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Thread: 240Ti Crossover improvements

  1. #1
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    240Ti Crossover improvements

    I recently acquired a set of 240Ti's BRAND NEW in the box, unused.

    To me they are very tame speakers, and are very subdued in the mid-higher freqencies. I am using a EQ and have to raise the slope of the entire upper half from 1200-15,000Hz up considerably, 1200 is about +3 Db, 3,000 +4 Db, 6,000 +6 Db, 10,000 +4 Db, 15,000 +3 Db/ The speakers really sing at these settings. These are all approx values at each frequency, but are sloped using a Sony 1000ESD preamp very evenly from one frequncy value to the next, I can take a picture of the curve if this helps. I consider the room they are in to be very lively as well and was not expecting to have to dial them up this much, if anything I thought I would need to dial them down.

    The drivers are amoungst the best JBL has ever made, but the crossovers seem to restrict way too much,. Are these findings confirmed in the factory impedance curves? I have read over some of the prior threads, and most seem to agree that these are exceptional speakers/ I think they are very tame and uninspiring unless I greatly increase the higher frequencies with an EQ, which is something I guess I can learn to live with, but what am I to do if I have to use them in a soft room? They are functioning 100% as they should and I guess could need some breaking in time, but can't imagine them to improve that much. The bass overall is very good, so I am thinking doing some crossover mods would be my best option.

    Does anyone have any ideas?

  2. #2
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    I have mine set at -2 dB mids and highs.

    I think the system is definitely worth the trouble of biased filters.

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    Wow, you have them at -2 Db? Just using the switches in the back or with an EQ? Their characteristics are hard to explain, but they are very muffled sounding, and tell me if I'm wrong but wouldn't that make them even worse? My room is a very LIVE room and they still are very tame. The bass is very good, what will biased filters do to improve the sound?

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    Senior Member DavidF's Avatar
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    Uh Oh

    Quote Originally Posted by Inspector34
    "... I think they are very tame and uninspiring unless I greatly increase the higher frequencies with an EQ, ..."
    Have to say your sound preference is the key to your first impressions. What have you been listening to lately to compare?

    I prefer the mid at "-0-" but do prefer the lowest setting for the highs. That gives a very natural balance in my room. Sometimes some warmth creeps in on the mid bass but overall solid, smooth, very good transition from driver to driver, wonderful air about the highs.

    Live with these as is a while if you can and see if your hearing "adjusts". Otherwise I suspect major rework on the xover is a possible solution but I have not come across reading anyone here trying such a redesign on the 240ti.

    Davidf

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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidF
    Have to say your sound preference is the key to your first impressions. What have you been listening to lately to compare?
    Davidf
    I have had the Summit L300 for quite some time, and the difference is Night and Day. The Summit's can be a bit overbearing at times in my Live Room, so I thought I'd give the 240Ti's a try. They (L300) sing like Angels in my soft room, and sound very good dialed down a touch in my live room. Currently I have a set of EV coaxial drivers in my soft room, which would kill my ears in my live room. I am all about realism, clarity, detail, accuracy, transparancy, and pin-point imaging with plenty of air between the instruments.

    And to be honest my first impression of the 240Ti was one of major disappointment, although I am beginning to warm up to them a little bit. They are unlike ANY West-Coast Montior speaker I have heard. They remind me MOST of the Large Advents and KLH's by Henry Kloss.

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidF
    Live with these as is a while if you can and see if your hearing "adjusts".
    Davidf
    I AM, I do appreciate what they are capable of with harsh tracks and poor recordings, they almost completely eliminate any distorition, but its at the cost of detail and accuracy, IMO the transducers are as good as it gets, and NO I don't want to completely change the crossovers. Hmm, they have not been used in almost 16 years, do they need to be worked in some maybe?

    I am VERY pleased with the tonal balance in the upper bass which is an improvement over the L300, but overall they are nowhere near as detailed.

    I have to raise them up considerably for them to sing via a EQ, (not to match the L300's, but to sound "good" by my ears). Even when dialed up to +6 Db, they still don't sound as detailed as the L300. I will be selling the Sony soon, and don't want to invest in another EQ, I just recently acquired it along with the 240Ti's and never had the need to use an EQ ever, just thought I'd try it.. it is really neat .

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    RIP 2011 Zilch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inspector34
    They are unlike ANY West-Coast Montior speaker I have heard.
    Indeed. That's what they aren't....

    O.K., let's get some definition here: What's a "West-Coast Monitor?"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Inspector34
    Wow, you have them at -2 Db? Just using the switches in the back or with an EQ? Their characteristics are hard to explain, but they are very muffled sounding, and tell me if I'm wrong but wouldn't that make them even worse? My room is a very LIVE room and they still are very tame. The bass is very good, what will biased filters do to improve the sound?
    Having re-read this thread this morning I am no longer interested in participating in it.
    Based on your posts I would suggest you sell the 240Ti's.

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    Senior Member DavidF's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inspector34
    ..."I have to raise them up considerably for them to sing via a EQ, (not to match the L300's, but to sound "good" by my ears). Even when dialed up to +6 Db, they still don't sound as detailed as the L300. I will be selling the Sony soon, and don't want to invest in another EQ, I just recently acquired it along with the 240Ti's and never had the need to use an EQ ever, just thought I'd try it.. it is really neat ."
    Pushing up the mid band is forcing the matter and I don't think it will satisfy in the long run. Maybe it is that you require the compression horns to get that detail in what you are hearing. The Ti line is about overall system tonal balance and driver integration to get the drivers out of the way of the resulting sound. There are debates herein on the pros and cons comparing compression drivers/horns-to-direct drivers if you do a little searching. I suspect your preferences will place you with in the horns-on-midrange camp, which is fine, but may mean the 240Ti's will never win over your ears.

    Davidf

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    Senior Member edgewound's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inspector34
    Does anyone have any ideas?
    Maybe you should have your hearing checked. After years of listening the the L300's and coax EV's, could be you've got some loss in the ranges that you have to boost the 240ti's

    Please don't take that as an insult. You can't compare the L300 to the 240ti. They are completely different animals.
    Edgewound...JBL Pro Authorized...since 1988
    Upland Loudspeaker Service, Upland, CA

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    Senior Member Don C's Avatar
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    I had 240Tis as well. I also thought that they were too subdued at high frequencies. So I bought diaphragm kits and rebuilt the tweeters. This completely cured the problem. Unfortunately, the kits are no longer available.

    When I disassembled the tweeters I found that there is a small foam damping pad behind the dome. That pad has deteriorated, turning into a gooey mess. The diaphragm kit included a new one. I blame that pad for much of the problem with my tweeters. Replacing it might help the sound of your speakers. But neither I nor Lansing Heritage can be responsible if you destroy your tweeters in the attempt.

  11. #11
    Senior Member edgewound's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Don C
    I had 240Tis as well. I also thought that they were too subdued at high frequencies. So I bought diaphragm kits and rebuilt the tweeters. This completely cured the problem. Unfortunately, the kits are no longer available.

    When I disassembled the tweeters I found that there is a small foam damping pad behind the dome. That pad has deteriorated, turning into a gooey mess. The diaphragm kit included a new one. I blame that pad for much of the problem with my tweeters. Replacing it might help the sound of your speakers. But neither I nor Lansing Heritage can be responsible if you destroy your tweeters in the attempt.
    Good call, Don!!
    Edgewound...JBL Pro Authorized...since 1988
    Upland Loudspeaker Service, Upland, CA

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    Quote Originally Posted by edgewound
    Maybe you should have your hearing checked. After years of listening the the L300's and coax EV's, could be you've got some loss in the ranges that you have to boost the 240ti's

    Please don't take that as an insult. You can't compare the L300 to the 240ti. They are completely different animals.
    I KNOW this and if you would have read through my post I am not looking to duplicate the sound of L300 and was not expecting them to sound at all like them, and no I don't want the same sound as the L300, if I did, I'd just find another pair of them . You guys merely asked what my preferences are and what I have currently.

    They (the L300's) are over-bearing at times in my live room and I wanted something a little more subdued, but not this much . And I do appreciate the overall tonal balance of the speakers, they are very smooth and as I said give very pleasing bass overall, but as I said am more into detail and accuracy than being put to sleep/ I like the drivers of the 240Ti A LOT, and for the record, Compression drivers and horns don't sound too much better to me than the common LE5 mids, and to the best of my knowledge, the 104H-2's should be a great improvement as well as the 044Ti tweeters compared to the 077. Since I am not fond of using an EQ, is my only option massive crossover reconstruction? I can always put the old crossovers back if I decide to sell them. I love the cabinets and transducers enough to undertake such a project to suit my trastes. It seems you guys think I am nuts, but unless I dial them up significantly, they do not have the impact I am looking for.

    Don C, thanks for the suggestion, I doubt thats a problem as they are in AS NEW condition, but the midrange is also a bit subdued as well.

    Does anybody have any suggestions for a stock JBL crossover that is much simpler and may work for me? I think something similiar to the N65 crossovers would work pretty darned good. I never liked those speakers much as they too were a bit subdued to me, but given that the transducers are capable of more energy, it may be a good place to start. The N220 looks much too complicated for a DIY job.

  13. #13
    RIP 2011 Zilch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inspector34
    Does anybody have any suggestions....
    Buy an RTA so you can figure out what's happening.

    I suggest Behringer UltraCurve Pro DEQ2496, $250 at Guitar Center right now.

    It comes with a 31-band digital equalizer built in, and autoEQ.

    You MAY be able to get them to include the mic and cables for that price....

    Quote Originally Posted by Inspector34
    Don C, thanks for the suggestion, I doubt thats a problem as they are in AS NEW condition, but the midrange is also a bit subdued as well.
    "As new" means nothing. Don's saying the foam deteriorates with TIME, independent of use. The RTA will tell you immediately whether the drivers are working properly....

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    Administrator Robh3606's Avatar
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    I think something similiar to the N65 crossovers would work pretty darned good.
    That would not be a good idea and would probably make matters worse. You can't just pick a crossover and swap. There is a HF rolloff in the midrange to smooth the response peak in the Le-5 driver and a ton of attenuation built in to level match the 077 with the rest of the drivers. You have to remember these are engineered crossovers for specific applications.

    Rob

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    The woofer surrounds are perfect, I doubt there is, but I agee, it would be a good idea before proceeding.

    Given that they have never been used, could they need to be broken in? I have never had to deal with this as I have never had "new" speakers till now.

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