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Thread: Quick & Dirty 4430-Inspired Two-Ways Part II

  1. #106
    RIP 2011 Zilch's Avatar
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    2435 HPL

    For the sake of discussion, here's my two factory rehabbed 2435's just taken on PT-F1010 waveguides (PT-H being similar in earlier measurements,) with expanded vertical scale, 2.5 dB per dotted line, on AM crossover, which provides about 4 dB less "boost" than is used with 2426 in 4430, IIRC.

    I'd have no qualms about tweaking the filter or EQ'ing 2.5 dB to make them more perfectly flat, though I'd consider the exercise "academic." They sound fine as is.

    Also, Steve, your eBay 2435's could go back to JBL for confirmation of performance to spec. Both of mine needed gap cleaning and ferrofluid recharge; I understand yours are from the same source.

    We also have the semantic issue of "boost." I'm not boosting anything here in the sense of adding HF drive as an active EQ would do. These filters reduce power selectively at the lower frequencies to flatten the response. It's semantic in that there's still a differential in the amount of power the driver receives at various frequencies, with HF getting the most, hence, "boost."

    Supposedly, these drivers move mass breakpoint further into the HF region than earlier designs, reducing the magnitude of that differential. Indeed, they seem to require less total compensation, as noted above.

    I suppose it boils down to an argument favoring beamy exponential horns. Having to equalize compression driver power response is inherent in using them above mass breakpoint. Doing it electrically versus acoustically is the question. Otherwise, use a tweeter, and buy all of THOSE compromises.

    'Course, there's those who contend that compression drivers, themselves, constant directivity, and 4430's all SUCK hugely, in which case there's not a lot on the table here for discussion.

    [We will persevere.... ]
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  2. #107
    Senior Member stevem's Avatar
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    I don't uinderstand why the 2435 has poor high frequency extension, at least compared to the 2450SL, which has a larger 4" Titanium diaphram. Isn't the 3" Beryllium diaphram lighter and stiffer? All of the TAD drivers use Beryllium domes (although I think they are made differently). How do they perform? And I don't think the issue is ferrofluid, unless they're using 30 weight oil, because there are a lot of ferrofluid tweeters on the market that don't have any problems with HF extension.

    I'm curious about the "two-stage phase plug" design that is used in the 2435. Does anyone here know anything about it? What does it look like, and how does it work? Can it cause a lack of HF? Are all the 24xx driver's phase plugs this same design?

  3. #108
    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stevem
    I'm curious about the "two-stage phase plug" design that is used in the 2435. Does anyone here know anything about it? What does it look like, and how does it work? Can it cause a lack of HF? Are all the 24xx driver's phase plugs this same design?
    Don't really know much about the 243X driver phase plugs, but I am fairly certain that they all use the same phase plug design. As far as a phase plug determining the UHF capability of the driver, it absolutely plays a significant role in the upper frequency capability of a given compression driver. The phase plug and the mass break point are the two key factors in determining a driver's HF capability. The mass break point is determined by the mass of the diaphragm relative to it's flux density, it's stiffness, and it's suspension's compliance.

    This plot show that 4 drivers with different diaphragms behave very similarly in terms of UHF extension. They all share the same phase plug... this is perhaps where a plane wave tube would come in handy, as the H9800 may also be the limiting factor so we can't definitively say what is causing the UHF loss.


    Widget
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  4. #109
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    I couldn't find the 2450SL data sheet, but here's the 2450:

    http://www.jblpro.com/pages/pub/components/2450.pdf

    Comparing the PWT responses, I'd say the 2435 crashes precipitously at about 17.5 kHz. It requires less than half the compensation of 2450 to play flat up to there, however. See also 2431H in blue at bottom. Ignore the glitches, and it doesn't crash, it just kinda gracefully dives from around 13 kHz.

    To play flat on 2380 horn, 2450 requires 20 dB of compensation. 2435 would require 24 dB, looks like, to make 20 kHz solidly, a dubious endeavor. I'm operating with around 14 dB of total compensation now using 2431, equivalent to what 4430 requires for "flat," 10 dB of that occurring in the last octave.

    Why does this matter? Distortion increases with rising power and frequency. The harder we have to push it up there, the worse it gets....
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  5. #110
    Senior Member stevem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zilch
    I couldn't find the 2450SL data sheet, but here's the 2450:

    http://www.jblpro.com/pages/pub/components/2450.pdf

    Comparing the PWT responses, I'd say the 2435 crashes precipitously at about 17.5 kHz. It requires less than half the compensation of 2450 to play flat up to there, however. See also 2431H in blue at bottom. Ignore the glitches, and it doesn't crash, it just kinda gracefully dives from around 13 kHz.

    To play flat on 2380 horn, 2450 requires 20 dB of compensation. 2435 would require 24 dB, looks like, to make 20 kHz solidly, a dubious endeavor. I'm operating with around 14 dB of total compensation now using 2431, equivalent to what 4430 requires for "flat," 10 dB of that occurring in the last octave.
    I believe that the 2451 is almost identical to the 2450SL, not the 2450 (which has a throat piece). Anyway, I use 10db of boost starting at 8.28khz and shelved upward at 12db per octave to achieve basically flat response to 20khz on the 2332 horn. Of course, there is the 1 or 2 db tweak here and there to get the response perfectly flat. Interestingly, I discovered that the DMS-1 is listed under JBL's "Tunings" in their tech section, and this is exactly the same boost they recommend. The DMS-1 uses this same driver and horn.



    On the other hand, with the 2435 I've tried the same 10 db boost at 8.28khz, with another 9db boost at 16khz (also shelved upwards at 12db octave), and the response is still not flat. This driver, as it is now, is really a midrange, and not a HF unit, although you are correct in that it does go higher and flatter than the 2450SL before any boost is applied. That's why I am surprised that I can't get it flat too.

  6. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by stevem
    I believe that the 2451 is almost identical to the 2450SL, not the 2450 (which has a throat piece).
    O.K., here's the 2451. I'll leave the 2450 info up for comparison.

    I'd say the same analysis applies.

    Looks like 2451 actually requires about 3 dB MORE HF boost than 2450, but it's apparent that the 2332 horn's DI is doing part of the job (the lion's share in the VHF region) from the compensation you are successfully using.

    Quote Originally Posted by stevem
    This driver, as it is now, is really a midrange, and not a HF unit, although you are correct in that it does go higher and flatter than the 2450SL before any boost is applied.
    Well, "...is really a midrange..." may be a little extreme. I'd call it a HF driver. Its sharp cutoff at 17 - 18 kHz disqualifies it for UHF, though, clearly.

    Let's have a look at how it's used in Vertec:

    http://www.jblpro.com/vertec1/new_vertec/pdf/VT4889.pdf

    Note sharp cutoff. YIKES, three 2435's per unit! (Not cheap, I betcha....)

    VT4888 uses dual 2431's. Note flat extension to 20 kHz at -15 dB:

    http://www.jblpro.com/vertec1/new_vertec/pdf/VT4888.pdf

    A similar HF "shelf" occurs in the SRX700's that use them, as well:

    http://www.jblpro.com/srx700/PDF/JBL.SRX715.pdf

    If 18 kHz isn't high enough for you, I'd try a pair of 2431H's before giving in to tweeters. 4430 was only spec'd to 16 kHz:

    http://www.jblpro.com/pub/obsolete/443035.pdf

    By way of perspective, you're already better than that with your 2435's on PT-H waveguides, using minimal compensation, and it's pistonic, for the most part, i.e., breakup mode only in the last 1/5 octave.

    "The 2435 has a performance envelop[e] that far surpasses all commercial[ly] available compression drivers."

    http://www.jblpro.com/vertec1/doug%2...%20rev%20c.pdf

    Would only it actually played like that....
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  7. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Mackenzie
    ...but are voices really 10 foot square? Nup.
    Heh. Actually, the DI of the spoken voice is 3 dB, and the Directivity Factor (Q) is 2.

    That's MUCH bigger than a 10-foot square, and cannot be faithfully reproduced by anything less than an array of 4344A's. Think "Hemisphere...."

  8. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by stevem
    On the other hand, with the 2435 I've tried the same 10 db boost at 8.28khz, with another 9db boost at 16khz (also shelved upwards at 12db octave), and the response is still not flat.
    Try SRX712 tuning for 2435 on 2332 horn. I have found the behavior of that driver/horn combo to be similar, above.

    It's a 12 dB boost at 15 kHz, Q=3.41 after 2.5 and 3 dB (Q=.94) cuts at 2.5 and 6 kHz, respectively.

    For PT-H waveguide, try am6212_00 tuning here: http://www.jblpro.com/ae/dsp_tunings.html

    Consider these "Generic" 243x tunings, and tweak as required.

  9. #114
    Senior Member stevem's Avatar
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    Thanks, Zilch, I will give these a try. I really need to fool around with it some more, as I haven't spent enough time on it yet.

    I am a bit puzzled by the plane wave tube responses of the 2435 and the 2450SL. According to that data, the 2435 should have plenty of top end.

  10. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by stevem
    I am a bit puzzled by the plane wave tube responses of the 2435 and the 2450SL. According to that data, the 2435 should have plenty of top end.
    The second 2435 one? It's 1/3 octave smoothed.

    If it actually played like that, it'd show in the Vertec specs.

    Lemme get some performance data here....

    Edit: O.K., here's 2435HPL drivers #5 and #6 on PT-F waveguides. Results on PT-H should be similar. I took down the data, but the two drivers were identical (within 1 dB,) so no averaging or normalization is required. This is 1/3 octave, of course, so there is inherent smoothing. Second column in from right is 18 kHz. 15 dB total compensation will get them to play flat.

    [Kinda looks like Fig. 29 PWT curve, above, I'd say. PT waveguide DI must be quite good....]

    To do this yourself: put a 47 uF capacitor in series with the driver for safety, bypass all EQ, and play your RTA, mic on axis at 0.5 M. We'd like to see how yours are performing in comparison.

    Below those, the same two drivers and waveguides on AM crossover. None of this is from archives; I just now did it. If you can't make similar happen, I'd again say those drivers need to go back to Northridge for rehab.

    Note: These AM filters are optimized for 2431H's. Even so, the 2435HPL's are playing within +/- 1.5 dB on them. A couple of tweaks could make these play virtually flat through 20 kHz here. Alternatively, a small amount of external EQ used with them would make it happen.

    How can this be? The original ('00) PWT and Vertec response curves say it's not there. The empirical results both here and in Mr. Widget's CLIO measurements above say these are nearly as good as 2431H's in HF extension. Answer: I DON'T know....

    See also: http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/s...t=6050&p=63324.
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  11. #116
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    Update: S2600 horns are supposed to come complete with throats. They didn't.

    None in U.S., apparently, they're coming in from France....

  12. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zilch
    Update: S2600 horns are supposed to come complete with throats. They didn't.
    - That's good news !

    Quote Originally Posted by Zilch
    None in U.S., apparently, they're coming in from France....
    - Interesting. French metal maybe ?

  13. #118
    Senior Member jackgiff's Avatar
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    Here's my DIY 4430's.

    First, my hat is off to Zilch for sharing his knowledge with us, and for doing all the research to tell us how build these guys. They sound absolutely great. I have pretty much always been a two way guy, but the 4312's and 4412's gave me reason to reconsider. No more. Two ways rule!!! I need to find Zilch's magic 4 inch port blockers. My hardware store doesn't carry anything that will fit the bill, so will probably end up making them from 3/4 inch MDF. Here are the pix.

    And by the way, sonofagun's foam grilles look pretty nice on them too, don't you think?
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  14. #119
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    Hey !

    Very Sharp Jack !

    So , do tell us , what components did you use ( out of Zilches many 2-way configurations ) ?



    ps ( yep / love the grills )

  15. #120
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    Izzat ROSEWOOD there?

    They've certainly got high WAF!

    Well, of course, I'm greatly pleased that you like them.

    Looks like you're set up for A/B testing against 4412's. That's TOUGH competition in the mids and highs, for sure.

    Your local plumber's supply house will likely have the port plugs. I think I saw them at Home Depot, also.

    The beauty of them is you can switch in and out as desired. Plug one port for extended bass, leave both open for tight bass....

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