2441/2397 combo, first listen

[Steve Gonzales]

First I want to thank my best bud, member Norealtalent for finding and delivering to me, both the 2441's and 2397's, you've NEVER let me down!!

At his and Mr Widget's urging, I took a leap of faith and went BIG. Well fella's, it was worth the time and expense. I had some 375's a while back and loved them, but they were not hooked up to the right x-over, but still, I could appreciate them and their smooth output. Now, these bad boys are properly crossed over (M553) and hooked up to a VTL model 45, EL34 based amp. WONDERFUL, SMOOTH and POWERFUL. I get it now. Though far from perfect, it is a solid foundation to work from. The soundstage just got real wide, the vocals are spot on, the sense of effortless, unstrained output leaves little to be desired at this point. These are my personal observations. One other thing, my 375's had the wax seals intact, so I never got to look at the diaphragms, but I cracked these open and WOW!!!, there's a DOME!!. You know, I took a chance on this combo, an informed one, I should say, because of all the positive things said about the 2397's smooth delivery and NRT's own endorsement based on actual long term listening experience. In a nutshell, this is the best midrange I've EVER had the pleasure of listening to, much less own, HIGHLY RECOMMENDED!!. If you want to get into horns and can find this combo, grab em', they will not disappoint you. Steve G.

[Mr. Widget]

Hi Steve,

I am glad you've had a chance to audition that combo. I do think it is wonderful. From your pics I'd suggest you try putting up some temporary sound absorbers at the point of first reflection from the horns. I would guess a 4' by 4' piece of egg crate foam or, better yet, Sonex would really open up your sound and smooth it even further.

I am fortunate enough to have adjustable damping control on my walls... basically floor to ceiling velvet curtains that I can open and close... the 2397s really like the side walls to be tamed. If you can give it a trial, you can decide if it's worth the effort or not to make some form of aesthetically acceptable room treatment.

Widget

[Steve Gonzales]

I'll give it a whirl. Thanks for the encouragement too, I'm very pleased.

[norealtalent]

Wait till you hear the Be's!!!!

[Steve Gonzales]

Wait till you hear the Be's!!!!

You RASCAL!!!.

[Mr. Widget]

Wait till you here the Be's!!!!

I'm not sold on that one... I have only been disappointed with adapters. I would say at the risk of getting banned that the TAD 4001s do sound even better on the 2397... subtle and quite possibly not worth the big coin if cash is tight, but the inner detail and sense of dynamics is just that much better and they are slightly smoother.

I've posted this before, but here it is again. 2441 in green and the 4001 in blue.

Widget

[JBLnsince1959]

Steve:

I must have missed this,but what is you crossover point?

[4313B]

TAD

What's a TAD? Do you mean tadpole?

[hapy._.face]

Thanks for the pep talk, Steve! I'm ready for the plunge this weekend- wish me sonic luck! I'll be using the 2435be's (again) thanks to our bud, Dave.

Hey Widget-

In the range where it matters- that graph isn't nearly as contrasting as I would think it SHOULD be considering the price of the 4001. Does look a little smoother...
In your experience- does one driver's specs reflect the entire make/model? A scientific approach would be to include about 10 drivers and have them averaged out to take in the tolerances evident in manufacturing runs. Probably too expensive for the ave guy to do- but I wonder if manufacturers do this. Or, do they run a bunch until they find one that specs out the way they want...
I'm new to RTA'a and I want to know what sort of variances to take into consideration when I get a readout. Thanks!
I was also wondering (so were many others) if the ferro fluid's viscosity has anything to do with performance in the 2435's? It would stand to reason that when they are used to the max in live sound- they might experience viscosity breakdown (like a car's motor oil). Thus, the dump on ebay.... any thoughts O wise one??

[norealtalent]

I'm not sold on that one... I have only been disappointed with adapters. I would say at the risk of getting banned that the TAD 4001s do sound even better on the 2397... subtle and quite possibly not worth the big coin if cash is tight, but the inner detail and sense of dynamics is just that much better and they are slightly smoother.

I've posted this before, but here it is again. 2441 in green and the 4001 in blue.

Widget

Those graphs look pretty close to identical.

Do you think you being a TAD dealer might muffle your perpsective just a "tad?"

[hapy._.face]

You're a TAD dealer, Widget? Cool! Can you hook me up with the 4001 a tad cheaper? j/k...I still can't afford it. lol.

[Earl K]

Hey Widget-
I was wondering (so were many others) if the ferro fluid's viscosity has anything to do with performance in the 2435's? It would stand to reason that when they are used to the max in live sound- they might experience viscosity breakdown (like a car's motor oil). Thus, the dump on ebay.... any thoughts O wise one??

- Hopefully, you or Widget won't mind me jumping in on this question .

- A few years ago I spoke with the Radian people about adding ferrofluid into the gap of drivers using their aftermarket diaphragms . They replied it's doable but expect a decrease in HF/UHF performance due to the added mass/drag of the voice coil ( now semi-emersed in the magnetic fluid ).

- Regarding those eBay 2435H drivers in need of reconditioning . IMO, your theory holds merit in that the act of driving these drivers to the max may have had the effect of thermally dispersing the fluid fully over the voice coils. This would add extra weight and be dentrimental to performance by reducing the HF/UHF response. ( Usually, only enough ferrofluid is put into the gap so that 20% to 50% of the voice-coil is emersed & drags through it. & It does add drag or damping )

- FerroFluids are available in a wide range of viscosities . I've been told that trial & error is the usual approach taken to getting the correct match of fluid weight(power handling) to HF performance .

- I'm speculating that JBL Pros' "reconditioning" has a lot to do with (i) Fully cleaning the fluid from the Gap (ii) Removing the "thinned & dispersed oil" from the voice coils & (iii) Reinstalling fresh ferrofluid back into the bottom of the gaps (iv) Refitting the diaphagms .

After close to 3 decades in the SR business / that's my best guess .

- FerroFluid is ( IME ) a power handling "fix" / not a response fix . I much prefer what JBL achieves ( for HiFi purposes ) with its' creative application of aquaplas or other so called poly-laminates. Take a look at the reduced 3rd harmonic distortion in the 435Be versus the 2435H ( somewhere in Widgets' 243x thread of comparitive measurements ) .

- I have a pair of brazilian drivers ( bought for evaluation 6 years ago ) that use FerroFluid. Even though the diaphragms are titanium , the magnetic fluid damps out the typical titanium "nasties". All in all, their response is very "calm" for a titanium diaphragm. I attribute this to the FerroFluid ™ in the gap. Too bad the driver has so many other response anomalies that render it unusable.



FerroTec , manufacturer of FerroFluids ™ .

[Steve Gonzales]

Steve:

I must have missed this,but what is you crossover point?

The horn comes in at 800hz and then hands off at 5khz. The M553's maximum mid to high point is 5khz, as Scotty, from StarTrek would say:"I'm givin' her all she's got captain!". But here's one cool thing, the L220/222's original passive crossover points are 800hz/5khz. Like I said, it's not perfect, but a good start. Ideally, I would like to raise the upper crossover point to at least 8khz, maybe a little higher when I get into swapping crossovers. Thanks, Steve G.

[Steve Gonzales]

Thanks for the pep talk, Steve! I'm ready for the plunge this weekend- wish me sonic luck! I'll be using the 2435be's (again) thanks to our bud, Dave.

Hey Widget-

In the range where it matters- that graph isn't nearly as contrasting as I would think it SHOULD be considering the price of the 4001. Does look a little smoother...
In your experience- does one driver's specs reflect the entire make/model? A scientific approach would be to include about 10 drivers and have them averaged out to take in the tolerances evident in manufacturing runs. Probably too expensive for the ave guy to do- but I wonder if manufacturers do this. Or, do they run a bunch until they find one that specs out the way they want...
I'm new to RTA'a and I want to know what sort of variances to take into consideration when I get a readout. Thanks!
I was also wondering (so were many others) if the ferro fluid's viscosity has anything to do with performance in the 2435's? It would stand to reason that when they are used to the max in live sound- they might experience viscosity breakdown (like a car's motor oil). Thus, the dump on ebay.... any thoughts O wise one??

I think that the fact that you've got Dave on your side negates the need for luck. We've talked about your new set up and it should be very interesting. Lots of potential there. Quite the step forward from an L212 system. Go get em' !.

[hapy._.face]

Steve G-

Thanks!


Earl-

Thank you so much for the post! I have learned something valuable yet again.