Horns VS cones

[DavidF]

I would like to hear what people have to say about horns vs dome/cone speaker systems.

All things equal, horns provide more sound with less distortion. That’s the big plus and it should be enough except that the bandwidth of horns is really narrow compared to direct radiators. Working more toward the subjective, horns couple the sound wave from driver-to-room with a sense of transient snap in the sound wave. The leading edge of the hammer on the string on the recorded piano strikes your ears almost like is direct-wired to your ear drum. The cone/dome in contrast can sound a bit dulled in comparison, like the air damped the leading edge from speaker-to-ear.

Horn downsides are many so compromises abound with their use. The ideal set up is the all-horn system. This brings the speed and horn sound all across the spectrum. Since bass horns are huge, though, most of the time the first significant compromise is the use of a slow-poke cone woofer. The next significant compromise is limited bandwidth. The KlipschHorn barely covers the typical audio spectrum but does so with all kinds of colorations. Still, the magic of that speaker is the full horn sound top-to-bottom. Another pesky problem with horns is the sound return from diffraction all along the horn path. This creates nulls and peaks that are difficult to tame and color the sound to some extent. There is also time delay, power response disconnects, falling high-end response, and more, to work with in horn systems. More recent developments (and revisiting some very old ideas to be sure) with high frequency horns (yea, JBL) dispersion and wave propagation have gone along way to mitigate the legacy problems of horns.

People can become accustomed to the “horn sound” and this to them becomes the norm. Listening to direct radiators then seems wrong even though the direct radiator system is providing all of the same energy and response. Ideally, you should not be able to “hear” the horn but folks often confuse the horn effect for “better” than the direct radiator. Not necessary so, bro.

The world still needs a better horn so that leaves only the cost to worry about. And, yes, wouldn't it be nice to have the low end with the same snap and clarity heard with a horn high end? More money, much more space.

Davidf

[Titanium Dome]

Hey Dome

Your missing Klipsh with their Tractics horns, Edgar Horns, and several others out there. Horns have a small but devoted group of followers. As far as more Hornies here than the norm your probably correct. The thing is with JBL, any of the larger systems are at least a hybrid with a horn loaded mid, tweeter of both. Horns are so ingrained in JBL's heritage I think it would be unusual for a JBL lover not to at least appreciate their advantages and not fall head over heels for the dynamic and effortless presentation they are capable of. In general these are only rarely approached by most other dynamic loudspeakers. The dynamic drivers that come closest to me are JBL, Altec and Tad drivers. No surprise there though.

Rob

Hi Rob.

Not missing Klipsch as a big purveyor of horns, but in the consumer space, still not a big segment. Going to some of the multipurpose audio sites, there's lots of air about Bose, Paradigm, Athena, Ascend, Rockets, KEF, Polk, B&W, DefTech, Energy, Wharfdale, etc.

There's a bit of Klipsch and even less of JBL, and the JBL is almost always about Northridge it seems. Too often the Klipsch threads involve getting advice on what to replace the Klipsch speakers with.

[Steve Gonzales]

I've just finished listening to some of my favorite recordings after a long day of work and I'm just amazed at the clarity and dynamics of the system I've worked so hard to build for myself. There is some well recorded music I own, that during playback, you would swear the performer is right in front of you, awesome!. I love JBL compression drivers/horns. They just satisfy me. I've owned a bunch of JBL models over the years and they were fine for that point of the journey, but once I heard the horns, I knew that was what I was searching for. It's a funny thing, I can't understand how a person could like anything else and then my experience in life tells me that 'to each, his own' is the real answer to the question. The L250 is probably the only pure cone equipped model that I enjoy listening to for an extended period. I haven't heard TiDome's models, so I can't say I've heard them all, but for me, it's gotta be compression drivers and horns. My wish is to express my personal take on this subject and not to offend one single member who's preference is cone/domes or not in line with me, just as long as they are:

Just Bitchin' Loudspeakers!

[scott fitlin]

Horn downsides are many so compromises abound with their use. The ideal set up is the all-horn system. This brings the speed and horn sound all across the spectrum. Since bass horns are huge, though, most of the time the first significant compromise is the use of a slow-poke cone woofer. The next significant compromise is limited bandwidth. The KlipschHorn barely covers the typical audio spectrum but does so with all kinds of colorations.

But there are more types of bass horns the just K Horns. I agree, K Horns have speed, but sound a bit muffled in the mid bass, low mid region! This is the primary reason I only like folded bass horns, for sub bass duty. For bass, mid bass, I like the Altec style of bass horns, which JBL also made horns of similar type. Straight, front loaded bass horns do not sound like Klipsch horns.

With the Altec VOTT style horns, you get the projectivity, and dynamic snap horns are famous for, as well as the clarity of a direct radiating woofer. Another topic of debate is the purity, but limited LF BW of a TOTAL straight front loaded horn cabinet, with no bass reflex vent to enhance LF performance, or combination vented/straight front loaded horns. I prefer the combination cabinets, such as Altec 816,s, and 817,s and some of the larger VOTT cabs like 211,s! These have the dynamics and punch, and realism, and a more extended LF.

[JuniorJBL]

To Davidf and Ian

Thanks for sharing your very informative views.

The main reason I am asking this question is because I would like to know what other people hear!
I am not trying to put others against others I am trying to understand.
I just sat down and listened to one of my systems and I am now hearing a presence far back (more than I think it should be) and it does seem that it should be more forward. This does not say it sounds bad just lacking in the mids as far as mids go.

I am younger than most here (38) and I would like to continue to enjoy ALL speaker systems for what they are. I have just been out of the loop on horns. I have listened to a few "other" horn systems but they did not do it for me. Do not get me wrong they did sound good but as I listened to them I wondered If you removed the horn UHF and replaced it with a XXX it might be more to my liking. These are just some of the "feelings" I have had when listening.

I am thinking I should "play" with a few different combo's and see what sounds good to my ears. This will be hard because of the cost of the shop I just built but will soon come. I am sorry that I put "keep it to JBL" as I was meaning to build JBL horn systems. It would seem that some people can not explain what they hear without saying what they listened to.
I am not concerned with "what kind of speaker they listened to" just what got them going about it. Also how would you get there from here with JBL.
This is what it's about.
I have not been graced with hearing a pair of 4343,4344,4345's or any other horn/lens based JBL monitor for more than about 1-2 minutes.
I have built LARGE horn based LF (16'h x 16' wide) but unless you have a room the size of !!!X$%#@#$E^XX!!! then you are Sh!t out of luck. they just do not work in small rooms very well.
So anyone who can give this kind of description about how they like "whatever" Please respond.
Also if you have some design "theories" please include them.

Thanks very much for the replies.
Shane

[JuniorJBL]

Thanks Steve and Scott for your input.
I was posting while you were. It would seem that a "mix" of the two would be the best for me. I am a fan of the extended ULF that you can only get from bass reflex/sealed subs in a small room. It would seem that I am searching for the "mid" freqecies that sound so present when listening to a speaker system. It would also seem that is why sometimes I like LOUD when I am trying to listen to music.

Edit: Mr. Widget where did you go?

[Mr. Widget]

Edit: Mr. Widget where did you go?

I'm trying to avoid cluttering these threads with the useless fluff that seems to pour out at times.


Widget

[JuniorJBL]

I'm trying to avoid cluttering these threads with the useless fluff that seems to pour out at times.


Widget

OK! I understand

[Steve Gonzales]

Thanks Steve and Scott for your input.
I was posting while you were. It would seem that a "mix" of the two would be the best for me. I am a fan of the extended ULF that you can only get from bass reflex/sealed subs in a small room. It would seem that I am searching for the "mid" freqecies that sound so present when listening to a speaker system. It would also seem that is why sometimes I like LOUD when I am trying to listen to music.

Edit: Mr. Widget where did you go?

First off, you are very welcome!.
Secondly, it seems your are searching for the same thing that just about everyone else is. I think that a reasonable compromise (IMHO) is a mixture of both cones and compression/horns, JBL did it-4343 etc. I think a great setup to try is 077/076= UHF, 2440/2441/375/376 on a 2397 Smithhorn= midrange, 2122/2123 midbass, 2235H/2245H = LF and a good electronic crossover. This setup is close to a 4343 or 4345 configuration with the 2397 horn being able the deliver the 'goods' better than a 2311/2308-H93/375/6 or a 2307/H91-LE85/2420/2421 for 1" midrange. For a three way: 076/077= HF, 2441/2440/375/376+ 2397 midrange and 2235H/LE14H/136a. I need to say something, but first: NO FLAME INTENDED, I am not a fan of Titanium diaphragms or domes, BUT..., Member 'NoRealtalent' is my best Bud, we agree about 99.9% of the time and I have said to him that, (in general and in my experience) Titanium, TO ME, is harsh sounding, BUT..., his Westlake BBSM15's use a 2426/25H compression driver in tandem with a beautiful Westlake wood horn. Now, here's the kicker, he says that they are AMAZING. When he says that to me, I've got to believe that he means exactly that, I know him too well and he doesn't just use those types of terms lightly. So it must be in the enormous passive crossover ( about 40-60 hours to build at their shop). So..., I imagine, some crossover GURU, read: Giskard/Ian McK, could design a charge coupled/bypass capped/ passive unit that would be killer and 'tame the Titan" too, should you go that route. You could do about the same by using cones/domes too. There are so many varibles to think about. It is sooooooooo hard to find out what sounds good, even if you've heard what is suppose to be a great combo, was it in a good room? Were the source componants up to snuff? Exactly, a crap shoot. This is why it has taken alot of us YEARS to piece together our systems, and given that, I believe most of us would say: we're not there yet. The real guide in this journey is your very own ears. I used mine and have what to me, is a sweet sounding, dynamic and powerful system, able to whisper nuance or set you back in your chair at high, undistorted db levels, at least enough so, that I can just listen to music for hours without thinking about it's possible shortcomings. That's a good place to be. I hope you can gleen enough information from the replies to get a direction. Best of luck in your quest, Regards, Steve G.

[norealtalent]

... (in general and in my experience) Titanium, TO ME, is harsh sounding, BUT..., his Westlake BBSM15's use a 2426/25H compression driver in tandem with a beautiful Westlake wood horn. Now, here's the kicker, he says that they are AMAZING. When he says that to me, I've got to believe that he means exactly that, I know him too well and he doesn't just use those types of terms lightly. ... Best of luck in your quest, Regards, Steve G.

I ran those Westies for a couple weeks with the stock horns and drivers. I wanted to get to know them and what they really sound like. At the continual recommendation of a few other members, I finally hooked a pair of Smith Horns with 2441's in place of the titanium's. The stock Westie's are nice and I could live with them if I had nothing else. With the killer Westlake crossover the Smith/2441 rig offers a seamless transparency that fills the room with a smooth, rich quality of detail that I have otherwise only experienced through very small and personal live performances or The Old Mill System of Jonathan Weiss who was graciuos enough to invite me for a personal audition of his RCA/WE tube/field coil system. Keeping in mind of course, one of his horn drivers sells for more than I gave for the Westie's complete, in my experience, you just can't beat a Smith Horn.

[4313B]

I would like to hear what people have to say about horns vs dome/cone speaker systems.

Well, after reading this thread all I can say is forget it - get out and listen to some systems. Talk about them while you are sitting and listening to them.

There have to be some guys left out in Denver who can hook you up with some good horn systems. I know a few that are on this forum but will leave it up to them to come forward. They've kind of lost interest here and don't read or post anymore. I'll send a few PM's and see what happens. I'd suggest hooking up with some local audiophile groups. Check out Ron Gold and Intrinsic Sound if they are still around. Intrinsic Sound wasn't too big on JBL but that's a good thing. They can give you a whole different perspective. Ron might have some horn systems around. Howard Sound is long gone, as is Barath Acoustics. (Howard had the big JBL and Cetec Gauss bins back when that whole thing exploded) Listen Up had the Klispch stuff for awhile I think. Can't remember who the big Mac Dealer was. They had tons of horn systems. Anyway, people had to have bought all this stuff hence the audiophile groups.

[Maron Horonzakz]

I have a Klipschorn Hybred...The first thing you do when aquireing a Khorn is to throw away the woofer and drivers...Mine use the JBL E145 or 2205(early units) the top horn is a very large Smith horn with 375/2440. Tweeter is a 2404 all useing a electronic xover & six amps. The Smith horn must be capable of going down to 400hz . The JBL 2397 is too small. this system has been in operation for 25 years. So yes I do love an all horn system. The dynamic range and explosive wave fronts still amaze me. Ive tried many times to use a none horn system & meet with great disapointment..Yes ive heard some sweet direct driver speakers. But keep going back to all horn system for FULL satisfaction...Im right your all wrong and that ends the debate.

[norealtalent]

...But keep going back to all horn system for FULL satisfaction...Im right your all wrong and that ends the debate.

...and thats the name of that tune folks!

[JuniorJBL]

Wow you guys are giving great input here.

Giskard About the only person here still is Gold Sound.(I should go down to talk with him)
Intrinsic I think is still here but a very small more used store. I did buy some cheap drivers from a while back.

Listen-up is mostly all high end with some avarege stuff as well (B&W,Classe,Sonus Faber,MF) but thier pro side is JBL pro. I do know most of the people down there.

There are a few other stores here with mid to high-end as well. not very many horns tho.

I had to go to Ft.Collins to listen to the horns I did listen to (Avantgarde Duo's) They did sound good but there were some things I did not like about them as well. The room was good but they were using single-ended 5watt tubes and truth be known I am a SS guy who likes power unless the tube is a BIG MAC or BAT. other then that I did like them.

The reason I say JBL only is because I really do not want to join another forum and would like to learn all I can from here. If I keep trying to learn all the different stuff plus new stuff I loose time to do the things I want to do.

As was said it is time to go listen and it will most likly be gold sound.
If we do get some others to respond that would be great. And if there are some people from the denver area that would be even better.

Thanks Again Shane

[4313B]

I really do not want to join another forum and would like to learn all I can from here. If I keep trying to learn all the different stuff plus new stuff I loose time to do the things I want to do.

Oh. I meant group not forum. There used to be several audiophile groups around in Denver and one could go listen to different loudspeaker systems in different environments. That's kind of how one finds out just how crappy a pair of say L300's can sound in one home and how great they can sound in another home.