Venting Voice coils

[jaybird]

For you reconers That ocasionally have to use aftermarket voice coils, what is the best way you have found to vent them?

[edgewound]

I usually don't, but if you must....slip the VC over a wooden dowel or some other cylinder, shimmed snugly. Use a leather punch and hammer to make your vent hole. Good luck. Your cylinder needs to be solid enough to take a hammer strike without going out of round.

I think you get the idea.:) Maybe you could come up with your own, better solution if that one doesn't suit you.

[jaybird]

Thanks Edgewownd, I don't feel comfortable about doing, even with a new paper punch!

[edgewound]

You're welcome Jaybird.

Don't use a paper punch...it'll just screw up the VC former. It can't punch without distorting the collar....that's why you need to back it up with some sort of die.

[Guido]

There is no other way.

[Maron Horonzakz]

Yes there is !!!!!!!

[Guido]

Really ?
:jawdrop:

[edgewound]

Yes there is !!!!!!!

So why don't you enlighten us, so we will be better humans?:D :p

(Frankly...I don't give a sh**);)

[Maron Horonzakz]

What did they do before you were born?;)

[scott fitlin]

Before this turns into war, lets not call each other names.

FWIW, I wouldnt attempt to ventilate a VC former myself, maybe a skilled reconer should do this as you are doing something the manufacturer didnt.

[edgewound]

What a stupid suggestion:barf:




What did they do before you were born?;)

Well Scotty...for some unknown reason... Mr. Maron has decided to turn this into a war, with his unfounded "stupid" remark....that he so conveniently deleted...and then his last quoted comment. Maybe he could explain the need to be a jerk...or maybe he can't explain and it just comes naturally. Some people can't help themselves...I'll say a prayer for him.:)

[Maron Horonzakz]

Edgewound your all wound up. Take your medication & calm down. There is a solution. Go through your Voice Coil mags its in there. You want me to do your home work too? Dont be so thin skinned. A little more study & you can graduate from speaker school.

[edgewound]

Edgewound your all wound up. Take your medication & calm down. There is a solution. Go through your Voice Coil mags its in there. You want me to do your home work too? Dont be so thin skinned. A little more study & you can graduate from speaker school.

Seems to me you forgot your meds today, Maron. I'm fine....What's your problem?

Well...I've tried to refrain...but it's awfully difficult to let you get away with it. My skin is thick enough....you're just an *******....and you asked for that.

[Maron Horonzakz]

Edgewound....I,m fine too.....But there is a solution to cooling that VC.....THINK....And stop Huffing around. :D

[edgewound]

Edgewound....I,m fine too.....But there is a solution to cooling that VC.....THINK....And stop Huffing around. :D

What does Arianna Huffington have to do with it?

[Robh3606]

Well I am going to quess you vent through the voice coil cap like the old Altecs. Didn't they vent through the cap vs. the manget. Used felt or a fine mess cloth??

Rob:)

[Maron Horonzakz]

Oh God......No wonder California Is 4 hours behind everybody else.;)

[Maron Horonzakz]

A good solution Rob !!!!!!!!!!!!!:applaud:

[edgewound]

Well I am going to quess you vent through the voice coil cap like the old Altecs. Didn't they vent through the cap vs. the manget. Used felt or a fine mess cloth??

Rob:)

Yes Rob, that's right...Altec did. The problem with that... was an air leakage point that makes enclosure tuning a more manual process. The vented magnet is a much better means of cooling the voice coil by forcing more air over it through the pressure of the dust cap. The vented cap is an afterthought, to reduce chuffing and aid cooling...but Maron was asleep in class that day;) :p .

[Maron Horonzakz]

Yes...But I did graduate... :D

[Robh3606]

Hello Edgewound

Air leakage??? From where?? I thought they had essentially a sealed spider like a JBL. Were they vented as well?? Didn't know that. I am looking at an Le-14A and if you closed the magnet like the C version and vented through fabric like the C how would you get air leakage through the spider??? Is it porous so it breathes???? I always figured they had resin on them so they didn't. Never tried blowing air through one to see.

Rob:)

[edgewound]

Hello Edgewound

Air leakage??? From where?? I thought they had essentially a sealed spider like a JBL. Were they vented as well?? Didn't know that. I am looking at an Le-14A and if you closed the magnet like the C version and vented through fabric like the C how would you get air leakage through the spider??? Is it porous so it breathes???? I always figured they had resin on them so they didn't. Never tried blowing air through one to see.

Rob:)

Through the spider, through the coil....the spider is somewhat porous, and the vintage Altec spiders are quite lightweight to get the Fs down and the efficiency up. Anywhere you open airflow on the front of the speaker cone, you get a leakage point.

[Maron Horonzakz]

Tannoy did it.

[Robh3606]

Oh OK:hmm:

So JBL's approach avoids that. If you look at the newer low power compression drivers they have vents into the space under the spider. It makes sense they are porous to help move air around the coil.

Cool:D

Rob :barf:

[Maron Horonzakz]

And TAD does that...;)

[edgewound]

Tannoy did it.

That's right...with Dual Concentric...so does Radian Co-axials, P.Audio and McCauley Co-ax's....and Eminence Co-ax's.

That has nothing to do with the original question in this thread of how to vent a voicecoil former....like a D/K/E series JBL.

I you havent noticed, Maron, most aftermarket voice coils being used for these JBL speakers don't have a vented voice coil former....so that makes them different from factory OEM.

I've learned that from experience..not reading Voice Coil Magazine that was ordered to stop publishing for a time because they got in trouble for publishing Patent Office art without permission.

That's why my subscription stopped...and I've attempted renewal...again...But I knew your brilliant solution even without Voice Coil Magazine...and so did Jim Lansing...that's why his company chose to vent the magnet.

[edgewound]

Oh OK:hmm:

So JBL's approach avoids that. If you look at the newer low power compression drivers they have vents into the space under the spider. It makes sense they are porous to help move air around the coil.

Cool:D

Rob :barf:

Literally...cooler;) :D

Doug Button told me a few years ago at a NAMM show... when he designed VGC drivers, they manage heat so well that they tested them in the factory with 3000 watt amplifiers. I've had 2241's in my shop that got so hot the cone caught fire. People think that they are indestructable...not so.

[Maron Horonzakz]

Yes ....Yes I worked for Mcdonnell Douglas/ Boeing who also got in trouble with copyright with Janes fighting ships. But I didnt resign. ;)

[Robh3606]

So vented coil form like the this guy here.

Rob:)

[edgewound]

Great pic...that's exactly it. As the cone moves outward, the vacuum sucks the hot air off the coil to be expelled out the vent on inward movement. The aluminum dome also acted as more of a heat sink to deal with the heat also.

[Guido]

Glad to see you back on topic.
Question was how to ventilate a VC.
Question was not how to ventilate Dust Caps or how Tannoy, Altec or TAD did it.

Sorry, couldn't resist :p

[Maron Horonzakz]

And to ventilate that voice coil bobbin you dont use a punch to make the holes. You replace the the entire VC & bobbin. Ive done several of those.

[edgewound]

Jaybird,

I'm truly sorry that your simple question turned into a ridiculous salvo thanks to a member...who seems to have an axe to grind, which is a complete out-of-left field mystery.

Thanks to Rob for steering us back on topic.

Thanks Guido for your supporting comments.

Next time someone has an alternate solution to a question, make sure you understand the question, please just offer your solution, why it might be better, or works for you better.

Thank you,

[DRG]

The following question is an open invitation for other forum members to present their ideas.
For you reconers That ocasionally have to use aftermarket voice coils, what is the best way you have found to vent them?It seems the very basic rules for this particular forum have been forgotten. Here's a reminder:

[Maron Horonzakz]

Yes I too believe Edgewound should follow those rules. ;)

[edgewound]

Yes I too believe Edgewound should follow those rules. ;)

Newton's Third Law should also be taken into consideration when posting.

[moldyoldy]

:applaud:
I've encountered punched VC formers in applications with no apparent means of external venting (i.e. Altec 418B), and assumed the punching was done to reduce moving mass in that application. Any thoughts?

[edgewound]

That sounds like a valid concept to reduce mass....and it would also allow more air to circulate around both sides of the voice coil, to be expelled, albeit rather restrictively,through the spider and to the aluminum frame.

[jaybird]

Gentlemen!! Your keyboard jousting has brought forth some interesting tidbits on the design ,but how much will it effect the performance of say a K120 in a guitar amp or a stage monitor without the venting? I would still prefer to use factory replacement parts but financial constraints restrict there use for some.
Jaybird

[moldyoldy]

Jaybird,
As a non-Pro, limited resource, fellow tinkerer, I'll add a bit from my experience from experimenting for personal use.

Anything you change from design WILL change performance, whether good or bad depends on the changes and the application. I once got a deal on some well-built, non-punched, kapton AM 3" VCs that I experimented with in some Altec MI 15s (418, 421). I was able to salvage a few of the original VCs intact (real PITA) for comparison purposes. The kaptons weighed nearly twice the originals, but, other than former thickness, were dimensionally the same. Since kapton formers with modern adhesives are way more tolerant of heat than the originals, I suspect the breakdown temp would equal or exceed a non-kapton, vented VC (unverified). The extra weight entails a loss of efficiency, at least theoretically. In AlNiCo apps under high power, early compression can rear its' head with extra heat.

For guitar/bass amps, I like 'em, though no more than the originals, but they do sound a little different, which is fine in an application where coloration is a matter of preference. Sorry, but my vocabulary lacks the words to express how they're different in a way that you would know exactly what I mean.

For monitors though, I'd stick with the originals, unless you're prepared to do lots of experimenting, or are willing to live with a colored sound.

(Edit) Experimenting requires LOTS of spare parts, an investment that quickly exceeds the price of OEM parts or a Pro recone. Truth is, I spent way more $ in the long run with my DIY tinkering, even though I learned a lot and enjoyed doing it.

[edgewound]

Jaybird,
As a non-Pro, limited resource, fellow tinkerer, I'll add a bit from my experience from experimenting for personal use.

Anything you change from design WILL change performance, whether good or bad depends on the changes and the application. I once got a deal on some well-built, non-punched, kapton AM 3" VCs that I experimented with in some Altec MI 15s (418, 421). I was able to salvage a few of the original VCs intact (real PITA) for comparison purposes. The kaptons weighed nearly twice the originals, but, other than former thickness, were dimensionally the same. Since kapton formers with modern adhesives are way more tolerant of heat than the originals, I suspect the breakdown temp would equal or exceed a non-kapton, vented VC (unverified). The extra weight entails a loss of efficiency, at least theoretically. In AlNiCo apps under high power, early compression can rear its' head with extra heat.

For guitar/bass amps, I like 'em, though no more than the originals, but they do sound a little different, which is fine in an application where coloration is a matter of preference. Sorry, but my vocabulary lacks the words to express how they're different in a way that you would know exactly what I mean.

For monitors though, I'd stick with the originals, unless you're prepared to do lots of experimenting, or are willing to live with a colored sound.

(Edit) Experimenting requires LOTS of spare parts, an investment that quickly exceeds the price of OEM parts or a Pro recone. Truth is, I spent way more $ in the long run with my DIY tinkering, even though I learned a lot and enjoyed doing it.

Hey Jay,

Moldy's got some good points.

As a guitar player, myself... I find differences in the response of the speaker itself are enormous. Changes in tactile feel and/or hi frequency response can either make or break my playing experience. With a D/K/E 120. e.g., the difference between the aluminum wire OEM coil and a copper after market is almost a whole octave!!! Copper goes to about 3-4Khz...aluminum goes to about 6-7Khz...BIG difference. Add to that the difference in coil mass between materials and that contributes alot to the freq response, transient response and overall sound and feel of the whole speaker-amp-guitar-player system. Put in variances in OEM vs. aftermarket cones and the scene just gets uglier. I've been an active guitar player for 30+ years (have a gig tomorrow) and a reconer since 1988...so I have a perspective that most reconers don't have....I actually use the stuff, and know the differences through my hands and ears. The difference really has to be felt for you to really get it. When you do....you'll never want to go back.

Here's a useful tool for punching holes in VC formers:

[analogman]

Well Scotty...for some unknown reason... Mr. Maron has decided to turn this into a war, with his unfounded "stupid" remark....that he so conveniently deleted...and then his last quoted comment. Maybe he could explain the need to be a jerk...or maybe he can't explain and it just comes naturally. Some people can't help themselves...I'll say a prayer for him.:)

:bs:


There's a REAL NEED for guys like you at:

http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/

When you get there, ask for Allan Songer, tell him Analogman sent you. I think the two of you will make a great team, maybe more. :blah:

[analogman]

Hey Jay,

Moldy's got some good points.

As a guitar player, myself... I find differences in the response of the speaker itself are enormous. Changes in tactile feel and/or hi frequency response can either make or break my playing experience. With a D/K/E 120. e.g., the difference between the aluminum wire OEM coil and a copper after market is almost a whole octave!!! Copper goes to about 3-4Khz...aluminum goes to about 6-7Khz...BIG difference. Add to that the difference in coil mass between materials and that contributes alot to the freq response, transient response and overall sound and feel of the whole speaker-amp-guitar-player system. Put in variances in OEM vs. aftermarket cones and the scene just gets uglier. I've been an active guitar player for 30+ years (have a gig tomorrow) and a reconer since 1988...so I have a perspective that most reconers don't have....I actually use the stuff, and know the differences through my hands and ears. The difference really has to be felt for you to really get it. When you do....you'll never want to go back.

Here's a useful tool for punching holes in VC formers:

:wtf:

Consistently inconsistent :bs:
Make up your mind, or does it just feel too good to hear yourself babble?

[moldyoldy]

Jay,

The punch Edge pictured can be improved for this specific appl., by filing the brass face of the female die into a radius to match the inner radius of the former. Be careful around the hole to avoid the cutting edge.

A-man,

Pro reconers have an obligation to each other to protect their industry by not selling parts or divulging too much info to us cheapskate DIYers, and the patent response is "No, it won't work, don't do it". The fact that we get any help at all should appreciated. Get used to it, that's the way it is.;)

[Maron Horonzakz]

Anal man ....Your mouth is writeing checks your ass cant cash.

[edgewound]

Moldy...Maron,

Stop by for a drink anytime.;)

[Maron Horonzakz]

Hi Edgie.....Ive got one of those leather punches. My grand father made some great saddles with that tool. Drinks? what are you serving? Pink lemonade?:D

[edgewound]

Hi Edgie.....Ive got one of those leather punches. My grand father made some great saddles with that tool. Drinks? what are you serving? Pink lemonade?:D

I've got one too...it was my Dad's from his Eagle scout days.

I was thinking of a little darker shade of red...or a nice shade of amber;)

[moldyoldy]

Last time I was in Calif., Kool-Aid was pretty popular, IIRC, (which I can't...):cheers: Have to take a rain check. (Now where'd we leave that damn BUS!!!)

[Maron Horonzakz]

Edgie.....Darker shade of red or amber? I did,nt know you are wearing lipstick. Heads up ...I just read on another of our site,s Don is on a war path...He,s called Giskard on the carpet. Your Dad was honored as Fellow, You should be proud. Thats a great honor.:)

[analogman]

Edgie.....Darker shade of red or amber? I did,nt know you are wearing lipstick. Heads up ...I just read on another of our site,s Don is on a war path...He,s called Giskard on the carpet. Your Dad was honored as Fellow, You should be proud. Thats a great honor.:)

Spring is here and Love is definitely in the air :barf: