ALtec Model 19-XO upgrade discussion

[DaveV]

Zilch,

I'm not at all unhappy with the added EV tweeters. I consider them to be one of the best tweeters ever made and after hearing the T350's I could never be happy with T35's again. There's a reason why they go for $800 and upward for a pair on E-Bay. The Altec 3000's I have are great sounding too but the efficiency is too low in this case. I'm not caught up in any guilt about tampering with Altec's design philosophy to do a 2 way that does it all. It clearly does do it all in more than one system for lots of people, but not me. And I feel that having a tweeter sitting on top of the cabinets and connected directly to the amp in no way violates the 19's integrity or value. Just the sound and if it sounds better to me then that's better than dismissing the speakers/drivers because they have limited or weak highs. As I stated before, I've never heard a speaker that does what these do so that says a lot about Altecs design choice for the 19's. I just don't agree with their view on the upper treble. Bozak had the same thoughts with soft treble tweeters and people think they are great too but I never cared for them. The overall smoothness even with the added tweeter, the ability to maintain impact/detail with smoothness, the extended and smooth bass, and the clarity is something most speakers just don't offer and I've heard lots of speakers. Perfect they aren't but no speaker is perfect. They're just closer to perfect than I've ever had before. But even if it were possible to get more extended highs from the 802-8G/811B, would they sound the same and disperse the same as from the smaller horn of the EV T350? I remember EV had a way to extend the highs of their 1823M driver with the addition of a small passive network. My goal has always been to have great sounding vintage tube stereo system with vintage or near vintage speakers using little to no EQ and not a transistor to be seen. TA DAH!

Earl,
I get the whole bi-amp thing but I'm not willing to go that route anymore. My old Bozak 4000's were lots better with a simple bi-amp setup but I've never been able to get those same results with other speakers I've owned because of blend, shelving or overlap problems. I'm just not into 18 or 24db/octave xovers, SS xover networks or expensive tube xover networks. I think I would be spinning my wheels and spending lots of time and money to get back to where I am now with the overall smoothness although I may have a tighter bass. But maybe not if I'm not using an SS amp. Now that I won't be using 4db of bass boost my amp now has more reserve power and I can't crank the 19's up that much in the small room they are in. My ears will bleed or the windows will shatter, whichever comes first.

[Mr. Widget]

But even if it were possible to get more extended highs from the 802-8G/811B, would they sound the same and disperse the same as from the smaller horn of the EV T350?

I've been trying to convince Zilch of this for a few years now.

The lighter smaller diaphragm in a proper tweeter not only measures better without the coaxing of network gymnastics, but more importantly they sound better. A good tweeter will reproduce higher frequencies with less glare and hash... a larger compression driver can crank out the highs and that is fine for PA work, but of all the compression drivers I have heard or measured, none of them can compete with a quality tweeter... not even the beryllium models, though they get much closer.

FWIW: I agree with you about the EV T350. It is a fine tweeter. It may use the same diaphragm and thinking as the T35, but it is light years better in sound and measured performance.


Widget

[Zilch]

I've been trying to convince Zilch of this for a few years now.

Heh.

By the time I'm done, Mr. Widget will have disconnected ALL of his tweeters.

[We KNOW he wants to.... ]

[Paul C.]

Is this the subject schematic?

Yes, that was the schematic I used for Gary L's xover.

[Gary L]

Heh.

By the time I'm done, Mr. Widget will have disconnected ALL of his tweeters.

[We KNOW he wants to.... ]

LOL, He might just be one of those closet horners

The tell-tail sign is caster wheel lines in his carpet.

[DaveV]

Well Mr. Widget, Zilch and others, I spent the last hour playing bands (tracks) on LP's for a neighbor that has Valencia/Flamencos and maintained that no added tweeter was needed. He was dully impressed and when the stylus fell on Nat King Cole he said, "Oh my God, I'm jealous." He heard the Ahmad Jamal Trio in mono, Stan Getz in mono and stereo , Julie London in mono and stereo, Nat King Cole in stereo, Kirite Kanawa in stereo, parts of Command Provocative Percussion Vol lll in stereo, Gary Carr playing an Amati Bass and conluded as I did that the Model 19's with the T350's are truely amazing. The clarity, detail, air, Altec attacks yet smooth as silk and the bass is there, deep and very well defined. I'm so embarrassed that something as simple as bass and treble boost took me on a needless and confusing path. It's amazing what treble boost can do to bass perception. The 19's sound so amazing that I'm tempted to leave them alone but I know I'll be in there trying the new inductors again. At least this time I have a referrence and now that I know I don't need the bass boost the increased woofer output probably won't be a problem. I never expected the 19's to deliver this kind of bass without some boost and having used the T350's on the Flamencos I was still having to use one detent click or 4 db of bass and treble boost to make that combo sound good to me. There was one thing after another in experimenting with the new to me 19's and apparently today everything was right including the crossover and padding for the T350's to overlap the 802's in their higher operating range with the HF control at 12 o'clock. Then when I got the idea to go flat with the tone controls "the sound" just fell right into place. This combo is by far the best speaker system I've ever had, and I've had many. They are also one of the best I've ever heard regardless of size or price. If new inductors and non inductive resistors open certain things up just a tiny wee bit then they will be beyond amazing. I'm so happy I made that impluse bid on E-Bay and won for $1000 now that I see the last 3 pair of Model 19's have gone for $1600. My cabinets and grilles are fine and even with the moving expenses and having the 802's done at Great Plains I'm not at that price yet. What a bargain compared to many "high end" speakers that I probably shouldn't name. So to make a long story short now that I've made it long, if your 19's don't sound great, then you don't like tamer/smoother horns or there's something really wrong with them or in your associated equipment. I do however still feel that like the Valencias/Flamencos they do need tweeters to really shine and show what they can do. The expansion of breath or air is far less than subtle and the resulting highs, IMHO are far better than the full higher end of the 802-8G/811B with the HF control set at "optimal." I also think that not all cap choices will result in the same sonic outcome if your just replacing the caps. Others have mentioned names of caps so I'll say that I used F-Dyne (Southern Electronics) MPP1's that are metallized polyprops. They worked out great in my Flamencos and with the EV Tweeters so I thought I'd go with a known after I tried another brand that I didn't like the sound of with horns.

Dave

[Dylanl]

Dave could you tell me what brands and parts you replaced in your xovers. In particular I am interested in the bass inprovement. DO you have any pictures?

[DaveV]

If you've been following my adventures or maybe misadventures, then maybe you missed a part or misunderstood? I tried replacing the large woofer inductors (2.7 mh) with low resistance steel cores I had one hand that were of a larger value. Using an LCR meter I unraveled turns until I got the 2.7mh. The bass improved for sure but I had another problem with too much upper bass that clouded voice and some instruments so I went back the original Altec inductors and it was better. During this time is when everything fell into place so all of the original inductors,resistors and pots were and are still in the xovers. The caps, speaker connectors and internal wiring are the only new parts other than the replacement foam surrounds around the 811's that I think help in the higher frequencies from the 802/811. If your asking what inductor I tried, it was I believe a Madisound SH steel core very much like the Erst steel or iron core inductors from Parts express. I still plan on trying all new inductors and non inductive resistors in the xovers to see what they do but it would be hard for me to believe that much more improvement could be had. I happened to have some $$$ Cardas speaker terminals on hand that I think are Rhodium plated so I used those to replace the funky spring loaded jobs on the bottom of the cabinets. The internal wire and speaker wire/cable I use was used for a time by Cello Ltd the former high end audio company. It's an all bare copper rope lay design. I think it's a total of 336 strands of wire wound in different twisted bundles then twisted together and jacketed as one conductor and it came in red and black. I always found that wire gave me the best mids and a slightly better bass. I was about to add something to my last post but then I saw yours. I forgot to mention that my 811B's are NOT damped in any way and the vanes are still welded. After hearing what I heard this evening I can't say that I have the urge to even bother. If I do I might try cutting the welds and filling the gaps with black goop but I still don't know why so many people complain about a ringing horn. I'm pretty critical and I don't hear anything I'd blame on the horn itself. BUT, as with my Flamencos, I have the added tweeters and the HF driver isn't running like a system without an added tweeter if that makes any difference or not because I thought the ringing was supposed to be between 1 and 3KHZ. Or maybe it's there but I'm just not sensitive to it?

[Tom Brennan]

"If you've been following my adventures or maybe misadventures, then maybe you missed a part or misunderstood? "


Dave----I'm not cracking wise and mean this with all due respect but given that you don't use paragraphs it's difficult to read your posts and easy to misunderstand them. Especially for an old-timer like me with bad eyesight. ;-)

Regards

[Gary L]

"If you've been following my adventures or maybe misadventures, then maybe you missed a part or misunderstood? "


Dave----I'm not cracking wise and mean this with all due respect but given that you don't use paragraphs it's difficult to read your posts and easy to misunderstand them. Especially for an old-timer like me with bad eyesight. ;-)

Regards

Dittos there Tom. Lengthy is fine when it is easy to read and I am not one to point out such but I do find it hard to follow and read.

Gary

[JBLRaiser]

"If you've been following my adventures or maybe misadventures, then maybe you missed a part or misunderstood? "


Dave----I'm not cracking wise and mean this with all due respect but given that you don't use paragraphs it's difficult to read your posts and easy to misunderstand them. Especially for an old-timer like me with bad eyesight. ;-)

Regards

If you've been following my adventures or maybe misadventures, then maybe you missed a part or misunderstood? I tried replacing the large woofer inductors (2.7 mh) with low resistance steel cores I had one hand that were of a larger value. Using an LCR meter I unraveled turns until I got the 2.7mh. The bass improved for sure but I had another problem with too much upper bass that clouded voice and some instruments so I went back the original Altec inductors and it was better. During this time is when everything fell into place so all of the original inductors,resistors and pots were and are still in the xovers.
The caps, speaker connectors and internal wiring are the only new parts other than the replacement foam surrounds around the 811's that I think help in the higher frequencies from the 802/811.
If your asking what inductor I tried, it was I believe a Madisound SH steel core very much like the Erst steel or iron core inductors from Parts express. I still plan on trying all new inductors and non inductive resistors in the xovers to see what they do but it would be hard for me to believe that much more improvement could be had.
I happened to have some $$$ Cardas speaker terminals on hand that I think are Rhodium plated so I used those to replace the funky spring loaded jobs on the bottom of the cabinets. The internal wire and speaker wire/cable I use was used for a time by Cello Ltd the former high end audio company. It's an all bare copper rope lay design. I think it's a total of 336 strands of wire wound in different twisted bundles then twisted together and jacketed as one conductor and it came in red and black. I always found that wire gave me the best mids and a slightly better bass.
I was about to add something to my last post but then I saw yours. I forgot to mention that my 811B's are NOT damped in any way and the vanes are still welded. After hearing what I heard this evening I can't say that I have the urge to even bother. If I do I might try cutting the welds and filling the gaps with black goop but I still don't know why so many people complain about a ringing horn. I'm pretty critical and I don't hear anything I'd blame on the horn itself. BUT, as with my Flamencos, I have the added tweeters and the HF driver isn't running like a system without an added tweeter if that makes any difference or not because I thought the ringing was supposed to be between 1 and 3KHZ. Or maybe it's there but I'm just not sensitive to it?

[DaveV]

No problem Tom. I know I'm "wordy." Guess I try to make myself clear and then it backfires. LOL
You have the knack for short and to the point posts and be sure that I read them all because I always enjoy reading your opinions.
I was thinking that even though what I have now with the 19's and added tweeters is something else, I have never heard the different VOT configurations (except the Flamencos) and all the various JBL configurations.
There must be enough combos out there to spend 2 lifetimes tweaking for the ultimate sound so there must be plenty of happy Altec/JBL owners as happy with their own configurations as I am with mine.
If we all liked the same sound there would probably only be one speaker because others wouldn't have sold.

[Gary L]

Sure would like a number of opinions here!




All the stuff to build two sets of model 19s and all is fresh from GPA.
I plan to build an exact copy with one set of these components but the second set is open for suggestions.

Having no cabinets built yet but soon, I would gladly entertain suggestions from all regarding the second cabinets and if they should be two way or three and what additional components/upgrades I might need.

Here in the NE my carpentry business takes a dive right about now and I can either ice fish or spend my time playing in the shop.
I've spent a boatload of cash getting all this stuff together and rebuilt so I would love to have some input on making the second pair into a Killer set of 19+ speakers.

I have read many good ideas but would really love to hear the very best suggestions as to what to add to make the very best of all worlds with what I have or could get to make the best.

Thank you all for helping here.

Come on Zilch, put your thinking cap on!


Gary

[Zilch]

I'm making my Z19s outta JBL, 4325 cabs comprising the bottoms.

Lemme think what I'd do with those Altec components if I was a cabinetmaker and had 'em....

[JBLTEC]

Gary, That is an impressive looking bunch of hardware. Is there anything better than the 19? I'd just go for two sets.

Jason