What can cables do?

[Rolf]

Hi friends.

I hear that cables does something with the sound. I use mostly Monster of different kind. Tell you later in this post witch, if there is any interest.

[glen]

Cables can color the sound of a system more or less depending on the sensitivities of the components they are used with. Sometimes folks like the differences they hear, sometime they don't, and sometimes the coloration is inaudble. While some expensive cables are probably better built, are less susceptible to noise or interference, and may make better electrical connections than cheap cables I think many people use them almost like tone controls to tweak the sound of their systems to their taste. It often seems like manufacturers claims, and explanations of how their cable works, smell a bit like snake oil to me.

[Heinz]

"smell a bit like snake oil to me"

Agreed 100%

I use my eqalizer or toncontrols. Dont like to pay 2500$ for transparant cables with simple R/C-Link in a black box..... an sels whit a lot of "HokusPokus"

/ Heinz

[Don Mascali]

There is very little scientific data to back up the claims. A well constructed cable with proper shielding and of suitable gage for the application will do nicely.

Some people pay enormous amounts for a power wire for example. Miles of wire on the poles and romex through the house and four feet of cryogenic silver wire is going to be audible? :banghead:

Next, of course, you will need "Brilliant Pebbles" to put on your speakers to absorb spurious resonances. :blink:

I'm sorry if I sound unimpressed but these people are wasting money that can be put into better speakers and gear that WILL improve the sound.

[johnaec]

Several years ago, Ultra Sound, ('Grateful Dead's sound company), did extensive testing of speaker cables, including much of the top of the line stuff available then. Using all the test equipment at their disposal, which was probably more than just about anyone then, (including one of only two B&K FFT analyzers in the U.S. at the time), they could find no measurable or discernable differences between the most expensive cables and standard quality 10 and 12 gauge speaker cables, in runs up to 100 feet, (their longest).

I don't know if/what kind ot testing they may have done on interconnect cables.

John

[Roddyama]

26+ years ago Nelsen Pass wrote an article for Speaker Builder magazine called "Speaker cables: Science or Snake Oil". Here's a link to the article

http://www.passlabs.com/downloads/articles/spkrcabl.pdf

In the article he measures the impedance, capacitance, and inductance for a number of than popular cables as well as some "zip cord" and plots that against frequency. Have a look.

[SEAWOLF97]

Speaker Wire-
A History



more than you ever thot



http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm#reviewdares (http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm#reviewdares)

[Rolf]

Cables can color the sound of a system more or less depending on the sensitivities of the components they are used with. Sometimes folks like the differences they hear, sometime they don't, and sometimes the coloration is inaudble. While some expensive cables are probably better built, are less susceptible to noise or interference, and may make better electrical connections than cheap cables I think many people use them almost like tone controls to tweak the sound of their systems to their taste. It often seems like manufacturers claims, and explanations of how their cable works, smell a bit like snake oil to me.

Yes Glen, you are very right. Cables do color the sound, and that is why it is important to find cables who doesnt, and that is my whole point with this thread.

I have tried a lot over the years, from $1 to $Extreme. I have found out the the $1 cables is not suitable, and I have never heard a $Extreme that is worth the price, but somewhere in between there a cables that I find doing the least damage to the sound. The most difference I find with interconnects, and that is where I have put the most $.

Maybe we can start with this.

[Rolf]

Agreed 100%

I use my equalizer or toncontrols. Dont like to pay 2500$ for transparant cables with simple R/C-Link in a black box..... an sels whit a lot of "HokusPokus"

/ Heinz

Hi Heinz.

I do not use any equalizer in my setup, nor do I have any tone controls on my equipment. I have tried to "dress" the room so the system plays good. In my ears I have succeeded fairly good.

I can honestly say that I never have bought any product (Amp or Cables) that did not made an improvement. For me that is.

[Rolf]

There is very little scientific data to back up the claims. A well constructed cable with proper shielding and of suitable gage for the application will do nicely.

Some people pay enormous amounts for a power wire for example. Miles of wire on the poles and romex through the house and four feet of cryogenic silver wire is going to be audible? :banghead:

Next, of course, you will need "Brilliant Pebbles" to put on your speakers to absorb spurious resonances. :blink:

I'm sorry if I sound unimpressed but these people are wasting money that can be put into better speakers and gear that WILL improve the sound.

Yes Don, there are not much documentation in this. But because you can't measure much doesnt mean that it is not possible to hear a difference. Agree?

[Rolf]

26+ years ago Nelsen Pass wrote an article for Speaker Builder magazine called "Speaker cables: Science or Snake Oil". Here's a link to the article

http://www.passlabs.com/downloads/articles/spkrcabl.pdf

In the article he measures the impedance, capacitance, and inductance for a number of than popular cables as well as some "zip cord" and plots that against frequency. Have a look.

Interesting conclusion, and remember that much have been done since that article. (1980)

[Rolf]

Speaker Wire-

A History


more than you ever thot



http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm#reviewdares (http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm#reviewdares)



Interesting ... and confusing.

[johnaec]

26+ years ago Nelsen Pass wrote an article for Speaker Builder magazine called "Speaker cables: Science or Snake Oil". Here's a link to the article

http://www.passlabs.com/downloads/articles/spkrcabl.pdf

In the article he measures the impedance, capacitance, and inductance for a number of than popular cables as well as some "zip cord" and plots that against frequency. Have a look.I notice he tested all the way up to 100khz - I don't know if the Ultra Sound tests I mentioned went that high... I also notice he didn't appear to test any "garden variety" cables heavier than 18 gauge - I would have liked to have seen some standard 12/14 gauge tests included.

John

[Roddyama]

I notice he tested all the way up to 100khz - I don't know if the Ultra Sound tests I mentioned went that high... I also notice he didn't appear to test any "garden variety" cables heavier than 18 gauge - I would have liked to have seen some standard 12/14 gauge tests included.

John
Back when the "designer" cables were first coming out on the market, there were a couple of instances where there were extreme interactions between certain cables and certain amps. These interactions could very well have occured in the ultrasonic range (most amps being BW limited to the 100kHz to 200kHz range). In one case in particular, the amp, when coupled to the cables in question, would go into self destructive oscillations. In general and to a lessor degree, interaction like this could very well affect the sound quality.

One of the points he infers in the article is that the expected results with heavier gauge "zip cord" can just be extrapolated from the 24 and 18 gauge measurements.

[duaneage]

A few years ago there was an article in Speaker Builder that focused on making speaker wires from multiple strands of 24 ga beldon tlephone wire. The results were very good. He tested them to 100khz and for the money it was tough to beat.

i think that the room your in affects the sound a lot more than the patch cords, I would focus on acoustic treatments, noise reduction, and speaker placement before whipping out the credit card.

if all else fails just get the speaker cable elevators and lift the wires off the floor. Those that have been on this forum a while remember those little do-dads at 20 dollars each.

[Thom]

can I interest any one in a magnet for their fuel line.

[Steve Schell]

Speaking of magnet, since this is a wire thread I will throw in my usual recommendation for thin copper magnet wire. I live with 105dB+ sensitive horn speakers, and the currents between amplifier and speaker are indeed tiny. I have not heard a better speaker wire than single strand 26 or 28 gauge copper magnet wire; its clarity has bettered expensive audiophile cables every time I have made a comparison.

If thin magnet wire were the best who would tell you? Certainly not the firehose cable manufacturers! With high 90s sensitive JBLs one might want to jump up to 22 or 24 gauge; the cost of wiring a system would still be only a few cents.

[clmrt]

Would that be like Anti-Cables? That's one speaker wire I'd like to try.

Right now I have 18g zip that's oxidized to hell and back. System still sings, waiting to see if newly stripped (and tinned? lol) ends will improve it.

[SEAWOLF97]

If thin magnet wire were the best who would tell you? Certainly not the firehose cable manufacturers! With high 90s sensitive JBLs one might want to jump up to 22 or 24 gauge; the cost of wiring a system would still be only a few cents.

I have used the old 4 solid wire telephone cable with good results. (the stuff that was round and usually pink ,with the black, white,yellow ,red) twist 2 together and it does rather well for speaker line. It does break if you twist too much.

[spwal]

anti cables are damn thick and really hard to work with.

[Todd W. White]

Anyone ever heard of LITZ wire?

Invented in the 1930's for Nazi Germany, it worked REALLY WELL for ultra-low radio transmissions: the loss from the transmitter to the towers was greatly reduced due to the multi-stranded, individually insulated, large-gauge wire.

Following WWII, every so often some enterprising fellow came out with "special sound wire". Until the advent of the marketing genius behind MonsterCable, none of these efforts succeeded.

The problem with using Litz wire in audio work is that the principle is not effective in the audible arena (20-20 kHz).

Bottom line: Use wire that is BIG ENOUGH for the job. Crummy quality wires DO hinder the performance of the audio, so it's important to use a HIGH quality product, but don't forget: the overall, most important issue is wire gauge, not ad hype.

FWIW...

[Hoerninger]

1930's for Nazi Germany
Weimarer Republik (1918-1933)
Zeit des Nationalsozialismus (1933-1945)

In 1933 there was a real break.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_germany#Weimar_Republic
____________
Peter

[glen]

The problem with using Litz wire in audio work is that the principle is not effective in the audible arena (20-20 kHz).


Some explanations of how high end cables improve the sound are based on principles that are not effective in the audible range (20-20 kHz). I don't think even the manufacturers always know exactly how their cable is affecting the sound.
At the same time some cables have electrical effects that would not normally be audible, but may induce electrical effects in other components that will result in audible effects.

[Ian Mackenzie]

I am going to try the ZMC cables later today.

[coherent_guy]

Hi friends.

I hear that cables does something with the sound. I use mostly Monster of different kind. Tell you later in this post witch, if there is any interest.

Rolf, you just can't get any respect with this thread can you? After the other recent thread regarding wire it appears the general consensus here is that wire is much ado about nothing. But that does not mean everyone feels that way. Within that thread was the suggestion that those who would like to have a cable discussion should have one, and those who feel otherwise should not use that thread as a forum to declare cables are all BS. I think this thread is an attempt to start a cable discussion among the "believers" but has just turned into another "cables are snake oil" discussion so far. I will try to get this thread back on track. I believe this thread was intended to be a "believers" discussion, and while all are welcome, this thread is not meant to be a discussion on whether cables absolutely do or do not have an affect on sound. We have plenty of those now, can we be allowed to have one simply for us misguided cable-fools? ;) Rolf, do you agree with my statements?

Yes Rolf, I hear differences in cables, I like some of the lower priced Cardas cables with JBL's. I own Monster brand cables too, but prefer the Cardas. I also use Kimber with my Revel's, and find cheaper Audioquest cables to be good also. I do not like some brands, but I won't mention them at this point. I use transistor amps 95% of the time, and all transistor components otherwise. Anyone else care to share their cable experiences here?

[Ian Mackenzie]

Some explanations of how high end cables improve the sound are based on principles that are not effective in the audible range (20-20 kHz). I don't think even the manufacturers always know exactly how their cable is affecting the sound.
At the same time some cables have electrical effects that would not normally be audible, but may induce electrical effects in other components that will result in audible effects.


Todd, why to loudspeaker manufacturers like the Solen Litz perfect lay inductors?

[Ian Mackenzie]

I dont think there was anything seriously wrong in the other thead otherwise I would not have posted. The thing is you cannot have or be naive enough to imagine a totally one sided discussion on a public forum like this. It just won't happen.

There has been ample support both technical and practical of differing experiences with cables. As both Rodd and I pointed out, anything hanging of the output posts of an amp can be considered part of the load and each amp has a different way of seeing a load as it will the loudspeaker if it were directly connected to the amp. Therefore to make specific claims or even generalisations is not going to prove anything. Its a case by case thing and each to his own.:barf:

[Thom]

I'm probably wrong again but I was under the impression that litz wire was useful anytime you are dealing with frequencies that are high enough for skin effect to be a problem. I believe it is basically stranded wire with each strand insulated.
The reason I'm posting is some of you have got me worried. What happens if cable comes into contact with anti cable? It sounds dangerous. It's understood that in the name of science, sometimes you take chances, but some of you are working with gear that I hate to think of being damaged.
Steve, in your case, you are probably working with a very low power amp that just can't move all the electrons in the larger cable. At least I'm pretty sure that there is someone somewhere that would say that. Please be careful with that anti cable.
Do you think the right editor could base anything marketable (a publication not a contraption) on some of this thread. It's rather useless as it is but it contains some jewels. I think I would warn anyone who thinks they learned something on this thread to go back and make sure. I suppose it's possible, but I'd be careful.

[edgewound]

Todd, why to loudspeaker manufacturers like the Solen Litz perfect lay inductors?

Could it be?... that something else....say an "inductor" is being created from a "conductor" whose characteristic electromagnetic filtering properties are highly influenced by the geometry of the design?

That has less to do with the base purity of the magnet wire which should be of high quality in the first place.

The resistance of the speaker cable should be nearly zero in order to transfer the full current capability of the amp to the speakers without the cable heating up.

Ideally the cable would not be seen as a "load".

[boputnam]

Ideally the cable would not be seen as a "load".Ideally, no. But in reality, it is - it sums to the total impedance in the signal path, post amp...

[Thom]

Some explanations of how high end cables improve the sound are based on principles that are not effective in the audible range (20-20 kHz). I don't think even the manufacturers always know exactly how their cable is affecting the sound.
At the same time some cables have electrical effects that would not normally be audible, but may induce electrical effects in other components that will result in audible effects.

Just out of curiosity, if the manufacturers don't know how their wires work? How did they know to make them like they make them in the first place. I suppose that integrity doesnt automatically bar you from a job in marketing. But, I'm pretty sure it's nowhere near the top of the list of traits that they look for.

[remusr]

I attached a pretty brief but informative overview of cables I found on the web that most will find interesting. It may be that the skin effect and inductance issues have given rise to most of the exotic cables on the market.
Also note the following pasted excerpt from lavacables.com.....


What is skin effect and how does it affect tinned copper? Briefly, skin effect is caused by the magnetic field generated by the current flow in the cable causing electron flow to be concentrated more and more on the outer surface of the conductor as frequency increases. If this outer surface is coated with tin, which has higher resistance than copper, the cable will have a falling high frequency response and act as an attenuator to high frequencies. The silver coatings used on some popular cables have the opposite effect.


What is oxygen-free and linear-crystal copper? How do they affect sound in cables? There is a continuing debate concerning the use of oxygen-free and linear-crystal copper wire. These types of wire contain lower levels of oxide impurities and fewer crystal boundaries than standard copper. Since these impurities form tiny semiconductors within the cable, the theory is that the cable itself introduces signal distortion, especially of low-level “detail” information. In general these impurities reduce the wire's electrical resistance so are beneficial in high current situations. These audibility claims have been very difficult to document with scientific test equipment, but numerous listening tests suggest there is something to them.

[boputnam]

...it sums to the impedance in the signal pathFrom the wayback machine, August 25 2004, during the then frequent discussions of damping factor and output impedance:


A quick look brought this up:

Back-EMF, Back Electromotive Force
Describes the phenomenon found in all moving-coil electromagnetic systems, i.e. a speaker cone, whereupon, after the electrical audio signal stops, the speaker cone continues to move, creating a new voltage that tries to drive the output of the power amplifier. It does not sound good when loudspeakers do this, so amplifier manufacturers try to present a zero-ohm "dead short" to the loudspeaker. See Damping Factor.

Damping Factor
Damping is a measure of an audio power amplifier's ability to control the back-emf motion of the loudspeaker once the signal dissipates. When, for instance, a speaker cone continues to move after the electrical audio signal stops, it tries to drive the output of the power amplifier, resulting in less-than-pleasant effects. Designers of power amplifiers thus try to present a "dead-short" to the loudspeaker: the damping factor is defined as the ratio of the loudspeaker's nominal impedance to the total impedance driving it (amplifier + speaker cable). A high damping factor states that an amplifier's output impedance can absorb the electricity generated by the speaker cone motion, which will thus stop the loudspeaker's vibration. Effects of damping are most evident at lower frequencies; well-damped loudspeaker systems sound "tighter" at the low end because the woofer is not allowed to resonate after the electrical impulse is gone.

How on earth did humans ever exist without "cut and paste"? It must have been utter hell! :p

[edgewound]

Ideally, no. But in reality, it is - it sums to the total impedance in the signal path, post amp...

Yes. That's why the largest guage, shortest length piece of high quality copper is the best practice when in a home hifi environment.

We know that to be the case of bigger is always better in live sound work...where maintaining damping factor is crucial to low end performance....and to prevent cable meltdown fires... and the associated domino effect that can go along with that.

[JuniorJBL]

Well it would appear that all has been disclosed but I would like to add that, I made some cables out of a mix of silver and copper and did a blind test between some "high end cables" and mine. The result was my wife picked my cables. She said did I pick the expensive ones? I said ...... NO! I had to buy 1000' of the silver but that cost $203 then connectors cost $20 and I had the copper.
This was the end of the cable search!!

Just my 2c;)

[LowPhreak]

Could it be?... that something else....say an "inductor" is being created from a "conductor" whose characteristic electromagnetic filtering properties are highly influenced by the geometry of the design?



Don't forget capacitance also, as any cable's dielectric will hold a certain amount of signal for a certain amount of time.

~

I'll weigh in to say this:

Any 2 components you're joining will all have different electrical values, even 2 of the same model will be slightly different from each other. It is therefore difficult to predict exactly what a cable between them will do to the total circuit. It doesn't matter how well or poorly built either component is - in the end, any 2 given components will interact uniquely because of their particular load specifics.

I'll experiment with a few cable sets, and when I have a cable that sounds good to me between 2 components, I'll leave it the hell alone and not worry about it further. But I won't spend tons of money or 2.7 years trying to find one that works "best", and just because reviewer or consumer Joe Blow says, "X cable is awesome! But it costs $3000." or "Just use cheap stuff, it's all the same" doesn't mean either will work well in my system.

For example, I have 10', 10ga., teflon dielectric XLO Ultra 6 going to 4412's. Retailed at $330. but I paid dealer cost. To my ears in my system, they seem to like each other better than any other cables I've tried, from dirt cheap zip wire to 10x more expensive Nordost SPM Reference. That's the end of that story.

Who knows? With another amp or speaker, the U6 might sound like crap.

[Steve Schell]

We high efficiency type speaker folks should keep in mind that super low cable resistance and high amplifier damping factor are not necessarily good things. We have been fed the mantra of high damping factor and low cable resistance for 35 years now, but it was a very different story in the old days. The concept of critical damping is almost forgotten now, but was carefully considered years ago. It seems like a good time to dust off one of my favorite paragraphs from the literature:

"Sufficient damping of the vibrating elements of the units are provided in the magnetic circuit so that it is not necessary to provide additional damping from the driving amplifiers. In the past it has been customary to adjust the amplifier output impedance to a value of approximately one-half to one-third of the average speaker impedance. Improved performance can be obtained with the new loudspeaker when the amplifier and speaker impedances are approximately equal."

This quote is from the 1945 article "An Improved Loudspeaker System" by J.K. Hilliard and J.B. Lansing. In this article they were describing the new Altec Lansing Voice of the Theatre systems. The impedance of the 288 high frequency driver was 24 ohms; the impedance of the 515 woofer was 20 ohms; the input impedance of the dividing network was 12 ohms.

I am not sure how they achieved an amplifier output impedance of 12 ohms; they were using feedback push pull tube amplifiers, which usually have an output impedance of an ohm or less. Even the single ended triode amps favored by many listeners these days most often have an output impedance of only four or five ohms. There were a number of variable damping amplifier circuits that found favor in the 1950s, but went away when solid state amplifiers and floppy coned AR type speakers took over in the 1960s.

When a speaker with a powerful magnet assembly and light moving mass is driven from a low impedance source, the bass response is rolled off and the sound is often choked and lifeless. The total damping seen by a moving system is a combination of the forces acting upon it, and if the total is excessive the result will be a bit like someone holding their hand on the cone. I have found with compression driver/horn systems that amplifiers with a higher output impedance almost always sound more natural and provide a better frequency response. The thin magnet wire I spoke of earlier adds a bit of useful resistance as well, usually an ohm or two.

[Hoerninger]

I am not sure how they achieved an amplifier output impedance of 12 ohm ...
By adding positiv feedback with a voltage taken from a very low value resistor in series with the speaker as far as I remember. A highly forgotten technique, a high QTS speaker can be managed in an appropriate way too.
___________
Peter

PS:
After having read the follow up by Ian I remember an article from down under, may be of interest:
http://sound.westhost.com/project56.htm

[Ian Mackenzie]

Steve,

Enter the Transconductance amplifier. It is not un common for users of single high sensitivity drivers to prefer such amplification . Nelson Pass has recently introduced the First Watt range for the above application.

http://www.firstwatt.com/articles/current_source_amps.htm (http://www.firstwatt.com/articles/current_source_amps.htm)

[Steve Schell]

Hoerninger, Hal Cox (who knew Jim Lansing in the late 1940s) told me that Jim Lansing gave him advice on adjusting speaker damping. Jim told him to carry a few one and two ohm resistors in his pocket and add them in series with the speaker until the bass response sounded best.

Ian, I am familiar with Pass's work, but it has been awhile since I read up on it. Good stuff.

[coherent_guy]

We high efficiency type speaker folks should keep in mind that super low cable resistance and high amplifier damping factor are not necessarily good things. We have been fed the mantra of high damping factor and low cable resistance for 35 years now, but it was a very different story in the old days. The concept of critical damping is almost forgotten now, but was carefully considered years ago . . .

When a speaker with a powerful magnet assembly and light moving mass is driven from a low impedance source, the bass response is rolled off and the sound is often choked and lifeless. The total damping seen by a moving system is a combination of the forces acting upon it, and if the total is excessive the result will be a bit like someone holding their hand on the cone. I have found with compression driver/horn systems that amplifiers with a higher output impedance almost always sound more natural and provide a better frequency response. The thin magnet wire I spoke of earlier adds a bit of useful resistance as well, usually an ohm or two.

Very interesting. Regarding damping factor and it's affects, I have found a measurement done by one of the high-end magazines to be revealing.

First some background, damping factor (DF) is actually the quotient of speaker impedance and amplifier output impedance (OI). Tube amps usually have a relatively high output impedance, from about 1/2 ohm to several ohms. Transistor amps usually have much lower output impedances, say from 1/10 ohm downward to 1/100 ohm and less. So into an 8 ohm speaker, a tube amp with a OI of 1 ohm has a DF of 8. We can easily find the OI of a Crown amp with a DF of 800 into 8 ohms, which is 0.01 ohm.

Part of the magazines amplifier testing regimen is to connect an amp to a load that simulates a loudspeaker, ie has capacitance and inductance as well as impedance, instead of simply a load resistor. The frequency response of the amp into that load is then measured. What happens is that amps with high OI/low DF exhibit frequency response variations across the audio band of up to several db in some cases. The effect depends on the load itself, and I do not understand what aspects of the load cause greater variations in FR.

Here are some examples of this affect:

http://stereophile.com/tubepoweramps/601cary/index6.html

http://stereophile.com/solidpoweramps/725/index7.html

In the case of the tube amp, the FR variation is extreme at +/- 4db. The transistor amp still had a slight variation visible, but it was likely inaudible. Why this affect is largely ignored among audiophiles is curious to me to say the least! Likely that is because transistor amps don't suffer from it very much. The changes in FR will vary between speaker models and their differing load characteristics. This data seems to verify Mr. Schell's claim that adding resistance has a positive affect on the sound, which increases the DF and would minimize FR variations, but also refutes the idea that higher output impedance causes a better FR. Then again, perhaps the resulting FR is better if an FR peak was flattened by this affect.

I throw this into the mix because I feel the FR variations due to output impedance and speaker loads are largely ignored, and that some of the unusual cable designs that add capacitance and inductance will make this affect worse, thus making the cables audible. It also helps to explains why "micro wire" (my term) can sound good. Still, using Ohms law, one watt (2.83V) into 8 ohms gives 0.35 amps of current. How much current can micro wire take? Yes this works for high sensitivity speakers, but for others???

[Thom]

One reason that adding resistors might change the sound could be that the more resistance in the line the more the amp will act like a current source making impedance fluctuations less important, but I don't really know if 1 or 2 ohms is enough to make much difference or not. It does seam like 1 or 2 ohms is enough to make one feel silly for having spent their last dollar to get rid of that last little bit of resistance. In which case I suppose you could say that all that marketing babel was somewhat therapeutic as opposed to self serving.
I may have gotten off track just a bit at the end.

[4313B]

Hoerninger, Hal Cox (who knew Jim Lansing in the late 1940s) told me that Jim Lansing gave him advice on adjusting speaker damping. Jim told him to carry a few one and two ohm resistors in his pocket and add them in series with the speaker until the bass response sounded best.That's because Jim was building low Q transducers and they ended up in alot of incorrect volumes.

This is the easiest webpage to link to at the moment. He goes through the whole resistor ploy.

http://www.birotechnology.com/articles/mass.html

(The JBL model 124/2203 was a fun transducer to add series resistance to due to it's extremely low Qts of 0.14)

Here's the driver in the linked example. Red is no resistor in series and green is the resistor in series. It's very easy to see why some people would prefer the response of the green curve.

[soundboy]

All I know from 30+ years of live and home sound, is that wires do sound different. However, the only "expensive " wire I felt was worth it is the Monster studio pro 1000 at $2.50 per foot, that I use live for SR. Compared to standard Horizon, or no name 12 and 14 guage, the sound is more extended top and bottom, shakes the floor noticebly more, has more slam and punch, and has more smoothness and detail....anyone of my friends or bandmates could tell the difference, without telling them which stack had the monster hooked up to it. Don't care why, but it was worth every penny to me. At home I use 16 Guage monster, and Audioquest type 4 in different systems. The audioquest is slightly cleaner and more focused sounding....slightly, but noticeable in the high and low end. Since the total wire guages are similar, I suppose the stranded vs solid core has something to do with it. Which is better? I like them with different systems. Just do...and I can still hear to 16K pretty good...
I was horrified in the 80's and 90's when in pretty decent studios doing recordings, the monitor wire was cheap, 18 guage stranded wire. The playbacks sounded great. But I would never dream of using it now....except for surrounds. So it goes. Pride of ownership is some of it, but if what I use didn't sound richer, smoother, tighter....I wouldn't care...it just does:blink:

[spwal]

So i guess im confused...

this thread started out by saying that beefier lower resistance cable was best... so i scoured the net for the fattest guage audio cabel i could find. I think that I was about to pull the trigger on Belden 5000 from blue jeans cable company.

THEN,

you guys go on to say that with lower powered amps (ie my 25 wpc chip amp) i may be better off "choking" it with higher resistence cable to get better woofer control.

I have my Altec 19s ready and raring to go. i have gone this far, the las tthing i want to do is mis step and miss audio nirvana on account of 12 feet of wire.

Look, i have zip cord from Cambridge soundworks going right now, and i plan on using solid core paul speltz anticable (i loaned them out on extended loan while i searched for new speakers), but that is subject to change if the price is right.

Paul told me to go to wal-mart and get 12 guage spool in the automotive section. I really would feel more at ease if i got something more home audio-inclined.

:bs:

[Robh3606]

So i guess im confused...

About what?? There are several ways to look at this wire debate just like anything else in audio. Some will tell you heavy some light, some bi wire, some will say use 12 gage as it doesn't matter. How do your speakers sound to you now?? That's all that matters. If you want to experiment go ahead have fun. You have plenty of ideas here just go with what makes the most sense to you and maybe try something that doesn't. Your talking what 2 6ft runs of wire. This isn't rocket science and it's not like you can't change things down the road. The only way your are going to miss the boat is if you put too much importance into what should be a rather simple decision. Just relax and enjoy your rig.

Rob:)

[LowPhreak]

spwal -

Try what cable you have to see what sounds best to you, as Rob basically said.

I don't know who this Paul Speltz of anticable is, but if he's telling you to buy WalMart cable, why is he making/selling audio cable at all?

[JuniorJBL]

If you have access to some cat5 or 5e wire (try to get the Teflon insulator) then use 1 run per + -. you can also match color and use color for one polarity and white for the other.

These usually sound pretty good. I say this because this type of cable is inexpensive. and easy to get.

This should be an easy experiment. That is what others are saying. I would try anything that is lying around before going and spending money That could be better used elsewhere.

I would say do not fall into the wire trap. Find out for yourself, I did. I had some very expensive wires here in my house (AudioQuest Kilimanjaro) and I could not find enough of a difference between mine and that one. They also cost (Retail) $10,000. :blink:
No way!! just be objective to what you like and really listen for anything that you like about it's sound.

It should also be fun to try different wire so you can listen for yourself!!:D

[coherent_guy]

That's because Jim was building low Q transducers and they ended up in alot of incorrect volumes.

This is the easiest webpage to link to at the moment. He goes through the whole resistor ploy.

http://www.birotechnology.com/articles/mass.html

(The JBL model 124/2203 was a fun transducer to add series resistance to due to it's extremely low Qts of 0.14)

Here's the driver in the linked example. Red is no resistor in series and green is the resistor in series. It's very easy to see why some people would prefer the response of the green curve.

Giskard's post makes my point better than my previous one does, that is there are some basic electrical phenomenon that influences the resulting FR a driver or loudspeaker creates with the amplifier and cable interface (not to mention the room!) Although I would imagine that Giskard would not consider the affect of adding resistance with low Q speakers to be very complicated or exotic technically, many average Joe "audiophiles" (myself included) are not aware of these things. That is how the snake-oil cable business survives and thrives, and other areas of the audio biz too. This causes me to consider, how can I carry on a meaningful discussion on this topic (not to mention others) if I really don't know what I'm talking about. :blah: At least I am learning . . .

[LowPhreak]

Different cables DO "sound" different from each other. Based on my own experience with many components over many years, there is no one that can tell me that's not true.

BUT, most often those differences are not enormous and dramatic. They are usually small to detect, akin to raising/lowering the "Mid" or "High" pots on my 4412's by +/-1 or 2dB...that sort of thing. Certainly the differences IMO are not worth spending thousands of dollars to get a cable that does it. Inexpensive cables can do the same job.

But then, there are plenty of people with more money than brains.

[Thom]

That's because Jim was building low Q transducers and they ended up in alot of incorrect volumes.

This is the easiest webpage to link to at the moment. He goes through the whole resistor ploy.

http://www.birotechnology.com/articles/mass.html

(The JBL model 124/2203 was a fun transducer to add series resistance to due to it's extremely low Qts of 0.14)

Here's the driver in the linked example. Red is no resistor in series and green is the resistor in series. It's very easy to see why some people would prefer the response of the green curve.

Let me begin by acknowledging my engineering shortcomings and asking you to humor me at my level. I don't understand the two curves because they actually show more output at one point with the resistance in series, unless I misunderstand and they don't represent absolute values. (if I use wrong terminology but you can still understand then please put up with me, it's not intentional) I do understand how it could cause a curve the shape that is shown. Because math is not my strong suite ( I'm still looking for that actually) isn't it basically a matter of the higher the impedance rises in the driver the less significant the resister is and the lower it falls the more significant? If not then I guess Ill have to go back to the beginning, but that has to have an effect. You have created a voltage divider with one side dependent on all the things that effect the impedance of a speaker.

[4313B]

I don't understand the two curves because they actually show more output at one point with the resistance in series, unless I misunderstand and they don't represent absolute values.The curves I posted were normalized so one can easily see the system balance change. Here's the actual amplitude response. Obviously the overall sensitivity will drop with the resistor in place (green).

[Thom]

Thank you, Makes total sense.

[Rolf]

I like to point out again that a cable should not do anything to the sound. I believe that is the quest.

Of course a cable can have a sound of itself, make a difference, compensating something one of the other equipment in the setup.

[glen]

OK, This thread is hitting the limits of my understanding of physics, but I am loosening my grip on "12 gage zip cord is as good as anything out there" attitude.

1. The effect of adding resistance in series with a speaker increases bass output by reducing damping. Isn't this just allowing the speaker system resonance to ring more, while increasing "bass overhang" and softening transient response, giving a bassier, but less accurate rendition of the electrical signal it is getting from the amp?

2. Wouldn't the "undamping" effect of added resistance only be helpful with drivers of very light moving mass paired with a low impedance output (transistor) amplifier and that modern woofers with heavier moving mass would benefit more from big, low resistance cables that would allow the maximum damping factor?

3. The lowered impedance of multi twisted pair cable would seem to be more of a factor at higher frequencies. In the case of bi-amp or tri-amp systems is there a point where the lower impedance is no longer a benefit? Below 300Hz? 500Hz? 800Hz?

[LowPhreak]

I like to point out again that a cable should not do anything to the sound. I believe that is the quest.

Of course a cable can have a sound of itself, make a difference, compensating something one of the other equipment in the setup.

That's the "ideal" (cable adds no sound of it's own), but it will never be the reality - unless you can find a way to connect 2 components without changing the resistance, capacitance, and inductance in any way, and without picking up stray RFI/EMI through the connection.

"Wireless" is not the answer either, as the conversion adds more crap to the final signal than a good cable does.

[Zilch]

#3 - same (~6 ft.) Cat5e cable, all conductors together, top, and splt, solids vs stripes, bottom.

Split, the total path length is double, with half as many conductors, so the baseline impedance is 4x. 0.04/8 = 0.5% of speaker impedance.

[louped garouv]

"Wireless" is not the answer either, as the conversion adds more crap to the final signal than a good cable does.

I saw an ad for wireless PA speakers the other day....

fine print advertised it good down to 70Hz.... :banghead:

[coruphius]

:blink: i understand all the basics about speakers and stuff, but dont understand all the tech about all the 'pimped up' speaker cable. i kinda do understand about the thicker the cable, the easier the current flows (i think thats right:blah:) i havnt really picked up really any audible difference from speaker cables, but maybe i slight difference in loudness or maybe thats just my ears..

the cables i use for my system are 15 amp extension cable for my jbl 2225H subwoofers and 10 amp extension cable for my mains, centre and surrounds. i think that does the job..

[LowPhreak]

I saw an ad for wireless PA speakers the other day....

fine print advertised it good down to 70Hz.... :banghead:

:applaud:

[Rolf]

That's the "ideal" (cable adds no sound of it's own), but it will never be the reality - unless you can find a way to connect 2 components without changing the resistance, capacitance, and inductance in any way, and without picking up stray RFI/EMI through the connection.

"Wireless" is not the answer either, as the conversion adds more crap to the final signal than a good cable does.

Well, if you do like I have done, tried A LOT of cables, both interconnect and speaker cables you might end up with a conclusion. I must add that I have never tried wireless, as it has been impossible to get it in my area.

As I have said before, the major difference is in the cables between cd->amp->power etc. I have tried 10.000 $ cables, but ended up with 1/10 of that, witch TO ME sound better.

Do my cables add anything? I do not know. The only thing I know is that the result is good.

[MJC]

As I have said before, the major difference is in the cables between cd->amp->power etc.


I couldn't agree more.
In my audio chain I've always considered my dvd-a/sacd player as the weak link, a real cheapy Samsung from Costco. Using the analog bypass the sound is pretty good. But the cd dts music discs, I just got, were short of perfect, thru the coax input. So I've been thinking of getting another DVD-a player.

But yesterday I remembered that the digital coax running from that player to the receiver was different from the other two inputs. So I switched the one on the dvd with the one on the sat. Replayed the same cd dts disc, @ the same volume, BIG difference. Not as edgey and fatiguing as before.
Played that disc again, plus another, @ +5db more and still no head splitting fatigue.
The bad coax was an AR, the better one was a Monster 100. And I know there are better brands than monster.
Of coarse, I can still improve things with a better dvd-a/sacd player.

[Rolf]

And I know there are better brands than monster.


Sure there are, but at a much higher price. I can recommend that you (for analog signals) try the SIGMA model from monster. I use this from cd->pre-amp.

I can't find much difference on digital cables, but admit I have not tried many.

[MJC]

Sure there are, but at a much higher price. I can recommend that you (for analog signals) try the SIGMA model from monster. I use this from cd->pre-amp.

I can't find much difference on digital cables, but admit I have not tried many.
That is why I use monster. I use the Z100i interconnects @ $99/ea.
I just looked at the SIGMA on monster web site, bit pricey, $750/pr.

[LowPhreak]

Hey gents, I would say don't get stuck on one brand or price range. Try out a few different things if you can, and go with what actually sounds best to you in your system, but try to ignore the brand and price, and try to ignore the ad hype too.

You can take advantage of The Cable Company's "audition" program. That's where you pay for a cable first and they send it with the agreement that you can send it back to swap for another. They have many "demo" cables for this.

www.fatwyre.com

[Rolf]

Hey gents, I would say don't get stuck on one brand or price range. Try out a few different things if you can, and go with what actually sounds best to you in your system, but try to ignore the brand and price, and try to ignore the ad hype too.

Sure I have tested other brands, some with prices that make your hair stand up. The reason I use the different Monster that I do is because I did not find that the other stuff makes the sound cleaner/better.



You can take advantage of The Cable Company's "audition" program. That's where you pay for a cable first and they send it with the agreement that you can send it back to swap for another. They have many "demo" cables for this.

www.fatwyre.com (http://www.fatwyre.com)

I have not heard of this company in my area, but I have every opportunity to try whatever I want in my home.

[LowPhreak]

Sounds like you're all set then!