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Thread: Soundcraftsmen purchase help

  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by rickedd46 View Post
    Hello everyone,

    I'm new to the forum.

    I used to be a salesman for their products from 1987 until MTX bought them and annihilated them by the mid 90's.

    We were also the main "used" equipment store in New Jersey for several years so I have heard a lot of stuff.

    I'm going to talk specifically about the lateral mosfets models in particular.

    1st generation (early 80's to mid 90's).

    (POWER OUTPUT CONSERVATIVELY STATED BTW).

    PRO POWER 8 - (FULL CHASSIS, DUAL FANS, BRIDGING INCLUDED, 1/4" AND BALANCED INPUTS, 12 HITACHI TO3-METAL MOSFETS/CH, 375W/CH@8R, 600W/CH@4R, 900W/CH@2R, 1200W/MONO@8R, 1800W/MONO@4R).

    PM1600 - (FULL CHASSIS, DUAL FANS, BRIDGING INCLUDED, 1/4" AND BALANCED INPUTS, 12 HITACHI TO3-METAL MOSFETS/CH, 375W/CH@8R, 600W/CH@4R, 900W/CH@2R, 1200W/MONO@8R, 1800W/MONO@4R).

    PM840 - (SHOEBOX, 6 HITACHI TO3-METAL MOSFETS/CH, RCA INPUTS, PCR POWER SUPPLY, FAN COOLED, 205W/CH8R, 315W/CH4R, 275W/CH2R, 600W MONO, EXTERNALLY AND INTERNALLY BRIDGEABLE).

    PCR800 - (SHOEBOX, 6 HITACHI TO3-METAL MOSFETS/CH, RCA INPUTS, PCR POWER SUPPLY, FAN COOLED, 205W/CH8R, 315W/CH4R, 275W/CH2R, 600W/MONO EXTERNALLY AND INTERNALLY BRIDGEABLE).

    PM860 - (SHOEBOX, 6 HITACHI TO3-METAL MOSFETS/CH, RCA INPUTS, PCR POWER SUPPLY, FAN COOLED, HIGH CURRENT, 205W/CH@8R, 315W/CH@4R, 450W/CH@2R, 600W/MONO@8R, 900W/MONO@4R EXTERNALLY AND INTERNALLY BRIDGEABLE).

    PRO POWER 4 - (FULL CHASSIS ,LED DISPLAY, 4 HITACHI TO3-METAL MOSFETS/CH, OUTPUT FOR 4 SPEAKERS, FAN COOLED, 205W/CH @8R, 315W/CH @4R, 450W/CH @2R, EXTERNALLY AND INTERNALLY BRIDGEABLE, 600W/MONO@8R, 900W/MONO@4R).

    PRO POWER 3 - (FULL CHASSIS, 4 HITACHI TO3-METAL MOSFETS/CH, OUTPUT FOR 4 SPEAKERS, PCR POWER SUPPLY, FAN COOLED, 205W/CH@8R, 315W/CH@4R, 450W/CH@2R, 600W/MONO@8R, 900W/MONO@4R EXTERNALLY AND INTERNALLY BRIDGEABLE).

    PRO POWER 1 - (SHOEBOX, 4 HITACHI TO3-METAL MOSFETS/CH, RCA INPUTS, PCR POWER SUPPLY, FAN COOLED, 205W/CH@8R, 315W/CH@4R, 450W/CH@2R, 600W/MONO@8R, 900W/MONO@4R EXTERNALLY AND INTERNALLY BRIDGEABLE).

    PRO POWER 10 - (FULL CHASSIS 4 CH, 2 PM860S IN ONE PACKAGE, 6 HITACHI TO3-METAL MOSFETS/CH, DUAL LED DISPLAY, DUAL PCR PS, DUAL FANS, A BEAST, 205W/CH@8R, 315W/CH@4R, 450W/CH@2R or 600WX2@8R and 900WX2@4R, HIGH CURRENT, INTEGRATED BRIDGING).

    PRO REFERENCE TWO - (FULL CHASSIS, LED DISPLAY, 4 HITACHI TO3-METAL MOSFETS/CH, OUTPUT FOR 4 SPKRS, LINEAR POWER SUPPLY, CONVENTIONAL COOLING-HEATSINKS, 125W/CH@8R, 190W/CH@4R, 270W@2R, EXTERNALLY AND INTERNALLY BRIDGEABLE).

    PA2X200 - (FULL CHASSIS, 4 HITACHI TO3-METAL MOSFETS/CH, OUTPUT FOR 4 SPKRS, LINEAR POWER SUPPLY, CONVENTIONAL COOLING-HEATSINKS, 125W/CH@8R, 190W/CH@4R, 270W/CH@2R, EXTERNALLY AND INTERNALLY BRIDGEABLE).

    A2502 - (FULL CHASSIS, LED DISPLAY, 4 HITACHI TO3-METAL MOSFETS/CH, OUTPUT FOR 4 SPKRS, LINEAR POWER SUPPLY, CONVENTIONAL COOLING-HEATSINKS, 125W/CH@8R, 190W/CH@4R, 270W/CH@2R, EXTERNALLY AND INTERNALLY BRIDGEABLE).

    RA5502 - (FULL CHASSIS, LED DISPLAY, 4 HITACHI TO3-METAL MOSFETS/CH, OUTPUT FOR 4 SPKRS, LINEAR POWER SUPPLY, CONVENTIONAL COOLING-HEATSINKS, 125W/CH@8R, 190W/CH@4R, 270W/CH@2R, EXTERNALLY AND INTERNALLY BRIDGEABLE).

    RA5501 - (FULL CHASSIS, 4 HITACHI TO3-METAL MOSFETS/CH, LINEAR POWER SUPPLY, CONVENTIONAL COOLING-HEATSINKS, 125W/CH@8R, 190W/CH@4R, 270W/CH@2R).

    A2801 - (FULL CHASSIS, 4 HITACHI TO3-METAL MOSFETS/CH, LINEAR POWER SUPPLY, CONVENTIONAL COOLING-HEATSINKS, 125W/CH@8R, 190W/CH@4R, 270W/CH@2R, EXTERNALLY AND INTERNALLY BRIDGEABLE).

    300X4 - (FULL CHASSIS 4 CH, 2 PM860S IN ONE PACKAGE, 6 HITACHI TO3-METAL MOSFETS/CH, DUAL PCR PS, DUAL FANS, A BEAST, 205W/CH@8R, 315W/CH@4R, 450W/CH@2R or 600WX2@8R and
    900WX2@4R, HIGH CURRENT, INTEGRATED BRIDGING).

    DJ900 - (FULL CHASSIS, FULL CHASSIS 4 CH, 2 PM860S IN ONE PACKAGE, 6 HITACHI TO3-METAL MOSFETS/CH, 1/4" AND BALANCED INPUTS, HIGH CURRENT, PCR POWER SUPPLY, FAN COOLED 205W/CH@8R, 315WCH@4R, 450W/CH@2R, 600W/MONO@8R, 900W/MONO@4R INTEGRATED BRIDGING).

    DJ600 - (FULL CHASSIS, FULL CHASSIS 4 CH, 2 PM860S IN ONE PACKAGE, 4 HITACHI TO3-METAL MOSFETS/CH, 1/4" AND BALANCED INPUTS, LINEAR POWER SUPPLY, CONVENTIONAL COOLING-HEATSINKS, 125W/CH@8R, 190W/CH@4R, 270W@2R, INTEGRATED BRIDGING).

    NEWER GENERATION WHEN MERGED WITH MTX:

    A900PRO - (FULL CHASSIS, DUAL FANS, INTERNAL BRIDGING, 1/4" AND BALANCED INPUTS, NEUTRIK, FULL CHASSIS 4 CH, 2 PM860S IN ONE PACKAGE, 12 HITACHI TO3-METAL MOSFETS/CH 375W/CH@8R, 600W/CH@4R, 900W/CH@2R, 1200W/MONO@8R, 1800W/MONO@4R, INTEGRATED BRIDGING).

    A400PRO - (FULL CHASSIS, 6 HITACHI TO247 PLASTIC MOSFETS PER CH, 1/4" AND BALANCED INPUTS, HIGH CURRENT, PCR POWER SUPPLY, FAN COOLED 205W/CH@8R, 315WCH@4R, 450W/CH@2R, 600W/MONO@8R, INTEGRATED BRIDGING).

    A200PRO - (FULL CHASSIS, 6 HITACHI TO247 PLASTIC MOSFETS PER CH, 1/4" AND BALANCED INPUTS, LINEAR POWER SUPPLY, CONVENTIONAL COOLING-HEATSINKS, 125W/CH@8R, 190W/CH@4R, 270W/CH@2R, EXTERNALLY AND INTERNALLY BRIDGEABLE).

    A100PRO - (FULL CHASSIS, 2 HITACHI TO247 PLASTIC MOSFETS PER CH, 1/4" INPUTS, LINEAR POWER SUPPLY, CONVENTIONAL COOLING-HEATSINKS, 60W/CH@8R, 90W/CH@4R, 135W/CH@2R, EXTERNALLY AND INTERNALLY BRIDGEABLE).

    A400 - (FULL CHASSIS, 6 MOSFETS PER CH, RCA INPUTS, HIGH CURRENT, PCR POWER SUPPLY, FAN COOLED, 6 HITACHI TO247 PLASTIC MOSFETS PER CH 205W/CH@8R, 315WCH@4R, 450W/CH@2R, EXTERNALLY AND INTERNALLY BRIDGEABLE).

    A200 - (FULL CHASSIS, 4 MOSFETS PER CH, RCA INPUTS, LINEAR POWER SUPPLY, CONVENTIONAL COOLING-HEATSINKS, 6 HITACHI TO247 PLASTIC MOSFETS PER CH 125W/CH@8R, 190W/CH@4R, 270W@2R, EXTERNALLY AND INTERNALLY BRIDGEABLE).

    A100 - (FULL CHASSIS, 2 HITACHI TO247 PLASTIC MOSFETS PER CH, RCA INPUTS, LINEAR POWER SUPPLY, CONVENTIONAL COOLING-HEATSINKS, 60W/CH@8R, 90W/CH@4R, 135W/CH@2R, EXTERNALLY AND INTERNALLY BRIDGEABLE).

    S800 - (SHOEBOX, 4 EXICON TO3-METAL MOSFETS/CH, RCA INPUTS, PCR POWER SUPPLY, FAN COOLED, 205W/CH@8R, 315W/CH@4R, 450W/CH@2R, 600W/MONO@8R EXTERNALLY AND INTERNALLY BRIDGEABLE).

    S860 - (SHOEBOX, 6 EXICON TO3-METAL MOSFETS/CH, RCA INPUTS, PCR POWER SUPPLY, FAN COOLED, HIGH CURRENT, 205W/CH@8R, 315W/CH@4R, 450W/CH@2R, 600W/MONO@8R, 900W/MONO@4R EXTERNALLY AND INTERNALLY BRIDGEABLE).

    Any errors on the description please tell.

    Now,

    The story with these amplifiers is that during their production years according for those in the know in hi fi they weren't good for hi end and according to the DJs they weren't good for professional use, go figure.

    I have tube amps, class D amps and I'm thinking of building one of Nelson Pass class A designs.

    If one reads all over the web it seems that the general idea is that there's no perfect amplifier and neither are these.

    But I have to say they sound extremely good.

    After several A-B tests the newer MTX Soundcraftsmen seem to sound a little cleaner than the older models. It must be taken into account that the capacitors in the old amps are over 20 years old and that component technology has improved vastly. Also the use of the newer Profusion and Magnatec mosfets might make a difference in some of the newer models. This amplifiers are a huge bargain. I have bought several ones in horrible condition and since the sound comes from the "circuit" I just put them on a wood plank or buy a new chassis.

    I have invited some naysayers to do a blind test with some of their amps but they refuse.

    If anyone is interested in schematics email me and I'll gladly cooperate with you.

    BTW,

    I have over 30 Soundcraftsmen amps and I love them all.

    rickedd46 greetings, some time ago that I have a power amplifier 8 soundcrafstmen and even use it, i read the post about soundcrafstmen amps and i saw the specifications and I wonder if I can get spare parts, also if you give me an idea of how to connect my speaker (I have two speaker 500w @ 8 ohm for use in bass) and my speaker for high working at 4 ohm, so I have more gain in the high than in the bass, that's mean, I have an imbalance, i use Peavy to 800 in the high and low use in the power amplifier 8 soundcrafstmen, the problem is that the switch for the bridge in power is broken and I have no way to see how to use it will appreciate it if you can get me the power soundcrafstmen 8 amp manual

  2. #92
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    cadex18,

    Please send me your email by private message.

    Rick.

  3. #93
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    My Pro Power 10

    First off, THANKS, RICKEDD46!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It's next to impossible to find any info, particularly technical, about Soundcraftsmen components on line. And you have answered practically all my questions about my Pro Power 10. I got lucky and bought it from a guy who was selling it on Craigslist for $60. I didn't know anything about Soundcraftsmen, and neither I guess did he. The lick of the Irish. I had bought some Infinity 2.5s, and needed an amp to push them. My Parasound HCA 80 wasn't doing the job. But when I got the Pro Power 10 hooked up the lights in my apartment started dimming, and I ended up tripping the apartment's circuit breaker. That Pro Power 10 is a beast. And it's such a sweet sounding amp.
    Now, as far as all that blather about Soundcraftsmen components "inferior/not quite audiophile" sound quality. I put my Pro Power 10 in direct competition, with the same components, up against Perreaux, McCormick ( is that spelled right?), Hafler, and a bunch of other amps my stereo nut friend Jay has. It sounded as good as any, better than most. It trashed the Hafler and the McCormick. Jay has a pair of MFA 200 mono blocks which Scott Frankland modified, and my Pro Power held it's own against the MFAs. And the MFAs are wonderful sounding amps. I'm sure there are better sounding amps. My friend Jay had a pair of big Denon mono blocks that were the size of small apartment refrigerators that he sold to a guy in Hong Kong for $20,000. I would have them in a flash. But I am SOOOO satisfied with my Pro Power 10. It makes my Vandersteen 2Ce Signatures sing. It's here to stay. And thanks again RickeDD46.
    Martin.

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    Thanks MJWPicMan,

    I have owned several of these amplifiers for a long time and was always puzzled about their return of quality sound and power per dollar vs. other brands of the same era which were higher end and more expensive. I worked for years in the trading equipment business and I would test all types of purchased equipment before buying them and played them for long hours in the store through all kinds of different speakers, cables, sources, etc. Sometimes we wondered why would anyone trade (at a loss) some of these fancy stuff when just a couple years before it got an excellent review in all the top mags. We used to combine all kinds of equipment from NAD, Adcom, Hafler, Crown, Carver, Klipsch, Jamo, B&W, NHT, KEF, Tannoy, Apt Holman, Nikko, Denon, Onkyo, Yamaha, Sumo, Threshold, etc. Mostly traded in or sold to us by people that let the magazines and their high end dealers convince them the sound was coming out of the looks, weight, price, gold posts, bloated spec sheets, fancy names and reviews of someone with totally different ears than yours and looking to make money from the unaware. Or simply they just had too much money and couldn't justify having something cheap in their living room regardless of how good it sounds. Some of these brands we sold new. And even though some were excellent, some didn't perform as well as priced. Sadly.

    Whenever we closed the store we would get together and experiment on all different of combinations for a few hours. The stuff from the very expensive brands was excellent but out of my reach used because I had a very hard time spending money on a different amp every six months or so just because it has good reviews. Note: Most expensive amplifiers can not be used for a party they're strictly for home use. The Soundcraftsmen can do both really well.

    Note: It is a fact that amplifier technology was virtually unchanged for a lot of years until recently when class d designers found the way to eliminate the high frequency noise of that topology and has since been breaking into the hifi segment at a very fast pace. That said all class AB (the most used to date) amplifiers and class A have been created around the same basic design from years ago and are pretty much a variation of the original with the newest components available of its era. If you know how to read schematics you can see the point. You can design 2 amplifiers with basically the same schematic one cheap and one expensive based on the price of internal components. Also you add a nice chassis with a thick face and gold everything on the expensive unit and put the cheap unit on a plain box with cheap but decent connectors. And to make sure people don't call you out on it you change something on the schematic to make it look different but with the same result at the output. On a "blind" test no one will be able to tell the difference between the 2 even though the gold in the more expensive unit is blinding everyone in the room even with the eyes closed.

    While a lot of amplifiers sound "musical" I must say the Soundcraftsmen sound like they're not there at all. IMO. The Pro Control 3 and 4 pre-amplifiers are very neutral sounding too. Remember this my opinion you might like a different sound or might confuse loud with good sounding. Btw these amplifiers do go loud on demand. So borrow one if you can and listen before you take the plunge. The physical look of the circuitry in these amplifiers (before MTX) is nothing to drool about so to most people will find they look ugly nude. I love them either way.

    A few years ago some people with with a lot of business ideas realized that circuit and components looks sell more than the sound coming out of them. Take a look at ebay. Some of the flashy stuff there might not even work when you get it. And a lot of them are made with fake parts to begin with so you have to do your homework and not buy based on looks. Some of the ebay sellers which have come up with decent stuff have found themselves forced to drop the basic components in favor of the more flashy capacitors, resistors, etc. Otherwise people overlook them. It's like that not so attractive girl at the party that no one wants with to dance but ends up being a better and way cheaper date. Lol. With this I don't say the good looking stuff isn't good sounding but the good looks don't guarantee a better sound as a rule of law. It has been proven for a lot of years that certain people judge the sound of an amplifier before they even hear it. Must be the chassis or the tubes sticking out. The Soundcraftsmen might not have the most expensive boutique components of all amps, actually they got none at all (except the mosfet$$$$), but can be updated like any amp because the parts can be easily sourced. The most important thing is that the circuit engineer must have done something right. I can listen to my amps all day and night with ALL kinds of music without fatigue. They just sound good period and when the volume is turned up they respond with authority and no audible distortion. I have crossed the wires on one channel at high volume on one of the PCR series just to see if what the company stated was true and yes they do not burn on a speaker short.

    Now don't try that unless you got over 30 Soundcraftsmen like I do.

    Soundcraftsmen did take a few short cuts on the chassis, connectors and "some" of the components throughout. It was justified to keep the costs down and survive on a competitive market. Where they didn't cut was on the circuit design, mosfets and power supply. They weren't promoting themselves as "hi end". They were promoting themselves as "powerful, reliable and good sounding for a decent price" and that they delivered way more than promised.

    Some of my amps are over 20 years old and they sound fantastic. I'm gonna start updating caps and resistor whenever I find time. I will post the work as I go.

    Cheers.

  5. #95
    Junior Member MJWPicMan's Avatar
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    Re; Soundcraftsmen protection circuitry.

    Ditto to what Rickeedd46 said in the previous post about Soundcraftsmen not burning on a speaker short. One of the other pluses about Soundcraftsmen that's not mentioned is that they were built like a tank. They take a ton of abuse and come back for more. Someone brought over some Walsh Ohms for me to audition. They weren't wired right, although the owner swore they were. Anyway they were shorting, and all my Pro power 10 did was was clip and go into protection mode. Didn't hurt it at all. I also had bought a Soundcraftsmen RA5502 amp and when I got it home and hooked it up it started blowing fuses. One of the heat sinks would get hot and it would blow the protection fuse. I figured since it was one heat sink getting hot there must be a short in that side and sure enough one of the negative banana plugs on my 2Ce Signatures had worked itself partly out of the input, and was touching the positive plug. And all the Soundcraftsmen did was get warm and blow the fuse. Never hurt it or my beloved Vandersteens.
    That really says something about the commitment and care the people who made Soundcraftsmen, particularly Paul Rolfes, their chief engineer, put into their components. They didn't have to design them that well, but they did. And I also concur with what Rickedd46 says about fatigue free listening. I've listened to my Pro Power 10 for hours, and it never hurts my ears. I always end thinking I can't believe I bought an amp that sounds this good for $60. I must be living right. So if you're looking for an amp, or preamp, and you want to maximize your stereo dollar, and don't care about looks, because pretty they're not, most of them anyway, buy a Soundcraftsmen if you can find one. It'll probably be way under priced and it will sound terrific. Believe me, when your friends hear it they will be jealous.

    Happy trails, Martin.

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    Soundcraftsmen S860 Schematic

    I'm new to the forum but have just purchased a Soundcraftsmen S860 AMP on Ebay and was wondering if any one may have a schematic for it or know where I can find one. I guess the gentlemen hadn't fully "tested" it before it put it up for bids so when he hooked it up for the check he blew the right channel speaker. He said he was going to have someone look at it but I wanted to give it a good once over before I hooked it up to anything valuable. If anyone has any info on what may have caused this it would be great. I'm an Engineering Technician and have worked in electronics for 20 years and was just wondering if any one has seen this before and maybe the probable cause.

    Thanks guys,

    Tim

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    Senior Member JBLAddict's Avatar
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    for those having used a tandem SC amp and preamp, any opinions on SQ improvement using an analog pre of the DX4000 caliber instead of the analog passthrough of my HK AVR?
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    MTX Soundcraftsmen A400 Pro

    Quote Originally Posted by rickedd46 View Post
    Hello everyone,

    I'm new to the forum.

    NEWER GENERATION WHEN MERGED WITH MTX:


    A400PRO - (FULL CHASSIS, 6 HITACHI TO247 PLASTIC MOSFETS PER CH, 1/4" AND BALANCED INPUTS, HIGH CURRENT, PCR POWER SUPPLY, FAN COOLED 205W/CH@8R, 315WCH@4R, 450W/CH@2R, 600W/MONO@8R, INTEGRATED BRIDGING).

    A200PRO - (FULL CHASSIS, 6 HITACHI TO247 PLASTIC MOSFETS PER CH, 1/4" AND BALANCED INPUTS, LINEAR POWER SUPPLY, CONVENTIONAL COOLING-HEATSINKS, 125W/CH@8R, 190W/CH@4R, 270W/CH@2R, EXTERNALLY AND INTERNALLY BRIDGEABLE).

    A100PRO - (FULL CHASSIS, 2 HITACHI TO247 PLASTIC MOSFETS PER CH, 1/4" INPUTS, LINEAR POWER SUPPLY, CONVENTIONAL COOLING-HEATSINKS, 60W/CH@8R, 90W/CH@4R, 135W/CH@2R, EXTERNALLY AND INTERNALLY BRIDGEABLE).

    A400 - (FULL CHASSIS, 6 MOSFETS PER CH, RCA INPUTS, HIGH CURRENT, PCR POWER SUPPLY, FAN COOLED, 6 HITACHI TO247 PLASTIC MOSFETS PER CH 205W/CH@8R, 315WCH@4R, 450W/CH@2R, EXTERNALLY AND INTERNALLY BRIDGEABLE).
    Hello everyone, I'm new too.

    This topic interest me, especially since I bought this afternoon an MTX Soundcraftsmen A400 Pro.
    I tried it with a par of Kappa 8. I know these speakers are hard to drive, but not as the Kappa 9. Anyway I tried really slowly with the A400 Pro and it shut down… or at least it seems to want to. I was waiting for any signal of that kind to immediately turn the volume and the amplifier down. So nothing was damage, then I used the Kappa with my Grand Integra M508 and they worked perfectly.
    But could you tell if my A400 Pro, might have a problem or this is due to the Kappa impedance dipping below 4 ohm. Another strange thing, I couldn’t see the clipping LED flashed or turn on. Did the Kappa didn’t let them time enough to do so?
    Could an A400 pro drive those Kappa 8. Now my plan is actually to use it with a par of AR 303a, will it be ok? (They have an average impedance of 4 Ohm and supposedly they doesn’t dip down more than 3.6 Ohm at a certain frequency).


    Thanks.

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    MTX Soundcraftsmen A400 pro

    Hello everyone, I'm new too.

    This topic interest me, especially since I bought this afternoon an MTX Soundcraftsmen A400 Pro.
    I tried it with a par of Kappa 8. I know these speakers are hard to drive, but not as the Kappa 9. Anyway I tried really slowly with the A400 Pro and it shut down… or at least it seems to want to. I was waiting for any signal of that kind to immediately turn the volume and the amplifier down. So nothing was damage, then I used the Kappa with my Grand Integra M508 and they worked perfectly.
    But could you tell if my A400 Pro, might have a problem or this is due to the Kappa impedance dipping below 4 ohm. Another strange thing, I couldn’t see the clipping LED flashed or turn on. Did the Kappa didn’t let them time enough to do so?
    Could an A400 pro drive those Kappa 8. Now my plan is actually to use it with a par of AR 303a, will it be ok? (They have an average impedance of 4 Ohm and supposedly they doesn’t dip down more than 3.6 Ohm at a certain frequency).


    Thanks.

  10. #100
    Senior Member JBLAddict's Avatar
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    if you're still around James, sounds like something is wrong with your amp, it should have no problem driving those speakers
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    Gang--some of the recent K2 frivolities w/ amps related to damping factor prompted me to lookup the specs on the PS400 that BMW uses on his L7s, noticed the damping factor on the datasheet at >400

    does anyone have any damping factor info for "any" of the shoebox style Soundcraftsmen, it's not listed in those online reports, or in the manuals that came with my S800. Before I make move to a Crown or other for grins for a couple hundred bucks, would like to know where I am now on damping?

    many thanks
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    Quote Originally Posted by JBLAddict View Post
    Gang--some of the recent K2 frivolities w/ amps related to damping factor prompted me to lookup the specs on the PS400 that BMW uses on his L7s, noticed the damping factor on the datasheet at >400

    does anyone have any damping factor info for "any" of the shoebox style Soundcraftsmen, it's not listed in those online reports, or in the manuals that came with my S800. Before I make move to a Crown or other for grins for a couple hundred bucks, would like to know where I am now on damping?

    many thanks
    A graph that came with the DC300A-II (the amp I'm now using with the 4345s) owner's manual shows a damping factor in excess of 1,000 in the range in which the 2245 operates. I suspect it is similar in the PS-400 though I've seen graphs for that model in the repair manual that lists the range you've quoted (greater than 400). An interesting quote from the DC300A-II manual is:

    Your amplifier can provide an excellent damping factor of 750 or more from DC to 400 Hz in Dual mode with an 8 ohm load. In contrast, typical damping factors are 50 or lower. Higher damping factors yield lower distortion and greater motion control over the loudspeakers. A common damping factor for commercial applications is between 50 and 100. Higher damping factors may be desirable for live sound, but long cable lengths often limit the highest damping factor that can be achieved practically. (Under these circumstances, Crown’s® IQ System ® is often used with Crown’s premium Macro-Tech, Com-Tech ® and Reference series amplifiers for easy monitoring and control of units located very near the loudspeakers.) In recording studios and home hi-fi, a damping factor of 500 or more is desirable.
    Soundcraftsmen literature in my collection claims a damping factor of "greater than 200" for the Pro-Power Four, Three, One, and essentially the PCR800. A review of the PCR800 in the June 1984 issue of Modern Recording and Music by Len Feldman says damping factor measured was "very high, with a reading of around 200, referred to 8 ohms, using a 50 Hz test signal."

    A later Feldman review of the Pro-Power Four quoted in Soundcraftsmen's literature said, "Damping factor at 8 ohms, referred to a 50-Hz test signal, was 205, allowing for the minimal resistance of my heavy-gauge speaker cables."

    The Crown Studio Reference I & II list their damping factor at >20,000 from 10 Hz to 400 Hz. The Crown K2 is listed as >3000 from 10 to 400 Hz.

    I know more must be better but how much do you really need? A typical Krell amp is under 120, or often half that. Some Perreaux amps claim >2,000. Pro Yamahas often referred to here usually claim >250. The largest McIntosh mono-blocks claim only 100.
    ". . . as you have no doubt noticed, no one told the 4345 that it can't work correctly so it does anyway."—Greg Timbers

  13. #103
    Senior Member JBLAddict's Avatar
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    Thanks for getting all those details. DF is a spec I really don't understand very much, just know what it generally does, but no idea beyond what point are diminishing returns?

    Knowing that you prefer the Crown over the SC, and seeing it quoted so high for the Crown had me wondering if it's worth spending some money to find out. Though I have to admit, the small shoebox with so much power and what I think is already great sound really satisfies the FAF (family appreciation factor) required in my home...that little box just sits inconspicuously on the floor delivering tons of juice to the L7 and what to my ears is very well controlled but authoritative bass from those LE120H-1s...however, if there's a cheap way to derive some improvement, I'm game

    Since you're one of the few who've tried SC against other amps on that very L7, and found preference for the alternative, I remain curious
    Performance Series 5.1/1990s L1.L5.L7/L100A
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  14. #104
    Senior Member BMWCCA's Avatar
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    In the beginning of this thread (maybe?) I mentioned I've owned SC gear for something like 35 years (currently a dozen-or-more pieces). I am, however, a short-time user of their amps, having owned mostly Crown amps during that time with the occasional Fisher SA-1000, Mac 250, and others. I've used SC pre and EQs forever, replacing my Mac C20 for daily use over thirty-years ago (still have the Mac). My only SC amp is the Pro-Power Four which is really a gussied-up, LED bejeweled version of the shoe-box. I played it only with the L7 in a single-amp hook-up, not bi-amped (either passive or active). Years later I can't actually remember why I preferred the Crowns and it may be (like JBLs) that's what I've become accustomed to over the past few decades.

    I believe I said I liked the SC on the bottom end but not as much as the Crown on the top or mids so it might in-fact make an excellent LF amp for a bi-amp system but I have no complaints about the DC300A-II in that role currently. I'd love to have the time and space to make fair comparisons between my amps and speakers but that's for the future. My next system change will be to substitute the PS-400 and PS-200 for the DC300A-II and D150A-II mostly to gain the turn-on-delay protection the newer amps afford.

    If you have the time and the few dollars it takes, I'd certainly go for trying a PS-400 or DC300A-II just for grins and tell us what you find. If you buy it right you'll always be able to re-sell it if you don't feel like hanging on to it.

    I've willingly paid up to $200 for a PS-400 and PS-200 in excellent condition, just because...
    I now own three 150s, one 300, two 400s, and three 200s, as well as a D75A I just picked up for cheap missing one knob (Thanks to Crown Parts for their help with that one!). I keep thinking when my (3) girls get places of their own where they can use it, I'll build them each a nice Crown, SC, JBL system of their own.

    And I'm looking forward to a tri-amped 030-plus-175DLH JBL system using two Crown VFX2-As and the DC300A-II, D150A-II, and D75A. If I get that done for my 60th birthday, the speakers will then be only 55-years-old with one of them having never lived anywhere but in my home.
    ". . . as you have no doubt noticed, no one told the 4345 that it can't work correctly so it does anyway."—Greg Timbers

  15. #105
    Senior Member grumpy's Avatar
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    DF is a spec I really don't understand very much, just know what it generally does, but no idea beyond what point are diminishing returns?
    It's just the nominal speaker resistance (say, 8 ohms) divided by the amplifier's
    output impedance (say, 0.5 ohms) ... giving one an example damping factor of 16.

    As with many such things, as a -stand alone- spec, it's rarely useful unless the
    value is very low... such that amplifier-speaker matching will then be something
    to pay more attention to than 'usual.'

    Putting together a high damping factor, low output-stage negative feedback,
    and high output current capability gets one a little closer to being able to say
    how an amplifier -might- work with a particular speaker, but still isn't definitive,
    as there are systems that break much of any fixed 'rule' set while still excelling
    in certain areas.

    OK, turn on your opinion filters:

    Damping factor, distortion, watts, etc... have all been over-simplified and
    over-emphasized in terms of "allowing" consumers simple differentiation of
    products.

    When the numbers are insanely good or bad, pay more attention to potential
    -system- limitations or unnecessary costs (over-design)... which are both still OK
    as long as you are OK with them (presumably enjoying some offsetting benefit or
    aesthetic value).

    Heck, I enjoy a hefty old GE portable radio in the garage or at the beach now and then

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