Large monitor advice

[John W]

I just purchased a set of drivers and need some advice on building a pair of large monitors.

The list of drivers is:
2245H 18” woofer
2202H 12” midbase
2445J 2” compression driver
2405H tweeter

All the drivers are in good shape. I need to replace the foam on the 2245H, and I’m pretty sure the diaphragms on the 2445J are titanium, not sure if that is original on this driver.
I placed the 2202H drivers in my 120Tis for a quick try out and I really liked their impact on kick drums and the like.
Here is the question:
Should I piece together the remaining parts of a 4344 and build one of these, or put together a 4344/4350 hybrid using the 18” woofer, larger midbase and 2445 mated to a smith horn? A stock 4350 would be too large.
Either way the bottom end would be bi-amped.

[Robh3606]

I would drop the 2202/2445/2405 in a seperate sub enclosure and use the 4355 crossover with it as a starter. The 18 is going to need a large cabinet to get the most out of it. If a stock 4350 is too large I would look seriously about box size on the 18". You may find it's to big a box as well. Especially if you incorporate the other drivers in the 18's enclosure.

Rob:)

[Mr. Widget]

I just purchased a set of drivers and need some advice on building a pair of large monitors...

I placed the 2202H drivers in my 120Tis for a quick try out and I really liked their impact on kick drums and the like.
I agree 100%... the 2202 has the ability to give you the attack of a drum like few other speakers... especially at high SPLs... however I found that after awhile that wasn't enough for me. I felt they were a bit veiled and didn't offer the resolution I was after.

If you just want another project, I'd say follow Rob's advice and build a pair of 4355s... substituting the single 2245 for the pair of 2235s... same volume require and all... but if you want a speaker that is about as good as vintage JBL gets, I'd swop the 2202s for a pair of 2122s, use the 3145 networks, and I would also swap out the Ti diaphragms in the 2445s for a pair of 2441 AL diaphragms. Next is the horn choice... you've shown us you can do it, I'd say build a beautiful pair of wood 2397s and place it on top... or stay with the standard JBL 43XX horn/lens combo... the key will be getting the networks right and dialing them in... once you've done that you will really have something.

The shape of the cabs can be horizontal, vertical or maybe a scaled up version of your walnut babies... I expect to see some outstanding speakers from you sometime next week.;)


Widget

[Ian Mackenzie]

Simple,

Measure the height of yours ears when seated at your normal listening position from the floor. Your ears should line up with the tweeter / horn vertically . Whether you choose Lowboy or normal 4344 driver lay out will be dicated by that.

Most feedback suggests the imaging of the stock 4350 was not the greatest. The 4344 will image well if you do it right but the above caveat applies.

Some members will also sway you to consider other horn types ie 800 hz 2397/ 1200 hz 2397 junior/ Edgar salad bowl.

Hope this helps, I spent 6 months deciding how big my 2245 woofer boxes in my first attempt so I know what it's like. I am on my 5th attempt (slow learner and I've nearly got it right!)

Clockwise, playing around triamping all my junk in 1996. My quasi 4345 with 2397 horn built 1998..nice loud stage monitor!, quasi 4430 with eight inch cone mid built 2002 (very good loudspeaker... leaves the 4430 for dead!) , clone 4345 built 2004 (excellent loudspeaker). My original 4343 since re painted (fantastic loudspeaker) ... original built 1979.

I confess the JBL original designs tend to work best but being a diy speaker nut and a nut in general..I could not help myself back in my audio youth (no harm in trying but tends to be a waste of time)

John, talk to Rick, he recent built similar designs to yours and has a wealth of experience.

Ian

[Ian Mackenzie]

For comparion, the JBL studio series family.

[John W]

Thanks everyone, good advice all around. I am still a couple months out on this project, just doing a little planning. I appreciate the pictures of your old projects Ian, these are the kind of things I had kicking around in my mind.

[yggdrasil]

Very interesting set of drivers. I have almost the same in my 4-ways. 2245H/2202/LE85/077.

With the 2445 I would go for a horn that makes it possible to crossover lower than 1.2KHz, probably at 800Hz.

[northwood]

Please show us the bigger one

[hapy._.face]

John,

I would say that unless you plan to model a studio monitor to the last detail- you might as well go full bore with a custom design. That means you might as well hand pick the drivers. You have some great ones already! The Widget is dead on in advising the 2202 swap out for the 2122.

Perhaps we could share some ideas as I have almost the same drivers and I am firing up the router this weekend.
I don't think I'm too far from you either.

[John W]

John,
I have almost the same drivers and I am firing up the router this weekend.
I don't think I'm too far from you either.

I'd love to see and hear about what you have in the works.
Do I read it right thay you are in Maryland? I'm in the other Washington, the great northwest.

[hapy._.face]

I'd love to see and hear about what you have in the works.
Do I read it right thay you are in Maryland? I'm in the other Washington, the great northwest.

Oh man- I am off!! :rotfl:

I glanced at your avatar and thought your were in VA. oops! Oh well- the internet makes us nearby (relatively typing.)

I'd still love to share some ideas with you- perhaps between the two of us....;)

[John W]

I'd still love to share some ideas with you- perhaps between the two of us....;)
You got it.

[Ian Mackenzie]

Please show us the bigger one

Let me work out how to make panorarma photo for my Nikon and I will email you hi res picture.

[Ian Mackenzie]

I would drop the 2202/2445/2405 in a seperate sub enclosure and use the 4355 crossover with it as a starter. The 18 is going to need a large cabinet to get the most out of it. If a stock 4350 is too large I would look seriously about box size on the 18". You may find it's to big a box as well. Especially if you incorporate the other drivers in the 18's enclosure.

Rob:)

There in lay the problem my friend.

If the 2245 is in a seperate enclosure it will be a lowboy under the mid/hf/uhf ad they may not suits John's floor plan. At 250-300 crossover point the woofer must be in the same plane as the midrange driver which to my mind always sounds better under the horn. The foot print of the suitable vertical array will be in the order of 28 x 18.

The most important issue is to have the horn and slot at ear height or you will crash and burn badly. It will just not work for you otherwise. Even the 2397 beams a fair bit vertically, hence I carefully located the 2397 vertically in terms of height in the above diy design.

One thing that might be interesting but very radical is to orientate the 2397 vertically not unlike G.T 's new Array Series and see what happens.....

[John W]

Ian, you are making a lot of sense. I am not sure I'm ready to implement a full vertical smith horn though. Is it necessary that a smith horn spread the full 130 degrees. How would 65 degrees vertically work?

[Mr. Widget]

The most important issue is to have the horn and slot at ear height...Absolutely! I find slightly above is OK too.


Widget

[yggdrasil]

Is it necessary that a smith horn spread the full 130 degrees. How would 65 degrees vertically work?
Changing from 130 to 65 degrees would double the length of the horn though.

Increasing the height would shorten the horn.... E.g. at 90 degrees spread and 2" height the horn length is approximately the same.

[Tom Loizeaux]

... One thing that might be interesting but very radical is to orientate the 2397 vertically not unlike G.T 's new Array Series and see what happens.....

I suspect that you would be required to sit in a chair, placed exactly in the center and not move your head away from dead center.

Tom

[Tom Loizeaux]

Ian,
My comment was based on my 4343s, which use the 2307 horns w/ the 2308 lenses. I can move my head around a little, but if I stand up and step left or right the sound stage shifts dramatically. It still sounds great, but the imaging is lost. Though I haven't heard the vertical horn setup, I suspect it woud be even more critical in terms of centering.

Tom

[hapy._.face]

John,

I am going for independant enclosures on each driver. I discovered quick that the 2245 requires a cabinet that puts a vertical stack concept too high above the listening point. I guess you could point your mids and tweeters down...but...

I'm using 2235's which sound great and require less volume. Sure, they don't go quite as low as a 2245 (on paper) but they sure do slam and are very musical to my ears. Using 2235's allows me to just squeeze in the 2397 and 2405 at listening height.

Every little bit helps. Even the 2202 (12") swap for a 2122 (10") gets it down a bit lower. A 2235 with a doghouse for the 2122 slightly off axis, and squeezed close (verically), will buy you some room to play with as well.

Smith horn on top of the cabinet. Period. I don't care what anyone says- that's the way to do it IMO. I put the lip of my 2397 flush with the front of my cabinet and elevate it on high density acoustic foam about 2 inches. This elimates almost all the deflections. I used to be hell bent on building a rounded baffle to the curve of the 2397- but I feel it's overkill. It does just fine if properly placed on the cabinet. Now imagine, if you will a smallish enclosure for the 2122. Now imagine putting a 2397 smith on top of that. deflections? WHAT DEFLECTIONS!? That's the reason I'm going this route.

AND- 2405 on top of the smith. period. That's the ultimate way to do it if you can. Thanks to the super Widget for turning me on to the vintage Fostex design- I'm in love with the concept. That's my goal. I want to get my system low enough to build something in that realm- but better. For reference:

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=6121&stc=1&d=1111622906

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=6122&stc=1&d=1111622950


cheers,
Travis

[Ian Mackenzie]

Travis,

Not sure what you are saying here.

The 4345 has its horn and slot at ideal arm chair height. If your seated height is for whatever reason very low I would understand.

I imagine the 2397 would fit right in there just swell and that is exactly how I did my previous 2397 arrangement (per the above image)

Perhaps I am missing something? Each to his own of course.

Ian

[hapy._.face]

Oops - the link got truncated and is not valid ...
The comments sound interesting - can you repost the link?

Hi Heather,

I updated the links- try again. Thanks for catching that.

:thmbsup:

[hapy._.face]

The 4345 has its horn and slot at ideal arm chair height.

Yes, thanks to a cabinet design which allows the horn to sit nearly beside the 2122 subenclosure. The tweeter gets room for optimal placement too. I think the 4345 is a great design. However, if I were to stack each driver in it's own box(my project) and put them in a vertical array- you'd need a barstool for critical listening...hey maybe I should rethink this...barstools.hey?..:hmm:



If your seated height is for whatever reason very low I would understand.


Hey, are you calling me a creepy crawlie? :D Since you commented- I am in to the mod furniture so most of it is scaled down very low to the ground. My listening chair is more of a chaise lounge- that's a must have in my room.




I imagine the 2397 would fit right in there just swell and that is exactly how I did my previous 2397 arrangement (per the above image)



Yep. It looks really cool, too!

[John W]

This is a great discussion, and I hope it keeps going, but after considering the information presented here and reading a couple other threads, I've basically made up my mind to build a 4345 copy. I’m only a couple parts shy.
The smith horn project is intriguing but its fairly close to something I already have. Sticking with JBL engineering in the layout and crossover won’t leave me listening to the finished speakers wondering if, and where I compromised the sound.

[hapy._.face]

No doubt the 4345 has major influence on this forum. As such- I was going to do that too at first. Then I remembered I didn't have a marketing department and I thought I would just shoot for something that involves the 2397. I can't live without it- don't know how I'll ever live without one. I'm using JBL engineering as well; JBL designed each and every driver in my project. :D

[John W]

Speaking of marketing, it may be a while before I start setting aside drivers for one of these:

[Chas]

This is a great discussion, and I hope it keeps going, but after considering the information presented here and reading a couple other threads, I've basically made up my mind to build a 4345 copy. I’m only a couple parts shy.
The smith horn project is intriguing but its fairly close to something I already have. Sticking with JBL engineering in the layout and crossover won’t leave me listening to the finished speakers wondering if, and where I compromised the sound.

A Smith type horn based system is definitely intriguing, but a bear to implement and integrate, I have run into similar issues. Widget's old Westlake/4355 hybrid was about as elegant a solution as I have seen, but it sure ate up a lot of floor space. But I see he has since moved on...;)

I have been having a lot of fun with my S-22-2's (in sealed 5 cu. ft. boxes with medium fill) triamped to four 2235H's and a pair of SUB 1500's. Want BIG MONITOR sound? This will effortlessly do it for you.

The jury is out though, on overall sound quality. That is until the 4345's are up and running as a reference. And hey, I'm still waiting for the jacket and fruit basket too..........:p

[Robh3606]

The smith horn project is intriguing but its fairly close to something I already have. Sticking with JBL engineering in the layout and crossover won’t leave me listening to the finished speakers wondering if, and where I compromised the sound.

Hello John

Yes start with a know system and then change it if you are not happy. You could spends months messing around with a DIY with no baseline system and never get it right. Looks like a good choice to me. I have 4344 clones and they are great. Have Fun

Rob:)

[Mr. Widget]

This is a great discussion, and I hope it keeps going, but after considering the information presented here and reading a couple other threads, I've basically made up my mind to build a 4345 copy. I’m only a couple parts shy. I think that is a wise decision. I do think it is possible to better that system... but the likelihood of stepping backwards is much greater... to produce a one-off that is better than a stock 4345 while using most of the same components would certainly require months of experimenting... and there is no guarantee you'd get there. The 4345 is a fine system and no doubt you'll do an exquisite job building a pair.


Widget

[Ian Mackenzie]

Well that as the whole point of my somewhat long post.

[hapy._.face]

I just can't leave this one alone. It would seem I'm pissing on a flag when I suggest using the drivers (even some of them) from a 4345 in any arrangement outside of a 4345 replica and expect to get good results. Man, dare I even suggest better results? Even an upgrade to MDF is an instant improvement.

I'm sure GT and the other amazing engineers at JBL never messed with a prototype for more than 6 days, right? The point is- if it takes me a few months of tweaking the best ounce out of a project and the end result might best a 4345- so what? I'll take my chances.

...and Widget (of all people) ...did your 4355 project outperform a real 4355 or what!? With all of the 4350/55 design flaws- it probably wasn't hard to do, but still. Perhaps it didn't outperform a Westlake- but I bet it kicked serious a$$.

I know that John will build a superlative 4345- perhaps even the best clone yet. What an awesome benchmark- I understand his choice. But to assume no one can do better than the almighty 4345 is insulting and self serving.

[hapy._.face]

Mike, I am not sure what you are saying...

Richard, I expected as much- Let me draw a diagram in MS paint for you...

[Mr. Widget]

Richard, I expected as much- Let me draw a diagram in MS paint for you...What the hell is this? I need to get the updated code book.... maybe it's in the mail?


But to assume no one can do better than the almighty 4345 is insulting and self serving.I'll climb out on a limb here... you are talking to/about Ian here right? He is agreeing with you... he has said that you can best the 4345, but it won't be easy and you may not succeed. He just used many more words to say it...

I can understand the desire to end up with an excellent system and know that the time and money put into it will be paid back in full... and I can understand the desire to take the challenge to spend a bit more money and invest a lot of extra time and maybe through the use of more expensive materials and drivers end up with a superior product. I do think it arrogant of any of us to think we could come up with a better system than JBL and not spend additional money on materials, drivers, or real estate. GT and company have way more experience, better testing facilities, and do it as a full time job... so our taking the same parts and coming up with something better is about as likely as winning the lottery.... getting struck by lightning... making pigs fly... you get the idea.:D


Widget

[hapy._.face]

Great post Widget. I gotcha...

I also want to add that in my attempts to get something "better" than the 4345- it in no way is disrespect to GT, JBL, my deity of choice, or anyone that owns a 4345. In fact- the very notion that it is an ambitious project is respect in itself. I'm not afraid to spend more- I expect to get more. I'm also not afraid to spend more time- again there will be rewards. I did say I don't have a marketing department- forcing me to build within the financial confines of a budget. Even if I don't succeed- guess what? I'll still have my drivers and I can just build a 4345 clone with a few changes. I'll also learn a lot; How much is that worth? :)


Originally Posted by hapy._.face
Richard, I expected as much- Let me draw a diagram in MS paint for you...

What the hell is this? I need to get the updated code book.... maybe it's in the mail?


Ian should undertand it. He made a smarta$$ remark, so I made one right back.

[Robh3606]

I'll also learn a lot; How much is that worth? :)


That is the whole point. You can't put a price on that! From someone who has tried that idea of coming up with a better mouse trap you owe it to yourself to hear the original somewhere down the line. I built my references last. It would have been smarter to do it the other way.

Rob:)

[Mr. Widget]

...you owe it to yourself to hear the original somewhere down the line. I built my references last. It would have been smarter to do it the other way.I was thinking the same thing... if you are going to build a system that is essentially the same as an existing JBL system ideally you'd clone them exactly first as a benchmark... frequently we hear something that is simply different and think wow... that's neat... and it is, but without being able to really have a target many times the DIY project doesn't fully reach it's potential.


Widget

[hapy._.face]

Now we understand what your saying. This could be about anything, a 250ti, a 4333, ans L100 ..the isseus are the same.

Go make it go.

When you yourself post anduse either Travis or Mike its easy to post either when you are known as Mike!


Yes, there will be issues alright. I fully expect to encounter a few- hell, they've already started! :D

I'll make it go. ;) I just started in this game. I've learned more in the last three months than any brain should- I have headaches. It was only last Jan that I was loving the L212- in stock form, mind you. Now I'm sitting in front of a 2235, 2202, 2397, 2435, 2405 mock up and it already sounds heaps better. Add a 2122 to that list. I'm a design junkie so I've given it a lot of thought and consideration. Thanks to this forum and the patience shown to me (albeit hard to do at times)- I'm on the fast track to some awesome speakers.

It's "Michael Travis" but I go by Travis to all my friends. Mike is a pretty common name- so I've always been a Travis. I even told you that in a PM Ian- so when you address me as Travis earlier on the thread and later "Mike" it sounds like an insult. If I read in to it wrong I apologize.




This is a great discussion, and I hope it keeps going


Still feel that way, John? lol. Sorry for the drama in your thread.

[northwood]

Let me work out how to make panorarma photo for my Nikon and I will email you hi res picture.

Thank you buddy,that grey monster looks perfect:)

[Ian Mackenzie]

Let me work on it over the weekend.