What speaker is best for a Leslie 122?

[SKOOTUR]

i forgot to add in last post that since i won't be using the tube amp as a final output which i believe uses 16 ohm loads. i intend to use the original tube amp as a preamp just to change the sound before it goes into the solidstate amps. some recommendations may not be correct if one was to think i needed or wanted original like driver application. the final stage output will be high power electronic solidstate which could run 4 to 8 ohms depending on how it gets set up. i havn't decided yet if i will run dual Lf drivers or one. i'm just in the idea research stage right now. thanks all.

[toddalin]

If you want to "feel" the sound, maybe try a W15GTI for the bass. And to really "plumb the depths," maybe put the signal through a dBX subharmonic synthesizer.

The W15GTI goes lower, louder than any of the other JBL 15's and is rated at 700 wrms (5,000 wpeak). I use this combination (pushed by a dBX/Crown PSA-2xh) for my home theater sub and it rocks. Also, the W15GTI can be used in a smaller cabinet than the other 15's.

[Bob Womack]

A point to be made is that part of the natural sound of a B-3& Leslie in pop music and in much of its use elsewhere, comes from creative use of distortion in the tube preamp and power amp. I discovered that clean sound through a Leslie speaker doesn't sound like the classic Hammond/Leslie or guitar/Leslie sound at all. You actually need the distortion produced by the under-powered amps to get the "grit" that keyboardists typically want.

Typically, if your amplification needs exceed those of the Leslie, you'll want to mic it and put it in the P.A. or build mics into the cabinet as Goff Professional does. These guys are about the most recognized of the long-time B-3/Leslie specialists. Their client list is kind of a who's-who of B-3.

Bob

[toddalin]

A point to be made is that part of the natural sound of a B-3& Leslie in pop music and in much of its use elsewhere, comes from creative use of distortion in the tube preamp and power amp. I discovered that clean sound through a Leslie speaker doesn't sound like the classic Hammond/Leslie or guitar/Leslie sound at all. You actually need the distortion produced by the under-powered amps to get the "grit" that keyboardists typically want.

Typically, if your amplification needs exceed those of the Leslie, you'll want to mic it and put it in the P.A. or build mics into the cabinet as Goff Professional does. These guys are about the most recognized of the long-time B-3/Leslie specialists. Their client list is kind of a who's-who of B-3.

Bob

Totally agreed! Of course Skootur is looking to a church setting so the "grunge" may not be necessary. Couldn't play "rock" organ without it or key click. Even Keith Emerson used lots of Leslies.

[Bob Womack]

Yeah, Goff does Keith's B-3s and Leslies for him. I've just found that many of even the sweet B-3 sounds count on the Leslie's limited headroom to smooth out the keyclicks. A lot of the B-3 sounds used in Contemporary Christian and P&W are the same growly organ sounds used for the Allman Brothers. For instance, I was listening to FFH's nice female solo song, "Your Love is Life to Me" from Found a Place, and they've got gorgeous growly, milky B-3 in the last verse and choruses.

Just a thought.

Bob

[edgewound]

If you want to complete that Leslie with a 15"...use an E140.

[Rex Everything]

I have a leslie cab(not sure the model) It is a tolex covered model w/ a solid state amp that is disconnected. The reverb pan has been disconnected and removed as well. My point here is when I bought this old cab about 10 years ago it had what appeared to be a JBL D-130 w/ an orange back.

A few years ago I decided I would pull the 130 out since I had not been using the cab. When I pulled it out and took a look at it, it was not marked d-130 but just had a 15L on it if I remember correctly.

Does any one know anything about this speaker? I thought it would be a factory speaker w/ the "L" notation.

The cab is on loan at a friends house right now but I will try to get him to pull the back and take a pic and write down the model.

Any info on this speaker would be appreciated.

[audition]

Some background on Leslie conversions here, (as well as any Hammond product) Many companies over the years tried to imitate the Works of "Bill Beer" Bill owned Keyboard Products located in Los Angeles CA. Even Leslie tried to work out a deal with Bill to Produce his Products..... Bill was very protective of his circuits so no one could copy his work, many studio rental companies tried but were so inferior at it there was NO competition!
Bill was factory trained at Hammond and later taught classes for Hammond to "create Hammond techs" Pretty much any hit song you can think of was done from the 60's 70's 80's etc was done on either a "Bill Beer, Keyboard Products" Hammond B-3 and Leslie. Bills work was so good it was the only stuff bands wanted to tour with.... (nothing like being in austrailia or some far away place on tour and having your hammond go "down" on you) even the "expression pedals were redesigned to be fully roadworthy" Bill even made an expensive "Box" so you coult take the Hammond and leslie to any part of the world and it would be in tune.... it would take any voltage any Hz and put out 120v 60Hz (as you know a Hammond from UK was run with 50 HZ motors on the tone wheel) and if you tried to use a UK Hammond over here it was out of tune as the tone wheels are basicly a guitar pick-up with a wheel with so many notches in the wheel to create a certian frequency all run by a motor with many sized notched wheels on the same shaft... Now more background, My cousin Mike worked for Bill for almost thirty years (till his back went out - Hammonds are heavy! even on an organ dolly) Bill was like family to us and I worked there also off and on. Bill worked on anything and everything in the shop from mastering boards, amps, synthesizers- you name it. "Keyboard products" was a JBL authorized dealer as well as Fender Rhodes. most of the time that I worked there was when they got backed up and needed help getting the jobs out... when we made a Hammond portable, we gutted the Hammond completely and made the portable from the ground up from the marine grade plywood, vinyl, legs, etc. only retaining the tone generator, manuals, drawbars, etc. (even in its flight case a Portable Hammond is heavy) we completely tore down the tone generator and rebuilt it, new buss-bars if needed. nothing went untouched. Bills Leslies were famous everyone in the who's-who used them, Pink Floyd, fleetwood mac,Prince and on and on.... at one time I had the serial number list of all the portables and leslies and who originaly had them made and the list was like a rock and roll history book. In the eighties if you provided the lesslie it was a flat rate of 2,000 to high power it and it was guaranteed to be roadworthy. Most of what I did was Highpower the Leslies (but also did the Hammonds) first thing on the leslies was to remove everything - then rebuild the fast/slow motors for the upper and lower section, new tires installed and relaxed, next was to drill the patern for the HF driver mounting plate (bill had special plates and throat adapters machined out of aluminum with the proper exponential curve) the mounting plates and adapters were costly to have made due to the precision needed so when it was time for more to be ordered a large batch was machined. We used a 2482 driver for the high end, and an E-140-B on the low end. the lower rotor was completely serviced and a brand new custom sewn cloth rotor cover and a brand new "o" ring installed over it (which had to be specialy centered , just as the tires did on the drive motors)as was the upper horn assembly. Next came time to make an amplifier.... same as anything bill designed it was from the ground up.... first came placing the artwork over the coated pc board and exposed it to U.V. for a determined amount of time, then into the acid to etch the board, then to the drill press and drill all the pads - I then stuffed all the boards, soldered them wired them, mounted all parts, connectors, boards, heatsinks, etc. to the chasis then handed it over to bill who put it on the scope and did all the testing and a few things he didnt share.... after the amps were "burnt-in" and considered "ready" (later versions were conservatevly rated at 250w RMS) I would then take an electric eraser.... the type draftsmen use (like a dremel only with an eraser core) and remove all numbers from all IC's transistors etc. and mark the parts with paint pens with a designated color for a designated part.... thus no one in the field could reverse engineer Bills designs. I have a handbuilt Keyboard Products bi-amp (1 of a kind that Bill made for my 4350's) that finally died (the capacitor normalisation circuit that trips the output relay no longer trips the relay) I just googled and found a few links --- and im sure keyboard magazine as well as others have many archived interviews with Bill (there were stacks of them at the shop each with interviews with bill in them - even some with my cousin Mike) here are the few links I found durring a quick search.
the "Mark" in the first link is not me.

http://http://www.zeni.net/pipermail...er/035100.html

http://http://www.fortunecity.com/bu..._bill_beer.htm

http://http://www.keysnovello.com/jo...cle/index.html

http://http://www.keysnovello.com/studio.html

http://http://www.sonsofchamplin.com...ssKeyboard.htm

on that last link you can see a picture of one of the portable Hammond B-3' labled "Bills Chicago Hammond B-3" its not a big pic though.... Mark

[toddalin]

Keyboard Products competition was Valley Sound located on Ventura Blvd near Universal Studios. They also did the Hammond portibility conversions and actually had fiberglass cases made to order, with a nice wooden top made. The top was flat and was easy to stack additional keyboards on.

When my Hammond D (an early version of the C which is a B with solid "church" sides) was involved in a car accident (the van it was in hit the California/Nevada Inspection station), Valley Sound did the conversion (including the full pedal board that they had never done before), added percussion, and refinished the two Leslies in black. The conversion was about $2,000 back in 1973. I was supprised that the insurance covered the conversion rather than totalling out the organ.

Look at the early pics from the band "Angel" to see what the Valley Sound conversions looked like.

[audition]

We re-did MANY valley sound conversions, some were redone in less then a year by their owners. KBP conversions had flat tops and were magneticaly shielded so you could put other synthesizers on top of course the mu metal shielding cost extra.

[audition]

You should have seen some oF the leslie conversions that came into the shop for us to re-do... I remember one that had dual non-JBL 18" on a 45 degree wedge above the lower drum... many tried to use stock off the shelf amps with a cross over in leslies.... but there was a reason the equiptment managers as well as the musicians insisted on K.B.P. stuff the "sound" "reliability" and "quality" K.B.P. was not the cheapest.... but they were the best!

[SKOOTUR]

it's cool to come back and see the thread has grown and very informative. thanks for the comments. i'm still in washington state,so not sure when i'll get back to virginia to tinker with this. yes we're in a contemporary worship atmosphere and will go to the gospel type music(i guess you call it gospel) where there is a lot more bass or low end. when the volume is up on the low notes it sounds like the speaker is going to rip apart and sounds real bad. we havn't had any rock sounds yet lol. might be cool if they did once in a while. i have mic'd the cabinet before in a seperate room with awesome sound,but they decided they wanted it in the sanctuary and use it for a monitor so to speak.the minister of music won't let me take a signal off the digital output to supplement the sound.somedays the fader is like a roller coaster ride lol. when i turn up the organ the player turns the pedal down and so on. so it's a constant fight some days to maintain a good mix of the organ.we have seperate monitors with headphones,speakers and wireless monitors,but the player insists on the speaker.since she hears the speaker at a different level than i do because of location we have a battle lol. well some days it's not funny,but i just take into account she doesn't understand. i placed the speaker further away so she would have to turn it up to hear which helped,but the speaker has crept closer to player. the current organ used is the electronic xk-2. they eventually want to get a b-3. i guess we'll get it straight one day. we currently have to setup and teardown weekly since we're renting a sanctuary in a christian school. i'm not an expert at the sound reinforcement and mixing,but do pretty good.i don't notice any clicking sounds except from the relays which i eventually plan to change to solidstate switching. you don't hear any noises except when i mic the cabinet,plus it's an xk-2 organ. i would like to keep the sound as close as possible while going all solidstate. that's why i want to keep the tube amps intact and use as preamps,but not sure how i can load them to get the same warm tube sound as well as the natural distortion when necessary.the gti speakers sounds like the ones i need for what i want. i also have an oldschool crown amp. i think it says ps-2 or psa-2 on the front. that thing kicks butt. i love it. in the end i want it all to have updated solidstate ...any controls,the amps and signal processing if any.the cabinet has a coilspring type reverb in it,but probably won't use it. the xk-2 has reverb and overdrive knobs built in if we want rvb.or distortion added. i will eventually experiment with internal mics. i figure the pzm or planar types,but don't know for sure. the sm-57 & sm-58's work fine so far when i use them.well that's enough of my babble for now lol. thanks everyone for the info. very informative for me in addition to reading some stuff on the net. have a great day! btw bob w. ...you must not live too far from me. i saw some of your stuff about the mini and trips. it's like reminiscing reading the different areas you wrote about hampton roads area.laterz

[Bob Womack]

Yup, I'm on the Southside. Tomorrow we are going for a Guiness world record loading the Jamestown/Scotland ferry.

Bob

[kziss]

Hi Audition.
I am a Hammond / Leslie enthusiast from Melbourne , Australia.
I have learned how to work on and modify Hammonds through the work that I have done on my 1962 C3 organ such as replacing the aged wax capacitors of the Tone Wheel Generator ( TG ) with new correct micro farad spec capacitors , recalibrating the whole TG to produce a louder and warmer sounding TG output curve and repairs and modifications to the AO28 preamp. I play my Hammond organ through a Leslie 122 that I have done some modifications to , including adding a JBL 2482 treble horn driver and I may put in a JBL-E140 8 ohms bass speaker.

I am currently repairing the gooey black foam related damage done to the manual resistance wires of my newly purchased 1965 C3.

I am quite interested in learning about the modifications that Bill Beer did to Hammonds and Leslies in order to get his customized fat sound.
Information about the Bill Beer organs and Leslies seems very hard to find and some stock Hammond/ aLeslie purists dont like the Bill Beer sound , but from examples that I have heard , I quite like the fat sound of the Bill Beer organs and the Bill Beer Leslies.

I have read that Bill Beer used to recalibrate the TG to produce a fatter sound than the Hammond factory stock TG calibration .

Do you know anything about the output levels specs of the Bill Beer TG recalibration ?

Where there particular areas of the TG frequency ranges that Bill Beer boosted or attenuated in order to get his particular sound ?

Bill Beer was quoted as having measured the TG output levels of six ''hot bitchin'' B3 organs and that he then used these as the basis of his TG recalibration specs and he said that he could recalibrate the TG to make it sound ''fat and ballsy''.

I know that the Hammond factory used to calibrate the TG's to have stronger outputs in the bass and the lower midrange region until 1956 when the factory TG output curve was changed to have slightly lessened bass and lower midrange levels and that this new TG output curve remained until the end of Hammond TG organ production in 1975.

Do you know anything about thes six ''hot bitchin'' B3's that Bill Beer used as the basis of his TG output curves , and what production years these B3's were from ?

As well as recalibrating the TG and replacing the aged wax capacitors of the TG notes 49 to 91 of the pre 1964 organs , do you know if Bill Beer also modified the TG note filters to produce a more pure sine wave quality and less background rumble or hum ?

Do you know anything about how the frequency response of the solid state Bill Beer organ preamps differed from that of a stock AO28 preamp ?

I have been told that the Bill Beer biamped solid state high power Leslie amplifiers had a three position tonality switch , and that this switch selected:
1) the straight flat response
2 ) boosted bass ( for organ)
3 ) boosted bass and treble ( for guitar ).

Do you know what the frequency range and the decibel level of the bass boost for organ was and what the frequency range for the boosted bass and treble for the guitar was ?

Although Bill Beer used the JBL E-140 or the K-140 bass speaker and the JBL 2482 treble driver , do you know if there are better JBL or other brand bass speakers that are more efficient and that produce a deeper bass response than the JBL E-140 or the JBL K-140 bass speakers ?

I have searched the JBL website for a frequency response curve chart but all that I could find was a brochure that described the E-140 series and the K-140 series speakers together with some other speakers , but there were no frequency response curve charts on that brochure.

Do you have a frequency response curve chart for the JBL E-10 or the K-140 speakers ?

I have been told that Gregg Rollie from the early Santana years used a Bill Beer modified organ or a Bill Beer Leslie on the early Santana albums but no one has yet verified this .
I know that Tom Coster and other subsequent Santana organists used a Bill Beer organ.

Apparently Dick Sims used a Bill Beer organ and Leslie on Eric Clapton's early 70' albums.

I have been told that Steve Walsh used a Bill Beer organ and Bill Beer Leslie on the 1976 album "Leftoverture". Do you know if this is correct ?

Are you able to say who the other big name organists / bands that used Bill Beer organs and Bill Beer Leslies were ?

Dop you know what year the modified Bill Beer organs and Leslies first started appearing ?

I am a big fan of the mid - late 60's / 70's era Rock music.

I am quite interested in finding out what I can about these things and Bill Beer's legacy in improving the tonality of the Hammonds and Leslies.

Thank you very much in advance for a reply and for your patience with my many questions.

All the best.
Kon