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Thread: Quick & Dirty 4430-Inspired Two-Ways Part I

  1. #106
    RIP 2011 Zilch's Avatar
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    JBL crossover cards for biamping (courtesy robh3606) plug onto 5235 motherboard, though not without struggle. Even getting the bottom cover off is tough (at least for the anxious Zilchster, after dark ). Then, as shown, the cards are retained on captive standoffs, and the connectors are snug. Rugged, so there's little likelihood of damage, it's still a chore swapping them in. Don't plan on doing this routinely. Buy several units cheaply (~$100 on eBay) as needed. Indeed, as described above, these are the standard 18 dB cards loaded with components specific to 4430/35. Card designations "peek" through the front panel.

    While in there, dip switches (one of two visible here, red) set LP filter parameters, including options for various (but limited) slopes and frequencies. While "flat" is available, I chose a Q=2 6 dB "bump" at 20 Hz to mimic BX63(A)'s "assist" for B380. I know, I know, it's dangerous to boost low frequency below the box tuning point, which may induce over-excursion of the driver, but I promise to keep the gain modest until capacitors come in to shift this up to the recommended 26 Hz. Do NOT try this when biamping a stock 4430, which is tuned even higher!

    On to "critical listening," then....
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  2. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zilch
    I know, I know
    Ok then...

  3. #108
    RIP 2011 Zilch's Avatar
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    It's fun to take risks!

    Replacement 2235's are on the way, just in case...

    [How risky IS this, in reality?]

  4. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zilch
    [How risky IS this, in reality?]
    It isn't risky for people who monitor their systems and take care of them. For people with a propensity to get drunk/stoned/medicated and then operate heavy machinery it could be an issue.

  5. #110
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    System D:

    "Full Monty" JBL system, then, assembled with the assistance of forum members, comprises:

    1) TimG's 2427H drivers on Mike Caldwell's 2344A horns,
    2) Thrashed B380's I had in the dungeon, acquired cheaply, 2235H's refoamed,
    3) N3134 factory 4430 passive crossovers bought on whim 10 years ago "just in case," when they were about 1/3 the current $565 cost (hopin' Giskard's gonna show us how to make 'em DIY, maybe),
    4) JBL 6260 amp driving the B380's, bought off eBay (now ~$150),
    5) JBL 6230 amp driving the horns, bought on local pro dealer "clearance," also 10 years ago (now ~$125 on eBay),
    6) JBL 5235 active crossover recently bought off eBay, same vintage as amps (~$100),
    7) 4430 crossover cards on loan from RobH,
    8) $79 Sony CDP-XE400 CD player with "High Density Linear Converter,"
    9) DOD Real-Time Analyzer on loan from Mr. Widget,
    10) HOSA XLR cables from Guitar Center pro audio department (~$60),
    11) Cheap Radio Shack hookup wire, available even cheaper at Home Depot(~$7), and,
    12) Various and sundry Pink Floyd (priceless).

    Quick AND dirty, with considerable assistance from this forum, the test platform is complete.

    Bring on them HORNS, JBL!

    [Gonna go listen now....]
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  6. #111
    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    Looks like a bit of EQ could be used to reduce the peaks ~50-63Hz and ~1-1.2KHz and bring up the highs and lows.

    Widget
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  7. #112
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    Hi, Mr. Widget!

    I was hopin' you'd come on to interpret the RTA. Not bad for "outta the box," I think.

    The low end was probably fixed by movin' the bump filter down to 20 Hz in a moment of wanton bravado earlier today. It was set on 30 Hz for safety last night, and it pushed up the 63 Hz region. I'll measure it again tonight. Gotta be after dark to get that pic.

    I reversed the phase on the horns to get that peak at 1K crossover point, where it was dipping a bit. Maybe I just move them back and forth a little instead.

    The RTA is REAL sensitive: approach the mic and the curve changes. The two peaks shown there are really just blinkin' on and off, whereas the rest of it is all steady on.

    That flat setting is kinda "harsh" for my taste, but it may just be the hardness of the room (garage) makin' me want to back off the midrange somewhat here.

    For those unfamiliar, each row of LED's there is 3 dB. I'm a noob with RTA, and just learning how to interpret it myself....

    What's shown is it's dialable basically flat (within 3 dB) from 40 to 12.5 kHz in this decidedly less than ideal environment without any EQ other than the crossovers themselves. Note there's no preamp or EQ (which I don't have, anyway,) in the system. It's all just direct connected.

  8. #113
    Administrator Robh3606's Avatar
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    Try moving the horn up a bit. The real deal has the horn out an inch in front of the baffle.

    Rob

  9. #114
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    Also, don't forget to take Fletcher-Munson equal loudness curves into account. I find I always have to compensate for those unless the volume is near to "live band" levels. At low volumes, "flat" can sound real dead...


    John

  10. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robh3606
    Try moving the horn up a bit. The real deal has the horn out an inch in front of the baffle.
    Yup, I was lookin' for a pair of 2507 horn brackets so I could hang them over the front edge, but none's come out of the woodwork here yet. May have to make something up myself to accomplish that enhancement.

    Quote Originally Posted by johnaec
    Also, don't forget to take Fletcher-Munson equal loudness curves into account.
    Yup. Letting the mids lag sounds better. Gotta get a cheap Radio Shack SPL meter tomorrow to find out where I'm actually running absolute, probably. No volume or loudness control on this setup; I have to adjust 4 gain controls to vary it, so we're basically one level here. It'd be good to know what that actually is....

  11. #116
    Senior Member caladois's Avatar
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    6) JBL 5235 active crossover recently bought off eBay, same vintage as amps (~$100),
    7) 4430 crossover cards on loan from RobH,
    Bring on them HORNS, JBL!


    I am looking too for 4435/4430 crossovers cards ? are they still available ?
    What price ?

    Regards SD]
    Regards Stephane

  12. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by caladois
    I am looking too for 4435/4430 crossovers cards ? are they still available ?
    When last I checked with JBL parts (about a year ago), they were NLA (No Longer Available).

    "No, none, and NEVER again. Forget it."

    [That doesn't mean they don't have them though.... ]

    HOWEVER, as documented above, they are easy to replicate. The components required for the various filters and frequencies are specified in the 5235 manual.

    The cards came in two forms, 12 dB and 18 dB, with different circuit layouts. If your crossover came with 18 dB cards (6 capacitors and 6 resistors) of ANY frequency, they can be reloaded with the requisite components for the 4430/35 configuration.

    Alternatively, you can easily make (or have made) them yourself, using the stock cards as models. They almost never show up on US eBay, so plan on using your own resources to make it happen.

  13. #118
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    5235 26 Hz Bump Filter for BX63 Emulation:

    1) For low frequency equalization, S3 is opened.
    2) Closing S2 provides 30 Hz Q=2 Bump.
    3) Additionally closing S1 doubles C10 making it 20 Hz.
    4) For 26 Hz, add 40% of C9 instead, i.e. 0.4 x 0.27 uf = 0.108 uf.
    5) Leaving S1 open and adding 0.108 uf across C10 will make 26 Hz.

    Check?

    26 Hz is what we want to emulate BX63 for B380, yes?
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  14. #119
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    Sounds right. Did you find my post how to do this?

    No wait. That sounds wrong ( doesn't mean it is though ).
    Let me search the forum.

    Here -

    http://audioheritage.csdco.com/vbull...ght=5234A+B380

    I don't have time to read through it right now. I'll run your proposal later in pspice.

  15. #120
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    Had to look again at the schematic pdf. The caps are 0.27, not .027. I fixed that above.

    Hmmmm. Replacing ALL of the caps seems excessive. Just kludging one on in parallel is more easily reversible, if it'll work.

    0.11 or 0.12 uf proposed....

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