2360 or 511B over Klipschorn bass bin

[Ben Clarke]

Hey all, been a while since I dropped in about my 9844A. I have those up and running with some replacement Altec networks and they sound sooo nice.

Anyway, the next project for me is to take the Klipsch top hat off my Klipschorns and try some real deal stuff on top.

I have a line on some JBL 2360 and Altec 511B. I don't yet know what drivers might come with them, but I think the JBL has diaphragm-less 2441 (been a while since I saw them). No idea what would be on the Altecs. Aesthetics are not an issue, as they are in the process of being moved to the 21' x 16' studio in the basement.

I'd like to try to get this done as a 2-way if possible, but I'm not offended by a tweeter on top, either. I've done some reading today about JBL drivers for the 2360. I like the 2485 in that it is usable down to 200Hz, but it only goes up to 6KHz so the tweeter crossover point would be critical. The other 2" units I saw all had 500Hz as their listed lower limit, but some stated that they could be used lower with reduced power ratings. I can't imagine I'd be giving the mids more than 20W at home, so it's not scaring me to cross these at 400 as the Khorn is now.

Initial evaluations will be done with an Ashly XR2001 4-ch 2 way/ Stereo 3-way active network. 24dB/oct with a nice response adjustment that alters the response surrounding the crossover freq. I'm considering working up passive networks down the road.

These JBL drivers don't seem to be readily available & are quite expensive. I've also read snippets that the discontinued EV DH1A would work well. I have access to slight deals on Radian as well if they have a good choice.

Any suggestions or comments? I'm looking at trying the 511B as well, but I'm more enthusiatic about the big old Bi-Radial at the moment.

[Ben Clarke]

So... anyone have a driver they like on a 2360 from 400Hz up?

[Mr. Widget]

So... anyone have a driver they like on a 2360 from 400Hz up?I am fairly sure if you want a driver that responds well at 400Hz it will need to be phenolic... and none of the phenolic diaphragms will do a credible job up top.

If I ever finish my current project, I'll be trying out the TAD 2002 1" driver in a two-way... TAD claims that it goes from 450Hz to 27KHz... yeah right! :bs: It seems happier above 800Hz and on their own horn it peters out before 20KHz. You can get drivers that don't inherently go out to 18KHz and beyond to reproduce those frequencies but it requires passive or active filtering ala the Altec Model 19, the JBL 4430, and most of the work Zilch has been doing. This type of filtering does work, but I personally find the highs a bit tiring. I prefer not to mess around with a driver's natural roll off.


Widget

[Ben Clarke]

Well I guess I could live with a three way. The K bass bin is just too nice to forgo, but there's really no point in trying to get it to go higher than 400 or so. I don't want to compromise that critical mid-bass region by trying to get a compression driver to do something it doesn't want to.

[Mr. Widget]

...there's really no point in trying to get it to go higher than 400 or so. I don't want to compromise that critical mid-bass region by trying to get a compression driver to do something it doesn't want to.I couldn't agree with you more... in fact if you could get a bigger mid horn and move the crossover point down to 350Hz and use a JBL 2482 high power driver, that would be even better.


Widget

[Ben Clarke]

I thought the 2360 was good to 300 or 350Hz.

[Mr. Widget]

JBL says usable to 350Hz... likely optimistic, but worth a try. I doubt that it is a great idea to go below 500Hz though. A horn that really loads well down to 350Hz is quite large. I wouldn't try it with anything less than a 2482 or 2485 driver.


Widget

[Hofmannhp]

I am fairly sure if you want a driver that responds well at 400Hz it will need to be phenolic... and none of the phenolic diaphragms will do a credible job up top.
...I prefer not to mess around with a driver's natural roll off.
Widget

Hi All,

2 years ago I had also some tests with a mid alternative for my Klipschhorn...I tried different drivers, like 2470 (the only one in the house with < 500Hz), 2441 and of course the original.
If you take a close look to the original, you can see that it is (I hate to say it) built very cheep, like drivers were built 50 years ago....and so it is.
But the acoustical tests all show that it works very well with the K400.
All tests with other horns, like 2395 or 2390 hadn't the overall result like the original.
The difference between the original and the 2470 (adapted to the K400, in cause of 25mm to 18mm throat) was not very significant or better.

Also I found that the range between 200Hz and the stated 400Hz of the mid driver shows some difficulties for the original drivers....fact: the bass horn has his trouble with more than 200Hz.

Short: I set all back to original and took it how it is.....a special Klipschhorn sound.

my two cents
HP

[yggdrasil]

You can look at Iwata horns: http://users.pandora.be/philmundi/index.html

And at this thread: http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=82482&highlight=iwata#post82482

[Ben Clarke]

Hi All,

2 years ago I had also some tests with a mid alternative for my Klipschhorn...I tried different drivers, like 2470 (the only one in the house with < 500Hz), 2441 and of course the original.
If you take a close look to the original, you can see that it is (I hate to say it) built very cheep, like drivers were built 50 years ago....and so it is.
But the acoustical tests all show that it works very well with the K400.
All tests with other horns, like 2395 or 2390 hadn't the overall result like the original.
The difference between the original and the 2470 (adapted to the K400, in cause of 25mm to 18mm throat) was not very significant or better.

Yeah. I agree that Klipsch was the master of getting the best he could from commodity-level components. It would turn out to be a fruitless endevour to try to out-Klipsch him. I was thinking of this as a way to just try a different approach - use excellent quality components that need be neither practical to own in a typical home environment nor reasonable to manufacture.


Also I found that the range between 200Hz and the stated 400Hz of the mid driver shows some difficulties for the original drivers....fact: the bass horn has his trouble with more than 200Hz.

My recollection is that it's a limitation of the bass horn rather than the driver. If so there's not much to be done about it without major effort. A Jubilee would be a different story, though... I like what the bass horn is doing with the K400/55, so worth a shot. This is the worst that could happen:


Short: I set all back to original and took it how it is.....a special Klipschhorn sound.

my two cents
HP


Would mounting the 2360 on a baffle help its LF extension? The Klipsch bin is a good piece of real estate below it, and I could build a baffle around the JBL horn as well.

[L100t Owner]

Yeah. I agree that Klipsch was the master of getting the best he could from commodity-level components. It would turn out to be a fruitless endevour to try to out-Klipsch him. I was thinking of this as a way to just try a different approach - use excellent quality components that need be neither practical to own in a typical home environment nor reasonable to manufacture.



My recollection is that it's a limitation of the bass horn rather than the driver. If so there's not much to be done about it without major effort. A Jubilee would be a different story, though... I like what the bass horn is doing with the K400/55, so worth a shot. This is the worst that could happen:




Would mounting the 2360 on a baffle help its LF extension? The Klipsch bin is a good piece of real estate below it, and I could build a baffle around the JBL horn as well.

Check out the Klipsch forum. The Altec 511b is used very often. You can also built an Edgar designed tractrix (spelling?) horn pretty easily. I have the parts to use a 2470 and 2404 with a k Horn Bass Bin.

The bass bin is the limiting factor on crossover, not the K33.

[spkrman57]

How about a cone driven mid-horn for response down to 400hz easily and safely!

Ron

[alskinner]

Ben

First of all IMO the 2360 is one of the smoothest horns I have had the pleasure to work with. Having said that there are numerous problems in using in the setup you're talking about. Like Mr. Widget has stated 500hz is about all that you want to go with the standard 2240, 2241, 2245 or 2250s. Also these horns are definately not plug and play like all CD horns, the High frequencies have to be boosted in order to make the horn work properly. You can do this be designiing the equalization curves into the crossover or using a good external equalizer to bring the higher frequencies in line.

As you may know the 2360s were designed for theater use. Using them in a small space even the 21' X 15' room your describing, side reflections from the horn may present a problem without proper aborbtion panels.

I am not trying to discourage you just presenting some of the growing pains I took using the horns in a smaller space. On the other hand if you address the issues the 2460 is IMO a very smooth horn.
BTW the 2360s I have in my Avatar are crossed at 800 HZ. Personally I don't like to go much lower than that with the drivers mentioned above.

Regards
AL

[Ben Clarke]

Thanks for all the input, guys.

The cone/horn idea is valid, but not one I'm ready to explore right now. This whole 2360 thing was brought on by availability, really. I had been planning on just doing the 511B thing at a convenient time as they always seem to be around and affordable.

I read a little today about a guy using the TAD 1601a woofer to get better response up to 500Hz in the K bin. Pretty pricey, though and it is more than I can do right now. I'm trying to keep the financial impact to a minimum.

Seems to me the 2360 would get low much more easily than the Altec, especially with large-format drivers in the mix.

How dicey do things get at 400Hz with the 500Hz rated drivers? I can't imagine putting more than 10W or so into them. They'll usually be cruising along with millwatts, not watts.

As to the room acoustics, they are part of the plan even if I stick with the Klipsch mid/treble units.

[L100t Owner]

Thanks for all the input, guys.

The cone/horn idea is valid, but not one I'm ready to explore right now. This whole 2360 thing was brought on by availability, really. I had been planning on just doing the 511B thing at a convenient time as they always seem to be around and affordable.

I read a little today about a guy using the TAD 1601a woofer to get better response up to 500Hz in the K bin. Pretty pricey, though and it is more than I can do right now. I'm trying to keep the financial impact to a minimum.

Seems to me the 2360 would get low much more easily than the Altec, especially with large-format drivers in the mix.

How dicey do things get at 400Hz with the 500Hz rated drivers? I can't imagine putting more than 10W or so into them. They'll usually be cruising along with millwatts, not watts.

As to the room acoustics, they are part of the plan even if I stick with the Klipsch mid/treble units.

Check out th eKlipsch forum, many there afre doing just this. Graphs have been posted. The Altec 511B and K400 both go to 400 hz, and yes, you will be using very little power.

[Ben Clarke]

Well, I know the horns will get there ok. I'm also concerned that the horns will faithfully reproduce the difficulties the comp driver might be having at 350-400Hz. Besides the expense of a mistake with things crossed that low. If something goes wrong anywhere upstream it could easily cost several hundred dollars in diaphragms. These are different waters compared to $20 K77 diaphragms. But I guess that's the point, right?

The horns might not be perfect down that low, but they'll surely be different than what I'm doing now.

[Mr. Widget]

The horns might not be perfect down that low, but they'll surely be different than what I'm doing now.If the goal is different, you can't go wrong...:) and you might decide it is a bona fide improvement over stock.

If you want the very best attainable, I'd second the recommendation to use a large midbass horn and a cone driver... there are many choices... you'd of course end up with a three or four way though...


Widget

[Zilch]

http://www.jblpro.com/ae/pdf/CMCD%20TechNote.pdf

[Steve Schell]

Ben, a frequent criticism of the Klipschorn is that the bass bin doesn't quite make it up to the 400Hz. crossover point and a hole in the vital lower midrange results. I had Klipschorns decades ago, before I had the ability to measure anything. I would agree that the Klipsch small mouth mid horn and paging driver has got to go and you certainly can do better.

I have always liked a 300Hz. crossover point and a large, truly capable midrange horn and driver. As Paul Klipsch used to say, "The midrange is where we live." The Altec 300Hz. multicellulars combined with 290 drivers do a wonderful job from 300Hz. to about 5kHz, a convenient crossover point to a good horn tweeter. The 203B horns are my favorite Altecs, but the 803B is a close second. Both provide what I call "big goose bumps" vocal reproduction. I wish you were closer, as I have spares of these sitting around. These components are in another league entirely from the Klipsch midrange parts IME. The RCA 9448, 9458 and 9548 drivers also provide great mids on the 9594, 9595 radial and 12 and 15 cell multicellular horns; these show up on ebay fairly often.

I'm not a fan of the big JBL biradials, based on brief ownership years ago. My listening was done with the nasty sounding 2445J drivers, though; perhaps it would be a different story if the 2360s were used with large format phenolic JBL drivers like 2482s. In general though, horns with drastic changes in cross sectional shape or flare rate are to be avoided.

I do appreciate your desire to really get the mids right; they are the heart of a great system. The "high end" audio world has yet to discover such lifelike sound. Big industrial gear looks strange to the uninitiated in a living room, setting but it gets the job done.

[Hoerninger]

... The cone/horn idea is valid, but not one I'm ready to explore right now.

When time goes by, may be you want some ideas. Volvotreters site is a fund of informations.
http://volvotreter.de/new_system.htm
He uses the Klipschorn only as a sub. Btw. interesting remarks on the K33E.
__________
Peter

[Ben Clarke]

Thanks so much for all the continuing information, guys. Lots of stuff here of which I was only peripherally aware.

If I can source these JBL and 511 for what I'd like to pay for them I'll ne trying those to get a feeling for what they bring to the table - good, bad or just different.

Steve, thanks for the info on those units. Too bad indeed we are so far away - they look pretty big & heavy to risk shipping. Interesting, nonetheless...

[grumpy]

might also have a look here, if you haven't already:

http://www.alkeng.com/

-grumpy