

It adds mass and reduces resonance....
Its from California - home of surfers'n'stuff -

Dude - Aquaplas is Sexwax! (http://www.sexwax.com/)

johnaec

01-29-2007, 06:06 PM

If "they" told you they'd have to kill you.:uhmmmm:

There are however some threads on the topic.Wasn't it determined some time ago that Aquaplas is Antivibe: http://www.blachford.ca/products/5_3.html Quote:"All of our materials are sold under the registered trademark Antivibe® and Aquaplas®."

As I recall, the biggest hurdle was that they required a minimum order of five 5-gallon pails or a 55 gallon drum...

Edit: OK - I found the original thread, though it appears a final consensus wasn't reached: http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=6653

John

Frenchie

01-31-2007, 04:18 AM

"In this application, the dampening material is highly effective in reducing vibrational resonance conditions in structures such as sheet metal panels. The dampening material is resistant to water and a variety of solvents, acids and corrosive gasses. The dampening material used in this application can be purchased from H. L. Blachford, Inc. and is sold under the trade name "AQUAPLAS" and can be purchased in sheet form or liquids. In this application, the "AQUAPLAS" sheets have a thickness of between about 6 mm to 10 mm. "

Robh3606

01-31-2007, 05:57 AM

That's it the 5 gallon minimum. Good luck!! I have tried twice to get a 5 gallon pail no luck yet.

Rob:)

Mr. Widget

01-31-2007, 09:10 AM

Is this breaking out thing AQUAPLAS?

How to re-coat those??
I am afraid those woofers are lost... fortunately new diaphragms are still made and available through any JBL authorized reconer or replacements are readily available via eBay. As Zilch mentioned, if you are the original purchaser of the speakers I'd expect JBL to pay for the recones under warranty.

That's it the 5 gallon minimum. Good luck!! I have tried twice to get a 5 gallon pail no luck yet.
5 Gallons!!!! You gonna treat your whole house with the stuff? :bouncy:

Widget

macaroonie

01-31-2007, 09:39 AM

Perhaps some motivated soul could do a Zilch and order a 5 of said Antivibe and decant it into say half pint measures ( or perhaps even less ) in order that the needy can get some. I'm sure that with a bit of experimentation a hand application method can be devised ie. dabbing it on with a small sponge.
Zilch you are in the wholesale end of the rag trade ( never mind the quality feel the width ) are you the man ?
Actually the thrust of my query was not in relation to woof applications but rather HF diphragms. I have never seen this on a dome, anyone got a pic to satisfy my curiosity. It must be a pretty thin coating and furthermore is it prone to peeling off as on the driver above :(

Titanium Dome

01-31-2007, 10:06 AM

You can use it on t-shirts. Application tolerances are much less critical. You might be wearing it right now.

http://www.t-shirtforums.com/screen-printing/t2916.html

(posts 4 and 5)

If you know a custom t-shirt maker, that might be a way to access a trial quantity.

macaroonie

01-31-2007, 10:07 AM

I,m just trying to fill a gap in my knowledge. Does it come in blue ? :p

Titanium Dome

01-31-2007, 10:34 AM

AquaPlas standard stats @ 30:1 airless application:

.53 wet weight pound per square foot
.34 dry weight pound per square foot
At that application rate and 20% shrinkage when dry, the resulting film is 1/32" thick (.794 mm).

It's like a problem on an aptitude test. Everything you need to know to answer the question is there. You just fill in the variables pertinent to your application and calculate. With tweeter applications, the calculations become quite exacting, or you just slop some on and hope for the best.

A five gallon, 55 pound bucket costs $198.

macaroonie

01-31-2007, 10:36 AM

It would be Ruff and Gruff, no as I said I,m just curious I never have seen a coated diaphragm. This is Scotland after all. I bet you dont know what a puddock is...but you will have seen one ;)

SEAWOLF97

01-31-2007, 10:58 AM

It would be Ruff and Gruff, no as I said I,m just curious I never have seen a coated diaphragm. This is Scotland after all. I bet you dont know what a puddock is...but you will have seen one ;)

Puddock is a Scots word for frog, which in turn has a special meaning for knitters

macaroonie

01-31-2007, 11:02 AM

Well from the information gleaned I am going to purchase some cans of that party squirty string stuff and give it a try. At least it peels off :p

Robh3606

01-31-2007, 11:32 AM

You can get a sample directly from Blanchard. I have one already and the DL-10 I have has a consistancy of spackle and has a decent amount of course material in the paste binder. That is the only material they will provide as a sample. The DL-30 which I think is the correct stuff is simply not available that way. The DL-10 may be useable but would need to be preasure strained to remove the course stuff and thinned a bit to help for brushing. I have some sample diaphrams Guido sent over in a trade we did to try out. Have not had the chance, don't have a spare driver core laying around to test them out.

Rob:)

Titanium Dome

01-31-2007, 11:42 AM

grumpy

01-31-2007, 01:59 PM

... I,m just curious I never have seen a coated diaphragm.

D8R2450SL (aquaplas coated diaphragm) from recent ebay auction. -grumpy

macaroonie

01-31-2007, 02:07 PM

So. Its not the stringy stuff after all and its not pink.
Seriously then it is light in weight obviously and presumably sprayed on with a mask and perhaps heat cured ? The T shirt link made sense an ex of mine used to print an expanding ink in her business.
Thanks for the pics. I can see it clearly now said the blind man. :applaud:

subwoof

01-31-2007, 08:09 PM

"I can see it clearly now said the blind man."

As he picked up his hammer and saw.

The coating on the diaphrams and cones may share the same lineage and intention, they differ a lot in execution and material.

When Meyer used the 2441 aluminum diaphrams in their ferrofluidized 2450's they added a thick layer of a super flexible clear silicone to the "diamond surround" area of the dia. I guess this combo worked well for them and when I sold some of these the japanese market gobbled them up..

Someday when the new "holycrap" 4" coil Be diaphrams become commonplace the chatter will reflect on the absuridity of tweaking the older stuff...until then it's massage,massage + fondle...and enjoy while waiting...:D

sub

Robh3606

02-18-2007, 03:19 PM

Finally got up off my butt and tried some of the sample material on a blown diaphram. The material sample they send is the beige colored material, the black is special order and not available. You can get a tube of black pigment at Home Depot or any paint store and use this to color the sample. So I quess the answer is it is available in blue if you want. Once you add the pigment and a little water, to thin it it, becomes very easy to brush. It passes the looks OK test and sticks real well but I have to try the aftermarket diaphrams to see if this is actually trashing the diaphrams of not. I still do not know if the DL-10 is the "right stuff".

Rob:)

Zilch

02-18-2007, 03:31 PM

Looks like it goes on neater than I expected.

The blue is a good idea.

Let that be the trademark of LHF DIY Aquaplazz.

[Particularly into BLUE here.... :thmbsup: ]

Earl K

02-18-2007, 10:47 PM

Nice Work Rob !

I hope that eventually you'll illustrate what's achievable in the reduction of distortion products, by doing CLIO studies of a "before and after" coating .:p

macaroonie

02-19-2007, 03:41 AM

10 ml pots for everyone, looks good Rob not messy at all. :)

Guido

02-19-2007, 04:28 AM

Thanks Rob!

Keep us informed how it goes with the AM dias.

DanMan

02-19-2007, 10:59 AM

a sound dampening elastic applied to submarines.

well according to the wikipedia anyway :applaud:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Albacore_%28AGSS-569%29

Robh3606

02-19-2007, 10:37 PM

Well here's the first crack using a beat-up 035ti I had laying around. Pre and post looks very close. There is some loss of level. Looking at the distortion levels they look lower but this is really subjective. Tried some FFT measurements and it looked like the odds and the upper harmonics is where the changes are. I have to go over it again. Here's some plots you can look at to see what you think. The Red and Blue are without. The Green and Orange are with. The first plot is THD, second in 2nd and Third is 3rd. These and the FFT measurements were all made without changing or breaking down the set-up. The level change is a real drop not an instrumentation glitch. The tweeter was mounted in an L100T cabinet and the driver was coated in the cabinet it was not removed from the cabinet or moved during the test.

Rob:)

JohnK

02-19-2007, 11:51 PM

Seemed like it would have made pretty good sandpaper. The weight of it on the cone seemed to make the low efficiency of the LE 10 even worse. Those rubbery Lans-alloy surrounds would be flexed to the limit while the cones would bring forth barely audible low notes.

Guido

02-20-2007, 04:29 AM

So you apply it with a paint brush, right?
What is the ratio aquaplas to water?

Robh3606

02-20-2007, 05:46 AM

Hello Guido

Just a dash of water and yes this was brushed on. It's more common sense than anything else. You add just enough to make it more spreadable than it already is. You can get it too act just like a thick no drip ceiling paint. You just have to be careful thinning it. It's a suspension and if you go too far the bulk material will settle out. I added more water for what I used on the tweeter. That was more like normal indoor house paint. At that consistency I think I can actually apply it with my airbrush. They didn't have the largest nozzle at the art supply store so I have to wait till they get them in again to see. Have to see what happens when I get that and I still want to see what happens with the diaphragms. Have you done anything with your sample??

Rob:)

Don C

02-20-2007, 08:37 AM

If you're going to do the mids on your XPL clones, I'd love to see the measurements on them afterwards. I like the effect of the aquaplas on mine. But they have the aquaplas on the inside, where you can't see it.

neanderthal

02-20-2007, 06:22 PM

I just had two LE14A's and two 128H's reconed by JBLPRO and I was talking to him about the white cones and he told me the white is real fine ground up coral...how he knows I do not know but that is what he told me the white is real finely ground up coral that JBL uses on the cones

Robh3606

02-25-2007, 07:48 AM

Here are the Impedance curves for with and without. There is a shift in the 2 peaks.

Rob:)

Robh3606

02-25-2007, 08:03 AM

Here's Impulse and Step response.

Rob:)

lgvenable

08-06-2007, 03:42 PM

I got samples of what they had, in the post previously mentioned.
Sorry, but I run a high speed coating line, and there isn't always a lot of time to fart around. I'll spend the time doing this if I can get help from folks who'll make measurements.

However, one more time I'll try and get the energy to do this. First, this material needs to go into a suitable binder. Folks were using Zinnser 1-2-3 to coat their 12" woofers to get them white correct?

You cant just cut with water, as that will screw up the binder to filler ratio; and you need to bring the viscosity up after making the dispersion with a suitable viscosity modifier to keep the filler from settling out.

At any rate, you need to add the Zinnser at the correct ratio to the Aquaplas, and then use hi speed dispersion (..> cowels dissolver at 3000 rpm type B blade). By dispersing the materials you might be able to get a paintable version; using a coarse spray head to apply it, or even careful brushing.

Personally I vote for spraying, since the idea would be to add as little mass as possible while maintaining the driver specs (kinda like maintaining lightweight wheels on a car you want to go fast --> large heavy wheels make the engine rev slower). Too much applied..> gotta be bad.

Gordon and others had some interest, and I'm back up building my home theater. If there's enough interest, I'll work with some folks with the right test equipment to complete a successful dispersion. If necessary, I'll order a5 gallon pail, if there's interest from enough folks--> assuming I cant duplicate it. Since I've been at stuff like this for 30 years, it shouldn't be too hard; as I'm sure Blanchard did it for JBL-> you can bet JBL didn't invent the dispersion, they just worked with JBL till they had something that worked.

(Any interest anyone Gordon? (you'd voiced interest in the last pass )

macaroonie

08-06-2007, 05:13 PM

Since I started this alls I can do is encourage you to pursue the 'truth'. If you are in the game and have the knowledge it is your duty to share:D

lgvenable

08-06-2007, 06:09 PM

making a aquaplas that woks will depend on some folks making measurements after we determine the applied dry weight. I suspect that there is both a target add-on weight and a stiffness target. We also need to enlist some other folks to make sure the electrical characteristics don't go to hell in a handbasket on application of a aquaplas variant. I'm tempted just to purchase 5 gallons, and then start farming out small samples so we can test it, then sell it at a reasonable amount to re-coop my cost for buying and shipping it.

Discus96 could help by sending me the pieces of the cone with the busted aquaplas to determine a coating weight.

Guido

08-07-2007, 03:42 AM

I have a factory coated 275ND dia as well as several 2425 dias. They are the same except the coating.
I'll weigh them all tonight to find out the weight of the coating.
I'm afraid that the serial production spread is more than the coating.
We'll see.

Does the attached file helps you?
Antivibe = Aquaplas

lgvenable

08-07-2007, 05:28 PM

Guido
I need to know the area the coating is applied onto, to determine a add-on weight per unit area. I'm sure the coating is applied to the paper in-line, using knife over roll or air knife, such that a conformal coating is applied. I"d be really surprised if it applied after the cone is formed
Larry

Robh3606

08-07-2007, 07:50 PM

I"d be really surprised if it applied after the cone is formed

Hello Larry

It would be easier to use a precoated paper but that does not look to be how they do it. Have you ever seen a seam in a JBL cone???? Same thing with the Ti/Al/Be diaphrams. I doubt the aquaplas coating could survive the die forming process for the diaphrams.

Here are a couple of shots of a 129H recone kit. The front is absolutely seamless. More importantly the back clearly shows the Aquaplas on the surrounds. So it had to be added after they were attached to the cone.

Rob:)

lgvenable

08-08-2007, 10:54 AM

it would definitively appear to be sprayed on, clearly the cone ribbing would be clearly defined in the aquaplas if it was formed after coating.

I'm calling Blanchard, and will get some DL-10 (the spackle type) and see if by high speed dispersion and a little Zinsser 1-2-3 we can't make our own version of the DL-30.

I'm sure they'll deny me the lDL-30 version as they have in the past; but let me first go see what we can do with the free stuff (sample that is).

Hoerninger

08-08-2007, 12:47 PM

A Google search for Aquaplas guided me to Audiokarma, from there to
http://www.blachford.ca/products/index2.html
who pointed from Aquaplas to Antivibe.

Blachford has a strategic partnership with Stanciewics GmbH, who is only 50 km apart from me.
http://www.stankiewicz.de/e/index.html

They do not offer Antivibe but BaryVibro:
http://www.stankiewicz.de/e/produkte/ia/korpdaempf1/baryvibro192.html

Would this be an equivalent to Aquaplas?
I am not so much in chemistry.
__________
Peter

Guido

08-09-2007, 01:00 PM

The coating must be less than 0.2 gram.

I couldn't find any different weight for 3 2425 dias and 1 275ND dia.

Ian Mackenzie

08-09-2007, 01:03 PM

JBL says the 275 dias was lighter.

What were using measuring with? The kitchen scales?

Guido

08-09-2007, 01:30 PM

JBL says the 275 dias was lighter.

:no: D8R275ND is EXACTLY D8R2425 with Aquaplas. But they need to make a bit mystery.

What were using measuring with? The kitchen scales?

:no: Precision scale

Ian Mackenzie

08-09-2007, 01:37 PM

:no: D8R275ND is EXACTLY D8R2425 with Aquaplas. But they need to make a bit mystery.

:no: Precision scale

What..like the imaginary equivalent tuning....:homer::rotfl::offtopic::applaud:

Zilch

08-09-2007, 01:45 PM

:no: D8R275ND is EXACTLY D8R2425 with Aquaplas. But they need to make a bit mystery.They certainly didn't have the same FR when I measured them.

I need to get back to working with those. There's way TOO much mystery here.... :yes:

Ian Mackenzie

08-09-2007, 01:57 PM

Zilch,

I would be interested to see what you find out.:)

Ian

Robh3606

08-09-2007, 02:04 PM

There are too many variables to see the weight difference on the mounted diaphrams installed into the ring holders. You need just the diaphrams to see the weight difference.

Rob:)

Ian Mackenzie

08-09-2007, 02:09 PM

Guido,

Have you actually measured a dias unmounted.

Rob has a good point.:)

Ian

Guido

08-09-2007, 04:17 PM

1st pic D8R275ND in 2426
2nd pic D8R2425 in same core

Lower Fs for 275 means slightly more weight

Guido

08-09-2007, 04:26 PM

They certainly didn't have the same FR when I measured them.

They are virtually equal but at the moment I can't find those graps I took 2 weeks ago :biting:

Guido

08-09-2007, 04:32 PM

Here are weights of several JBL dias

richluvsound

08-09-2007, 11:20 PM

Hey Guy's,

I have 4 pairs of dia's to Aquaplas. Judging from the post's Pehaps I'll should wait on it until a verdict has been reached.
The main reason for my ergency whas the NEW SCREETHCY Ti dia in the 2425. The mids seem a great deal smoother since some clever cloggs suggested using the L-pads. - 1db sounds much,much better. Thanks for the Photo Ian.

Rich, Keen, but new to this:)

Ian Mackenzie

08-10-2007, 03:02 AM

Its on my list of thing to help you with when I arrive and before I have too many Pints....:)

lgvenable

08-10-2007, 11:15 AM

The BaryVibro certainly looks like aquaplas in the description, and in the application. the picture they have of a post treatment sure looks like aquaplas.

I'll email them, and get samples if they sample. meanwhile I've got the a sample of the thicker trowlable coating coming, which I think can be high speed mixed down into a thinner coating with the proper rheology by adding water carefully, and perhaps a rheology modifier, like PUR based associative thickener.

Time will tell, but if it can be made down to a usable viscosity, then anyone wiith a small mixer (drill and a mix blade) could get a sample and follow instructions to make it; since the rheology modifier samples go a very long way (as they are used at a very small amount added to get thickening effect).

L

lgvenable

08-10-2007, 11:32 AM

I just talked d with Betsy at Blanchard about the antivibe (formerly Aquaplas).
She says there's only one version, it comes as a thick paste with complete technical instructions for use as a spray-able version or a trowl-able version.

Saty tuned for updates.

If you call and ask for samples they will send 1 gallon, however I didn't mention aquaplas, and I expressed interest in coating acoustic materials onto a web.

macaroonie

08-10-2007, 11:47 AM

Sly Dog :p

Robh3606

08-10-2007, 12:37 PM

I have had a sample from them for about a year now. What you get is a sample in a gallon can. It's not full. It's a heavy paste like spackle.

Rob:)

Guido

08-10-2007, 01:16 PM

it comes as a thick paste with complete technical instructions for use as a spray-able version or a trowl-able version.

This doesn't help you?

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=180345&postcount=41

lgvenable

08-13-2007, 10:29 AM

you need a unit weight per area applied to be able to determine the best technique to get even applications of the aquaplas onto the cone, so a weight difference divided by the measurement of the speaker cone area where applied = wt/unit area.

once you get the proper spray head and amount needed, then you can test applications onto fiberboard etc, until your technique is right and you're able to duplicate the amount JBL applies.

Larry

jblwolf

08-13-2007, 11:54 PM

so when it dries it will get rock hard or somewhat soft?can it be mixed to stay soft? I picked up a strange set up afew weeks ago.A ALTEC horn mounted to a JBL driver .the horn is covered with some type of coating,white/grey in color,looks like ribs on a cone of a Le14a,and very sticky.the inside of the cabinet that housed the horns was also covered with this stuff but much harder, looked like it had dried out. I just finished cleaning them up(drivers) and will post pictures.Im wondering if this is the same stuff or ??.I never saw a set up that mated a Altec 811 horn?/le 75-075-Klipsch shorthorn crossover-1 Stephens 103lx and 1-JBL le15.I guess it was a real home brew setup.:)

jblwolf

08-14-2007, 12:58 AM

I wish I had taken before and after pictures,after a good cleaning they came out pretty good from what they looked like.

ramin_audio

08-20-2013, 07:10 PM

Maron Horonzakz

08-21-2013, 07:10 AM

Why would you expect improvements,,,What problems are you having with those tweeters now ???

4313B

08-21-2013, 08:36 AM

According to G.T., it takes the "zing" out of the titanium. My own personal experience is that he is correct.

However... I have run across people who prefer the "zing", so... it would appear to be a personal choice.

I believe all the titanium domes in the LSR Series are aquaplased.

4343

08-21-2013, 10:24 PM

I know this is an old thread, but I am very curious!

Will this coating improve the sound of 052Ti tweeters? We will have weight gain, and it will lower the output at higher frequencies. Is this coating worth this sacrifice?
What improvements in the sound should I expect?

Thanks

You know that the 052 diaphragm has been designed to be easily replaced? New ones come with a new piece of foam that fits in the pole piece under the dome. It would be worthwhile checking that foam to see if it's still providing the damping to the Ti dome that it's supposed to. Probably it's shrunk back or become gummy by now.

Replacing that would be the first thing I would try.

ramin_audio

09-07-2013, 10:14 AM

I have DIY'd using JBL L100T drivers (later replaced the 035Ti with 052Ti). The speaker sounds very good. The only minor issue seems to be that the tweeter over-shoots! The sounds of cymbals and sometimes guitar solos, for instance, get a little bit too sharp.

Personally I have auditioned a lot of speakers in recent years, I haven't heard a loudspeaker that does sound as good as them within reasonable price-range. Only if I could improve the system and solve this issue, I believe I am done for now. I have spoken with my speaker pro, and he confirmed that coating the back of the dome will improve and stiffen the dome. I will give it a try.