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Thread: Quick and Dirty test ride impressions

  1. #1
    goldcityspeaker
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    Quick and Dirty test ride impressions

    Hello
    I was lucky enough to meet Mr Zilch through the audio heritage community and to recieve some technical help recently.
    Mr Zilch should be renamed Mr JBL speakerman, as he has a vast knowledge of JBL/ Lansing history and of technical savy.
    To visit his secret workshop is a dizzying experience. There is no shortage of
    Projects and materials to begin with. We listened to various speakers and systems. To slowly "Warm" our ears to the task of "Test driving" the Q&D 4430's. The systems were warmed up and we listened to the original 4430's.
    We then brought the CD to another room and listened on another system the Q&D 4430's, I prefered the Q&D 4430's. For the $ they were right on.
    I must admit to having some hearing loss in the right ear, along with a constant tinnitis condition, in high C, remmnants of my marksman training.
    A round blew the breech on an bolt action I was firing, What did you say??
    Well I enjoyed the demonstration ,as did my daughter, I was very impressed with the final product and comparativly found no flaws or shortages.
    My daughter, knowing my fascination with all things loud, commented that," I had met my master." I aked here to explain, she said, "Mr Zilch had the knowledge I seeked." That was very true, having assembled many home and car audio sytems, mostly cobbled by trial and error, I met a man who understood what he was hearing, and what variable and components were effecting it. A knowledged man.
    I have no flowery prose to descibe the tune pitch tremble and tremor.
    I have no technical knowledge to state variables, crossover frequency drop off points, and other mindknumbing yet pertinant factors.
    I must commend Mr Zilch on his creativity and his aplumb, AKA:Balls, to present a near duplicate of a masterpiece, to this forum, It would be akin to Galileo saying the Earth is round. Heretetical!
    To the Forum, Thanks for welcoming the out of the box thinking!
    To Mr Zilch, to me, You will forever be known as Mr JBL speakerman.
    Thanks for the help and Cheers!!


    Note, this thread has been edited after the fact to keep it on topic and remove posts that were either off topic or inflamatory. If anyone has concerns about their posts being deleted, they can contact me by PM.

    Don McRitchie
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  2. #2
    RIP 2011 Zilch's Avatar
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    Thank you for your generous review of the "Quick and Dirties" here.

    I'm pleased we were able to get your JBL's up and running again, and I betcha THEY'RE soundin' purty good, too!

  3. #3
    Senior Member Guido's Avatar
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    BLS Reference on Passlabs XA 30.5 + Everest DD66000 clone on Pass XA 100.5

  4. #4
    Senior Member JuniorJBL's Avatar
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    Ten cheers to Zilch!!



    Zilch.... U da Man

    (it would not let me put 10 smilies)

  5. #5
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    "I must commend Mr Zilch on his creativity and his aplumb, AKA:Balls, to present a near duplicate of a masterpiece, to this forum, It would be akin to Galileo saying the Earth is round. Heretetical!"


    Hooo-rah for Zilchster's Balls! Awesome.

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    Smile

    Like so many others on the forum, we're just plain lucky to have guys like Zilch hangin' out with us. Not only does he have speaker balls; he's got cable balls, too.

    Well, okay, cable balls isn't a good analogy, but the only thing I can compare a cable to is...never mind.
    In.

  7. #7
    Senior Member Guido's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Titanium Dome
    Like so many others on the forum, we're just plain lucky to have guys like Zilch hangin' out with us. Not only does he have speaker balls; he's got cable balls, too.

    Well, okay, cable balls isn't a good analogy, but the only thing I can compare a cable to is...never mind.

    BLS Reference on Passlabs XA 30.5 + Everest DD66000 clone on Pass XA 100.5

  8. #8
    Trying to be nice Infredible's Avatar
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    I had the pleasure of spending more than a couple of hours with Serenissina Mr Zilch on Saturday which opened my eyes to what we all should look for... simplicity. On arrival you are greeted and invited to go torwards the "bunker", a small, not too resonant room full of gear and speakers like Alibaba's treasure. Q&D says it all and the reason behind this is Zilch's quest for simplicity. I had a ride on four different systems which were all two way systems (lazy guy). I'm not going to do a driver inventory but I do know that the 2431 was the main star of the show. We started with some LE14H-3 and 2431 mounted on PTF waveguide crossed over 1.1kHz or there abouts: nice... but the crossover point was really obvious... those 14" don't do the job when it comes to the mids, they sounded lazy. Next we switched to the famous "Quick and Dirties" which are real performers at the imaging job. I was listening to a whole speaker instead of some separate drivers. Then we moved to the genuine pair of 4430 in the main listening room and I have to say they're nice but the room was pretty echoey which translated to significant boomyness. Mr Zilch's work at the Q&D 2 way concept surprised me with the last system we listened to. An old pair of L200 cabs stuffed with 2235 and that famous 2431 on that same PTF waveguide was the cut of choice. The home made DC biased crossover are a big part of what makes those Q&S systems remarkable. After moving them apart as much as we could in this little listening room we spent some quiet enjoyable time listening mostly to some of my well known, to me, analytical set of CD,s. I'm used to my 4343's which are more dissecting because of the 4 ways but I was really surprised by the quality of what came out. We played the crossover with and without the 9 volt battery and to my ears the difference was stunning. Whithout the battery the system sounded much more "dry" than with. I guess that little battery is doing some wonder around the crossover point. All in all it's always a pleasure to spend some time with a fellow member comparing systems, it leaves the door open to some ideas on what is going to be next system in your own stable.

    Fred.

  9. #9
    RIP 2011 Zilch's Avatar
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    Thank you for coming by to listen, Fred, and for posting your impressions. It was a great pleasure hearing your "test kit" on these systems.

    Recognizing that everybody hears differently, I have been concerned that the several other forum members who are investing in trying out this "formula" for themselves might not like the result so well as I do.

    It's now looking more like it will not disappoint.

    [The Republic is indeed serene this night.... ]

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    Imagine to meet you!

    It is unfortunately that I have no opportunity to meet Mr. Zilch. Because we are so far away in distance.I am in the opposite side of the Earth.
    But I also look forwards to.....
    Just reading the process you listening and modifying the system, it is amazing.

  11. #11
    DJ Member djrobertc's Avatar
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    Weeee... got to test drive the Q&Ds at Zilch's place and man oh man they surpassed my expectations. Now mind that I am still a n00B but these ears are quite discerning

    First off we went over to some original 4430s and popped in my CD I brought which was IMHO well mastered for what it was (progressive house - some call it techno lol). I let this be my baseline.

    Then over to the Q&Ds and played the CD through the 90x50 horns and wow the first thing noticeable to me was those crisper highs.

    Then on to the 2431s with the 100 waveguide and still that same crisp high. This time however the stereo image was better kept when off center - yay!

    Some extra things I really liked was the sharp response to transients - especially in the "downtempo" CD we played with more acoustic percussion. That compression driver amazes me.

    the applications for a system like this seem to be incredibly broad. Flat response, good size (doesnt take up half the room) and a broad listening area without compromising stereo image make this an excellent system to consider building.

    Thanks again Zilch buddy for having me over - I had a blast!!!

  12. #12
    RIP 2011 Zilch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by djrobertc
    Thanks again Zilch buddy for having me over - I had a blast!!!
    My pleasure, anytime. Forum members always welcome!

    As a working DJ, Robert has heard the gamut of sound systems in the various clubs he's played, and also has his own pro monitor setup as reference. I was uncertain as to how well the Q&D's would stand up in comparison, especially with his "contemporary" remixes, which push the limits of sound reproduction.

    NOOb or no, he immediately grasped what was going on here, and it was well appreciated. It also seems like an RTA is moving rapidly to the top of his gear acquisition list.

    [And a monster sub or two, maybe, as well.... ]

  13. #13
    Senior Member porschedpm's Avatar
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    In the process of picking up my order of JBL Blue Grill Cloth last Wednesday from Zilch (thank you Mr. Zilch for stepping up to the plate and making the investment in this cloth so that so many of us here can benefit), I had the unique opportunity of listening to four variations of the Zilch "Quick and Dirties". After we got the grill cloth measured and cut, and the bizness part of the visit out of the way, Zilch took me on a tour of his workshop. Zilch slipped in a CD of dZihan and Kamien, music that member Infredible turned him on to and that Zilch now also uses for critical listening sessions. We listened to the following Q&D variants in the following order:

    1) LF: 2235H in L200 cabinets
    HF: PT-H95 horns with 2431H drivers sitting on top of the L200's

    2) LF: 2235H in L200 cabinets
    HF: PT-F1010 horns with 2431H drivers in the cabinets.

    3) The Original Quick & Dirties
    LF: 2235H in B380 cabinets
    HF: 2344 Bi-radial horns with 2426H drivers on top of the B380's

    4) LF: 2235H in B380 cabinets
    HF: 2346 Everest Horns with LE85 drivers sitting on the floor in front
    of the B380 cabinets.,

    Let me just say that I've never before listened to 4425's, 4430's, or 4435's. I'm used to listening to either my 4343's (with 4344 drivers) or 240Ti's. I didn't have high expectation of what these 2-way designs were going to sound like. I expected the sound to be more like the sound of a 2-way JBL horn loaded Club speaker: rolled off lows, rolled off highs, but good in the middle. What I heard, though, blew me away. If I didn't see/hear it for myself, I would not have believed such smooth and full sound could come from 2-way speakers. In all of the four Q&D variants, The bass was full and detailed. It was not heavy or fat. The clarity of the mids was astounding, and followed through to the highs. The highs tingled for lack of a better word. In all four of the systems there was transparency to the music. Maybe it was because of the amps, or the crossovers (they were works of art themselves), or the drivers, or the interaction of them all. It certainly wasn't due to the room acoustics because Zilch's workshop is not close to ideal. I don't know. But the the transparency was definitely there and it allowed not only the piano notes themselves but also the harmonics of the music come through.

    The differences between the four systems were very subtle. System #2 seemed to be a little more laid back in the midrange than System #1. But according to Zilch that was due to System 1's horns, which were sitting on top of the L200's, being more at ear level than System 2's which were mounted inside the cabinet. Both #1 and #2 had a flat, full, detailed bass and crystal clear highs. I couldn't say System 1 was better than 2 or vice-versa. Only that they were slightly different. But both were very, very good. System #3, the original version of the Quick & Dirty, sounded like a good combination between #1 and #2. The highs on system 3 seemed to have just slightly less tingle-a little flater on the upper end. Not so much that I felt I was missing anything. Just a very slight difference. The highs were still very clear and very tingly. And if you didn't have these systems there in the same room to A/B you'd never know there was a difference. But still, to say #1 or #2 was better than #3, I couldn't do that. Zilch auditioned system 4 for me mostly to demonstrate the imaging of the Everest horns. Two things amazed me about this system. First, was the performance of the LE85 driver that was mated to the 2346 Everest horns. This 35 year old driver was no slouch and gave up nothing to the more modern drivers. Secondly, the imaging of the Everest horns were incredible. Keep in mind these horns were sitting on the floor. But as you moved around the room, it seemed the sweet spot moved with you, sitting or standing. You could easily love any one of these four systems. They are all excellent, high-end speakers more than capable of running with the big dogs. I aked Zilch if he had a favorite and he said he liked them all. He said he'll listen to one system for a few weeks and then switch to another. There are subtle differences between them but no one system stands out as the best. Thanks again, Zilch, for the rare treat of auditioning these. I certainly have a new respect for the 4430's and the Q&D's. (Spent most of Saturday reading the Q&D Discussion Thread). I've also started looking at L200's with a new found respect (and lust). And I'm thinking I need to get a Behringer Ultracurve Pro DEQ 2496 RTA so I can see what my speakers are doing.

    Ed S.

  14. #14
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    - Nice review Ed !

    - I'm glad all of Ziches efforts at furthering the humble 2-way are paying these dividends .

    - ( Okay Zilch , now how about grabbing those H9800/435Be combos from the Widget so that you can rework Project Mays' HF band-pass into a "no-tweeter" version - this MTM version had been requested by Don many moons ago )

    <> EARLK

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    Thank you, Ed, for documenting your impressions so thoroughly here. As always, it's a pleasure to welcome forum members for a listen. I must tell you all there's no better bunch of folks than the Lansing Heritage has assembled.

    Most everyone who has heard them has observed as Ed does how remarkably similar these systems sound. I've consciously attempted to control the many variables; everything's the same right down to the type of bypass capacitors used in the crossovers. All run on 6230 and 6260 amps. The major differences are the horns (waveguides) and compression drivers in the various systems.

    I earlier remarked that we are well past 2370A vs. 2344A here. Indeed, the variations are subtle. If it can be said that there is a "Signature" sound to the 4430 formula, I think that's what is playing here now, and it is delicious....

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