JBL Performance Series

[Mr. Widget]

Since the move out of Northridge, most everything is manufactured somewhere else besides JBL. It's still designed by JBL, but not manufactured. JBL is out of the driver (component) business.

Look here: http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...l=1#post325736

JBL still builds drivers... just not in California. They have been building some pro drivers in Mexico for years, and today most of the better Synthesis drivers and Pro drivers are built there in the plant that effectively replaced the manufacturing lines in Northridge.

Now about substituting a Sub1500 or a 1500 Array for the PS1400? No, wrong, don't even think about it... the JBL Sub1500 woofer and it's cousin the W1500H are fabulous subs, but they are not woofers... the PS1400 when used with the PT800 is really more of a woofer than a sub.


Widget

[Mike Ronesia]

Now about substituting a Sub1500 or a 1500 Array for the PS1400? No, wrong, don't even think about it... the JBL Sub1500 woofer and it's cousin the W1500H are fabulous subs, but they are not woofers... the PS1400 when used with the PT800 is really more of a woofer than a sub.


Widget

This is what I love about the PS/PT combo. They are great for music IMO.

[rpatt]

I used only HTPS400s crossed over at 80-hz for about a year with my PT800s. I was really amazed at the improvement of adding two PS1400s in 4-way stacked configuration. It really filled a hole in the mid bass area.

[pathfindermwd]

I wanted to capture the essence of another thread whose content might get lost over time if it's not incorporated here. The basic issue is the relative compatibility of the PT800 to LF or LFE units other than the PS1400. The simple answer is that any sub that can crossover at 80Hz will work with the PT800, but none will have the same synergy as the PT800/PS1400 being designed for each other.

Member mikebake has a pair of member 4313B's custom-built Sub1500 subs set up with specific attention to time alignment spacing, cabinet volume, and other transitional/crossover considerations that according to Mike are pretty darn compelling. I've no doubt that one could take the basic design philosophy of the PS1400 and improve on it with a custom design. I contributed some minor cabinet dimensions and spacing to help in the build process. Even the designer says a little more enclosure volume could be a good thing for the stock LE14H-3 driver.

The question then becomes, "Can one improve upon it with stock, consumer designs," i.e., a 1500 Array in place of a PS1400? I think the answer is "maybe," and also that it's possible to mess up a good thing rather than improve it.

When I get a little more time and as the discussion continues, I'll add some comments about the plusses and minuses of such an endeavor.

JBL still builds drivers... just not in California. They have been building some pro drivers in Mexico for years, and today most of the better Synthesis drivers and Pro drivers are built there in the plant that effectively replaced the manufacturing lines in Northridge.

Now about substituting a Sub1500 or a 1500 Array for the PS1400? No, wrong, don't even think about it... the JBL Sub1500 woofer and it's cousin the W1500H are fabulous subs, but they are not woofers... the PS1400 when used with the PT800 is really more of a woofer than a sub.


Widget

Hmmm Kinda weird someone replying to your thread in another thread.

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...System-Dilemma

[Titanium Dome]

Hmmm Kinda weird someone replying to your thread in another thread.

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...System-Dilemma

Well now, don't take it personally, though I can understand why you think it's kinda weird.

Down the road in six months or a year when someone has a question about the Performance Series that's similar to yours, this may be the first place they look, so we're just trying to aggregate as much as possible here. Also, if asked, we can all recall this thread but might have a harder time trying to recall several disparate threads on the same or similar topics. Then we'd need to resort to the search feature, which sometimes works well and sometimes does not, sending us to scores of threads that might have one reference to the PT800.

Lots of info about the Performance Series, its components, drivers, and characteristics can be found in many other threads, but as these other threads wane and eventually go further down the reading list we try to get most of the info in here so there's a more or less central location and starting point.

[4313B]

Now about substituting a Sub1500 or a 1500 Array for the PS1400? No, wrong, don't even think about it... the JBL Sub1500 woofer and it's cousin the W1500H are fabulous subs, but they are not woofers... the PS1400 when used with the PT800 is really more of a woofer than a sub.

I used a pair of 2242H subs crossed over at 80 Hz. Mike is using a pair of the SUB1500's. I think he's crossing over at the usual 80 Hz though instead of the 'special' PT800/PS1400 stack setting of something like 130 Hz. The 2242H wouldn't work correctly up to 130 Hz due to its rising response.

The B380, B460, Citation 5.4 or 7.4 should work fine since they are nice and flat just like the PS1400. The PS1400 would have looked out of sorts if it had been built with the 'proper' volume for true subwoofer duty. I suppose Jerry could have played around with the parameters a bit to cut down on the Vb requirement but what we have is what we have. The PS1400 is only lacking roughly 5 Hz extension compared to all the above mentioned subwoofers.

With the outstanding bang for the buck you are currently offering on the PS1400 though it's pretty much a slam dunk decision. From my perspective the price/performance ratio of the 1500 Array compared to the PS1400 just isn't there. I'm tempted to get a pair of the PS1400's to put with my Tannoy HT.

[Titanium Dome]

Now about substituting a Sub1500 or a 1500 Array for the PS1400? No, wrong, don't even think about it... the JBL Sub1500 woofer and it's cousin the W1500H are fabulous subs, but they are not woofers... the PS1400 when used with the PT800 is really more of a woofer than a sub.


Widget

The B380, B460, Citation 5.4 or 7.4 should work fine since they are nice and flat just like the PS1400.

The PS1400 is only lacking roughly 5 Hz extension compared to all the above mentioned subwoofers.

With the outstanding bang for the buck you are currently offering on the PS1400 though it's pretty much a slam dunk decision. From my perspective the price/performance ratio of the 1500 ARRAY compared to the PS1400 just isn't there. I'm tempted to get a pair of the PS1400's to put with my Tannoy HT.

Getting a pair of 1500 ARRAYs at an astounding price like pathfindermwd did is a real treat. I sure thought about it, but many things took me off the path, so to speak. The biggest single factor was concern about compatibility.

Now, those subs will work with any decent speaker, so I'm not referring to the PT800 and 1500 being unable to be used together. Of course they can be. My question was whether or not they'd be as good a fit as the PT800/PS1400/HTPS400 or would the PT800/1500 ARRAY combo actually be better? The 1500 would reduce the body count by one per channel, since it would replace both the PS1400 and the HTPS400. That seemed quite attractive. The 1500 also goes to 400 Hz and can crossover as high as 140 Hz, so it could conceivably take on both roles.

However, when I examined the crossover slopes used by the PS1400 that are specific to the PT800 in a docked situation and started thinking about how the 1500's or my pre/pro's more generic slopes may alter that intended transition, I began to lose confidence that it would be an imporvement. No doubt the bottom end would be better, and I am a bass whore, but I really like the clean transition the stock solution offers at 130 Hz, which can be very audible if done poorly. With the HTPS400s handling the stuff below 40 Hz, the transition at that point is still important but far less critical in my listening experience.

Naturally, if one were to use the PS1400 as an unattached sub crossed over at 80 Hz, then the 1500 would work just as effectively and produce a better bottom end all the way 'round. That could rock many a listener's world, including my own.

Nonetheless, I've got four complete PT800/PS1400 stacks and four HTPS400 subs which are already in place and paid for, so thinking about getting two 1500 ARRAYs seems silly. Plus, as 4313B wrote, the price/performance ratio was out of whack since I could've gotten four PS1400s for the price of the two Arrays, and four of those placed properly in the room would be hard to beat from the standpoint of leveling out the bass and providing a ton of LF reinforcement.

Still, two 1500s... Who wouldn't want that? If I didn't already have all the Performance gear, I probably would have jumped, because I'll bet the bottom end is insane in pathfindermwd's room, and I am when all is said and done still a bass whore.

[pathfindermwd]

Funny, the decision to buy both the Performance Series Stacks and the Array 1500's both came from this thread. Buried somewhere in here is Mr. Widget's impression and general recommendation of the Array 1500's during the segment where the Sub 1500's were making their appearance as the DIY low frequency choice of some. The volume of the PS1400 was discussed and it seemed generally agreed that it needed a bit more to do the LE14H-3 justice. The Sub 1500 was optimized for small enclosures and given the two-piece stack design seemed a good choice.

In searching for a piece for multi-purpose sub duty I considered the sub 1500 but saw the 2245 as probably the ultimate low frequency air mover. I never thought I would ever buy an Array 1500 as they are quite expensive, and as 4313B points out, probably not a great value for the money (retail). But as I continued to fail getting a sub project together I started to see that even if I could build a sub I would still have to power it, and finish it.. nicely. DIY slowly became alot less attractive. I just so happened to be lusting for awhile over a Synthesis One (2245/non-powered box) in a "synthesis" search on ebay when the 4 Arrays 1500's appeared. I made an offer for two of them hoping that a larger sale would help them bring the price down for each. It was really kind of a fluke, I never expected them to accept the offer, and when the word came back I was a little terrified, and wasn't sure if I had made a big mistake, or had the chance of a lifetime. Well, at least the long search for a sub had finally come to an end!

The array 1500's were not intended to replace the PS1400 purchase, but I became worried that the sale was not going to happen after the PS1400's had not shipped for 3 weeks. I noted that the Array 1500's have a nice rubberized sloped top which I thought was an optimal transition to the PT800's baffle as there had been some discussion about reflection off the top of the flat PS1400. To me the Array 1500 enclosure looks like it was better designed for the job.

When the PT800 was discussed as a full range driver some mis-understood that it needed to be protected from low frequency signals, to which 4313B clarified that it wouldn't play below that, not that they would hurt them. I also dumped full signal into them, even with the bass turned up somewhat accidentally, and it didn't bother them, even at higher levels. If the PT800's were used in a full signal way I suspect that they would mate alot better with the Array 1500. If it were to be done, that might be the way to do it; full range.

We all know that good bass is hard to find. It is not easy to out-perform a 2214 or LE14H in a way that greatly improves the sound. I have now accumulated several pairs of speakers and have two systems running. Depending upon the room I can see usefulness for two of these subs separately or together. Also, I see them as a representative example of JBL's best that one can be proud to own.

Will the Array 1500's be worth the price of admission? I haven't really run a sub with any of my systems, so there won't be much I can compare it to. What I will be looking for is simply more of what I already have, more good deep bass. Mouth dropping deep bass!

On a final note I would like to acknowledge how important threads like this are for someone like myself who doesn't get many opportunities to audition this equipment. The discussions of well respected forum members are very helpful in identifying quality gear, not readily available here. But having read through this thread a couple of times I wish that it had chapter headings and an index so that the important contributions can more easily be located. It's a fun read once, but there are large gaps where relevant info become scarce. Heck, there is even a big brawl at the beginning of it. What is needed is an on-topic button that can sort out some of the more conversational posts that have bloated it's page numbers. Of course, who knew it would grow to be so large.

[Titanium Dome]

Mouth dropping deep bass!

I've had a few club girls refer to "pants dropping bass" but that would be way off topic, plus it was way out of my league.

What is needed is an on-topic button that can sort out some of the more conversational posts that have bloated it's page numbers. Of course, who knew it would grow to be so large.

From your keyboard to God's (or a Mod's) ear...

A couple of times forum members have tried to distill certain threads like this into more of a compendium format, but it always gets bogged down as a nearly impossible task given the lack of tools and administrative access to do it.

[pathfindermwd]

I've had a few club girls refer to "pants dropping bass" but that would be way off topic, plus it was way out of my league.

Well now for that kind of off- topic stuff, there should be a "really good off topic" button.

[mikebake]

I still like what I recall of the PS1400 with 800's, but the sub1500 is just more beasty, and still musical. I am crossing at 80. I'm currently using the subs "docked" under the REAR speakers; just the way it is currently working out. Seems to be working well.

[howaboutthat41]

I just acquired a matched pair of PT800's and PS1400's mounted as a two-channel system, along with a separate, for now, PC600 hooked up to a surround system with a pair of Revel M22's (same tweeter!) and cheap JBL satellites. The Performance Series components ultimately will collect into a surround system of its own. The stacked towers sound amazing, powered by a JBL AVA7 and Marantz AV7005 combination. Given the placement (and mounting) flexibility of these incredibly musical speakers, this should have been a blockbuster product line for JBL and Harman. One wonders if they did not get caught up in the internecine noise and machinations at Harman, ending up sacrificed at the altar of the Revel Ultima 2 (Gem) series (with the audiophile grade market divided more neatly between Revel, on the dome front, and JBL Synthesis in the horn-loaded realm). Even at MSRP these are mind-boggling speakers. Phenomenal stuff.

[rdgrimes]

Welcome to the cult, enjoy the Koolaid.

The PS line is and always has been JBL's best kept secret.

[Mr. Widget]

I just acquired a matched pair of PT800's and PS1400's mounted as a two-channel system, along with a separate, for now, PC600 hooked up to a surround system with a pair of Revel M22's (same tweeter!) and cheap JBL satellites. The Performance Series components ultimately will collect into a surround system of its own. The stacked towers sound amazing, powered by a JBL AVA7 and Marantz AV7005 combination. Given the placement (and mounting) flexibility of these incredibly musical speakers, this should have been a blockbuster product line for JBL and Harman. One wonders if they did not get caught up in the internecine noise and machinations at Harman, ending up sacrificed at the altar of the Revel Ultima 2 (Gem) series (with the audiophile grade market divided more neatly between Revel, on the dome front, and JBL Synthesis in the horn-loaded realm). Even at MSRP these are mind-boggling speakers. Phenomenal stuff.

Congratulations on acquiring a Performance Series system. I also commend you on your choice of electronics... excellent bang for the buck in the surround realm.

I wouldn't say that Harman sacrificed the JBLs for the Revels, but rather the fine folks in charge of JBL were rather rudderless during this time period- late 1990's-early 2000s. Revel on the other hand had a definite focus.

A correction: The Revel M22 and the Performance Series most certainly do not use the same tweeter. I've replaced both for customers. If you pull them out of their enclosures you'll be surprised at the difference. The M22 uses a motor that is several times more massive and looks better built.


Widget

[howaboutthat41]

Congratulations on acquiring a Performance Series system. I also commend you on your choice of electronics... excellent bang for the buck in the surround realm.

I wouldn't say that Harman sacrificed the JBLs for the Revels, but rather the fine folks in charge of JBL were rather rudderless during this time period- late 1990's-early 2000s. Revel on the other hand had a definite focus.

A correction: The Revel M22 and the Performance Series most certainly do not use the same tweeter. I've replaced both for customers. If you pull them out of their enclosures you'll be surprised at the difference. The M22 uses a motor that is several times more massive and looks better built.


Widget

Thanks -- took a bit of a liberty on the tweeter statement -- know they are both Audax titanium 25 mm units. They do sound close to my ears, as least.