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Thread: JBL 4367 first listen

  1. #271
    Member Fitero's Avatar
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    Hmmm,
    even though I think that I am explaining myself coherently, I am probably doing so poorly and leaving things out.

    I think it is clear to most that the M2 and 4367 are closely related, but differ mostly in that the former require DSP and the latter do not, as they have their traditional crossover within the enclosures.

    My point specifically was to point out the possible difference in musicality between amplifiers while using the correct BSS DSP for the M2's. I personally am not interested in pursuing DSP solutions other than that designed by Harman.

    I'd love to try the M2's with the requisite I-tech amplifiers. The fan noise make this a no go for me though.

    I believe the following with little knowledge to back it up;
    Each and every component and cable in the audio chain manifests intrinsic and specific electronic LCR properties, which in conjunction with the whole of the audio chain effect the resultant audio signal produced. In my experience, my 4367's allowed me to discern these small changes in the sound when I would change some component or cable. I don't know what characteristic of the 4367 is responsible for this.

  2. #272
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    Quote Originally Posted by hsosdrum View Post
    Originally Posted by hsosdrum *If you're not running the M2 DSP program you don't have M2's. Period. You can tweak that DSP plenty and still have what the designers intended, but you can't eliminate it.


    If you don't use the Harman-developed M2 DSP (or a perfect copy of it) you're not listening to M2s, the same as if you removed the 2216Nd woofers and replaced them with some other driver. It would not be the speaker that Alan and Charles designed (using drivers designed by Jerry Morro and Alex Voishvilo), it would be some other speaker. You may like it better, but it wouldn't be an M2.

    The same goes for the home-built versions that have been talked about around this forum. If you build your own M2 at home you have to copy every aspect of its physical design if your speaker is to perform identically to a Harman-built M2. For example, the "real" M2 has a stepped baffle panel that puts the vent openings proud of the woofer baffle.

    During development we listened to the prototypes in several different listening rooms (two of which were built according to IEC specs, others of which were not). Sometimes the DSP was even tweaked via computer during the listening test, allowing us to compare different approaches. Developing and finalizing the DSP took months. (

    Listening to the final production version of the M2 in Harman's large IEC listening room was the most uncanny experience I've ever had listening to reproduced music (I've been in the industry since 1977 and have heard literally thousands of different speakers in hundreds of different rooms). No matter what program material I played on the speakers (I auditioned them for over an hour and was able to use music I recorded in my own studio as well as commercially-available recordings and some of the bit-for-bit digital transfers that JBL engineers used), the M2s simply weren't there.
    There are a few points I would like to address:

    1. Do you think Harman has a "hang up" about JBL diy folks calling their projects M2 systems when there are going to be differences in the diy space that impact on factory system performance?

    You seem to feel strongly that "unless that and that" its not an M2.

    2. Can you please describe Harman's large IEC listening room?

    It seems your audio nirvana belongs in that room. That a pretty exclusive "space" in which to be making those sort of claims. l'd personally hold that to myself as you could be over selling the Harman spin.

    After all, anyone on the planet knows that "the" room has a huge impact on the subjective impressions of any loudspeaker. I am wondering how important an IEC room is to those wide dispersion wave guides? The vintage 4430-4435's certainly behave differently in the context of the family living room.

    Back to the JBL diy person versions you referenced what could the Mr average expect in his humble family room? Perhaps it will put the time consuming M2 clones in poor light? Maybe further DSP tweaking will be required.

    That leads me to the final point.

    3. Given all the hubba over the JBL made M2 "system rules", if the JBL diy person decides to be pragmatic or stamp his own ideas into the "Mix" it might well be be a less "precious" course and ultimately more rewarding journey.

    Food for thought. I am curious where the crusade will all end.

  3. #273
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    Quote Originally Posted by pos View Post

    I am also not a big fan of steep crossovers, but that is another subject
    What is "steep crossovers" exactly? Is 48dB/oct steep, and 24dB/oct not steep? 36dB/oct steep?

  4. #274
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    Quote Originally Posted by baldrick View Post
    If
    Another intersting thing:

    This dealer in Norway have both 4367 and M2 setup in the same room... M2 powered by SDA4600 and 4367 Powered by ML 585. I haven't listened myself but the owner says that the 4367 sound "way" better than the M2 setup.
    Fun to see them side by side. I thought that the 4367 were subwoofers at first. Would be fun to hear why the dealer thinks that the 4367 sounds way better. I personally think that they should much alike with the same crossover, but the different shapes of the waveguides and boxes might strongly effect the sound.

  5. #275
    Senior Member pos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Mackenzie View Post
    After all, anyone on the planet knows that "the" room has a huge impact on the subjective impressions of any loudspeaker. I am wondering how important an IEC room is to those wide dispersion wave guides? The vintage 4430-4435's certainly behave differently in the context of the family living room.
    Ian, you probably already know this presentation, but this extract is very relevant here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrpUDuUtxPM&t=4302

  6. #276
    Senior Member pos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bubbleboy76 View Post
    What is "steep crossovers" exactly? Is 48dB/oct steep, and 24dB/oct not steep? 36dB/oct steep?
    Very steep, like hundreds of dB per Hz like you will typically find in (windowed) brickwall implementations.
    But this is even more OT than the M2 discussion here

  7. #277
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    Yeah l saw it’s nice sales pitch.

    It’s s great wave guide but the fact remains the room does have an impact.

    What Harman does with their room is one thing. Then compare to the uncontrolled random domain of real people in real homes with the even more random audio nut behaviours messing around with a diy M2.

    Let’s be rational for a moment and you’ve never seen or hear the M2.

    Most people agree a live quartet of musicians playing will sound different in rooms with different acoustics.

    For example if they played in your lounge room compared to any other room on the planet.

    That is a fact.

    Jbls M2 magic is the illusion it paints that has won favour.

    That’s an impressive bit of audio science turned into a marketable loudspeaker.

    But they are beating the drum pretty hard to have you believe it and you’ll end up wearing your heart on your sleeve.

    However, astute musicians might not agree. No names.

    The reality is it’s an Illusion compared to the quartet playing live.

    If you think the M2 sounds better than the quartet you’ve been suckered.

    That large IEC room must something.

    I’m not saying the M2 illusion is bad.

    Just be careful not to loose sight of reality.

  8. #278
    Administrator Robh3606's Avatar
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    Just be careful not to loose sight of reality.
    Good advice

    Rob
    "I could be arguing in my spare time"

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    Wait till l get my green card. 😝

  10. #280
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    Quote Originally Posted by pos View Post
    Hello Mitch,


    What do you mean exactly?


    Regarding in-room measurements for automatically doing speaker+room correction, I must say I am not a "automated correction" type of guy (and rephase reflects that).
    I have no doubt automated corrections can lead to good results, but the spinorama approach (which relies an automated measurement tools) associated with manual corrections (experienced human brain) and listening session (pairs of hears) is a tough one to beat, and the M2 is the perfect example of that approach.

    I think JBL is embracing DSP concepts the right way: automated measurement process, automated LF room corrections (including multiple subs arrangements), but manual corrections (and listening tests) for the speaker itself because it only has to be done once (independently of the room the speaker will be installed in, if it is well behaved) and has to be done well.
    Manual corrections take more efforts and time, but most of the burden is on the measurement side (very time consuming).
    They have now integrated Trinnov technology in their to synthesis processor, so we will see what happens, but I doubt they plan to use it for crossover duty.

    I am also not a big fan of steep crossovers, but that is another subject
    Hey Thomas, thanks for rePhase.

    A few short answers as I don't want to derail thread. Phase linearizing a non-time aligned speaker sounds different to me than one that has been time aligned. But way off topic here, as are steep XO's. Wrt automation... Acourate can be operated completely manually, just like your software.

    Every room sounds audibly different to me, regardless of type of speaker in the room.

    I am interested to hear Michael's comparison of the 4367's to his new M2's!

  11. #281
    Senior Member pos's Avatar
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    Mitch,
    In my measurements the M2 acoustical crossover is an almost perfect 36dB/oct LR.
    It is time coherent throughout the whole range of the crossover and its phase shift can easily be linearized.

  12. #282
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    Quote Originally Posted by DallasJustice View Post
    I think the 900u is a gorgeous amp and sounds great with JBL speakers.
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    I got this Luxman L-550AX home on loan, and the transformer is noisy as hell. Did you notice any transformer noise from the m900u?

    Had my father over for a visit yesterday. He was mighty impressed over the speakers. The fact that he could feel the bass in the sofa without being able to see the cones move or feel air trough the ports was what impressed him the most . Then he commented on that the speakers sounded impressively natural and that it was hard to believe that there only was two speakers and not a center channel.

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  14. #284
    Junior Member DallasJustice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bredin View Post
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    I got this Luxman L-550AX home on loan, and the transformer is noisy as hell. Did you notice any transformer noise from the m900u?
    No. The 900u is a very quiet amp.
    http://www.soundstage.com/index.php?...nts&Itemid=154

    All of the Luxman amps I’ve heard in my room have been quiet. There may be something wrong with it. Maybe the trafo came loose and needs to be tightened.

  15. #285
    Senior Member hsosdrum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Mackenzie View Post
    There are a few points I would like to address:

    1. Do you think Harman has a "hang up" about JBL diy folks calling their projects M2 systems when there are going to be differences in the diy space that impact on factory system performance?

    You seem to feel strongly that "unless that and that" its not an M2.

    2. Can you please describe Harman's large IEC listening room?

    It seems your audio nirvana belongs in that room. That a pretty exclusive "space" in which to be making those sort of claims. l'd personally hold that to myself as you could be over selling the Harman spin.

    After all, anyone on the planet knows that "the" room has a huge impact on the subjective impressions of any loudspeaker. I am wondering how important an IEC room is to those wide dispersion wave guides? The vintage 4430-4435's certainly behave differently in the context of the family living room.

    Back to the JBL diy person versions you referenced what could the Mr average expect in his humble family room? Perhaps it will put the time consuming M2 clones in poor light? Maybe further DSP tweaking will be required.

    That leads me to the final point.

    3. Given all the hubba over the JBL made M2 "system rules", if the JBL diy person decides to be pragmatic or stamp his own ideas into the "Mix" it might well be be a less "precious" course and ultimately more rewarding journey.

    Food for thought. I am curious where the crusade will all end.
    First of all, let me be clear that any comments I make on this forum represent only my own opinions, and not those of Harman or any other person or entity. I cannot answer for what JBL/Harman may or may not think about DIY-ers who create their own speakers and then call them "M2".

    MY OWN PERSONAL OPINION IS THIS: If you build your own speaker that is meant to be a copy of a speaker that is manufactured by a speaker company, unless you copy every single aspect of that speaker's design you do not have the same speaker. As I previously mentioned, even the M2's baffle step has an effect on its audible performance. Eliminate it and your speakers don't perform the same as an M2 would under the exact same listening conditions. Whether or not this matters to you is another issue, but what is irrefutable is that your DIY speaker would not be exactly the same as a Harman-built M2.

    For all I care, a DIY-er can call their speaker anything they want. But words have meanings that communicate ideas. Calling a DIY speaker "M2" will communicate a specific idea about that speaker's design and performance to a person familiar with these speakers. Unless that DIY speaker successfully copies every single aspect of the real M2's design and execution, the meaning communicated by the name "M2" will be false to one degree or another. Instead of choosing a name that will communicate a false idea to others, it makes more sense to me to choose a name that clarifies, rather than obscures the provenance of the speaker in question. Or at the very least, a name that doesn't communicate any specific information about the speaker. (I believe the name "Kaiser Wilhelm" may still be available. )

    The paper about IEC listening rooms is available from the IEC (for a not-so-nominal fee). The pertinent info has to do with a listening room's dimensional ratios. When I worked at Kenwood, in the late-1990s we built a listening room to IEC dimensional specs for use in speaker evaluations (mostly for subwoofers — especially for car audio subwoofers, so we could get a relatively neutral performance benchmark away from the car interior's influence). I can tell you that while such rooms help reduce standing-waves by avoiding dimensional ratios that exacerbate them, they do NOT eliminate standing waves or the room's effect on sound quality. I heard the M2 in enough different rooms Harman to know that the qualities that make it special to me are inherent in the speaker; I heard those qualities (to different degrees) in every room where I auditioned those speakers. Of course, the better the room, the better the sound. That's true of all speakers, not just the M2, although certain aspects of the M2's design (the way the woofer and waveguide integrate at crossover and the waveguide's overall performance) enable it to perform with more consistency than typical speakers in a variety of different listening situations.

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