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Thread: Quick and Dirty test ride impressions

  1. #16
    RIP 2011 Zilch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Earl K
    Okay Zilch , now how about grabbing those H9800/435Be combos from the Widget so that you can rework Project Mays' HF band-pass into a "no-tweeter" version....
    The Project May team suggested a two-way approach early on, in fact. There are certainly precedents in the lineage.

    Unless there are limitations in the H9800 itself, it'd work quite nicely, no doubt. There are always compromises in these design approaches, and two-way certainly pushes the limits of current technology across the performance spectrum.

    Mr. Widget has himself often affirmed the worthiness of the two-way objective. Integrating the 045Be supertweeter into a three-way design was determined to be more consistent with Project May performance criteria, though, and I agree with that.

    Maybe there's a pair of H9800's in the future here. I'm bettin' 2431H's would play pretty nicely on them....

  2. #17
    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    I popped in briefly yesterday and heard the improvements that Zilch has made to his not very quick but slightly dirty two-way speakers.

    I'll use Ed's numbering system.

    1) LF: 2235H in L200 cabinets
    HF: PT-H95 horns with 2431H drivers sitting on top of the L200's

    I found these to have excellent detail above 1KHz (the range covered by the PT-H95 horns and compression drivers). I felt that Zilch has definitely been able to get the highs out of his speakers though I really didn't like the high frequency response above about 8KHz. I found it hard, bright, and too aggressive.

    In as much as it is possible to get a sense of imaging from the speakers in Zilch's Lab, I'll give them the benefit of the doubt. I think they very well may image well, but I'd really like to hear them in a furnished living room in a proper equilateral triangle setup.

    Below 1KHz I found the blending of the 2235H to the compression driver and horn to be OK, but not ideal. As before, I felt I was missing some detail at the upper end of the 2235H's range. A stock 4430 gets this integration about as well as can be done with a 15" woofer and horn. I have heard better bass from 2235Hs and suggested Zilch take a look at the cabinets for resonances... true I have been battling these demons myself recently and may be a bit too sensitive there. I just know I have heard better bass from these woofers. It could be a room issue, room placement, or as I suspect the cabinets.

    Next we listened to:

    2) LF: 2235H in L200 cabinets
    HF: PT-F1010 horns with 2431H drivers in the cabinets.

    After I commented on the extreme brightness in the first system Zilch made some adjustments to his equalizer... I am not sure if that affected the second system as well, but they were significantly less bright. They certainly were not dull sounding, but not overly bright as the first pair. I did find them a bit lacking in detail resolution. I am not sure if this is due to their physical placement or the horns themselves. I asked Zilch to let me hear them with the grilles removed.. it seemed to help slightly. I would suggest more experiments need to be performed to determine if the difference between the two is physical placement, crossover network, or the horns.

    The bass and integration to the HF horn was essentially the same for this speaker as in the first test.

    The third system we listened to:

    4) LF: 2235H in B380 cabinets
    HF: 2346 Everest Horns with LE85 drivers sitting on the floor in front
    of the B380 cabinets.

    Here the large Everest horns lay on the floor and create an unusual listening arrangement. They are quite unusual in their response as you walk around the room... they are kind of bassakwards in that as move around the room, the further speaker becomes more on axis and it dominates the sound stage, which is just the opposite of other speakers. I found this curious and a bit disturbing.

    The most striking thing to me was the quality of the HF response through them. For the first time through any of Zilch's speakers I heard a top end I could live with. I asked which drivers we were listening to and it was the LE85s... they were being boosted with the 3110A "boost" (midrange cut) of the crossover and they really had a nice clean top end that was free of the hard edged sound of the others.

    To sum up, I'll give Zilch credit that he has really pulled a lot of HF out of these "mid range" drivers. The driver I preferred by far was the venerable old LE85. If good affordable sound is what you're after some of these designs may be the solution for you. If your goal is somewhat higher, I think the PT-H95 horn is intriguing, but I think I would pursue using it in a 4-way. I still don't believe it is possible to get state of the art performance out of any 15" woofer at 1000Hz. I also think that the HF of a dedicated tweeter is simply superior to what I heard being coaxed out of the 3" diaphragmed drivers.

    Widget

  3. #18
    RIP 2011 Zilch's Avatar
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    It's always a learning experience as well as great fun when Mr. Widget drops by. He can draw the RTA curve just from listening.

    His initial reaction that I had perhaps overdone it with HF extension on the PT-H95's elicited a big grin and double "thumbs up" from me. I can always back it down, as desired. Unfortunately, we didn't have enough time to try that this time. They were, in fact, getting a little EQ boost up there.

    I certainly agree that the old LE85's are strong contenders here. I've acquired some D8R2421 diaphragms to experiment with different crossovers using them. Some of the best-sounding horn combinations I've tested have been with these old general purpose drivers, and in the one case we tested using CLIO, the HF extension was better than titanium-diaphragm 2426's.

    Interestingly, the HF he liked the best is somewhat rolled off at the very high end. Some would contend that it's only distortion what's playing up above mass breakpoint there, anyway. It's not as if we can actually hear it.

    I haven't begun to figure out the Everest soundstage thing yet. The big horns are just too difficult to manipulate in this space. Once the H2600 throats arrive, we'll get to play around with making the "mini" version work. The behavior is startling at first, indeed.

    And finally, I'll certainly check for resonances in the L200 cabinets, a simple task with Woofer Tester 2. They could benefit from some bracing, no doubt, but I'm not gonna do the sand thing Mr. Widget is trying, nope....

  4. #19
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    I finally got a chance to really hear Zilch's system using the mini-everest horns, and along with a friend of mine, we were able to listen directly to the difference between the biased and un-biased versions, as Zilch plugged and unplugged the battery on both channels. Both my friend and I were able to perceive a slight difference, with the biased versions sounding barely perceptibly "brighter", though if I checked the RTA response, I might have used a different term. But either way, we both thought the mini-everests sounded great!

    You really have to re-think your expectations as you move your head around and sided to side with these - you're so used to hearing the point-source change to a degree that when it doesn't, you really have to do a double-take. It's somewhat unsettling the first time... Personally though, with 1" drivers, these are my favorite horns so far. We listened to the exact same system with 2344's, and I myself preferred the mini-everests.

    John

  5. #20
    RIP 2011 Zilch's Avatar
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    Thanks, John for coming by to listen. Next time, we'll play more of your "standards" on them!

    Here's the RTA curve John was listening to (top), with UltraCurve's "Room correction." Note that vertical scale is 10 dB per dotted line to illustrate the contour.

    The setup is LE14H-3 in Citation 7.4 boxes with 30° toe-in (Everest alignment), H3100 Controlled Directivity horns (in line) on 2426H drivers, biased NL200t3 passive crossovers with final autoEQ by Behringer UltraCurve Pro 24/96 above 100 Hz.

    Bottom curve is same system without correction, for comparison. It's 5 dB "brighter" at the high end.

    [That's the monster sub in the other room down the very bottom there.... ]
    Attached Images Attached Images   

  6. #21
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    Today I enjoyed a short visit to Zilch's sound lab & emporium. The fare of the day was a listen to his mini-everest setup. Very empressive. My ususal critical listening is many hours of hearing the same speakers and, while trying to tweek them to the room and associated equiptment, eventually learning their strengths and weaknesses.
    With the mini-everests, I walked in, sat down and heard what I heard for an impression instead of a certainty. That impression is that the system is very smooth and easy on ears. (I loved the Neville Bros.) The LE85 sounded the best and most extended I've ever heard for a 1" type. (Zilch boosted the HF with his equalizer, but, although the highs were extended, I prefered the slightly rolled off top that he played first) The sound was seamless between the LE14 and LE85. And speaking of the 14" woofer, the bottom end was tight and full.
    As eveyone is bound to comment on, the imaging was very good. Lots of speakers image well, but these imaged well anywhere within the outside boundries of the speaks edges inward. In other words, one can walk around within the soundfield and the singer or insturments stay put. I commented that it had a live caberet sound. Picture sitting at a table off center of the band but you still know where each player in the band is located. That's about the best I can discribe it.
    Rumors abound of a monster everest lurking in the shadows in the future. Scary.
    Robin

  7. #22
    RIP 2014 Ken Pachkowsky's Avatar
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    Most interesting read

    I quite enjoyed the reviews and would love to visit the lad myself? Perhaps in the not to distant future?

    Ken

  8. #23
    RIP 2011 Zilch's Avatar
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    Thank you, Robin. Your "Cabaret" analogy is an astute characterization of the system behavior here. I can sit well off axis, at the very edge, in fact, and even with my back to the speakers, still perceive the stereo image behind me. It's remarkable, indeed.

    I wonder if S2600/S3100 owners experience this as well, or do the woofers have to be toed-in Everest's 30°, i.e, on the true driver axis of the horns, to produce the full effect? I need to plot the sound field on a grid both ways to figure out what's really going on with this setup.

    Regarding the LE85's, as I think back over the entire Q&D history, there have been numerous occasions on which I have observed and documented their especially pleasing performance in various horn/driver combinations. Due to their 16-Ohm impedance, however, it's only just recently that I have had the capability of giving them the same HF boost contours as the others. Thank you Giskard.

    Thus far, they have been exquisite, if not superior performers in comparison to 2425/6. They do indeed have the smooth and sweeter-sounding character others have cited here, as well as a delicate and pleasant extended HF.

    It's most likely the inherent damping of aluminum diaphragms, but Mr. Widget and I are planning to more precisely compare the response characteristics of the various diaphragm types on the 2420 versus 2425/6 motors in the near future. The results may be illuminating.

    I'm not yet ready to conclude that we've been "had" by titanium diaphragms, but it should certainly not go without notice that the system you heard today is 100% composed of consumer, as opposed to pro, components....

  9. #24
    RIP 2011 Zilch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Pachkowsky
    I quite enjoyed the reviews and would love to visit the lad myself? Perhaps in the not to distant future?
    Well, "Lad" is overly generous, perhaps, but you're welcome any time....

  10. #25
    RIP 2014 Ken Pachkowsky's Avatar
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    By the way

    You would be more than welcome here as well.

    Ken

  11. #26
    Senior Member Bernard Wolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zilch
    I wonder if S2600/S3100 owners experience this as well, or do the woofers have to be toed-in Everest's 30°, i.e, on the true driver axis of the horns, to produce the full effect?
    As an owner of 3100's I can attest to the fact that they do indeed exibit the same kind of imaging characteristics. As to weather or not the Everest with the toed-in woofers are superior in this respect I can not say, not having heard them. This particular quality is not as important to me as is the excellent image width and depth with very precise and believable placement of instruments/vocalists. I know that horns are not generally known for this, but the 3100/2600 has it in spades.

    I wonder if the height of the horn has anything to do with this. The 3100 horn slot/opening is 37" from the floor, which equates exactely to my ear height when seated. How can you listed to the 2346 with them on the floor ??

    It realy is a shame that the 3100/2600 did not have more exposure in the USA as it would have gone a long ways toward establishing JBL as a modern High End speaker to be reckoned with.

    Bernard

  12. #27
    Senior Member Bernard Wolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zilch
    The aquaplas dusted titaniums don't seem to be generally available. I've ordered some 275nd's to try.
    Zilch - have you found a source for 275nd's ? I am looking for a mate for the single 275 that I have now. Am hoping to upgrade my S/3100 to a MarkII configuration.

    Thanks - Bernard

  13. #28
    RIP 2011 Zilch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bernard Wolf
    Zilch - have you found a source for 275nd's?
    I'm just now attempting to obtain them through "normal" channels. We'll see. With patience, I've been able to get just about everything in the past.

    The Radians have come in, and look very nice. They were only $89 apiece at Parts Express, certainly more reasonable than the $244 JBL wants for D8R2421.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bernard Wolf
    It realy is a shame that the 3100/2600 did not have more exposure in the USA as it would have gone a long ways toward establishing JBL as a modern High End speaker to be reckoned with.
    Indeed so.

    Perhaps there's some problem we haven't discovered yet (Mr. Widget will find it ), but these are providing especially euphonic performances with vintage LE85's attached here....

  14. #29
    Senior Member Uncle Paul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zilch
    ...The Radians have come in, and look very nice. They were only $89 apiece at Parts Express, certainly more reasonable than the $244 JBL wants for D8R2421...
    Zilch, Have you had a chance to play with the Radians yet? I'm curious about how they compare to the genuine JBL aluminums.

    Also, did the 275nd's come in?
    "Zobel is as zobel does"

  15. #30
    RIP 2011 Zilch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Paul
    Zilch, Have you had a chance to play with the Radians yet? I'm curious about how they compare to the genuine JBL aluminums.
    I've been temporarily diverted by 2407H here.

    The 275nd's came in too. We're now waitin' for Mr. Widget to get some free time with CLIO. It's 5 different diaphragm types on two different motors, not a trivial pursuit. I'll need to get "organized."

    I may load the 275nd's for a little listen first, tho....

    Edit: First try here: http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/s...8330#post78330

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