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Thread: Mastered for iTunes

  1. #16
    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Titanium Dome View Post
    Yes indeed, why would you? It's not like it's the topic of this thread you're commenting in or anything.
    No, I mean why would I spend the time to read through ten pages hyping Apple and giving tips and pointers on how to make mediocre sound, sound it's best.

    I applaud the intention, but still find it falls far short... don't get me wrong, the fact that they even acknowledge that there is such a thing as digital quality is a vast improvement over "perfect sound forever" but that isn't the point. Since my days of endless hours in the studio and music recording are long past, it really doesn't pertain to my current avocation, the reproduction of music.


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  2. #17
    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Titanium Dome View Post
    It's not like it's the topic of this thread you're commenting in or anything.
    I mentioned the topic of the thread.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Widget View Post
    As for iTunes, the store... I have no use for it until they offer 16/44.1 or better, losslessly.

    But I did find the parallel subjects more interesting. Don't get me wrong, it is both interesting and likely a positive step that Apple is acknowledging improvements made and also acknowledging room for more improvement still.

    I hope that Apple or their successor(s) embrace studio quality. I am not sure what the market is for that level of quality, but I hope a big player steps in to find out.


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  3. #18
    Senior Member jcrobso's Avatar
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    Yes, internert for a telephone, or any other audio transmission.

    Quote Originally Posted by pathfindermwd View Post
    jcrobso

    Not sure what you are saying. VOIP is using the internet for telephone.
    In the radio industry IP based technology is taking over. We get remote sports feeds from all over the country using IP based remote units. Comrex Access is what we use. I can even log into them using my smart phone and do a remote where ever I am located.
    If you can remain calm in a crises, you don't understand the situation!

  4. #19
    Senior Member pathfindermwd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jcrobso View Post
    In the radio industry IP based technology is taking over. We get remote sports feeds from all over the country using IP based remote units. Comrex Access is what we use. I can even log into them using my smart phone and do a remote where ever I am located.
    Ah, I see. Learned something new.

  5. #20
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    Cool.
    Out.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Widget View Post
    Yeah, and during the mid '80s as Japanese businesses bought up much of America it felt like we'd be speaking Japanese by now... their massive economic bubble changed that. Apple will not always be on top....

    As for iTunes, the store... I have no use for it until they offer 16/44.1 or better, losslessly.


    Widget
    I don't think the 80's thing is a good analogy.

    Certainly, Apple won't be on top forever, however they, and Amazon, Walmart, Google, and a few other companies are positioning themselves to be in control for a long time to come. If you don't think Apple is striving to be the primary music source for the planet, you're kidding yourself. Not trying to go all George Orwell on ya or anything, but for the near future it is important for Apple to limit the size of music files for portable devices, cloud servers, and cell/wifi networks that would come to a grinding halt if all iTunes users had lossless (actual) files. They have successfully lowered the standard and gotten very rich in the process.

    I agree with your iTunes store philosophy 100%. I currently don't use iTunes at all. I choose FLAC.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Widget View Post
    ....Don't get me wrong, it is both interesting and likely a positive step that Apple is acknowledging improvements made and also acknowledging room for more improvement still.

    I hope that Apple or their successor(s) embrace studio quality. I am not sure what the market is for that level of quality, but I hope a big player steps in to find out.


    Widget
    I don't know if I can give them a pat on the back for the improvements. I'm cynical I know, but they lowered the standard so far to make portability/storage work, I understand that. Now, 10 years in they bump the algorithm a little and introduce special software for the recording industry to use to make recordings sound their best on iTunes? I just don't trust them to do the right thing for the industry/public. I appreciate the average iTunes user will either enjoy or not notice the improvement....er, degradation.

    I agree 100%, but I think it's unlikely we'll see this type of improvement any time soon, or without an exorbitant price increase. The "Audiophile Upcharge" if you will. If HD Tracks or some of the other higher end distributors demonstrate they can be profitable, one of the media giants will buy them.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by rusty jefferson
    I don't think the 80's thing is a good analogy.

    Certainly, Apple won't be on top forever, however they, and Amazon, Walmart, Google, and a few other companies are positioning themselves to be in control for a long time to come. If you don't think Apple is striving to be the primary music source for the planet, you're kidding yourself. Not trying to go all George Orwell on ya or anything, but for the near future it is important for Apple to limit the size of music files for portable devices, cloud servers, and cell/wifi networks that would come to a grinding halt if all iTunes users had lossless (actual) files. They have successfully lowered the standard and gotten very rich in the process.
    Apple makes the most bread on the hardware not the content. Amazon, by contrast, is willing to lose money on the hardware to make money off the content. I don't care about either model: I want rationally priced, high quality content that belongs to me when I purchase it, whether I store it locally or in the cloud or in some unknown futuristic medium.

    We all have to get a clue, as you've noted, that the infrastructure and the curmudgeonly media companies were the main drags on file size and quality to begin with. Now there's a gradual loosening of both of those strictures, but you can't expect a stilted structure of a century to change in a decade without some sacrifice from those who want to see it improve. Companies follow profits, not aficionado pipe dreams, as does JBL/Harman with numerous iPod docks, entry-level consumer gear, and a very few high-priced, premium products that most here will not be able to afford without sacrifice.

    In the past and to a certain extent currently, the media companies still control the content game and are the ones who've insisted on all kinds of DRM, restrictions, and controls. This is public knowledge, well known, well documented, and freely admitted. Add in associations like the Blu-ray group, and it's a cluster frak of huge proportion. Without reading the entire contract between Apple and the big four media companies, it's mere speculation to assign responsibility to Apple alone for bit rates, file sizes, and bandwidth restrictions. No doubt there were horrendous negotiating sessions with Jobs and the corporate execs, egos on both sides exceeding the available space and air.

    The end result was something that was limited, restricted, and for some people less that the physical status quo, but it was still a step toward a future that Jobs and some other smart people at Apple and elsewhere believed would be a revolution in the making. Eventually, DRM came off. Eventually iTune Plus came to be. Now, there's Mastered for iTunes.

    Perfect, no. Progress, yes. In the same range of time, LPs didn't improve as much; cassettes didn't improve as much, CDs didn't improve as much. Notice I wrote range of time, not "same time period" because none of this happened simultaneously. It happened historically.

    Quote Originally Posted by rusty jefferson
    I agree with your iTunes store philosophy 100%. I currently don't use iTunes at all. I choose FLAC.
    That's a good choice; nonetheless:

    Dylan: But you’re gonna have to serve somebody, yes indeed You’re gonna have to serve somebody.

    I think FLAC is great. I spent a couple hundred bucks to get the Beatles' USB metal Apple with the remastered FLAC files on it. They sound great; just as good as the 320kbps MP3 files that play in iTunes. Not better IMO.

    There are some pieces of music I like that aren't available in FLAC or other high quality formats. I don't cut off my nose to spite my face. I listen to the lesser quality files that I can get, and I find it easy to enjoy the music rather than fret over the file type or bit rate. Now if a higher quality option is available, I'll take it if it's' reasonable and legal. No worries there, but I'm not going to lose the chance to hear great performances or favorite bits, even if the medium is not 100%. I'm unwilling to pay that opportunity cost.

    Quote Originally Posted by rusty jefferson
    I don't know if I can give them a pat on the back for the improvements. I'm cynical I know, but they lowered the standard so far to make portability/storage work, I understand that. Now, 10 years in they bump the algorithm a little and introduce special software for the recording industry to use to make recordings sound their best on iTunes? I just don't trust them to do the right thing for the industry/public. I appreciate the average iTunes user will either enjoy or not notice the improvement....er, degradation.
    Apple doesn't want a pat on the back from me, you, Widget, or anyone else, so no need to worry about that. They want people to buy their gear and use their content services. I know you know that, but you kind of made me write it. The credit I would give Apple is that it is moving the stake forward. Certainly part of that is to keep selling stuff, but part of it is also to set a higher standard as conditions allow. Apple gets dumped on all the time for relatively conservative upgrades or simply adding things that other vendors already have in their products. IME, other tech companies will throw in anything they can to have the latest gee-whiz technology, whether it works for most people or works at all. I live in the second-largest metro area in the US, and some companies were touting "4G" products and willing to let consumers sign up for expensive two-year contracts for 4G phones on networks that had no 4G service in 90% of the local area. We sure as heck didn't have it here, yet whiners were complaining about Apple not having a 4G device. Uh, well, there's no 4 G here. Now that it's actually becoming available, there's the "new" iPad, when the infrastructure is in place to make it meaningful and they can sell new, high margin products with technical features that can actually be used.

    I see the Mastered in iTunes as a similar step. With the cloud becoming a reality rather than complete vapor (see the pseudoscientific pun there), there's enough storage and bandwidth on the horizon to make it all work. Apple's $25 iTunes match will put all your non DRM music and old iTunes DRMed purchases in the cloud at 256kbps DRM free, even if you originally got it at 128kbps, whether from iTunes, emusic, your own ripped discs, etc. It's incremental improvement, but it is improvement.

    Actually, it's more than incremental improvement for the majority of iTunes users. It's a doubling. For those of us who deign, feign, or complain about needing much higher bit rates, it's at least incremental.

    Quote Originally Posted by rusty jefferson
    I agree 100%, but I think it's unlikely we'll see this type of improvement any time soon, or without an exorbitant price increase. The "Audiophile Upcharge" if you will. If HD Tracks or some of the other higher end distributors demonstrate they can be profitable, one of the media giants will buy them.

    I'm not sure what your 100% agreement is, but I think it's with Widget's "embrace studio quality" comment. If so, I'd like him to give a better comment on what that means. I've been in a lot of studios, including most recently AIX Studios in West LA (along with grumpy and JBLaddict). What's going on in that studio is a lot different than what's going on in some of the more mainstream studios I've been allowed to visit. If Widget means that AIX kind of studio standard, then yes, I'm in agreement. But if he means virtually all of the other studios where I've been, then, uh, pass on that standard. It's mostly retrograde s#!t when it comes to the mastering process. I'm more interested in forward moving approaches, and Mastered for iTunes has that feel to me.

    Neither Apple nor anyone else can take bad studio standard recordings and make them more than what they are. I know in theory some guys have said they could, but they've never proven it to my satisfaction. It appears that Apple is playing to the non-studio standard guys and gals who are mixing their own. The studios aren't going to change. They'll fight the loudness wars for a long time to come. But individuals mixing their own, young artists who want to avoid the studio system, veterans who are tired of being burned by the studios, they can all go around that behemoth and try Mastered for iTunes if they want. They get the tools for free. Apple gets access to the content at a predetermined and well-known price; the artists get hosting, sales, accounting, distribution, access to the largest market, and 70% of the take.

    If a consumer (that's most of us) doesn't want to wade through iTunes, that's fine. There's no need to do that. But if Apple's initiative produces one, then two, then four, then eight, then xx artists who make better mastered products of really good music that would never escape the studio system and we're ignoring the iTunes products out of principle or pretense, we could end up later to the party than we already are. I'm getting too old to miss any parties. I need to keep on dancing till the world ends.

    Out.

  8. #23
    Administrator Robh3606's Avatar
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    Why foam ITunes is just portable music for me. I purchase physical media and will continue to do so until the option is gone. At least they are moving in the right direction.

    Do any of you have ITunes? That last revision has the AAC VBR as an option in the encoder. I have been using MP3 VBR for years and the higher bit rates sound quite good. I am going to try the AAC VBR and see what's what.

    Rob
    "I could be arguing in my spare time"

  9. #24
    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    What is iTunes? Is it music management software or a store? I guess they want it to be everything to everyone and therefore like the confusion... now every time I launch the music software on my computer they want me to log in... I've never set up an account so I can't, but it still asks. That's kind of annoying, but it is a small price to pay for a free software package that does most things pretty well.

    What is studio quality? 24/96 at a minimum and DSD or 24/192 preferred. There have always been low end studios... back in the analog days there where folks who mastered onto 1/4 track 7½ ips or worse yet cassette tapes... low end pro studios used half track machines at 15 ips and the high end "audiophile" studios ran 1/2" or 1" tape at 30 ips.

    Ultimately, those are just formats though... and while you need a decent format, you need engineers and musicians who know what to do with it. Hi rez crap is still crap, whether it be poorly played or poorly mic'd.

    AAC VBR??? Where do you see that?


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  10. #25
    RIP 2021 SEAWOLF97's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Widget View Post
    AAC VBR??? Where do you see that?
    Widget
    I got the newest version yesterday and don't have that option either.

    For me, iTunes is just a method to transfer tunes to the mobile device,
    and it doesn't do that very well. The newer versions won't work with
    the new Nano.
    Some kind of happiness is measured out in miles

  11. #26
    Senior Member richluvsound's Avatar
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    Guys , click AAC and it appears in the bottom box

  12. #27
    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SEAWOLF97 View Post
    I got the newest version yesterday and don't have that option either.

    For me, iTunes is just a method to transfer tunes to the mobile device,
    and it doesn't do that very well. The newer versions won't work with
    the new Nano.
    It's not quite as easy as Rich made it sound, you have to click on AAC, then options and an additional window pops in where you can choose it. Se Below:

    Wolf, you've mentioned these problems before... I find that very strange. Latest iTunes and latest iPod and having trouble? I'd believe it if you had a 5 year old iPod and had trouble getting it to synch with the latest software or vice versa, but your situation seems odd. Have you dropped in to your local Genius Bar?


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  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Widget View Post
    Wolf, you've mentioned these problems before... I find that very strange. Latest iTunes and latest iPod and having trouble? I'd believe it if you had a 5 year old iPod and had trouble getting it to synch with the latest software or vice versa
    Widget
    Itunes on PC/XP3 ...Apple USB cable , straight from PC.
    iTouch works perfectly
    Nano isn't ID'ed or now ignored on same cable after swap.

    problem started AFTER one of the many iTunes version upgrades.

    Nano works fine on laptop with older vers. of iTunes. I won't let the LT
    upgrade iTunes at this point.

    Genius bar ?
    Some kind of happiness is measured out in miles

  14. #29
    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SEAWOLF97 View Post
    Genius bar ?
    Never been inside of an Apple Store? They offer amazing customer service... you usually need to make an appointment, but they have techies who will get you stuff working... they even know about Microsoft related "issues"... contact them and see if they will help.


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  15. #30
    Super Moderator jblnut's Avatar
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    I'll toss some coins in the fountain here for what it's worth...

    I have a number of iDevices and have been using them for about 5 years. I like their design and for the most part I am happy with their sound quality. However, I have purchased a grand total of *one* song on iTunes in the past 5 years, and that was because we were hosting a party and someone wanted to hear a song I somehow didn't have in my fairly large collection (2000 LPs, 1500 CDs, 50K+ MP3s). It was a quick and easy process and I can see why it's popular with some people.

    What I can't get past is why this "gotta have it now" generation is willing to pay the same or more for a 128k digital copy of the CD, just to get it ASAP. Wouldn't everyone rather have "all the bits", and the real media in hand if for no other purpose than to have a "backup" ? I know how I'm voting with my money, but I am clearly in the minority. The real reason is of course that no one is forced to buy the whole album any more, and we all know that a lot of albums have only a good song or two at most. Apple clearly knew that, and coupled with the "buy it now" mentality, they hit it out of the park.

    So now, many years later they have decided to up the ante to 256k. Having done a bunch of comparisons myself with MP3's at various bit rates, I know this will make a difference on some music. What I am somewhat interested in is the following:

    1) will they charge more now ?
    2) will they try and get people to re-buy their already purchased iTunes music all over again at 256k? This is a time-proven music industry practice we've all been through
    3) Will they FINALLY act like a decent corporation and KEEP TRACK of what you purchased so that you can download it again at a later date if your computer and mobile device both go kaput at once? Too many of my friends learned the hard way early on with iTunes that it's up to you to do your own backups. And will this be free or will they charge some kind of "cloud" fee for it ? They don't need to re-store all the songs again (a bit for bit copy of your data), they just need to check that you have purchased it and let you download it again.

    Steve's gone...will the money machine continue ? I think the next gen is going to be eyeglass-based with voice and retina scanned control.
    When they all have 100TB internal storage (or 100PB), we'll all look back on this compression craze and laugh....

    jblnut

    (I'm a data storage guy and the time when we're all walking around with terabytes is just around the corner)

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