Page 1 of 5 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 64

Thread: 1400Nd Vs 1200Fe (2- way with 1.5 horn)

  1. #1
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Bessan, small village in South France
    Posts
    19

    1400Nd Vs 1200Fe (2- way with 1.5 horn)

    Hello everybody,
    In order to build a second system, I'd like your point of view please
    I already have, some 1400Pro and a 1400Nd reconne kit, 2450SL, H9800 Behringer clones and nice Woody's Arai 1.5
    My first idea was to build some enclosure with the same volume as the M9500: 115 liters (4.1 cu ft) 28 Hz tuning (lower LF), but if it's possible to get the same (or better) result in a smaller box: - it's better for my living room
    Then i think to the 1200Fe even if it's difficult to find... (but i have time )
    According to you, which of these two speaker is better until more or less 700Hz -750Hz?
    Thank you,

    Didier

  2. #2
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Geelong, Australia
    Posts
    141
    Quote Originally Posted by Didier View Post
    Hello everybody,
    In order to build a second system, I'd like your point of view please
    I already have, some 1400Pro and a 1400Nd reconne kit, 2450SL, H9800 Behringer clones and nice Woody's Arai 1.5
    My first idea was to build some enclosure with the same volume as the M9500: 115 liters (4.1 cu ft) 28 Hz tuning (lower LF), but if it's possible to get the same (or better) result in a smaller box: - it's better for my living room
    Then i think to the 1200Fe even if it's difficult to find... (but i have time )
    According to you, which of these two speaker is better until more or less 700Hz -750Hz?
    Thank you,

    Didier
    While i haven't heard the 1200fe i have 1400nd in some monitors i am building, 2 per side and to me these are the best bass driver i've ever heard regardless of price. Everyone that has listened to them loves what they do.


    joe.

  3. #3
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    7,942
    Can you model the bass response?

    Jbl typically did the tuning empirically meaning they would iteratively try different enclosure sizes and tuning until they were satisfied the voicing would suit the market

    Quite a while back the IET was discussed

    As l recall In an interview Bessel tuning was adopted

    Anacdotally the Japan Audio market like tight fast bass.

    But you may not have the preference.

    What l am saying is with diy do as you wish but if you can model your design in a simulator then you have a fairly reliable means of assessing the impact of a smaller box

    Typically making a bass reflex box a “bit” smaller will only kill the extension
    And the ear is sensitive to that. If you do make the box smaller by more than 10% you wil need to re tune the port.

    Have you thought about making the enclosure deeper to hide the internal volume?

  4. #4
    Senior Member RMC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    1,626
    Hi Didier,

    RE: 115 liters (4.1 cu ft) 28 Hz tuning (lower LF), but if it's possible to get the same (or better) result in a smaller box: - it's better for my living room


    I modeled in Winspeakerz and also in Win ISD Pro (2016) softwares the 1400 Pro in a 115 L. box with tuning at 28 Hz as you mentioned, and the results are NOT that good in the bass range... Tuning at 28 hz is way too low for this box/driver combo and puts more undue strain on the woofer.

    The "lower LF" you mention are at a much reduced level compared to the rest of response and yield higher woofer excursion than necessary. Response curves I get in both softwares show a pretty early dropping response and are as follows:

    Winspeakerz: almost 0 db at 500 hz, then response is down -1.5db @200hz, -4.5db@100hz, -8db@50hz, almost -9db@30hz.
    Win ISD Pro (with the usual Ql 7 box loss assumption): same as above at 500 and 200 hz, -4db@100hz, almost -8db@50hz and about -9db@30hz.

    This is far from flat bass response and results in weak bass compared to your woofer higher frequencies level... In other words that design is "stretching the sauce" in the bass range. That speaker should sound very mid-bassy up to your 700-750 hz limit. One would possibly need to use speaker corner placement in order to bring up the low end.

    Tuning the same box at 50 hz brings the lows higher (around 50+ hz) but on the same level as higher frequencies (except for a dip of 2.5 db around 90 hz in lower mid-bass) and F3 at 46-7 hz in both softwares. Personnaly, I would much prefer this type of curve than the other one above. An 85 L. (3 cu. ft.) box tuned around 55 hz would also bring the lows at same level as higher frequencies and yield a quite similar type of response but bring the lows higher at 60 hz, a 2 db dip around 100 hz and an F3 @ 51 hz in both softwares.

    This shows to me this driver isn't really capable of very low decent output (not subwoofer class) wheter by low tuning or larger cabinet size, but still OK for general purpose low frequency reproduction down to about 50 hz.

    The wish of a large driver, in small box with deep low-end is an endless story but not often compatible with the laws of physics unfortunately. Compromise is the name of the game here. At first sight, the T/S parameters of the 1400ND MAY appear to show more hope for your wish, however only modeling it in software will tell for sure if this is the case... I have not had time to model that possibility yet. Let me know if you need that, I'll see if I can find some time. Regards,

    Richard

  5. #5
    Dang. Amateur speakerdave's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Northern California
    Posts
    3,734
    The way I read the original post was that poster planned to put the 1400nd cone kits in the 1400 pro frames, which are the same.

    The only JBL speaker with one 1400nd is the S7500. That would be a fruitful study. I used 1400nd's in pairs in the M9500 configuration, and experimented with singles in the two different boxes. The S7500 was made for the Japanese market, where there is a) different taste in bass style, and b) small rooms, with corresponding differences in room gain, for hi fi. Long story short, the 1400nd was meant to be used in pairs in most cases.

    The 1200fe was used singly in the 4429. That would also be worth studying, I would think.
    "Audio is filled with dangerous amateurs." --- Tim de Paravicini

  6. #6
    Dang. Amateur speakerdave's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Northern California
    Posts
    3,734
    Quote Originally Posted by JoeNelis View Post
    While i haven't heard the 1200fe i have 1400nd in some monitors i am building, 2 per side and to me these are the best bass driver i've ever heard regardless of price. Everyone that has listened to them loves what they do.


    joe.
    Joe, I'm really glad you like them.
    "Audio is filled with dangerous amateurs." --- Tim de Paravicini

  7. #7
    Senior Member RMC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    1,626
    Hi Didier,

    I just did a modeling with a single 1400 ND in 115 L. box tuned to 28 hz in Win ISD Pro 2016 (with the usual QL 7 box loss assumption instead of the default QL 10 too optimistic number). The results are better than 1400 Pro, but still show a dropping LF response from 200 to 30 hz: about 0db@300-400hz, almost -2db@100hz, -3.5db@50hz, -5db@30hz and F3 at 60hz.

    Tuning the same box at 38hz would cure the downhill bass response and put the bass level around 45hz in line with that above 200hz (except for a drop of 1.5db around 75hz) and gives you an F3 at 36-37hz or so. Not bad.

    I'll be back tomorrow (no time now) with a simulation with a smaller box of 85 L. (3 cu. ft.) with 1400 ND.

    Richard

  8. #8
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Europa Union
    Posts
    130
    Quote Originally Posted by Didier View Post
    Hello everybody,
    In order to build a second system, I'd like your point of view please
    I already have, some 1400Pro and a 1400Nd reconne kit, 2450SL, H9800 Behringer clones and nice Woody's Arai 1.5
    My first idea was to build some enclosure with the same volume as the M9500: 115 liters (4.1 cu ft) 28 Hz tuning (lower LF), but if it's possible to get the same (or better) result in a smaller box: - it's better for my living room
    Then i think to the 1200Fe even if it's difficult to find... (but i have time )
    According to you, which of these two speaker is better until more or less 700Hz -750Hz?
    Thank you,

    Didier

    Nice to see you here !

    Will you use an active crossover or bi-amp? S9500 had a low shelf in this case, this could be taken into account in the design of the enclosure and bas reflex alignment such as in the M2.

    Didier

  9. #9
    Dang. Amateur speakerdave's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Northern California
    Posts
    3,734
    The M9500 configuration is definitely the way to go with the 1400nd: in pairs they play strong down into the upper twenties. There is much information about them in a couple of old threads. To achieve the desired "banana" bass roll off GT specified the lower box to be 20% larger than the optimum 3.5 cu ft for that woofer and the upper box 20% smaller. That would be 4.2 and 2.8. Tuning, port and duct info in one of the threads. With only one woofer the optimum box would probably be the best choice overall. You would lose the bottom half octave, but you would get the frequency you say you need, and overall performance would be best. You'd want to calculate the port/ducts based on your woofers.
    "Audio is filled with dangerous amateurs." --- Tim de Paravicini

  10. #10
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Geelong, Australia
    Posts
    141
    Quote Originally Posted by speakerdave View Post
    Joe, I'm really glad you like them.
    I sure do speakerdave, simply stunning drivers.


    Joe.

  11. #11
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Bessan, small village in South France
    Posts
    19
    Hi,
    Thank you for all the replies and to Richard for the simulations.
    As speakerdave said, I planned to put the 1400nd cone kits in the 1400 pro frames, which are the same (and I knew that the 1400 pro are not usable without sub even with a big enclosure )

    I thought a single 1400nd was a very good bass driver in 115L but it seems, according to Richard's simulations, that it is just "not bad" and I don't want to use 1400nd's in pairs like in the M9500 configuration... (too big and expensive for me, and no more 1400nd recone kit available in Europe )
    Maybe I was not very clear in my first message (probably) but I was wondering if it was possible to do something so good as 1400nd in 115L, with 1200fe in a smaller box... for example 60L?
    I'll try to do a simulation with winisd.
    I will use an active crossover Didier (Dn92) probably my yamaha SP2060...
    Bye!
    Didier

  12. #12
    Senior Member RMC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    1,626
    Hi Didier,

    As promised I modeled the 1400 ND in softwares with some smaller boxes, since this was your wish re living room space, and the results are still quite acceptable.

    "but if it's possible to get the same (or better) result in a smaller box: - it's better for my living room"

    As I mentioned before the laws of physics apply regardless of your wish, so "same or better result in a smaller box" isn't guaranteed. However, the three boxes I'm giving you (one yesterday in post # 7 and two here) are worth considering so you can choose the size/performance level that meets your needs .

    Winspeakerz: 99 L. (3.5 cu. ft. as mentioned by Speakerdave), tuned at 39 hz, pretty flat response except for a 1 db drop around 80 hz, F3 @ 37-38 hz.

    Win ISD Pro (2016) QL 7: 85 L. (3 cu. ft.), tuned at 40 hz, also pretty flat response except for a small .75 db drop around 85 hz, F3 @ 40 hz.

    Then you decide, considering the performance differences from one to the next aren't that big. Regards,

    Richard

  13. #13
    Member sebackman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Europe
    Posts
    675

    Don't give up

    Hi Didier,

    I built a pair of 2-way monitors recently with a sister woofer to your potential 1400Nd, the LE1400H. LE1400H uses the same cone as 1400nd but in a “bastard basket” which consists of LE1400H-3 basket and with a 2227 ferrite magnet.


    I used an M2 horn and a set of brand new 2451 drivers with brand new 475Nd diaphragms. These were fed by a BSS BLU50 XO with signal from a BLU-USB digitally and Crown CTS4200 amp with built in VCA.

    The LE1400H is a fantastic woofer and there is no reason why your 1400nd's should not be the same.

    My cabinets were smaller and maybe only 80 liters. I tuned them to about 30Hz and used the DSP to adjust the curve to compensate for the smaller cabinet. Please see attached near field measurement where you can see the woofer, the ports and the sum of them (the thick black line). Not bad. The ripple higher in frequency is due to near field measurement. I usually move to far field above 2-300Hz so you have to disregard the data above 200Hz

    I do have some 1400PRO's and can confirm that the do not go deep enough, not even with DSP and a lot of power. I will use SUB1500 subs beneath mine.


    More info on the 2-way system mentioned above can be found in the “Compact monitor” thread from 2015 here on LH.

    In an ordinary size room one 1400Nd per side should be plenty. In a very large room or when doing LFE movie sound a sub might be handy or a second pair per side.

    If you won’t use them, sell them to me!

    Kind regards
    //Rob

    Name:  LE1400H.png
Views: 938
Size:  39.6 KB
    The solution to the problem changes the problem.
    -And always remember that all of your equipment was made by the lowest bidder

  14. #14
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Bessan, small village in South France
    Posts
    19

    Why not!

    Hi, and thank you for the datas
    It seems according to you that this speaker is ok in 80~85L (even if the best way is to use two 1400nd like in the M9500)
    What do you mean Rob when you say "In an ordinary size room"?
    My (future) room will be: 12 X 4 and
    ceiling from 2.5 to 4m ... Distance betwen the speakers and from the listening position is 3m.
    Richard, do you have all the T/S of the 1400Nd? or a wdr? The curve I find with winisd is strange ....
    If I don't keep the recone kits, no problem Rob !

  15. #15
    Senior Member Dieter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    102
    Name:  1400Nd TS.jpg
Views: 847
Size:  50.8 KB
    Daphile; MUSETEC AUDIO (L.K.S. Audio) MH-DA005 - USB; Accuphase E-460; Everest DD66000

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 2 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 2 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. 1200fe-8
    By Techbot in forum Transducer Information
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 07-23-2008, 05:46 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •