WOO HOO! The "Magic" is revealed.Originally Posted by DRG
A HUGE thank you, with utmost sincerity....
WOO HOO! The "Magic" is revealed.
A HUGE thank you, with utmost sincerity....
Zilch,
One of our members posted details of a 4 way using as I recall a 2245, a 2202, the 2344 and the 2404.
I think it would be useful and interesting to look at the angle of a 2 1/2 way and start subjective comparisons of such.The 2 way horn system might be a worthy compromise for SR but we are talking home audio here for the most part...
You can't make a silk purse out of a sour's ear....and there are now recordings and media (SACD, DVD Audio) that command superior perfomance from home entertainment equipment.
Despite the response appearing relatively flat to 18-20 khertz of your 2 way horn incarnations, they don't sound that way compared to dedicated devices covering 10khertz +.
There are sound mechanical reasons and laws of physics that prevails over why this is the case. Hence we see examples like the latest Array Series using a uhf device.
Your investigations are appreciated.
Ian
I acknowledge that JBL has thus far chosen not to exploit the apparent HF extension capabilities of these combinations in two-way designs, but note for the record that they DO, in fact, use some of them as tweeters.
It ain't as if we can actually hear up there, in any case. The real struggle insofar as the sonic quality is concerned is to get optimum smoothness between 8 kHz and 16 kHz, in which respect we have found that pushing 20 kHz for its own sake may indeed be counterproductive.
2435HPL, for example, is allegedly pistonic to 17.5 kHz. Frankly, it sounds better if I don't force the response beyond that into breakup mode. Just a theory, that seems to mess with what is DOES do well, so, to what end? An RTA display?
Again, I find the Cinema systems white paper quite illuminating with respect to HT applications and the HF extension issue:
http://www.jblpro.com/pub/cinema/cinedsgn.pdf
The other major compromise is between 500 Hz and 1 kHz, though I have not yet come upon means to analyze that. There may be better LF driver choices than 2235H. As you know, I and others are working with LE14H-3. See Project Array, for example. We'll get there....
I am sure they have tried... the fact that they may have done this or that back then and don't now isn't because they are now lame or being driven entirely by market forces... through the use of their new R&D facilities they are now making some of the best systems that they have ever been able to produce.
I think you are confusing PA applications with Hi-Fi and monitoring applications.
Widget
I believe Mr. Widget would agree, however that getting what we CAN actually hear correct is job #1....
I think it's time you had a conversation or two with Doug Button Zilch...
While fun, two-ways are nothing more than two-ways.
An LE8T-H can handle that requirement.I believe Mr. Widget would agree, however that getting what we CAN actually hear correct is job #1....
PM me the contact info, please, and the particular issue(s) to discuss.
I'm good at technical outreach....
Gotta keep the voice coil in the gap, alas.
PLUS, it has no "sizzle."
[Needs a tweeter....]
The particular issues would be everything he could teach you about compression drivers in the limited time he has. He reads the forum. He'll contact you if he wishes. In the meantime, you might want to pour over anything you can find written by Fancher Murray. You're doing good stuff here. Get some input from other sources. No one here is helping you with the back end.PM me the contact info, please, and the particular issue(s) to discuss.
I'm good at technical outreach....
Gotta keep the voice coil in the gap, alas....
I guess you are talking about the crazy >20KHz specifications... that is most certainly NOT what I am talking about.I believe Mr. Widget would agree, however that getting what we CAN actually hear correct is job #1....
Widget
Zilch I was perhaps expecting a response a little more outside the square.It ain't as if we can actually hear up there, in any case.
Its the accurate reproduction of those overtones that true audio reproduction lives and dies by.
The real struggle insofar as the sonic quality is concerned is to get optimum smoothness between 8 kHz and 16 kHz, in which respect we may have found that pushing 20 kHz for its own sake is indeed counterproductive.
The reality is that other factors are considered equal if not more important than nice re touched / eq'd curves. If its not meant to work up there why force it.
Many including most sound recording engineers and JBL would tend to disagree on your statement.
JBL's own consumer literature clearly points to and explains the pertinent facts.
'Zactly....
Let's you and them fight.
[Heh, heh....]
Ain't that the freakin' truth!That's why the DIY's added in the 077's.
Well I have to chime into this one. Most 2 ways are compromised at both or at least one end of the spectrum. The 4430 is decidedly not compromised on the lowend however up top above 10K there is no question there is room for improvement. I won't get into the midrange aspects of this and just leave it at that. Take a look at the distortion curves and you can see just how hard your are pushing the 1" driver. Sure there is output there however it's not as clean as a dedicated UHF driver. We all know that adding a UHF driver has it's own set of issues and will add rippples to the response. So again it's name your poison. Either you have elevated distortion levels or ripple in the passband. Which one is better???
Personal choice.
The funny thing is I still like the 2344 better overall, warts and all, than the top end on the 4344 even though I know the 4344 in more accurate. I could easilly live with either if I had to make the choice. They are both excellent solutions to the same problem.
Rob
Clearly, we need to do some work measuring distortion of the 1.5" drivers on the various horns and waveguides under evaluation. I suspect, just by the physics of it, that the improvement to which you allude is achievable, and more HF extension (particularly with 2431H), as well....
We agree. The 2344 is damn good. It's part of the 4430's "Magic" I frequently cite, and the standard against which any and all alternatives are compared here.
On the occasion when I supplemented it with 2404, the only apparent benefit was that I could dial in more VHF than the 4430 was alone providing, i.e., more than needed or desired.
Is the fact that we like the VHF better a bit rolled off indicative of it being of poor quality? I don't think so. The favor that contour enjoys is just too universal, and independent of the driver complement....
http://www.audioheritage.org/html/pr...bl/4430-35.htm
Possibly all that anyone needs to know about a 4430-4435 is right here.
David Smith is quite a remarkable engineer.
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