Questions About My New 250TI SE

[superbee973]

Hello everyone, My name is Nick and I recently purchased some 250TI SE Speakers through AUDIGON. I want to thank everyone who assisted me with information about finding a pair of my "dream" speakers. Anyway, I have a few questions about this speaker but first I will describe my system as some have asked. I will also post pictures of the speakers from work tomorrow. I purchased them for $3400 and they look as new, although they will need a refoam now that I have played them loud. My system is at the bottom. I listen to mostly classic rock, jazz and classical. My original speakers were NHT 2.9 and Infinity RS-1Bs which I still have.

My initial question is: My JBL speakers seam to be really really harsh in the vocal area. I have tried different XLR Cables and MIT speaker cables and ven swithed in a Parasound 2200 MKII and a set of Aragon Palladians but the best I could get was with the set-up below. The timbre of the voice just is not right. My room is dedicated and is in a daylight basement that's 12.5'x28'. The speakers are on one end of the room, about 7 feet apart and several feet from the wall. The room is carpeted and has some furniture and built in shelves.......The seating position is about 12 feet out from the speakers. I have tried moving them around. Thanks

Audio Alchemy DDS Pro CD Transport
Audio Alchemy DTI32PRO DeJitter Device
Camelot Uther MKII Dac (All I2S Silver Cabled)
Llano Designs Amplifier (Deanna 200 WPC Class A)
MIT Proline XLR IC Cables
AQ Midnight Speaker Cables
JBL 250TI SP
(2) NHT SW3P Subwoofers/Amps/Xovers (250 WPC)
Chang Lightspeed 9600 ISO

[Nightbrace]

Thats unfortunate to hear , they are my DREAM speakers too! The fact that you played them LOUD has nothing to do with the surrounds going bad, they deteriorate with time, not by being overdriven. And I am assuming you just noticed it after playing them. Given their collectibility and exceptional sound, I would get the entire cone replaced and have them done right by a certified JBL tech.

As to why they sound harsh, well they are VERY detailed speakers, I doubt your room is the problem, I think it will just take time to get fully adjusted to them. I have had Infinities myself, Column II's, which were really tame, and many consider them to be the best Infinity EVER. I think its just that you have gone from relatively tame speakers compared to these 250Ti's, they are as accurate and detailed as they come, or at least that I have ever heard. And for me it doesn't get any better. I just pray that there's nothing wrong with them.

First things first, inspect the other 8" drivers, and use a good diagnosis CD at low levels to listen to the individual drivers to make sure they are all functioning. Then if all checks out, get the woofers repaired. And if I were you, I would be a little upset at the original seller if he didn't let you know about this before-hand. The good news is that I don't think you damaged anything. I hope all works out and you can get accustomed to these speakers, if not, I'd always be willing to take them off your hands /

[Nightbrace]

The timbre of the voice just is not right.

BTW, I have never heard anyone complain about this, JBL's make vocals come to life and bring the singer into the room, as JBL arguably builds the best midrange drivers ever made. AND YES the timbre should be different compared to the Infinities which will be warmer and smoother. If you have a Diana Krall CD, listen to her voice on each speaker, she will tell you which speaker produces vocals better / But again, make sure the speakers are functioning properly, and get the woofers fixed. If after some time you are not liking these speakers, JBL is still the way to go, they have made tamer speakers, I have a set right now, the L112, which might be a little closer to the Infinities, and a heck of a lot cheaper.

The equipment you have is all World Class gear and my guess is that the JBL's are bringing out things that you have never heard, afterall thats their job; to utilize every ounce of whats given to them. Just make sure you are playing quality recordings as they can sound a bit harsh with poor quality recordings, but thats whats they are supposed to do, bring the flaws of the poor recordings to the listeners attention and make great recordings sparkle. >BE PATIENT<

[oznob]

Nightbrace is right on the money! I had 250ti's and too many others to mention. They are by far the most dynamic, accurate speaker I have ever heard, bar none! The height and width of the soundstage is without peer, IMHO. Most certainly get those woofers re-coned by a pro. Pay close attention to the mid-range drivers, I have a friend who blew one of the 5" mids and had to have it re-coned. Although rare, you may have a bit of a crossover problem that may need checking. I would hit up Giskard or Zilch on that. There are plenty more guys on this forum with much more knowledge than I have but, speaking as a previous owner, they should be knocking your socks off if working properly!

Best of luck!

Mark

[Nightbrace]

Pay close attention to the mid-range drivers, I have a friend who blew one of the 5" mids and had to have it re-coned. Although rare, you may have a bit of a crossover problem that may need checking.
Mark

I agree Mark, and it almost sounds like a midrange problem to me from his general description, I have never encountered a crossover problem yet with JBL's, but if its a crossover problem there is a considerable risk that it may have damaged the drivers as well. We all need to pray tonight for Nick .

To be on the safe side, I think it would be smart to actually bring the entire speaker system to an authorized JBL service center, because you could be damaging them even more by using them.

Nick, would it be possible for us to see the original ad for the speakers? Maybe there's some information there.

And again if the seller was AWARE of any of these problems he needs to be held liable. Even if its as simple as a surround thats deteriorated, he should have at least let you know about it, especially for $3400, but these days you never know.

[glen]

... I doubt your room is the problem, .../

I'm not so sure it isn't the room, if all your basement walls are brick or concrete block they will increase the mid/hi frequency energy similar to the way bass can get out of control in a normal room. I had this experience when I moved into my 1927 vintage all-stucco house (plaster on lath masonry walls) my 4311Bs sounded very harsh and fatiguing and I had to dial the mid and treble way down for them to be listenable.

If you have the hard, brick walls you should do the mirror trick where one person sits at the listening position while another moves a mirror along flat against the wall. When the person at the listening position can see the reflection of the speaker in the mirror then that's the spot that should get some acoustical damping to eliminate harsh sound reflections. For a quick test you can tack up rugs or blankets and see if it helps to reduce the irritating effects you've noticed.

Good Luck!

[Zilch]

If the foam surrounds are deteriorating, do NOT play them any more until they are repaired, as it can damage the voice coils. Only the spider is maintaining the alignment when they play. Not good.

Having the woofers refoamed is MUCH cheaper than reconing them. Voice coils have to be good to do that....

[JuniorJBL]

I would first try to listen at low levels with music that you are familiar with.


(Maybe Dire Straits "Your Latest trick") That is a well recorded song as well as album.

Diana Krall (as before) will help with vocals.... on and on.

Your by-pass caps could be toast (mine were) and when I re-did my crossovers it was better but then I decided to upgrade mine to 250Ti's they were L250's. So another crossover (This time to be CC'ed) to be made for my upgrade.

As others have said they are very well behaved speakers that can handle quite a bit of power. One other thing might not be a prob until high volume is they were rated at 6 ohms with the Ti version. I am not totaly sure about yours but Someone else my chime in. Your equipment should be able to handle this but I have never listened to that equipment before so I do not know.

One thing is for sure if you are willing to follow the instructions that others will give then you will be able to find a solution.

It also sounds as if you may need to tweek your seating/speaker position a bit. Do not be afraid to move in close to the speakers or move the speakers from what might be a dead place (room mode)

Another thing you can do (you need two people) is to move one speaker all the way to the back wall facing stright forward at about where you will be spacing the speaker.

Then have someone point the other speaker about 12-18" behind your listening position and try to keep the speaker pointed there while moving the speaker away from the wall listening for LF response to become the cleanest it can.
Then tilt the other speaker the same 12-18" behind and start moving it forward as well. At this point you should be playing some good female jazz vocal and listen for the best image you can get. (where the speakers seem to disappear)

I learned this from a Sumiko rep and it has worked as well as anything else I have tried.

Keep us posted

Edit: I was writing when Glen and Zilch were posting and this is some good advice

[Nightbrace]

I'm not so sure it isn't the room,
Good Luck!

Considering that he's spent this much on equipment, I figured that he would have a decent listening room . And he did mention that the other speakers sounded good.

And by the way thanks for the suggestions, I have a masonite, "stucco", room, and it sucks for JBL's. I just moved everything into my other room, NIGHT AND DAY. But I will try what you said. You think a tapestry on the back wall would help?

[duaneage]

My 4411s had too much moidrange output in the room I set them up in, flat response speakers in a smooth walled room sound pretty hard. Dialing down the midrange controls licked it.

[baldrick]

The foam should NOT be damaged by you playing loud. The bigest problem with LE14 in 250TIs is that the voice coil damages too easy, maybe especially when 250s are beeing used in surround setup. This is the reason why two friends of mine is running a HP filter of 50 hz when useing them in their surround setup, and useing a seperate woofers from 50 and down. Another issue I think of is that the SE version is really not that old and the foam should NOT be damaged by age.

So my question, you are of course sure it's the foam that's broken and not the voice coil?

[JuniorJBL]

The foam should NOT be damaged by you playing loud. The bigest problem with LE14 in 250TIs is that the voice coil damages too easy, maybe especially when 250s are beeing used in surround setup. This is the reason why two friends of mine is running a HP filter of 50 hz when useing them in their surround setup, and useing a seperate woofers from 50 and down. Another issue I think of is that the SE version is really not that old and the foam should NOT be damaged by age.

So my question, you are of course sure it's the foam that's broken and not the voice coil?

This I have only seen with less than optimal amps. The only times I have ever heard an le14h-x pop is when you have average power amps. I was using Hafler XL 280's adcom 555MKII and if you reall got on it they would pop. But since I have moved to better amps this is no longer a problem. These things can and will "Rip your head off". With that said the LE14H-1 is not a boomy driver but has a real nice LF. and if they are in a smaller room they will have quite a bit of LF.

[4313B]

The only things wrong with the LE14H-1 stem from "user error".

It's kind of funny to read end user comments about various transducers once those transducers get into the wild.

[JuniorJBL]

The only things wrong with the LE14H-1 stem from "user error".

It's kind of funny to read end user comments about various transducers once those transducers get into the wild.

[jblnut]

Just to add a little bit about getting 250ti's dialed-in...


As others have noted, this is an extremely revealing - and flat - loudspeaker. Although your list of components is very impessive, it does not necessarily guarantee success with these speakers. Building a good sounding system is often a trial and error process and many times a component that you used to think sounded great may no longer be "right" for the new configuration. I changed many components after the 250ti's went into my system until I found the right mix. I still find the upper midrange a bit too "much" for high volume classic-rock listening and that's what the EQ is for in my system. My only (lingering and mostly minor) criticism of the 250 is that I still feel the tonal balance changes somewhat as the volume goes way up. When I get it sounding perfect for normal levels, cranking the volume up makes it sound too bright. Taming the mid/high end for cranking sessions leaves it dull sounding once the volume comes back down. This is also an issue as I switch back and forth between vinyl and CD's.
I don't know if your 250Ti's have the fully adjustable xover bars on the back but this is another easy way to adjust them to suit your taste.

As I said it's a minor issue and simple to fix with a good EQ. I still wouldn't trade them for anything and that is the bottom line .

jblnut