Recommendations for a JBL speaker project?

[Evets]

Hello.
I discovered this site after I began researching the possibilities of building a pair of the L100s by buying individual parts as I find them and building the cabinet on my own. I was also planning on updating the original crossover wither newer caps and the like, as well as trying out oneor two of the new improved crossovers for the L100. ANyway, after reading through numerous posts on this site, I have noticed several comments along the lines of, 'Why bother with a DIY L100 when you can simply buy a complete set for less money than you would spend building a pair piece by piece.' With that comment in mind, I'm hoping that some of you will share recommendations for "better" JBL speakers for a project of this nature.

Here are some parameters:
I would like to keep this project at a low to moderate pricepoint ~ $500 or less for parts, not including the materials for building the cabinet.

I listen mostly to various styles of rock and jazz with the occasional foray into classical music.

I (read "The Wife") do not want gigantic speakers.

The speaker and its parts certainly don't need to be as omnipresent as the L100, but I would like to locate the necessary parts in a few months (or less) rather than a year or two.

By the way, I have been a member of the JBL club since 1983 when I purchased a pair of J325 speakers that are with me to this day. I look forward to something better.

Thanks.
-Steve

[mikebake]

Do a search for Project May.

[johnaec]

Look for components from the L100T or L100T3, (completely different beast than the plain L100). The L100T series is a total step up from the L100 in every way, and complete pairs are often on eBay in the $300 - $500 range. If you could find a good set, especially the T3, I wouldn't even bother with new cabinets. Note - the 12" 2214H LF speakers have foam surrounds, which often need replacing by now. Avoid any that have had the foam incorrectly glued on the front instead of the back of the cones. Also, the 4412 monitor uses essentially the same components, but includes level controls.

John

[speakerdave]

Don't build--buy. Buying the components on ebay to replicate a manufactured speaker is almost a certain way to see the actual speaker pass by for a bargain within a month after completing your hunt for parts. Why are speaker parts available on ebay? Because the chop shops know they can get more for the parts than they can get for the speakers entire.

Watch ebay for some 4412A's or earlier 12'-woofer JBL monitor style speaker and bid within your price range until you get what you want.

To assemble the parts and build a speaker economically you must be lucky enough to get four or five bargains; to get the whole speaker you only need to hit it right once. Even if you have to do some repair work, it still will work out most likely. Go to work reading in the LH library and in the threads and identify three or four models that would suit you, and just keep watching ebay and your nearest craigslist.

David

Here:

http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sby/msg/201068476.html

Get him on the phone, tell him how to pack speakers, pay him, make a deal.

[Phil H]

. . .Watch ebay for some 4412A's or earlier 12'-woofer JBL monitor style speaker and bid within your price range until you get what you want. . . .
I'll second that. Yesterday, a pair of ugly 4412's with bad surrounds sold for $113.50 + $80 shipping.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=001&item=110024898506&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1

[Don Mascali]

In budget:
I'd have to go with the L100t or L100t3. They are cheap and sound fantastic stock and the Xovers can be charge coupled and/or bypassed. There is plenty of info here for this.
The veneer on these leave something to be desired. So redo them in the exotic wood of your choice over the original cabs and presto! you've got one nice sounding and looking set of speakers. Really cheap too.

Streching the budget:
The next step up would be 4430 clones. Search "Quick and Dirty". Zilchs' work will blow your socks off. These are as good as a JBL gets IMHO.

DIY is where it's at.
Good luck in whatever you try.

Don M:D

[duaneage]

JBL has made good speakers since the 80's too. The L7 or L5 series are quite good and you can still find 4425 or 4412 systems that are only 10 years old, compared to 20+ year old systems.

As to staying away from woofers with the surrounds glued to the front, well, I have 2214H speakers that are incorrectly refoamed and they tested OK to me. If you can save a few dollars by pointing that out then you'll be ahead of the game. In a few years when they go bad you can glue them to whichever side you feel like.

I have the L100T and they are a great speaker. The 128H woofer in my 4411 is also a great driver and they used 128H in a number of systems. You can find them in the 400-500 range occasionally too. Check your local craiglist

[Mr. Widget]

In budget:
I'd have to go with the L100t or L100t3. They are cheap and sound fantastic stock and the Xovers can be charge coupled and/or bypassed. There is plenty of info here for this.
The veneer on these leave something to be desired. So redo them in the exotic wood of your choice over the original cabs and presto! you've got one nice sounding and looking set of speakers. Really cheap too.Some really great points... as others have pointed out, you will do better buying a complete system over buying ala carte and these two systems are real sleepers... their size won't entirely frighten your wife and they are capable of filling a modest room with fantastic sound... they are well balanced and all around good speakers. Also as Don points out, it is likely the cabs will show wear and the veneer won't likely be salvageable so you can tweak the networks and give them a facelift to get your DIY ya ya's out.


Streching the budget:
The next step up would be 4430 clones. Search "Quick and Dirty". Zilchs' work will blow your socks off. These are as good as a JBL gets IMHO.
I wouldn't go this route unless you are in love with the 4430 and your wife doesn't mind a pretty large speaker... I'd rather have the L100t3 over the 4430 in most instances... With improved networks in a pair of custom built well braced mirror imaged cabinets you'd really have something...


Widget

[Mr. Widget]

Watch ebay for some 4412A's or earlier 12'-woofer JBL monitor style speaker and bid within your price range until you get what you want.

I'll second that. Yesterday, a pair of ugly 4412's with bad surrounds sold for $113.50 + $80 shipping.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=001&item=110024898506&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1Those twelve foot woofers may be a problem for the wife... but the 4412s are also a really nice speaker and frequently under valued...


Widget

[Evets]

Thank you all for the sound advice and for helping narrow my search. You have already saved me time and money. Also, thank you for being fairly concerted in your recommendations; I wondered if I might receive a completely different recommendation from each person. I will get back to reading the numerous useful threads on this site and start scanning eBay and my local Craigslist (Los Angeles area).

At the moment the top candidates appear to be the 100T or T3 and the 4412 with the 4430 or Project Maywood (I haven't read the threads for this project yet) as additional possibilities. I probably should create a mockup or two to help determine the maximum size that still meets the WAF.

"Those twelve foot woofers may be a problem for the wife..." Yes, that would be a problem. I will stay away from speakers with 12' woofers. ;)

Thanks again for all the help. I'm sure I'll return with more questions as this is clearly the place to be for JBL expertise. I'm always open to additional suggestions and advice.

-Steve

[Evets]

Originally posted by Mr. Widget:
"I'd rather have the L100t3 over the 4430 in most instances..."

If you have the time and the inclination, I would like to know more about the instances in which the 4430 would be preferable to you.

-Steve

[Mr. Widget]

If you have the time and the inclination, I would like to know more about the instances in which the 4430 would be preferable to you.Many on this forum like the 4430s... even those who eventually traded them in on something else. For me, they can sound a bit hard up top and they don't have a very extended UHF response so they lack air. (I'm using the term air for a lack of a better description.) Also since the lower mids are handled by a rather massive 15" woofer (not 15', though that could be interesting) I find they lack some of the detail that systems like the L100T3 or 4412 as well as many others can offer.

Really I would only go for them over a smaller system if LOUD or BIG were more important than quality. If LOUD or BIG are of paramount concern, they are pretty good, but even then there are better alternatives... but very few that offer their quality at their current used price point.


Widget

[duaneage]

I second widgets comments on the 4430. Asking a 15 inch woofer and horn driver to do a 2-way is a stretch and you have to compromise somewhere. They are also really big and take a larger footprint than the tower designs. And they are probably going to be out of your budget unless you find a pair that need TLC

The 2214H driver in the L100T is aligned so that you get really deep bass, probably better than the 4425 monitor (both use the same woofer) and the T3 version features a different crossover topology that give them more presence. The tweeter and midrange are the 035Ti and the 104H3 respectively, both used in a variety of studio monitors. These drivers are commonly available used so should you throttle one, you won't spend a month looking for replacements (and they won't set you back a pile of dough)

I see more L100T systems than L100T3 on eBay, and then there is rare L200T that was a home version of the 4425 (to some degree). L200T systems are not affordable at all.

[Evets]

Sorry for the delayed response, I went camping for a few days.

Thanks, Mr. Widget, for clarifying your comments on the 4430 - the clarification is helpful. Also, thank you Duaneage for the additional explanation and details - they too, are helpful. I will keep my eyes open for the 4412, the 100T, and the 100T3.

THe pro monitor 4412 is interesting simply because I've never owned a "pro monitor" nor have I owned a "horizontal" speaker. What can I expect from a monitor in relationship to the more traditional commercial speakers? I have always assumed that pro monitors are designed to present all of the musical information at a low volume level in a near-field situation. Is that assumption correct? More importantly, can I expect them to fill my room (20'x13')? FWIW, my seated position is currently 9' from my speakers. Does this dimension dictate the L100T or T3 over the 4412? Finally (for now), I will need to use these speakers for HT as well as two channel listening. Is the 4412 shielded so that I could use it as a center channel if I wanted to?

Thanks again for all of the help.

-Steve

[Evets]

I noticed a couple of ebay auctions, one for a 4412 and one for a L100T, and I would appreciate some advice regarding their viability and pricepoints that would represent good value (as a generalization, obviously).

The 4412 has had the surrounds replaced, but not with JBL parts. Is this a cause for concern? I suppose I could always refoam the speakers with JBL surround foam...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=190026798934&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=009

The L100T needs refoamed woofers and either repair or a new cabinet (not a problem for me).

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=120027717919&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=002

Mostly I'm wondering if your experienced JBL eye notices anything I should be especially concerned about with either of these options, and what you would consider a fair price.

Thanks.

-Steve

[Zilch]

I suppose I could always refoam the speakers with JBL surround foam....JBL does not supply surrounds; it's all aftermarket.

The presumption is that if the foam is shot, the spider's tired, too, or aged, so full recone is the only factory-supported refurb option.

[Evets]

Thank you, Zilch.

[SUPERBEE]

For 5 bills just buy a set of OG L-100s or 4311s

[Zilch]

ANyway, after reading through numerous posts on this site, I have noticed several comments along the lines of, 'Why bother with a DIY L100 when you can simply buy a complete set for less money than you would spend building a pair piece by piece.' With that comment in mind, I'm hoping that some of you will share recommendations for "better" JBL speakers for a project of this nature. If the economics don't matter that much, and what you want is a "project," DIY speakers using L100 components (or some of them, at least,) would be a worthy pursuit. The answer to the "Why bother" question is you then have the potential of coming out with something actually listenable when complete. Here's my suggestion(s):

1) A cabinet sized and tuned to have 123A-1 play well. Closed box seems to be a valid, if not optimum, approach (EBP=48). BB6P suggests 3.3 cuft. (below, blue,) but I'm liking a bit smaller, 2.8 cuft. (orchid,) with heavy fill, to keep the excursion within spec. Bass response (-10 dB) goes down to ~27 Hz with that, i.e., quite good.

See here for more:

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=12036


2) Mirror-imaged offset vertical-in-line driver alignment like L100T:

http://manuals.harman.com/JBL/HOM/Technical%20Sheet/L100t%20ts.pdf

For horizontal, I'd look to 4412(A) as a model, though it might take some measurement and testing to optimize.

http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/Studio%20Monitor%20Series/4412ALR.pdf

Reminder: One side only shown in the pdfs. You want to build a mirror-image pair.


3) 035tiA tweeter in lieu of LE20/25. That'll get you some decent HF, which stock L100s can't deliver.


4) A crossover designed to tame LE-5 "forward" response.

[I mentioned mirror imaging, right? ;) ]

[Evets]

Superbee,
I appreciate the practical and sensible advice. What does "OG" mean? Original? If I can find a good enough deal I may just do that. However...

...after all the threads I've been reading and advice I've received, I'm now leaning towards a pair of 4412s for starters. I'm worried that the JBL bug that many of you seem to have has bit me as well. I've even been looking into the 4345 as an expensive, long term project for the period after the 4412 (and/or L100T project) is completed.

Zilch,
Thank you for the additional advice and the corresponding links. As I mentioned above, I'll probably start by buying or DIYing a pair of 4412s, but if I change my find or find a good deal on L100 components I will certainly follow your advice. I found a new Dennis Murphy designed crossover for the L100s on another forum that might be fun to try.

Ideally, the project will involve building new boxes to the original specs and updating the original crossovers with newer and hopefully better caps and the like, but I'm flexible and open. This will probably be my first of multiple JBL adventures.

Thanks again.

[Mr. Widget]

This will probably be my first of multiple JBL adventures.
:bouncy: You're doomed! :bouncy:


Widget

[Zilch]

Ideally, the project will involve building new boxes to the original specs and updating the original crossovers with newer and hopefully better caps and the like, but I'm flexible and open.Follow the link in the first post here:

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=10603

I cannot post what I said when I saw they weren't mirror-imaged.

It would have been SO easy.... :(

[Evets]

:bouncy: You're doomed! :bouncy:
Probably, and it wouldn't be the first time!

Yes Zilch, I saw that post as well in the midst of all my reading the past few days and I thought the same thing. Fortunately for me, I have already built several DIY speakers that other people have designed so I'm well-versed in making square boxes with mirrored arrays of round holes :). I've even developed a moderate level of soldering skill, especially since I started using the super-expensive Cardas solder.

The pair of 4412s currently on ebay are not mirror imaged so I'm thinking that if I can get them for a decent price I will build new cabinets so that they are mirror imaged. If the price gets too high I'll simply wait for something else. I will adapt the project to whatever ebay, craigslist, recycler, and the like provide.

[duaneage]

I made these (http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=6775&highlight=4411+clones):

They are very flat in response and a little dry, just like white wine. I had the woofers for years ( they needed refoaming of course) and I gathered the crossovers and other drivers from ePay. Not counting the woofers I already had I spent about 300 dollars on the project, + 80 getting the woofers repaired.

I ended up with a great studio monitor and saved a little dough. I also get the satisfaction of making them myself. I changed the design a bit by having the baffle board overlap the sides instead of being set in and the port was seamlessly blended into the baffleboard.

I like 'em a lot. They sound like my AKG headphones in that the bass and treble are balanced and not overbearing. The 4411 had a great crossover network with a third order HF network (with a zobel), a great 2nd order network for the MR with (IMHO) proper attenuation networks, and even bypass caps on the woofer capacitors. This network was my favorite of all these 12 inch monitors and I thought it was a key to the sound.

[DavidF]

....Is the 4412 shielded so that I could use it as a center channel if I wanted to?

-Steve

Uh-Oh. None of the above are shielded, if that is required with your TV monitor. This may change your plans.

DavidF.

[Thom]

A standard D123 sounds pretty good in that size cabinet as oppossed to the white one. It's livelyer and you can cross it higher. It's more efficient, you can still use that midrange it's not as efficient but you can cut it in and run them together till you bring the tweeter in never loved that tweeter maybe 066 or someone elses high efficiency tweeter. You get a lot more of a "JBL" sound than jbl ever put in a small box. I've got L100's something a little bigger than L100's built around the same components except for a white D130 and som heathkits that are 100's with green woofers and no mid. I used to (early 70's) sell jbl systems in knock off cabinents encluding just a 123 and a le20 against an L100 they even used to build sub woofers around the 123 (stuck it in what looked like a long wooden wistle) its the only yhing that can sound like a big jbl system in a small box. I've put a standard 123 in a 100 cabinet but it likes a larger vent. Yiu can make it sound just about like the L100 woofer by really stuffing the box if that is what you want. If you like live concerts (the kind played on large pa systems) this is as close as you can come to bringing it home in a small box. It will play many times louder than the L100. Jbl's D131 won't have any bass at all if you put it in a small box. Thiss woofer should be easier to find. I don't think it's considered highly desirable. Just my opinion.

[Zilch]

They even used to build sub woofers around the 123 (stuck it in what looked like a long wooden whistle). Its the only thing that can sound like a big jbl system in a small box.I'm having difficulty envisioning that sub. Can you post a pic or a sketch?

[Thom]

it was called an air coupler. It was maybe 8 feet long (I don't know the exact deminsions and I don't know if they were critical or not. I wouldn't think they were critical because you wouldn't want it to play one note like a pipe but it might be critical I'm not sure) It was about 16 inches wide and 4 or 5 inches thick. their was a port the full width of it about 6 inches from one end and about 5 inches across. On the opposit side from the port begining just a couple inches past the port the D123 mounted, magnet out. It originated before stereo and like other large speakers became less popular after stereo. I'm not sure if it was known that frequencys below a certain point were non directional or not. I Don't remrmber how it sounded to much but we mostly sold 030 and 001 systems in C40 and I think it was C34 cabinets and they might not go that deep but when thats what you are used to an LE15A with a passive radiator was so that you could hardly stand to listen to it unless it was an hour past closing yhe bag was half empty and the knob on the c26 hooked up to the 2105 was mostly up, and the dead were playing then the s8r's in the store sounded really good
but otherwise the passive radiator sounded sloppy. Most of what you se at concerts are some sort of a D130 equivuilant the le15 types are mostly there for base. If they don't try to straight from an le15A (I'm sorry I never learned the 4 digit numbers I didn't even know there was a D120 till I read it hear the other day to us they were D131) to a 375 in a stadium why would I want to make that jump in my living room. I'm guessing you can make a good subwoofer around that speaker but in the home That's all. My friend added 6 feet and passive radiators to his parragon and in went a lot deeper but it got sloppy. Anyway I've always been going to try that aircoupler (in '73 when people I worked for took over the Hi Fidelity shop in sacramento there were several just laying around. Anyone read about the driver I described elsware. I've always wondered if they were made just for that install or if they existed at one time.

[Evets]

I'm resurrecting this post briefly to provide a conclusion of sorts. I have purchased a pair of 4412 monitors that are in need of a refoam. I originally planned to refoam the woofers myself with the aid of Rick Cobb's kit and Bo Putnam's "how-to" thread, but have ultimately decided to have Edgewound do that part of the restoration as he is highly recommended by so many members of this forum. As handy as I am, I can't see myself doing as good a job as a certified JBL repair tech with 18 years (?) experience and plenty of recommendations from people in the know. In the meantime, I'll touch up the walnut cabinet (iron out a couple of indentations, touch up a scratch or two, and give the veneer a good oiling.

So that's were this thread and all the advice it contains has led so far. Of course, I still have plans for at least three more JBL acquisitions/projects, including a pair of 4313Bs, a DIY center channel to complement whichever monitors wind up in the HT rig, and a DIY 4343. Thanks again.

-Steve

P.S. And yes, I did acquire a mirror imaged pair.