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Thread: D130 versus D130F for Fender amp--help!

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    D130 versus D130F for Fender amp--help!

    I'm brand new to the forum and, frankly, pretty ignorant about speakers. I'd like to install a D130 '15, 8 ohm speaker in my '64 Fender Vibroverb amp. These, of course, are not easy to come by, especially in their 'unreconed' state, which is my preference. I seel these speakers from time-to-time on e bay, but onlly occassionally those with the 'F' (Fender) designation. I more often see the D130 'full range'. I know the F was marketed as the instrument speaker version of the D130, and I know there were some alterations--to the speaker frame, I believe--for the F model. That said, will the D130 (sans 'F') sound and perform the same in my Vibroverb as the F version? Or, should I hold-out for the D130F?

    Also, all my searching to date has been on e-bay, and, franky, I don't really know if that's a reliable source for these speakers or not. I was hoping that you JBL experts might also counsel on reliable, trustworthy sources for finding these speakers. Thank you, Steveokla.

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    Senior Member oznob's Avatar
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    Welcome to the Forum! As I recall, Leo Fender, James B. Lansing and Dick Dale collaborated to make the D130 suitable for guitar amps which had more power, distortion etc. than they were originally designed for. Dick Dale loved the sound of the D130 with his guitar amps but kept blowing them as they were originally designed for home use with much lower power amps. Some of the guys here can correct me if I'm wrong but, I believe the D130F has a larger voice coil and was made to dissipate more heat. You can check the search link to find out additional and, probably more accurate info. I have a pair of original 16 ohm D130's from 1958. The cone and voice coils were very bad so I had to have them completely re-built. They had to be sent to JBL to be machined for the larger voice coils of today and re-magnetized. I had them coned for 8 ohm and used them in a Bassman cabinet. A guitar player I know has a showman cabinet with D130F's in them. We did and A/B using the same amp and found very little, if any, difference in the sound between the two. Any slight difference could be from the cabinet design? In essence the D130's were made into D130F's for lack of a better description. I am going to sell the re-built D130's, PM me if you are interested.

    Mark

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    Senior Member Hamilton's Avatar
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    Cool on the '64 Vibroverb.

    I made the dreadful mistake of selling mine about seven years ago... ...man, what a mistake.
    There are two theories to arguing with women, but...neither has worked.

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    Thanks Mark. Here's something I've tracked down that will doubtless mean more to you than to a speaker Neanderthal like myself. Perhaps you could explain the implications--this is a response to some questions (on some message board) about D130's apparently directed to Harvey Gerst (sp?) who, it appears, was responsible for the engineering of these speakers, at least in part. Here's what he says:

    I never had the honor of meeting or talking to Dick Dale, so I'd have to say
    that perhaps his memory has been clouded by the passing years. It's true that
    the JBL F series was partly about improving the current 2 models being used by
    Fender and others, namely the D130 and D131. It was my proposal to expand the
    line of speakers and at the same time, make some refinements to those speakers
    to make them more suitable to the guitar market. Here's what I did and why:

    Opened the voice coil gap slightly on the D130F to allow more tolerance in
    mounting. Most people didn't realize that even though 8 mounting holes were
    available, only using four is the recomended mounting. And you don't screw them
    down tight to the board - that warps the frame. You use two fingers to do the
    final tightening - the casket will them complete the seal. When you warp the
    frame by overtightening, the voice coil can go out of round and eventually drag
    and short out. I opened the gap slightly to allow for this problem with just a
    very slight loss in efficiency - less than 1 dB.
    > For the original poster - regarding power ratings, I checked my
    > official(3/70) JBL spec sheet for the F models and the 110F, 120F, & 130F
    > are all rated at 100W continuous, the 140F @ 150W continuous. JBL defines
    > 'continuous power' in my 4311B spec sheet as 3dB greater than RMS which
    > would put the RMS rating of a D130F at 50W. On the other hand, D120Fs &
    > D130Fs ran reliably in Showman 12s, Showman 15s, and early Boogies at
    > considerably more power, so Mr. Gerst's & JBL's ratings are not marketing
    > hype! It also appears that the 120F & 130F use identical magnet structures
    > @ 11 pounds, 12,000 gaus flux density, and 275,000 maxwells total flux.

    The D120F and the D130F, like their close cousins, the D130 and D131, all shared
    the same voice coil, dome, spider, and magnet assembies, except for the
    slightly wider gap on the top plate. I think the flux density was really around
    11,700 gauss or so on the 120F & 130F because of the slightly enlarged gap,
    mentioned earlier.


    Frankly, this doesn't mean a great deal to me, but I thought someone might translate. Many thanks, folks.

    PS-Hamilton, doubtless you should have kept the VV, but, Lordy, what a collection of Marshalls!!





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    Senior Member edgewound's Avatar
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    Hi Steve,

    Do a forum search for member Harvey Gerst's posts. He is the man responsible for the D130F at JBL in the early 1960's and knows more than anyone...he's a member of the forum and looks in occassionally. That surf guitar player is full of himself when he claims to be responsible for the D130F....but what else is new? It's funny to see him strut around the NAMM show looking for attention. Best to keep our daughters away from him.

    Anyway... ...theres a reason the D130 led to the D130F. The D130F has a larger gap, .057", to maintain reliability for musical instrument use. The D130 has a .053" gap width that proved to be too tight a tolerance for the violent transients of the guitar and clumsy installation in guitar amps...the frame was frequently torqued down too tight on amp cabinet baffle boards warping the frame and cause voice rubs which led to early failure. The D130F also had "goop" coated on the paper surround to preserve the strength of the cone in the elements, otherwise the untreated paper would deteriorate prematurely under harsh conditions.

    You really need to know what you're doing when searching eBay for speakers. I wouldn't put a vintage original D130 in a guitar amp....it's days would be numbered. I'd try to find a reconable D130F and have it reconed with a new E130 kit which is what the factory does. I'm a JBL Service Agency for 18 years so I'm well versed in what to do. A less costly alternative would be to find a K130 in working condition, about $100-$150.00 range, or find a reconeable frame $30-$50 range. A recone will cost $194.00 with a genuine factory kit...beware of aftermarket recones, they just aren't up to the factory specs. If you can find a good deal on a well done D130F recone, that's a good alternative too. then there's the more current E130 with ceramic magnet...slightly more midrange punch and about 10 pounds heavier. I use an E120 with my guitar amp, and it screams....but it's a little heavy.

    You're welcome to PM me for contact info if you'd like to talk more.

    Hope this helps.
    Edgewound...JBL Pro Authorized...since 1988
    Upland Loudspeaker Service, Upland, CA

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    Senior Member oznob's Avatar
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    Harvey should know!

    Some of what I and others have heard about the development of the F model speakers is probably myth or urban legend. If Harvey Gerst says it's so, then I am sure it is SO!

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    Senior Member oznob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by edgewound
    Hi Steve,

    Do a forum search for member Harvey Gerst's posts. He is the man responsible for the D130F at JBL in the early 1960's and knows more than anyone...he's a member of the forum and looks in occassionally. That surf guitar player is full of himself when he claims to be responsible for the D130F....but what else is new? It's funny to see him strut around the NAMM show looking for attention. Best to keep our daughters away from him.

    Anyway... ...theres a reason the D130 led to the D130F. The D130F has a larger gap, .057", to maintain reliability for musical instrument use. The D130 has a .053" gap width that proved to be too tight a tolerance for the violent transients of the guitar and clumsy installation in guitar amps...the frame was frequently torqued down too tight on amp cabinet baffle boards warping the frame and cause voice rubs which led to early failure. The D130F also had "goop" coated on the paper surround to preserve the strength of the cone in the elements, otherwise the untreated paper would deteriorate prematurely under harsh conditions.

    You really need to know what you're doing when searching eBay for speakers. I wouldn't put a vintage original D130 in a guitar amp....it's days would be numbered. I'd try to find a reconable D130F and have it reconed with a new E130 kit which is what the factory does. I'm a JBL Service Agency for 18 years so I'm well versed in what to do. A less costly alternative would be to find a K130 in working condition, about $100-$150.00 range, or find a reconeable frame $30-$50 range. A recone will cost $194.00 with a genuine factory kit...beware of aftermarket recones, they just aren't up to the factory specs. If you can find a good deal on a well done D130F recone, that's a good alternative too. then there's the more current E130 with ceramic magnet...slightly more midrange punch and about 10 pounds heavier. I use an E120 with my guitar amp, and it screams....but it's a little heavy.

    You're welcome to PM me for contact info if you'd like to talk more.

    Hope this helps.
    Hi Edge,

    I had my D130's reconed with E130 kits and they are so nice! I have a 1974 SUNN model T head and it's a nice combination. Unfortunately, I have never gigged with them and I am full time on the drums now. Need some cash for triggers, mics and new booms. Going to have to part with the D130's. They cost me $500 to be machined and re-coned, OUCH, but they were done right with all JBL parts, I have the receipt and invoice. I would make someone a great deal on them.

    Mark

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    Thank you very much, one and all. Edgewound--yours is a counsel of perfiection. That's precisely the sort of information I was hoping to get. I'll certainly start thinking about the alternatives you mention. Doubtless, it's in large measure the mystique and not particularly rational, but I sort of had my heart set on a D130F in original form, if it can be had. Are there any reliable sources likely to have any in their inventory?

    That said, thank you for your invitation to visit some more on the matter--be assured it's much appreciated. I had earlier discounted the prospects of reconing on the grounds that the re-coned version would never sound like the original; but that may all be a myth I've encountered on various vintage amp forums. Given your obvous expertise, perhaps you can dispel those myths and others relating to reconing? Many, many thanks, Steve

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    Senior Member edgewound's Avatar
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    Steve,

    Thanks for the kind words. There's definitely a cool factor to find an original vintage D130F...and a high price tag...and a high likelyhood of limited time playing nirvanha. That's what you'll get with a 40+plus year old speaker...things just have a tenedency to dry up and quit after so long.

    As far as recones go....when it's done right....clean...meticulous...and the cone kit is right....it's as good as new....because the business end is new.

    As far as tone goes...a vintage paper surround D130F sounds a little different that a D/K130 reconed with a new E130 kit. First, it handles more power...300 watts in a sealed enclosure....150 watts in open back. The double half roll surround affords a little richer bottom end due to increased excursion. The D and K series alnico magnet/motor structures are virtually identical in gap flux,provided thay have a full charge, and gap width . Some actually prefer the expanded tonal range with a an E130 kit installed...I've heard some players say the D130F is a little too shrill in an open back combo, but the cone breaks up a little more due to limited excursion...it's a matter of taste.

    I'm not going to talk you out of finding that pristine D130F your searching for, I'm just giving you the caveats...be prepared to pay $300-500 dollars for a minty one. You can always recone it later if it quits. Maybe you should find both....one for the collector value....one for the workhorse value.
    Check out these recent eBay auctions for Vibroverbs:
    http://cgi.ebay.com/1963-Fender-Vibr...QQcmdZViewItem

    http://cgi.ebay.com/Original-1963-Fe...QQcmdZViewItem

    I hope my 1962 Tremolux gets there too....wishful thinking?
    Edgewound...JBL Pro Authorized...since 1988
    Upland Loudspeaker Service, Upland, CA

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    Senior Member oznob's Avatar
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    Dick Dale

    http://www.dickdale.com/history.html

    This is an interesting article on Dick Dale, "King of the Surf Guitar." It gives an account of his role in the creation of the D130F. I certainly don't believe everything I read but.....

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    EW--again, my sincerest thanks for sharing your time and expertise. Be certain it is genuinely appreciated. This is an impressive site, and I'm very glad I stumbled onto it.

    I'll take your counsel to heart. The quest for the holy grain minty D130F may be ill-fated in any case, such that I may wind-up going one of the directions you indicated. I also rather like the idea of the collector-plus-every day pair of speakers.

    I had figured to pay around 300 or so for a first-rate D130F, but was certainly hoping to avoid having to pay much more (e.g., $500). Then again, I haven't even found any in the 300-500 range that are F's with original cones. It may all lead nowhere.

    You're auctioning a Tremolux? Great amp. I guy that wound up playing bass for us when I was an adolescent had one--blonde, oxblood. Wonerful amp. Wish I had it now. Then again, there's so much of that old stuff that, had I known . . .

    Personally, I'm on the hunt for a brown Bassman--looking at one on e-bay that looks good, but with goofy speakers (Jensen P12S, "Anico 5'. I believe that's a ludicrously low power speaker that would never hold up in a cranked bassman. Of course, could always pop some Oxfords in there or D120 Fs', I suppose. Well, thanks again, and kindest regards, Steve

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    Senior Member Hamilton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by edgewound
    ...That surf guitar player is full of himself when he claims to be responsible for the D130F....but what else is new? It's funny to see him strut around the NAMM show looking for attention. Best to keep our daughters away from him.
    I shouldn't laugh at that but I think it's too profound not too.
    There are two theories to arguing with women, but...neither has worked.

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    Dick Dale

    Say what you want about him personally, but one things for sure, HE CAN PLAY THAT STRAT!!!

    A good friend of mine grew up in Hawthorne, CA. He said, back in the day, if The Beach Boys were playing a gig and Dick Dale and his Deltones were playing close by, guess who drew the biggest crowd?

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    Quote Originally Posted by oznob
    http://www.dickdale.com/history.html

    This is an interesting article on Dick Dale, "King of the Surf Guitar." It gives an account of his role in the creation of the D130F. I certainly don't believe everything I read but.....
    The original D130 was around in the hifi world long before Dick Dale. I never met him, although I had heard his records.

    The fact that he describes the alleged changes to the D130F - and get's it wrong means that he doesn't have a clue as to what the changes did to improve the D130 for musical instrument applications.

    It wasn't "a rubberizing compound we applied to the edge of the D130 to improve cone stability due to large excursions". That's pure BS. It was the same damping "goop" we used on the D123. I used it to prevent the cone edge from drying out when the speakers were played outdoors. The "goop" was mainly used to prevent ringing in the D123, but I figured it would also help to keep the surround in the D130 from cracking and drying out.

    There was no change to the voice coil whatsoever; that would require major reworking of our jigs and I was all about pitching the new MI line to Bill Thomas as a cheap way to increase sales and stop repair problems, by coming up with some cheap fixes, AND making the MI line more attractive by adding two new models (the D110F and D140F), built from existing parts.

    Opening up the top plate was a no-brainer, since 1.) we didn't hafta do any major machinery changes, and 2.) it would prevent the power screwdriver, ham-handed idiots at Fender from torquing the hell out of the frame and causing the voice coil to warp. (Well, it would still warp, but the extra clearance in the new top plate would keep the windings from shorting out.) The new top plate resulted in less than a 1 dB drop in efficiency.

    Dick Dale can posture all he wants; I never talked to him, Leo, or Freddy T. about the "F" series.

    I wrote a one page proposal to Bill Thomas, outlining the ideas above and said it would probably increase sales of the MI stuff from $300,000 (where it was) to $1,000,000 within a year, at minimal cost to JBL. Bill Thomas said go for it, put me in charge, and we did $1,200,000 the first year. And that's the true story.
    Harvey "Hifi" Gerst
    ("Hifi" was my nickname at JBL.)

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    Senior Member edgewound's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oznob
    http://www.dickdale.com/history.html

    This is an interesting article on Dick Dale, "King of the Surf Guitar." It gives an account of his role in the creation of the D130F. I certainly don't believe everything I read but.....
    Harvey, thanks for the true story.

    I read the Dick Dale website...his first name says it all.

    Dick Dale claims...in writing, for the whole world to see... to have invented the D130....unbelievable.
    Edgewound...JBL Pro Authorized...since 1988
    Upland Loudspeaker Service, Upland, CA

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