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Thread: Live vs recorded music

  1. #1
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    Smile Live vs recorded music

    As a means to raise the quality of our lives, Huikyong and I regularly attend concerts through a package I bought at the Cerritos Center for the Performing Arts in Cerritos, CA.

    http://www.cerritoscenter.com/

    One of the reasons is the belief that live performance is the essence of the musical soul. Another is that live music is the standard by which recorded music is measured. However, this does not always turn out to be the case.

    More often than not the live sound is not as pleasing as the recorded sound.

    Dave Koz, Johnathan Butler, Keiko Matsui, Patti Austin, Norman Brown, and David Benoit sounded superb.

    Joyce Cooling, David Sanborn, The Rippingtons, Craig Chaquico, Earl Klugh, Ronnie Laws, The Braxton Brothers, and most recenlty Al Jarreau were very disappointing.

    It's not simply a matter of sound, but also a matter of performance and musicality. The tight, coherent, balanced sound of the recorded music devolves into chaos on the stage for some of these performers. And it's not a matter of wanting the performance to mimic the recorded sound; that'd be a rip off. I want live sound; that's why I'm there.

    On balance, I'd have to say some performers are better in the studio where they can fuss and tweak and dub until they get all the kinks out and everything sounds great. Others are thwarted by the limitations of studio (or the producer/engineer) and show their true brilliance in a club or on a stage.

    The first time I saw The Who, it forever changed how I felt about their albums. Pete, Roger, John, and Keith in the flesh is the best. Same with Deep Purple, Grateful Dead, and Pink Floyd.

    With some other big name artists whom I won't name to avoid a fight, I thought, this guy/gal/group should never leave the studio! This sucks.
    Out.

  2. #2
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    The proposition

    Sorry, forgot to include the point of the thread.

    Who do you think excels on the stage and who does better in the studio?
    Out.

  3. #3
    Senior Member 4343's Avatar
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    The Dead Live Sucked!

    Quote Originally Posted by Titanium Dome
    Sorry, forgot to include the point of the thread.

    Who do you think excels on the stage and who does better in the studio?
    Both times I saw them... The first time indoors, there was so much feedback it drove me outdoors! hearing a mic start to ring drives me nuts, I just want to RUN to the mixer and pull down the fader with the flashing red light on it, but the deaf guy that was runing the board never noticed the ring until it broke out into 139 dB 1.35KKz oscillation! Gave me a headache, let me tell you! Watching the guy work his way down the board during the feedback, the WRONG way!!! was extremly painful. When it finally stopped, it seemed like I was the only one in the whole place that was pissed, it was like business as usual for the rest of the crowd...
    Mike Scott in SJ, CA
    Drive 'em to the Xmax!

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    The 'Dead sucked live, huh?

    I'm not gonna go there- I will say I COMPLETELY disagree!

    However, you do bring up a good point. you're only as good as your sound man.

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    Red face I don't know who's right.

    I only heard them once, at Michigan State University in '70 or '71. Between the chocolate m..., and the yellow sunshine, and the p.. smoke, and the beer, and the girl I went with who wore the T.I.T.S. (Texas Institute for Technological Studies, she claimed) t-shirt, maybe I wasn't paying that much attention. It was a far out time, though.

    Good lord. It makes my eyes red just thinking about it.
    Out.

  6. #6
    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Titanium Dome
    Sorry, forgot to include the point of the thread.

    Who do you think excels on the stage and who does better in the studio?
    For me it is more a question of venue. I will rarely go to a large show regardless of who is playing and really love the more intimate shows.

    I have seen Joe Jackson several times in both Northern and Southern CA. A show of his I saw at the Wiltern Theater in Los Angeles was amazing. So was the Wiltern Theater. I wouldn't hesitate to see anyone there.


    Here in SF, I love the Greek Theater at U.C. Berkeley and the Great American Music Hall in SF. I have heard that the Paramount Theater in Oakland is good, but I have never caught a show there. I generally don't like the Warfield Theater, though I saw Boz Scaggs there a few years back and they had the sound nailed... I was also ten feet away from the stage and it wasn't crazy loud. Many of the popular acts play the Shoreline Amphitheater down the peninsula... what a drag. Just hate it. The worst are the stadium shows... no way!


    Widget

  7. #7
    Senior Member edgewound's Avatar
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    Vince Gill is incredible live and in the studio.

    ZZ Top should stay in the studio.

    John Mayer....I've seen live on TV and on the 'Eric Clapton Crossroads Guitar Festival' DVD. Fantastic guitar player.

    And...believe it or not, even at close to 70 years old...saw Tom Jones live in Las Vegas about 2-3 years ago at the MGM Grand...great show...he can still bring it, and sing just about anything....and does it well.

    TiDome...I'm surprised at your disappointment list...those are some great musicians and singers. Bad sound company?
    Edgewound...JBL Pro Authorized...since 1988
    Upland Loudspeaker Service, Upland, CA

  8. #8
    Senior Member 4343's Avatar
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    The second time was not bad...

    Quote Originally Posted by hapy._.face
    The 'Dead sucked live, huh?

    I'm not gonna go there- I will say I COMPLETELY disagree!

    However, you do bring up a good point. you're only as good as your sound man.
    Or as good as the weakest player in the band.

    But being on the lawn about a mile from the stage was pretty boring. Even with the big screens and the delay towers, it does seem that the artificial "enhancments" were a required part of that scene.

    All in all I like their studio stuff a LOT more than ANY live recordings of them, and I have a lot of those... Something about having a producer telling them what works and what doesn't just brings up their creativity level, and having the ability to re-take until it's perfect is something some bands just need.

    There's no re-do live! If your chops are not up to it, it shows.
    I mixed a show once with Frankie Lane, he must been 89 or so, but every note, all nite long, spot on key! None of that old-man vibrato that made listening to Ole Blues Eyes so painful on his last tour... And the local 15 piece jazz band had not even rehearsed, they just sight-read every tune.

    Anyone hear Mick on the latest tour? I was afraid to go, just thinking of his voice being possibly past it's prime...
    Mike Scott in SJ, CA
    Drive 'em to the Xmax!

  9. #9
    RIP 2013 Rolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Titanium Dome
    The first time I saw The Who, it forever changed how I felt about their albums. Pete, Roger, John, and Keith in the flesh is the best. Same with Deep Purple, Grateful Dead, and Pink Floyd.

    With some other big name artists whom I won't name to avoid a fight, I thought, this guy/gal/group should never leave the studio! This sucks.
    In my opinion the people THAT CAN play normally have good live sound. One of my long time favorites, Frank Zappa did never disappointed me in all the concerts I was on.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by edgewound
    Vince Gill is incredible live and in the studio.

    ZZ Top should stay in the studio.

    John Mayer....I've seen live on TV and on the 'Eric Clapton Crossroads Guitar Festival' DVD. Fantastic guitar player.

    And...believe it or not, even at close to 70 years old...saw Tom Jones live in Las Vegas about 2-3 years ago at the MGM Grand...great show...he can still bring it, and sing just about anything....and does it well.

    TiDome...I'm surprised at your disappointment list...those are some great musicians and singers. Bad sound company?
    All the performers that sounded good to me used the house sound. Those that didn't, as a rule, seemed to use their own equipment on stage. However, with some, it was just their inability to perform at a level of musicality close to their recorded sound that was the issue. Sound quality was okay, but musicianship was poor.
    Out.

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    Leo Kottke is a masterful musician. His live shows are insanely intimate and utilize some of the best (and rarest) microphones in the world; He has to be seen to be believed.

    In a related story- Leo rented a room from my relatives when he was younger. He became good friends with my aunt (Rachel Coke-now deceased). He continually puts them in his liner notes. Music for the People is dedicated to 'The Cokes.'

    When I was a budding guitarist living out west- Rachel introduced me to Leo. He showed me a few things, signed my guitar, and had dinner at our house. He invited me to a live show where my aunt and I got a table right at the front of the stage. Unreal sound!

    Whenever he comes out my way (Baltimore) he playes a in a little brew pub called the Ram's Head in Annapolis. The sound there is very good, and his performances are breathtaking. Hearing a properly miked 12 string acoustic being played in a small room with nearly perfect sound is an experience one doesn't soon forget!

    Baltimore also has a dynamite little town in its suburbs called Catonsville. They call Catonsville "music town" because the main street is lined with music shops selling a variety of instruments (mostly guitars) ranging from mexi-retail to boutique. One shop of notable mention is Appalachian Bluegrass- One of the world's first Taylor guitars dealers. It is renowned for world class repair and lessons. Every couple of weeks or so- the owner has a guest guitarist show up (Pat Kirtley most recently) for a workshop tutorial. For about $20 (first come first served until only 15 tickets are sold) you can sit in a little room with creaky floors and trade licks with a famous musician. Of course, the sound and intimacy are untouchable. I've seen people come without a guitar- just to listen to everyone else play! How's that for a live show??

    OK, so this was alittle long winded- but point is: Intimacy is everything for me. I wouldn't go to a large stadium show these days because I value my hearing, and I want my money's worth! I like to sit down- have a nice drink and enjoy the show. Maybe I'm getting old...

  12. #12
    Senior Member jim campbell's Avatar
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    you are not getting old dood.i recall going to see willy nelson in a "concert bowl" ,which is 1/2 of a hockey rink.i carefully selected my seat on the aisle in a spot where i could kick back and listen with a good drink etc.but all evening long people were tripping over me on the way to the beer line and back,as well as spilling a fair amount of it on me as well.it was just not a musical experience in any way.as an occasional classical concert goer i was appalled.during the performance kids in candy stripe costumes walk the aisles yelling "ice cold coke here".watching the crowd was proof that most of the people were there to socialize,drink,and take part in some event but it was definitely not for the music.i used to think that the venues should allow drinks at the seats but i now am convinced that the discreet hip flask made for more polite audiences.even in some classical venues it more resembles a cancer ward with all of the coughing.it has been suggested to me that a lot of folks just cannot sit still for anything and have a craving for attention that causes all of the yakking,wrapper rustling,coughing etc.that many people just cannot be sick all at once.ive been to the barbican crenter in london and the audiences were incredibly polite.i have been in the audience for shows where drunks heckled john sebastian and he actually had to acknowlege the idiot to shut him up.at the time i remember hoping that he wouldn't tell anyone what kind of hicks go to concerts here. i recently went to see buddy guy in a room full of drunks that were screaming "crank it up" every time he slowed the tempo or did a subtle ,lo volume passage,while others molested women as they walked down the aisles.i have attended outdoor events down south where drunks were getting arrested on the way into the venue but at least you know going in that it is a beer fest as much as a concert.beer sold by the quart in blazing hot sun,well you can guess.
    on the artist side it seems that a lot of them come here early in a tour to shake out the bugs or phone in lacklustre performances.
    if the act is rock or punk etc then the debate between live or recorded takes on a different dynamic.if you take out all of the lighting,crowd ambience ,stage acrobatics,and sheer volume,how does that stack up against the studio version.is it more a music thing or an event?i still go to some live shows but i pick them carefully.i still think that its about the music and being at the far end of a football stadium watching a bunch of over the hill drag queens (you can fill in the blank yourselves) on a big screen for a hundred or so bucks is just not on.so recorded music is for me as much the real deal as live,and either one can be positive or negative depending.you are not old dood you just want value for your hard earned cash.

  13. #13
    RIP 2014 Ken Pachkowsky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hapy._.face
    Leo Kottke is a masterful musician.
    Great story. Leo is a master of the acoustic guitar. Beantime (Mudlark album?) is a tune that always puts a smile on my face. It's a great little ditty. Would love to see him live.

    Ken

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Pachkowsky
    Leo is a master of the acoustic guitar. Would love to see him live.

    Ken

    Quote Originally Posted by Leo Kottke circa 1981
    ...I had been abused by a trombone for the preceding six or seven years. The guitar seemed fairly benign to me.

    He makes his may to Vancouver on occasion- I'm sure you could catch him if you look for it.
    He's also a great entertainer! Nothing but laughter and awe (a unique combination) fills each and every show.
    He tells funny stories while tuning, and reveals his hopeless case of ADD- constantly going off subject. He can barely finish a sentence. Obviously, he does it on purpose to distract from the constant tuning a 12 string requires (when played the way Leo plays it!). By the end of the show- the audience is usually dying with laughter as he keeps you hanging on his every fractured word. Crowd killer!
    Look at the dialogue for one of his shows:
    http://www.guitarmusic.org/kottke/champaig74.html


    It's nice to know I'm not getting old- but my values have certainly changed. How can one focus on the music with all that background noise? I love Willie Nelson, and would hate to see a good performance get killed like that. Willie is a sound junkie. Look at his last few albums and read the notes. He uses some great tube amps when in the studio! His stuff has been very well recorded in general. I think he's definately a music underdog. He could have traded licks with Django, I'm sure. Willie has a knack for putting emotion into whatever note strikes him at the moment- going completely off time, and bringing it all back without missing a beat. If someone were yelling for me to buy sodas during a solo- I'd freak out on 'em! I should stay away from venues like that...!

  15. #15
    Senior Member jim campbell's Avatar
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    i have heard willy's guitar playing and when he wants to he can play. there are lots of others who started out as serious players but later on realized that their audience wanted something else from them,as well as players locked into a rut of playing their back catalogues on the oldies circuit because audiences would not accept any new directions.no wonder some of them get jaded.but my biggest beef is reserved for the owners of venues that treat performers and audiences with no respect.cram em in,sell em a bunch of overpriced bs and herd em out the door.i think tonight ill check out the red headed stranger on musical fidelity.

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