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Thread: Quick and Dirty test ride impressions

  1. #31
    Senior Member Bernard Wolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zilch
    I
    The 275nd's came in too.
    Hi Zilch - where the heck did you manage to get a 275nd from ? I need one badly myself to finish off my s3100 to mkII project. Any help would be much appreciated.

    Bernard

  2. #32
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    Last Friday (11/18) my wife Linda and I dropped by Zilch’s place to talk and listen. Upon arrival we were led past the most massive subwoofer I'd ever seen into the workshop where various JBLs were amassed. We previewed three of his systems. Pardon me if I don’t keep up with the JBL professional part #s.

    System 1 – LE14s with baby cheeks.



    While the imaging was good and the music very detailed, to my ear, originally the highs were way too edgy, almost to the point of shrill. Zilch adjusted the crossover to reduce the top end and while this did tame the sound to a reasonable level, there was just a little too much edge remaining for my taste. Also, to my ear, the sound was a bit thin in the upper bass. (I noticed this same thing listening to LE-14Cs).



    System 2 – LE14s in Citation boxes with CD horns.



    This system fills in the upper bass and tones down the treble resulting in a smoother sound than System 1. The system sounded very good for most music, and the sound was extremely articulate. HOWEVER, an acoustic track by Eric Clapton came through extremely “honky.” We all heard and commented on this, and the Barringer miced in the room showed an obvious spike at 1KHz.



    System 3 – B380 bottoms with Everest horns



    To my ear, easily the best of the three systems. The highs from the Everests were by far the smoothest and most natural sounding (not edgy at all) of the horns interviewed. The bass was tight and articulate and even though the horns were on the floor, the transition between the woofer/horn was smooth. The same acoustic Eric Clapton track came through sounding completely different. Though the Barringer still showed a spike a 1KHz, the honk was dramatically reduced and the track sounded nice.


    Zilch is an excellent host and a wealth of knowledge. Linda and I really enjoyed our time visiting and hope to do it again sometime.

    BTW, if you want to test for a honky horn, Eric Clapton’s Unplugged “Tears in Heaven” is an excellent test.

    Todd

  3. #33
    RIP 2011 Zilch's Avatar
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    Heh, heh. The "Monster Sub" is by the door so's I can teach "Beaters" driving by what bass is REALLY all about. I s'pose if I got the phase relationships just right, I could make their systems self-destruct with it.

    To clarify the systems Todd and Linda heard:

    System 1: 2407 on 2342 biradial horns, LE14A in Citation 7.4 boxes. AM6212 crossover.

    System 2: The "Hotrods," LE14H-3 and PT-F1010 with 2431H, in S99 bookshelf cabinet, AM6212 biased crossover.

    System 3: Substitute 2352 horns on the floor with 2435HPL drivers, same LE14H-3 woofers in S99's, developmental crossover.

    Thank you both for taking time out of your busy Northern California work schedule to come by for a listen.

  4. #34
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    I got to hear a little more of Zilch's experiments this last weekend.

    The first system I heard was with those litte BMS drivers similar to the JBL 2407H, on the JBL PT-F95 horn, with Citation boxes using the LE14H-3 LF, I believe crossed over 24 dB at 1.3K. 'Very impressive! I must admit, I was focusing mainly on the highs, so I can't really comment on how well the LE14H-3's did up to 1.3K.

    The next setup was similar, but with actual JBL 2407H drivers on the PT-F1010 waveguides, with throat adaptors for the 1.5" horn. I felt the dispersion wasn't as good with these horns, possibly because the driver exit is so far back in the horn compared to the PT-F95, where it's right there up front.

    Regardless, in both cases, it was amazing what these little-bitty drivers do! They can't be more that 3" in diameter! 'Really shows the strength of neodymium! I'm tempted to pick up some, and use the PT-F95 horns. It'd really be interesting to see how they'd do with something like 2214H's for LF.

    The last setup I heard was using 2435HPL drivers on 2352 horns, with 2235H for LF. I believe they were crossed over at 1K, 12 dB/octave - I'm not sure what compensation was dialed in.

    Again, I was really impressed by the clarity of everything coming out of the horns! (I later learned the LF cabinets had been out of phase with each other, which explained a certain discomfort I experienced trying to locate the best listening position.) Regardless, the sound was impressive! It didn't seem all that loud at all, until I realized I was almost having to shout to talk to Zilch! Extremely clear sound.

    I have to admit, I'm sure I haven't reached the levels of sonic discrimination many here have achieved, but I do know what sounds good to me. I really think Zilch is onto something with these 2-ways, though his custom-tuned crossovers probably have a lot to do with it.

    Yet even after hearing all these latest setups, I'm still drawn to the mini-everests - there's no describing that sound-stage, and when it's not there, I find I somewhat miss it. 'Didn't even listen to them this time, and found myself yearning.

    Anyway, it looks like a practical, inexpensive way to put together some nice 2-way syatems is in the works - I've got the feeling I'll be doing a set someday...

    John

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnaec
    I got to hear a little more of Zilch's experiments this last weekend.

    Again, I was really impressed by the clarity of everything coming out of the horns! (I later learned the LF cabinets had been out of phase with each other, which explained a certain discomfort I experienced trying to locate the best listening position.) Regardless, the sound was impressive! It didn't seem all that loud at all, until I realized I was almost having to shout to talk to Zilch! Extremely clear sound.

    John
    John, when we listended I brought in my professional Quest Integrating Sound Level Meter and we were listening at about 91-92 dBC.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by toddalin
    John, when we listended I brought in my professional Quest Integrating Sound Level Meter and we were listening at about 91-92 dBC.
    We might have gone a little higher...

    John

  7. #37
    Senior Member oznob's Avatar
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    Zilchster!

    I stopped by Zilch's place after I picked up my 4430's. Wow, what great bunch of stuff he has! He treated me to some music with a home made system consisting of a couple of horns and some 14 inchers in their own boxes, AWESOME! I'm hoping I can get the sound out of my 4430's that got out of piecing some things together. He really knows his stuff and I was very impressed. All that and he's a great guy to boot! Kuddos Zilch

  8. #38
    RIP 2011 Zilch's Avatar
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    Thanks, Oznob, and for dropping by to show me your "new" 4430's. They're in great shape and you made quite a score with that purchase. They'll be a new and different listening experience for you, and from your reaction to hearing them here, an apparently satisfying one. Welcome to the Constant Directivity experience!

    Oznob also heard the latest Mini-Everest incarnation: BMS 4552nd's on H3100 horns and LE14A's in Citation 7.4 cabs, all running biamped using a JBL 5235 active crossover with 800 Hz FFBREQ cards, recently acquired thanks to forum member Jbl4ever. Amps are JBL 6230 HF, 6260 LF, no additional EQ required.

    Oh, and $89 Sony CDP-XE400 CD player, direct-connected.

  9. #39
    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    I had the pleasure of auditioning Zilch's latest creations last night. All of the designs were using significantly larger horns than before and one even had a tweeter!!! Go figure.

    I think he is making progress, but between it being months since I was there and the decidedly compromised listening conditions, it is hard for me to tell exactly how much progress has been made. We both like the largest system the best. I assume he has described it on one of his threads, but I am not sure... perhaps he can describe it again. I did hear a bit of honkiness on all of these systems... it might be due to the fact that none of these thin walled plastic horns were mounted in baffles.

    Thanks for the "Test Ride"!


    Widget

  10. #40
    RIP 2011 Zilch's Avatar
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    Heya, Widget! Thanks again for coming by and reporting your findings.

    The "Mega-system" is here:

    http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/s...&postcount=300

    I need to build a listening room, or at least, get a comfortable chair in the "lab."

  11. #41
    Senior Member oznob's Avatar
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    3 way?

    Stopped by Zilch's today to pick up the newly re-foamed 2235's. To my surprise he had his "3 way" system up and running. The "Frakenwoofer", big mid horn and tweeter with the multi-use crossover! I must say it was damn impressive! We played one of my favorite test songs from Jennifer Warnes and I had never heard it sound better! When I got home I put the woofers back in the 4430's and played the same track. It certainly sounded great but not as articulate, especially in the upper registers, as the 3 ways. Zilch, I definately think you are onto to something! Now I have to figure out how to put a super-tweeter in/on the 4430's.

  12. #42
    RIP 2011 Zilch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oznob
    Now I have to figure out how to put a super-tweeter in/on the 4430's.


    We don't "mess" with 4430's, nope.

    You gotta build ANOTHER system!!

    http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/s...&postcount=114

    Still hafta do a bunch of testing on the "Generic" crossovers for Toddalin and others, but they seem to have tied these particular components together nicely.

    Occasionally, I get lucky....

  13. #43
    Administrator Robh3606's Avatar
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    Hello Zilch

    So what is that a modernized L300 with a 2" driver??? How do you like the 2380 and the 2450??

    Rob

  14. #44
    RIP 2011 Zilch's Avatar
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    Hi, Rob!

    Yeah, a constant directivity version, perhaps.

    Three elements seem key:

    1) 2407H mylar-diaphragm tweeter. Very smooth and transparent.

    2) PT-F95 tweeter horn for UHF soundfield matching 2380A MF. Though I haven't done polar testing, they seem to blend perfectly. No beaming.

    3) "SL" diaphragms in the 2450J's for smoothness there, as well.

    I considered using my favorite 2352 horn with the 1.5" 2452 driver, but thought the height of that horn would separate the drivers too much.

    This combination has more separation than I'd intuitively want, even, but it seems to work well.

    My 2235H's are out for refoam, so Oznob heard them with E140's reconed with 2235H kits. I'll post comparative LF measurements when the real ones get back and I figure out how to do it.

    On the Behringer RTA, the FR curve is so flat you could sleep on it.....

  15. #45
    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zilch
    On the Behringer RTA....
    How odd...

    Now, why did you spend all that money on an upgraded CLIO rig and a new computer?

    On a more serious note. Does the coated "SL" diaphragm get rid of that midrange squawk that we heard on both the 1.5" and 2" horns had a while back?


    Widget

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