Welcome Lar!
You have made it through the saga. Good luck with your VAl's. I know of some great Altec finds here in Alaska. How about in your neck of the great white north?
Scott.
Welcome Lar!
You have made it through the saga. Good luck with your VAl's. I know of some great Altec finds here in Alaska. How about in your neck of the great white north?
Scott.
One step above: "Two Tin Cans and a String!"
Longtime Alaskan Low-Fi Guy - E=MC² ±3db
Alaska!!!????,crazy. Like through the ports or the long,LONG highway? It still amazes me how things start somewhere and spread out all over and even return home again sometimes. So is Alaska where all the greens are? And does ANYONE ever see the bigger orange ones ever? Curious,I have never heard of them here and only saw them SOMEWHERE in a catalog and I can't even remember when or where,musta been in Wyoming...and what or why are the oranges not so known or did they have a specifc purpose,or just fell out of the pack with time?Originally Posted by SMKSoundPro
Last edited by 00Robin; 10-10-2007 at 04:11 AM. Reason: spelling
I can't believe I went through this. Thank you to all the contributors...
Wish I had read through all this first.. before I bought a pair of Valencia 846Bs.
I was inspired by a friend, who owned a pair of these and drove them beautifully with Conrad Johnson electronics. I heard the lack of highs and deep bass but they sounded warm, seductive and unlike horns.
His Valencias were highly modified. I thought I get a pair and mod them with his help. Hoping to get the same results.
Then comes Zilchlabs and all of the great research on horn drivers, compensation circuits and so on.... it looked great on paper.
How do the results sound? Any new developments? New drivers? New XOs and compensation circuits? Anything on modifying the bass cabinets? Or has everyone given up..?
Although I do not have Valencias, I have 9844-8Bs, I have to chime-in here, just to be able to say I was in on this monumental thread at least once.
In my case, should have completely read this thread before trying to integrate a tweeter or supertweeter into my system. Learned the hard way by making a lot of mistakes.
Long story short, I've got BMS 4552NDs on my 811-B horns running flat to near 20kHz and sounding great. I found with my stock crossover (N-800-F) and another (search "M-19Z") no additional HF compensation is required. The horn is flat relatively on axis with this setup.
Both crossovers have great potential, at least in the 9844s, and eventually a choice will be made between the two. For now I'm on 9844 hiatus. But for sure, BMS has fixed any HF issues.
I'm sure you know, since you read this thread, that Zilch is a patient man and very generous. And inspired.
Thanks for putting up with the likes of me, Z.
Skywave-Rider. It was a rough trip for me too in adding tweeters to my model 19's with no test equipment but once I finally caught on that most of my problems/confusion was caused by the phase difference between the 802's and EV T-350 tweeters, it was fairly easy.
I kept forgetting that the 802 diaphrams are mounted differently than the diaphrams in the T-350's so they were really out of phase with each other if I used red for + on both.
Once that was resolved I quickly discovered that an xover point of 27KHZ at 6db/octave works for me so I guess that shows that the 802's almost make it but not quite and they need a little reinforcement in their upper range plus a little extension for the Model 19's to sound like a full range speaker to me.
I wanted to try the BMS drivers but I was afraid the character would be different than that of the aluminum diaphram 802's.
Do they sound more or less the same to you or are the the BMS drivers a little softer sounding?
Dave
Bottom line, I believe we learned a lot about what Valencias actually are, and that's substantially less than what many used to believe them to be.
With that recognition, however, also came a realization that there are many worthwhile paths for those desiring to improve them to pursue.
Whether it's via straightforward biamping with HF compensation or comprehensive swapouts using modern drivers and filters, both Valencias and Altecs more generally have benefited from this work.
I suppose there are those who may have given up, but that's certainly none of us....
Dave:
You took the concerns right out of my mouth. Does the BMS "upgrade" alter the essential character of the Valencias that many found attractive?
What about the horn damping,cap swapping,.. and the other so call tweaks etc...? Do they still matter in light of the comprehensive work performed by Zilch and others?
What about the bass bottoms?
It would be great to hear from long term Val owners who performed the upgrade. Do they still like their Valencias.... in the same way.
Or I should just sell the 846Bs that I just bought.
I don't want to pretend to be an Altec expert but I can tell you things based on my own experience with them.
I had Flamencos and there were no highs to speak of but PLENTY of forward mids and sort of OK bass.
Turning up the 806's to get more highs wasn't an option because the mids also came up to the point of being very harsh and hornlike and I don't like equalizers.
I had the EV tweeters on the Flamencos crossed over at around 8KHZ at 6db/ocave BUT the phase thing didn't dawn on me then and the tweeter addition was never quite right but because the listening room was the living room with wall to wall carpet, drapes and stuffed furniture the cancellation and overbright was somewhat obscured and/or tamed but I had my missing highs.
When I moved, the Flamencos went into a live small room and the ugly problems of boom boom bass and ear bleed upper mids(overlap) and highs with the added tweeters showed up.
My Flamencos had the "port" around the 811 opening in the baffle so the tuning was poor and rather than screw around with bigger boxes and tuning I felt that the 19's with bigger boxes and 416B woofers would give me the bass I wanted.
So that and based on what I had read about the Model 19's I snagged a pair on E-Bay that was close enough to pick up because they are rare down here in the south.
The lack of highs for my taste was no surprise to me so that wasn't a problem and the tamed midrange via the xover network EQ was a lot more natural sounding to me than the Flamenco mids were although not as engaging at first.
The 19's bass is really tuned too high BUT it works well for me in my small room with no boom boom and I don't need bass boost like I did with the Flamencos.
Tampering with the tuning could extend the bass downward but it could also make the 19's sound like there's less bass bacause of the shift in response humps so I'll leave good enough alone.
I guess you have some choices with your Valencias but to me the biggest improvement would be changing the 806's to the BMS drivers if they have about the same character as the 806's.
Adding a tweeter to what you have is more complicated because the 806's drop of faster then the 802-Gs so the "blend" factor is more of an issue than I had by crossing over so high on the 19's.
Plus I didn't alter the 19 xovers to add the tweeters.
The horn ring problem may be an issue but I never felt a need to deal with that on the Flamencos or the 19's.
It's always good to shoot for what's right on paper BUT sometimes you have to trust your ears because your the one that has to be happy with the sonics of your system. Not me or anyone else.
I'm sure lots of Altec fans would think my system sounds too bright with the added tweeters but for me they are a must because I know what I'm not hearing from my favorite LP's without them.
I would like to see a thread started by people that have changed out the 806 drivers for the BMS drivers to see what the sonic results were.
Hi Dave.
I assume you mean 7kHz as a mid to high x-over point...?
I tried T-35s (K-77s) and had serious comb filter issues and imaging problems. I also tried the Eminence APT50 which unlike the T-35, gave extended HF but I was never able to resolve comb filter problems. I did employ RTA supplementing my ears to determine polarity of the drivers.
About the sound of the BMS:
I did fairly complete listening evaluations comparing the original Altec 902 driver and the BMS on both N-800F and M-19Z crossovers with/without woofers in 2.5 mode. (9844-8-Bs have dual 414 woofers.)
I won't reiterate but I will say this:
I can appreciate and enjoy the characteristics of any good vintage system regardless of its flaws. Extreme example: There's a store a few blocks away which sells Edison cylinders and players and I love to hear those old horns. They're beautiful on many levels.
I'm willing to bet you feel likewise.
So I can listen to my 902s (no comparison to Edison cylinders, LOL), which extend to 20kHz, btw, and appreciate what they do, but in my case I'm always aware of the severe undulations in response throughout the HF. The 802s, from the charts I've seen, do the same thing, but not ultimately through to 20kHz.
Roller coaster HF may be part of the Altec sound. Not sure. For me a lush midrange is as well, and I think the BMS drivers compliment that nicely.
I will add that with BMS 4552NDs mounted in that system, one can hear what the 811-B horn actually does with a flat driver connected to it.
Perhaps your concerns center on the diaphragm type, i.e. mylar vs. aluminum.
I can only compare the 902/4552. Down the line I would like to get some JBL al or ti drivers in there for comparison -- always looking for cheap 2420s.
My latest measurements here:
http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/s...&postcount=186
Listening evaluations begin around here:
http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/s...&postcount=189
Zilch receives my 902s and measures them beginning here:
http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/s...&postcount=206
(additional measurements by Zilch and nice waterfall plots are found in subsequent posts.)
Zilch interprets and explains my evaluation/measurements:
http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/s...&postcount=200
No Skywave-Rider. I do mean 27KHZ.
The 8 ohm tweeters are added with just a .68 cap in series with them and they are connected to the same 8 ohm amp taps that the Model 19's are connected to as in a bi-wire, not bi-amp configuration.
I did not roll off the 802's with an inductor but the so called HF control on the 19's is set to just before the "normal" zone and that setup works well for me.
That's why I said the 802G's almost do it but not quite. Apparently the 6db/octave tweeter xover at that high xover frequency allows for a non offensive overlap of the upper 802 response and also adds some extended or more of a flat HF response.
I understand the HF controls aren't really mid/HF level controls but they apparently do change the point where the bypass cap on the xover resistors
EQ the 802's.
The 802's and 902's may go out to 20KHZ but they aren't flat out to at least 16KHZ and that's the real problem isn't it?
I have two Edison Cylinder machines and lots of cylinders but I prefer to jump about 55 years to tube electronics, PM speakers and LP's for serious listening.
T35's or the Altec 3000 tweeters I have don't do the job. They get lost but the T-350's are more efficient.
Hi Dave,
Sorry, I see I misread ur post and see u said T-350s, not T-35s. I know those are superior to the T-35s, but I have no experience with them.
Well, if running them in at 6dB per octave straight from the amp works with a 27kHz point, cool. I'd like to know how you have those mounted -- and oriented? That's probably critical and I'd like to see how you've done that. Any pics?
If you have RTA of your rig, that would be cool to see as well.
Hello Gents,
It's been a while since my last post. We'll still own my speakers, but have moved them out of my listening room (two channel) and into my home theater. The speakers were too imposing in my listening room, they really need space. So....my plan is to get another pair (plus), tweak them as before and then have a horn speaker home theater. I have to admit, just having them as my front L/R speakers, I have been startled many times by the sheer speed and attack the present on some soundtracks. I can only imagine what it would sound like as a total surround package. If/when I find another speaker or pair I'll put the center channel within a custom built cabinet which will house the speaker plus electronics, media, etc. I have a two ALON Thunderbolt subs hooked up as well, so my low end is fast, articulate and deep. This should be fun!
VTUBE6:Hello Gents,
It's been a while since my last post. We'll still own my speakers, but have moved them out of my listening room (two channel) and into my home theater. The speakers were too imposing in my listening room, they really need space. So....my plan is to get another pair (plus), tweak them as before and then have a horn speaker home theater. I have to admit, just having them as my front L/R speakers, I have been startled many times by the sheer speed and attack the present on some soundtracks. I can only imagine what it would sound like as a total surround package. If/when I find another speaker or pair I'll put the center channel within a custom built cabinet which will house the speaker plus electronics, media, etc. I have a two ALON Thunderbolt subs hooked up as well, so my low end is fast, articulate and deep. This should be fun!
What changes have u done?
Last post said you added RAVEN tweeter and swapped stock caps for Solens. Is that it? Did you do the Zilchlab change?
kwingylee
Skywave,
Now that the system sounds OK to me I've neglected to do refinements and I just relax and listen to music like I always wanted to but never could because I was always listening to the speakers/electronics and faulting something.
One of those refinements being tweeter mounting and positioning.
I did find that the tweeters being propped up a bit and placed midway on top of the 19's sounds OK to me like they are integrated into the 802/811 very well. I can't tell what's coming from where unless I put my ear in front of the T-350's.
I don't hear an obvious overlap in any range or any blend problems.
If I remove the tweeters I miss hearing things I know are on my favorite LP's. That's mostly the more subtle things like brushes on cymbals but in general everything in the upper range sounds better to me and just a lot more detailed.
I don't have any test equipment that would plot a curve of what I'm listening too but running a frequency sweep sounds as if the speakers are fairly flat to my ears in my room.
When I have some disposable income I do want to try the BMS drivers just to see what they sound like and if I can be happy with them in a two way system.
The only pic I have handy right now is on a foreign website and the link is below. If you get popup's about loading a foreign language program just keep clicking on cancel because the website is in English so look for owners systems then Dave V.
The room is small but the 19's sound fine to me in there and I wonder why so many people think you can't put big speakers in small rooms.
The only drawback is that the best "sweet spot" is confined to a small area in that near field situation.
I worked for RT Bozak and three high end audio companies so I'm not a total hack but I don't listen by specs or graphs either.
I've seen specs that were almost ideal yet the speaker or equipment sounded like $hit so I'm over the spec issue and more into pleasing my own ears.
I've owned quite a few speakers of different types and was involved with some that sold for $55,000 a pair but so far the Model 19's with the added tweeters please me the most overall for all kinds of music. Dynamics are evrything to me.
One might argue that I've just created an upper mid/high shelf with the added tweeter but since the 802G's seem to drop off at around 11KHZ then isn't some boost or reinforcement needed?
The missing link. LOL http://www.ys-audio.com/ys-audio_eng.htm
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