SACD - Discussion Thread

[Mr. Widget]

As far as I know there still is no digital output of SACD from any licensed player...I think I read about one of the uber high end units (Teac Esoteric maybe?) that had it's own outboard SACD DAC and did have an SACD digital out... I didn't pay attention since I'm not in the market for a SACD player that costs more than my car is worth....


I mentioned car... will Bo start a new thread?;)


Widget

[JuniorJBL]

I think I read about one of the uber high end units (Teac Esoteric maybe?) that had it's own outboard SACD DAC and did have an SACD digital out... I didn't pay attention since I'm not in the market for a SACD player that costs more than my car is worth....


I mentioned car... will Bo start a new thread?;)


Widget


Yes it was an Esoteric P01/D01

http://www.teac.com/esoteric/P-01.html

And a very nice player.

[JuniorJBL]

Ken, Have a look at some of the Musical Fidelity stuff or the Apogee MiniMe



Ken
I know you have bought a DAC already but I missed this discussion.
I use a Musical Fidelity X DACv3 ( http://www.musicalfidelity.com/products/smlx/xdacv3.html ) And I really like it. I am processing output from a denon 3910 universal player. Yes as Mr.Widget put it it did help my digital sound stage to be more "analog" sounding. I got a great deal on my DAC from a friend who works in the business.
The one you got should do about the same.
:D

[boputnam]

...then deleted. :dont-know

Regardless, it was from the AudioTools.com website (http://audiotools.com/sacd.html) and seems a good resource for the topic.

------------------------
SACD Hardware manufacturers
Now in 2005 there are now basically 3 types of SACD capable players out there, with some minor variations. The Japanese companies in particular are pushing the Stereo SACD player as a replacement for the mid priced CD player, this is simply a music only player that will play any CD usually with upsampling capabilities and SACD disks but only have 2 channel output, most stereo players have proper DSD converters and filters and do not transcode to PCM, but that is not a rule. The Universal player is a DVD player that is mainly geared towards playing DVD video but also supports the playback of CD, DVDA, SACD, MP3 audio disks and usually VCD/SVCD video disks as well, with formats originating in the computer industry such as Xvid/Divx/MPEG4 and WM being common also. All of those players regardless of price range support multichannel playback but almost all of them do not have a proper 1 bit converters built in but rather convert the bitstream into a PCM format and thus loose the advantages of the DSD format, making the point of SACD rather pointless if I may say so, as convenience devices or for those that are primarily used as DVD players they are valid option, however do not expect the same sound quality when playing SACD disks. There are also hybrid DAC's out there that can work in both DSD and PCM mode but the sound quality in DSD mode is not as good as with a separate DAC but still preferavle to transcoding. Note that the universal player is not neccesearly universal, Sony and Philips along with an increasing number of other suppliers shun DVD-Audio and quite a few players do not support some video formats for a variety of reasons, mostly political it would appear. Thirdly there is the High End SACD player, those are players made by traditional high end audio companies that are aimed at audiophiles but vary somewhat in execution, most of these players only support 2 channel playback but some of them have multichannel and a few even have video outputs, but those can usually be switched out in keeping with the audiophile pretensions of the device.

[Rolf]

...then deleted. :dont-know



This happens more and more. When I read, people quote somebody, and when I look for the original post. it's gone. What is going on? Is this what we can expect more of in the future???

[Hoerninger]

...then deleted. :dont-know

Thanks for clearing up. I was confused because i could not find anymore (SEARCH) what i had printed out just before. :banghead:
____________
Regards
Peter

[Ken Pachkowsky]

Ken
I know you have bought a DAC already but I missed this discussion.
I use a Musical Fidelity X DACv3 ( http://www.musicalfidelity.com/products/smlx/xdacv3.html ) And I really like it. I am processing output from a denon 3910 universal player. Yes as Mr.Widget put it it did help my digital sound stage to be more "analog" sounding. I got a great deal on my DAC from a friend who works in the business.
The one you got should do about the same.
:D

Will post my impressions this weekend. Picked up some cables today. Thanks for your input.

Ken

[Steve Schell]

My Cogent Loudspeakers partner Rich picked up a Denon DVD-3910 universal player for us in the past week (the unit that JuniorJBL mentioned). Street price for this rig is about a grand. I have been amazed at its sound. The CD playback is the best I've had here, though that's not saying a lot with my collection of swap meet CD players. Best part though is the sound of several DVD-As I bought a couple of years ago. Donald Fagen's The Nightfly, Fleetwood Mac's Rumours, Grover Washington Jr.'s Winelight all sound superb, much better than the CDs. There is much of the depth, smoothness and fine resolution of the LPs, without the vinyl noise.

This thing is gonna make me finally break down and hook up some surround speakers, as the surround outputs sound really tasty on a quick listen. Maybe it will be like the good old days (late '70s), when I fiddled endlessly with a "time delay" unit.

[JuniorJBL]

My Cogent Loudspeakers partner Rich picked up a Denon DVD-3910 universal player for us in the past week (the unit that JuniorJBL mentioned). Street price for this rig is about a grand. I have been amazed at its sound. The CD playback is the best I've had here, though that's not saying a lot with my collection of swap meet CD players. Best part though is the sound of several DVD-As I bought a couple of years ago. Donald Fagen's The Nightfly, Fleetwood Mac's Rumours, Grover Washington Jr.'s Winelight all sound superb, much better than the CDs. There is much of the depth, smoothness and fine resolution of the LPs, without the vinyl noise.

This thing is gonna make me finally break down and hook up some surround speakers, as the surround outputs sound really tasty on a quick listen. Maybe it will be like the good old days (late '70s), when I fiddled endlessly with a "time delay" unit.


Hi Steve
I did like the sound of my 3910 but at first (compared to my Adcom GCD 750) it was not much of a comparison. Then I added the DAC and WOW. I could not however put the DAC on my Adcom because it did not have a digital out (but it had a digital in :blink: ). Never the less I had tried the Denon 3900 previously and I did not like it at all. Video was not very good and sound quality was average. The 3910 is a big improvement over the last model.
I would really like a separate SACD player. I had a chance to buy a Sony SCD-1 (brand new) for $1800.00 and now I am kicking myself for not doing so as most players now (for a good one) are $3000.00 or better.
Oh well I am sure I will survive!:D

[hapy._.face]

How do I know what my CD player is ? What I mean is- it can play SACD's and it's a 20bit unit. But is it a "true" SACD player- or does it simply have that compatibility??

California Audio Labs ICON MK2 (with powerboss/burrbrown upgrade) Anyone know more about these?? Thanks.

[Mr. Widget]

How do I know what my CD player is ? What I mean is- it can play hdcd's and it's a 20bit unit. But is it a "true" hdcd player- or does it simply have that compatibility??

California Audio Labs ICON MK2 (with powerboss/burrbrown upgrade) Anyone know more about these?? Thanks.All HDCD players have an indicator light that lights up when they are decoding HDCD. That technology is rather dead though... SACD and DVD-A made it rather obsolete.

On the subject of the Adcom 750. It does play HDCDs, but even still... the Adcom playing an HDCD encoded disc doesn't sound as good as a non-HDCD player through a better DAC. I had both payers running for awhile to be able to continue decoding HDCDs... after a few times A/Bing them, there was no point in continuing using the HDCD equipped player.


Widget

[speakerdave]

Hi all.

The Dac1 got here late today (three days late). I only had a chance to play a couple of cd’s before writing this quick note.

This is an amazing piece of equipment. I would have to say the initial impressions are very favorable. Had another forumite turn me on to Leonard Cohen’s “Ten New Songs” cd. It has become a standard disk for me to test with. The mix is incredible, with layered vocals that are hard to describe but stunning to hear.

My system already did a great job reproducing the material but adding the Dac1 into the path, created stunning results. The soundstage became wider and less focused but in a positive way. Each of the vocalists had a more defined position within the wider soundstage. I can also confirm that the extreme low frequencies appear more full and tight. I also played the sacd version of Ray’s “Genius Loves Company” very briefly and noticed an improvement on it as well.

I am going to re-analyze the room over the next few days using a sacd pink noise cd and will do more listening tests.

Ken

Ken, please read this carefully and stop deluding yourself and others about SACD and outboard DAC's.

If you are using the Pioneer 578 and outputing digital to a DAC, playing SACD's as a way of getting higher definition signal is a completely pointless waste of time. Any difference you hear using them you will also hear with PCM CD's since the SACD signal is transposed to PCM before it is outputed (and in this machine even earlier). All of the improvement in sound is owing to the improved conversion of PCM AND bypassing the much below optimum analogue output stage of your player for a far superior analogue output section in the DAC.

There is no digital output of DSD except for a few players that export it encoded and it cannot be decoded by most DAC's, but only by a few receiving units that are programmed to handle the special encoding.

Regards,

David

PS,

Your comments about the DAC should be on the other thread. THIS thread is about SACD only, please.

PPS: Congratulations on getting another fine piece of equipment.

[Ken Pachkowsky]

Ken, please read this carefully and stop deluding yourself and others about SACD and outboard DAC's.

All of the improvement in sound is owing to the improved conversion of PCM AND bypassing the much below optimum analogue output stage of your player for a far superior analogue output section in the DAC.


Regards,

David

PS,

Your comments about the DAC should be on the other thread. THIS thread is about SACD only, please.



David

I hope you feel better? What is it that makes some of you feel the need to not just correct, but insult others in the process?

My thread got moved and "in error" I quickly added a review to this one. I had said I would post my initial thoughts on the Dac1 on Monday. So, pardon me for the placement error.

As far as the technical reason for the Dac sounding better you are no doubt right. I don't have a whole lot of understanding of the technology, but do know what sounds good. I looked forward to leaving a report on my initial impressions but you have succeeded in taking that away. This is definately becomming a place where you had better be carefull what you post or your going to get called on it. Whats becoming a common practice however is the insulting way its done. It's just not fun anymore.

I think its time to find another place to hang my hat. I have made some good friends here and we can keep in touch via direct email.

Adios

[boputnam]

If you are using the Pioneer 578 and outputing digital to a DAC, playing SACD's as a way of getting higher definition signal is a completely pointless waste of time. Any difference you hear using them you will also hear with PCM CD's since the SACD signal is transposed to PCM before it is outputed (and in this machine even earlier). All of the improvement in sound is owing to the improved conversion of PCM AND bypassing the much below optimum analogue output stage of your player for a far superior analogue output section in the DAC.

There is no digital output of DSD except for a few players that export it encoded and it cannot be decoded by most DAC's, but only by a few receiving units that are programmed to handle the special encoding. And this report is why this was parsed to it's own thread.

I believe few had done the research on this, and might be pursuing the SACD without full knowledge. Thanks, speakerdave, for revisiting this topic.

[Mr. Widget]

What the hell is going on here.... ? I can't imagine that we are better served by being so uptight about protocol.

Dave, I don't think Ken's post was delusional... unless I am mistaken I don't think he ever said that he was hearing sonic benefits with his new DAC while listening to a DSD bit stream. He may have placed it in what he thought was his original thread but was surprised to find it had been split... so, can't we all be allowed to make a simple mistake now and then. ...am I missing something significant here?

...and Bo are you suggesting that most of the people who post on these forums don't know the difference between PCM (red book CDs and DVD-A) and DSD (Sony's SACD format)? I am rather confused by your post syntaxman...

Overall though the tone of these last couple of posts is just plain whacked... this ain't no peer review board.


Widget

[boputnam]

...and Bo are you suggesting that (some) people who post on these forums don't know the difference between PCM (red book CDs and DVD-A) and DSD (Sony's SACD format)? :yes: That was simply all that was meant.


Overall though the tone of these last couple of posts is just plain whacked... this ain't no peer review board.
I stayed clear of their spat - no clue what that's about.

[Mr. Widget]

Here is a brief article that compares the two... it isn't a definitive exploration, but for those confused on the subject of 1 bit DSD technology versus the much more common PCM technology, you may want to read this.

http://www.avrev.com/equip/dvdavssacd/


Widget

[hapy._.face]

Thanks for the link Widget. Good information.

I meant SACD not HDCD in my last post- sorry about that. It was too late to edit, though.

At any rate- I have learned something. Thanks.

Ken,

Dust it off- you are loved around here.


Dave,

Good information, too.

Can't we all just.....:) ?

[boputnam]

I meant SACD not HDCD in my last post- sorry about that. It was too late to edit, though. Done. Let me know if the edit is not complete.



At any rate- I have learned something. Thanks.Yea, me too. That's why I struggle to keep this thread open...

[Ian Mackenzie]

Ken,

Please keep posting and ignore all adhorum et al.

[Don C]

Everybody's ignoring the main thing that I like about SACDs. Surround.

[Rusnzha]

Some of this shit is enough to gag a maggot. Ken, I will never hear the stuff you're into, but I've always been interested in the descriptions of your experiences with Westlakes etc. I hope you will reconsider, I would miss reading your posts.

Also, speaking of SACD, check out a thread that I started about an $8 rat shack mod using the various outputs from an SACD player.

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=10530

[Ken Pachkowsky]

I will be posting a complete non tech impression very soon. It is an impressive piece of equipment. For those of you who are looking for an inexpensive alternative to the super high end players check this out. The 578A can be had for very little.

I am somewhat tempted to try these mods out on mine. Perhaps some of the more knowledgeable members could chime in on this? Would you consider this a worthwhile journey?

http://freerider.dyndns.org/

Ken

[speakerdave]

I will be posting a complete non tech impression very soon. It is an impressive piece of equipment. For those of you who are looking for an inexpensive alternative to the super high end players check this out. The 578A can be had for very little.

I am somewhat tempted to try these mods out on mine. Perhaps some of the more knowledgeable members could chime in on this? Would you consider this a worthwhile journey?


Ken

The web site linked in Ken's post is apparently selling a mod for that model of player. The mod purports to supply digital output of SACD signal in some way (not clear from what I read) I didn't see a price.

Here is some of the CYA legalese from the web page:

CAUTION:
Building the kit and installing it in your player may violate copyright laws of the country you live in. Worldwide it is forbidden to copy copyright protected material for any use. So take a close look at the copyright laws of your country. It even may be prohibited in your country installing the kit in your player. To be sure not to incur a penalty ask a layer before installing the kit. I will not assume liability for any copyright violation you perform building and installing the kit in your player.

Is this what the Lansing Heritage forum has become now? One of those places on the internet where cheaters can exchange information on how to cheat copyright laws and licensing agreements?

The shame!

David

PS: I've eliminated the URL from my quotation of Ken's post so as not to add to the iniquity, but I have a copy of it in case any of our moderators wants to check what I just said.

[jim3860]

The web site linked in Ken's post is apparently selling a mod for that model of player. The mod purports to supply digital output of SACD signal in some way (not clear from what I read) I didn't see a price.

Here is some of the CYA legalese from the web page:

CAUTION:
Building the kit and installing it in your player may violate copyright laws of the country you live in. Worldwide it is forbidden to copy copyright protected material for any use. So take a close look at the copyright laws of your country. It even may be prohibited in your country installing the kit in your player. To be sure not to incur a penalty ask a layer before installing the kit. I will not assume liability for any copyright violation you perform building and installing the kit in your player.

Is this what the Lansing Heritage forum has become now? One of those places on the internet where cheaters can exchange information on how to cheat copyright laws and licensing agreements?

The shame!

David

PS: I've eliminated the URL from my quotation of Ken's post so as not to add to the iniquity, but I have a copy of it in case any of our moderators wants to check what I just said. Geez I doubt ken or anyone here is trying to make copys of cds sacds dvd audio etc and selling them, that is why the copyright laws are written to prevent that. also why very few companys have a digital connection to listen to sacd or dvd audio in its full resolution. I for one am waiting very impatiently for a blu-ray hi def player to become avialable so i can listen to these formats via a version 1.3 hdmi connection. but if i had some wayof listening to these formats now without using multipule rca outputs i would. besides he is only asking an oppinion of other members here, not that he has one at home home hooked up and running, and now trying to paas along a way to cheat to other members. for those people who want to make copys of dvds and cds etc and sell them they are going to do so with or without any help from ken or anyone else here. imho. :)

[boputnam]

Is this what the Lansing Heritage forum has become now? One of those places on the internet where cheaters can exchange information on how to cheat copyright laws and licensing agreements?Interesting point, but to me it greys into the area of ripping CD's. I don't do it, but there are long threads here on compression algortithms and best formats for music storage.

Just because it's posted here, does not mean we are promoting, encouraging or sanctioning it.

[jim3860]

I for 1 am sick of having to constantly having to buy new components to be able to watch or listen to the latest greatest format.when will it stop? for example i have held off buying a hd tv for fear of not having the right connection when hd players became available. i'm glad i did now. because when these new blu-ray players hiy the market you will not be able to watch them in a true hi def format unless you have a version 1.3 hdmi connection. or listen to the sound track in a digital form, for millions of people who have component video connections and dvi connections and earlier hdmi connections. they are SOL. i am waiting for this all to come to a head audio and video wise, then i intend to buy a nice lexicon upgradeable preamp so i can listen to sacds dvd audio and other newer formats in there true formats as designed. regards jim:barf:

[Titanium Dome]

David,

This topic seems to be a hot button for you, and Ken appears to be the whipping boy. It's a long leap of logic to take his question about a possible mod to a specific player to mean he's promoting the exchange of illegal information on copying and violating copyright laws, thus turing LH into a rogue tech underground of cheaters.

I've been in several countries where this would be permitted by law. The US does prefer the rights of the industry over consumers in this case, but since Ken's in Canada, I'm not certain that your condemnation is valid. I do know they pay in advance for any copies they make through a media tariff.

Canada's copyright info can be found here:

http://www.cb-cda.gc.ca/news/c20032004fs-e.html

[speakerdave]

This topic seems to be a hot button for you . . . .

Naw . . . but I would like the SACD format to succeed. However, until you've heard the format with a good player you haven't heard what it can do.

I was always puzzled by revewers who said that the differences between PCM and DSD were subtle or they preferred the "Red Book" version of a recording, and then it started coming out that there were some problems with technical compromises of SACD recordings and players, both.

One of my discoveries with my first SACD player was that part of the problem with PCM, also, was the players, because the Philips SACD1000 (since demised) made them sound better than I had ever heard them before.

Personally, I would LIKE for Ken to be able to bypass the analogue output section of his player with SACD, because if it is like most (and at $150 it most certainly is) it is an afterthought made with cheap parts. But I think it is certainly understandable that Sony and Philips, who want to make money licensing DSD recordings, do not want people to be able to copy them. Who knows, it may be part of their agreement with the recording companies.

SACD is the best thing since good vinyl, but its quality (like the quality of a good PCM recording) is veiled by the analogue output section of most players. And its quality is also hidden be the other compromises that are summarized in the Audio Tools citation.


. . . . Ken appears to be the whipping boy . . . .

Oh, please . . . take a break.

[speakerdave]

I for 1 am sick of having to constantly having to buy new components to be able to watch or listen to the latest greatest format.when will it stop? for example i have held off buying a hd tv for fear of not having the right connection when hd players became available. i'm glad i did now. because when these new blu-ray players hiy the market you will not be able to watch them in a true hi def format unless you have a version 1.3 hdmi connection. or listen to the sound track in a digital form, for millions of people who have component video connections and dvi connections and earlier hdmi connections. they are SOL. i am waiting for this all to come to a head audio and video wise, then i intend to buy a nice lexicon upgradeable preamp so i can listen to sacds dvd audio and other newer formats in there true formats as designed. regards jim:barf:

Somewhere in there is something I want to quote:

Yeah, I agree (I think). I'm about to discard a perfectly good printer which would probably last me the rest of my life because Macs no longer have serial ports. The only way I can continue to use it would be with the cost of the space and considerable inconvenience to keep an old computer set up for a print station.

David

[Mr. Widget]

SACD is the best thing since good vinyl, but its quality (like the quality of a good PCM recording) is veiled by the analogue output section of most players. And its quality is also hidden be the other compromises that are summarized in the Audio Tools citation.I agree... I think Sony has made a mistake in offering really bad SACD capability in their dirt cheap players. It is obvious why they have done it... to increase the market for SACD discs... and like you I would be very disappointed if this wonderful format went the way of Betamax and the Elcassette. On the positive side they have enabled DonC to get the surround sound he likes and me to get the high quality 2-channel I like all on one disc... that is very cool.

As for copy right infringement? No one here is suggesting or recommending it. In fact if you hadn't mentioned it, I doubt any of would have noticed it. Beyond that there is only copyright infringement if someone makes an illegal copy. The player and mods may allow you to do this, but in no way require you to.

I hate the planned obsolescence in the computer world too... but, in this case... SACD, it is an incredible opportunity to have source material at this level available to the general public for a couple of extra bucks.


Widget

[johnaec]

for example i have held off buying a hd tv for fear of not having the right connection when hd players became available.There's something to start a good new business with - a lossless switchable adapter that will convert and interface between all formats and connector types, so no matter what you have you could get optimum connectivity. :bouncy: Of course, I have no idea if this would even be technically possible...

John

[Titanium Dome]

Somewhere in there is something I want to quote:

Yeah, I agree (I think). I'm about to discard a perfectly good printer which would probably last me the rest of my life because Macs no longer have serial ports. The only way I can continue to use it would be with the cost of the space and considerable inconvenience to keep an old computer set up for a print station.

David

You could get one of these.

http://search.ebay.com/search/search.dll?from=R40&satitle=asantetalk

Hurry, the page may change!

I use one of these at home to keep my LaserWriter Select 360 running. It's hooked by Ethernet to my wireless router, so I can print to this old, reliable, terrific AppleTalk printer from anywhere in the house.

I also use one to print to an even older Personal LaserWriter 320 at work, wirelessly from my PowerBook through the network to the AsanteTalk® to the printer.

[Titanium Dome]

David

Here's the Asante Web page. I guess you can still order a new one for lots more money.

http://www.asante.com/products/CardsAdapters/AsanteTalk.asp

NOW back to SACD. Sorry for the OT comments.

[speakerdave]

You could get one of these.

Thank you.

[Titanium Dome]

I frequent this discussion at AVS.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?f=112

I'm more interested in DVD-A, but this AVS forum covers both, plus other formats as well. I even get in a few LaserDisc AC-3 licks now and then.

[Mr. Widget]

I'm more interested in DVD-A...Why?


Widget

[Titanium Dome]

Why?


Widget

Practical reason: I have two DVD-A players and no SACD players.

Technical reasons: My interests lie both in two-channel and multi-channel sound, as well as integrated media (sound + vision). SACD started out more as an ultra two-channel format while DVD-A was more multimedia from the get-go.

I like DVD-A's MLP, data capacity, and super low noise floor. I also like the video capability which from the beginning allowed DVD-A discs to be richer in feature sets. Listening to Emmylou Harris's Producer's Cut in multichannel sound while browsing her photo album is a very nice experience.

I'm not knocking SACD at all. It's just that I got started by choice with DVD-A, and like Jim I'm not ready to buy another marginally accepted technology at this time. The selections for both SACD and DVD-A are disappointing in terms of availability, and now we have another just around the corner.

[Rusnzha]

Originally written by speakerdave
Is this what the Lansing Heritage forum has become now? One of those places on the internet where cheaters can exchange information on how to cheat copyright laws and licensing agreements? The shame!
Do these holier than thou rantings serve any purpose? Maybe the real crooks are the ones who are causing these products to perform so far below their potential. Charles Dickens said that "sometimes the law is an ass." This is one more instance that proves the truth of his statement.

[speakerdave]

Originally written by speakerdave
Do these holier than thou rantings serve any purpose?
Good question! I hope asking it introspectively gets around. My answer--probably not. Why this one then? Well, it did serve a rather minor and unimportant purpose. I'd like to explain, but I won't, because satire really has to work on the first try or forget it.


Originally written by speakerdave Maybe the real crooks are the ones who are causing these products to perform so far below their potential.
Well, I'm not going to call them crooks right now, but I will say that launching a new standard has got to be one of the most challenging and fearsome moments in business, especially since, as in the case of Darwin and Wallace, the ideas just seem to trickle down out of the ethers in pairs, at least. I think mistakes have been made in the case of SACD (and there has been outright cheating). I hope it turns out like the Apple/Mac story where the idea survived despite the screwups of the people who once owned it.

David

[Rusnzha]

Fair enough!

[Ken Pachkowsky]

I must confess to not having read the possible copyright infringement information at the end of the disclaimer section. I got board with the standard "If you fry the machine or yourself I do not accept responsibility stuff". I would not intentionally promote others doing anything illegal especially on a public site.

That being said, I compared this modification to that of modifying a JBL crossover to enhance its performance or in my case replacing all 160 of my bi-pass caps to wima 1.0uf caps in my HRX crossover. It certainly enhanced its performance.

I would ask that the link be removed by the appropriate moderator, if they feel it should be.

Ken

[Mr. Widget]

I would ask that the link be removed by the appropriate moderator, if they feel it should be.
Seems like a non-issue to me...

However, where the hell is your report back to us on the DAC? Get on over to the DAC thread and post your review!;)


Widget

[Ken Pachkowsky]

However, where the hell is your report back to us on the DAC? Get on over to the DAC thread and post your review!;)

Widget

Truth is, I been under the weather since Wednesday. Hopefully I will get it posted over the next couple of days.

Ken

[Rudy Kleimann]

Is this what the Lansing Heritage forum has become now? One of those places on the internet where cheaters can exchange information on how to cheat copyright laws and licensing agreements?

The shame!

David

PS: I've eliminated the URL from my quotation of Ken's post so as not to add to the iniquity, but I have a copy of it in case any of our moderators wants to check what I just said.

I rather resent when someone starts playing the role of God and Conscience here. Next thing, they'll be proclaiming that trying other brands (or even other model numbers of genuine JBL) diaphragms and cone kits in our own JBL model xxxx drivers is Heresy, and any posts regarding such "inappropriate behavior" should be deleted! :(

None of us here are going into business of manufacturing products for profit that would undermine the manufacturers marketing of a new product or technology nor recoup their investment in the R&D. It's all for fun, learning, and to satisfy the modder in each of us. Nothin' more, nothin' less. And that is one of the, if not the main reason for this forums' existence, right? :o:

Stop worrying so much, and please refrian from the condescending approach when correcting an error on the part of others. Share what you can, and be kind about it... I would rather feel enlightened than reprimanded!!!

***And now, we return to our regularly-scheduled program***

A few years ago, my neighbor unsuccesfully searched for one of the early Sony DVD-7000ES players that were factory-built with the internal DIP switches for selecting the DVD Region code and CopyGuard protection. These players gained notoriety on News Forums just like this one, until Hollywood complained to Sony about it. Eventually, Sony bowed to pressure from Hollywood (and enjoyed good sales of the player), building a dedicated Region1 only player for the US market.

My neighbor gave up the hunt, settled for a non-switchable model, and later found an internet source on a DVD Forum for a mod kit to do it. I helped him install the mod, which was a new BIOS chip and two jumper wires. It would play all region codes and removed the CopyGuard signal from the S-Video outputs.

He used it to play a couple of DVD's sent from overseas friends, and transcribed them to SVHS. BTW, the discs were never marketed here and therefore did not constitue a violation of business ethics or copyright laws. I later bought the player from him (and still own it) and made three or four transcriptions to VHS of DVD movies I bought. I only did it because my parents didn't yet own a DVD player yet at that time, and I didn't want to drag my $1000 DVD player around just to enjoy a special movie with my Family at my parents' home.

Later, the $129 Brooksonic DVD player that played all region codes and had no CopyGuard hit the market, and became common knowledge on many Audio and Video Newsgroups and Forums. Nobody seemed to care, not even Hollywood.

As always, it costs more for the recording medium and is too time-consuming to ever make a profitable business of dubbing or scamming movies from another DVD region. For myself, it was a rarely-exercised labor of love and a protection of my investment in High-end hardware.

I have always felt that once I own something, it is mine to do what I please with it, so long as someone else doesn't get cheated or hurt. if I modify it to suit my own interest and it works, great! If I blow it up, oh well... part of the cost of having fun :p

[speakerdave]

Rudy, I feel your effort deserves a response, but you have obviously missed the point, and to explain it would be just to perpetuate a fiasco, so let me say, the whole thing is in the past hopefully; just let it be.

On the other hand, if you want to have a debate about copyright laws and various industry practices, try starting a thread in the Non Audio Forum. You'd probably get lots of takers.


David

[Rudy Kleimann]

No, no. Don't want to stir up the natives-:p

This was the first thread I read in a couple of days, and was taken aback by the turn the thread had taken and felt the need to respond. But then, I read a couple other threads tonight involving out-of-control egos and the martyrs laying bleeding in the streets.
I want none of that. :bs: Is it a full moon?

I've been out of touch with the State of the art in Digital Audio, and am similarly naiive to the technical details and differences of DVD-A, SACD, differing datastreams available, and the use of outboard D/A convertors with these variants.

I need to get educated on it, as it appears my faithful performer, a Proceed PCD-2, is on the fritz.:( I called Harmon/Levinson about factory service, and they informed me that they will only accept it for repair if I pre-authorize a limit of -get this- $950!!! :biting: The unit retailed for $2200, and I bought it new for $1800 when the PCD-3 came out in late 1993. I couldn't friggin' believe it! I asked the factory service person if he were certain, considering that the player is 12 years old, and he seemed offended by my doubting his accuracy. Somebody (many) said Harmon sucks...

Any suggestions for a reputable service alternative? I have about 1500 CD's in my collection, and the player, although old, is still a fine-sounding player on CD format. My neighbors' 3-yr old Sony SCD-C555ES SACD player didn't even come close on CD Audio (although SACD discs were better than what my Proceed could muster).

[speakerdave]

I don't know a lot of CD players, but I will say that 13 years is not a bad run. It's nice when this stuff lasts forever, but sometimes it doesn't.

I loved my Philips SACD1000, but it died in 18 months and is not repairable; you may have heard of that particular case of corporate malfeasance. I'm now listening to a Denon 5900, which is pretty MOR. It's OK on audio, very nice for DVD. The Philips had an output section that could handle playing straight into a power amp with input level controls. The Denon can't do that, and I have not yet fully explored all the elements in that system to find out what the optimum setup for the Denon is. It is quite listenable, but does not give you that spooky thrill of realism that the Philips would lay on you now and then. In the next couple of years I will be shopping for an audio-specific player.

David

[Rudy Kleimann]

I don't know a lot of CD players, but I will say that 13 years is not a bad run. It's nice when this stuff lasts forever, but sometimes it doesn't.

I loved my Philips SACD1000, but it died in 18 months and is not repairable; you may have heard of that particular case of corporate malfeasance. David

You're right, but the player has XLR analog outputs that drives my system (and us), to the point of audio ecstasy with ease. Especially with a friends' Krell amp with balanced inputs in the audio chain. Hauled around to many a friends' place for a showdown, and it always came out on top. At home, it took on all comers as well. All in all, in a "CD only" audio performance comparison, it met with a couple of equals, but never was downright beaten -even "by decision". I was truly pleased that I broke down and bought it Brand-new instead of my typical 2-3 year old second-hand. And, although DVD-A and SACD can clearly outperform this units' best efforts, the hardware for these formats have been in a constant state of flux. The few units I have tried seem to have been too much of a mixed bag in performance to win me over enough to part with the cash.

I don't think my player is really badly hurt- it started breaking into a loud, "white noise" tantrum after being on for a while, and I put it away for a year or two while listening to other toys in the house. Recently, I pulled it out, and tried it again. After a couple of misloads and trouble initializing on the Table of contents, everything went well -for about an hour. After that it started acting up again, only this time it would fall silent. Maybe the laser? Maybe the analog circuits? Maybe the DAC? :dont-know

Not sure I follow you about the Philips. What do you mean? Did they stop making it, or was it a POS mechanically?

[Mr. Widget]

Rudy, if your player was that good it is unlikely that $950 invested on any other player will be as good. Maybe you should just bite the bullet and get it fixed.


Widget

[Rudy Kleimann]

I hear you, Widget. But an "open check" for $950 + shipping both ways at Harmon/Proceed is more than a little unnerving. It may well not run that much, but who knows? I'd like to find a reputable firm that would give it a good troubleshoot and firm repair price for a reasonable fee if I refuse the repair. Any qualified referrals would be appreciated.:help:

Even better, a good DVD-A and SACD player with CD performance that equals or surpasses this one at a fair price. Mind you, I did spend $1800 in '93, so I'm not cheap. But, in my past experiments, the players I did try out had shortcomings of one kind or another, and I ended up passing on them. Granted the new audio formats sounded great, but it seemed that the manufacturers were willing (or intended) to have mediocre to good (but not great) CD Audio performance in their new multi-format machines. And the incompatibility issues between SACD and DVD-Audio hardware left me a little irritated. I can't justify replacing my entire CD collection with new discs in the data format of my choice as they become available (and at great cost). How long before my next investment becomes an abandoned format?

Used to be, it was simple: 16 bit 44.1KHz stereo was it. The first major change in audio playback since the vinyl stereo LP. Lots of benefits to CD's: small, easy, 50-100 year life span with minimal effort and care.

Now you have to compare CD, SACD, DVD-A, 24/96, 2Ch, 5.1Ch, and DVD video performance all in the same machine during auditions. Add to that the different bitstream outputs, different methods of data translation for decoding the various other formats, etc. (ad nauseum).

Maybe it's time to give it another try :dont-know. I've got a lot of studying to do to understand my options and the current SOTA. Any recommendations at $1K?