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Thread: Proper drivers for intended applications"A constant theme

  1. #31
    RIP 2011 Zilch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hapy._.face
    But what I don't subscribe to is the fact I cannot make a FAR superior system using the same drivers (properly grouped of course) when I have none of the constraints that limited JBl to make the overall product superlative in the first place. Correct?
    Highly unlikely. You can make incremental improvements to the apparent constraints you've highlighted, and some others, perhaps, but the order of magnitude improvement which you postulate here is an unrealistic expectation.

    It has taken nearly a year and a half of conscientious learning and experimentation, much of it documented in this forum, for me to get to the point where I can competently assemble even a two-way that measures and sounds decent.

    Witnesseth today's fare:
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  2. #32
    RIP 2011 Zilch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giskard
    Yes, swapping horns/lenses willy nilly without fully understanding them and making the required system changes is no different than buying a lottery ticket.
    Yup. Even THEN, it can still sound like poop!

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zilch
    It has taken nearly a year and a half of conscientious learning and experimentation
    Multiply it by roughly 13 and then tell us how you feel. You've only just begun! Don't run out of gas yet!
    Quote Originally Posted by Zilch
    Yup. Even THEN, it can still sound like poop!
    Well yeah, some stuff just isn't meant to go together.

  4. #34
    Dis Member mikebake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hapy._.face
    I have no choice but to believe this is true. Simply put- I'm not knowledgeable enough about it argue with you. I do understand product and marketing very well, and I know that JBL didn't exactly conform to design excellence in every project. Budget, time, manufacturing, and aesthetics all play a role in the process when putting something together and it's easy for a beginner to look at this and say "Oh, I have no manufacturing budget. I have all the time in the world. And I will spend extra effort to make it look good" (for example) "Why not put together a group of celebrated drivers for a dream system?" As a newbie- I see a lot of threads dedicated to crossover manipulation, driver substitution, and build from scratch projects and I want to jump in with my armload of toys (too) yet armed with little information on how they will work together. It's also easy to see that JBL made inferior cabinets sometimes. There is no question- these can be upgraded. JBL also made poor choices in crossover components (from what I gather). And (dare I say it) But what I don't subscribe to is the fact I cannot make a FAR superior system using the same drivers (properly grouped of course) when I have none of the constraints that limited JBl to make the overall product superlative in the first place. Correct?
    Yes, there were some market compromises in some areas on things you mentioned, like enclosures etc. and as Giskard said, they are indeed valid and potentially rewarding areas of interest/effort. I was refering mostly to driver applications directly, but a side point is that as you start "improving" some of these systems, you start to understand and appreciate the decisions/directions of the original designers. I'm just also arguing for error on the side of understanding the experience that went into driver/circuit/voicing some of the systems. There can be/are some really excellent DIY designs using JBL drivers, but it is often harder than it looks to get a really high quality result. That is both the challenge and the fun, I would say.

  5. #35
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    Agreed.

    BTW -

    May I suggest a big helping of biased filters for the Performance Series?
    There really isn't much else one can do to make that already excellent system "better" and that's a good thing.

  6. #36
    Dis Member mikebake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giskard
    Agreed.

    BTW -

    May I suggest a big helping of biased filters for the Performance Series?
    There really isn't much else one can do to make that already excellent system "better" and that's a good thing.
    I thought about that, but right now I am really frustrated trying to figure out my room(s). I gotta start with the right room/placement and work from there, and right now I am struggling; no easy solution at my house to "get it all done" i.e. all-in-one HT and stereo listening. Frustrating.

  7. #37
    Senior Member frank23's Avatar
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    Driving to work today I thought a little about this thread and it came to me that while I feel that I can swap around JBL parts until I like the sound, to some of you this swapping feels just like what I feel when I see people modifying my beloved BMW E30 M3.

    The BMW E30 M3 was about perfect for its goal the way BMW launched it in 1987. It had a high revving 4-cilinder brabham F1 related engine with a short crank [because in racing revs=power for certain displacement volume]. It had large spoilers. etc. etc.

    They built it the way they did because they wanted a car that would give them a base for Group-A touring car victory [and it did, being the most succesfull touring car ever] and still be useable by normal people, sit in a traffic jam, build up miles and miles and be BMW reliable.

    Some people put a [non M] 6-cilinder in it for adding refinement, some put a V8 in it, or a turbo. Some lower it to the extreme, some pimp it to the extreme. Some are butchering the cars for their engine wanting to use it for racing, and leaving the body and interior for scrap.

    But that is not the way BMW intended the combined package, and I don't like it. There are "allowed upgrades" like the Schnitzer suspension I have on mine, but it very soon gets ugly and people with pimped E30 M3's are mostly ignored by "those who did not tinker with theirs".

    Some of us must feel the same about JBL products.

    Frank

  8. #38
    RIP 2011 Zilch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by frank23
    Some of us must feel the same about JBL products.
    Yeah, there's limits, even among the fearless.

    I'd find cutting 2405H's into the face of 4435's "problematic" on many levels, for example.

    NO issues with doing that to L200's.

    [Might have some OTHER suggestions, tho.... ]

    Edit: A distinction of merit: Some of the old stuff just begs to be updated. The knowledge and technology have advanced considerably in the meantime. All it has is resale value; more, ironically, as parts than whole....

  9. #39
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    Interesting analogy (the whole BMW:JBL thing). I think (in regard to the vintage ones) BMW rarely compromised in overall product superiority. They made mistakes, perhaps. From what I can tell JBL (like any large successful company) has compromised*. JBL has its flagship and its econo. The 'econo' (today) in JBL lineups is pretty bad- the 'econo' in a BMW is still somewhat above average when it comes to cars. So, overall product loyalty is high. The BMW brand implies quality. The JBL (brand) conjures up a wide spectrum of images: from crap to near sonic perfection. Today's BMW is not yesterday's. And most of yesterday's BMWs fall short of today's better cars. That's not to say people demand the integrity of the original. It serves as a benchmark. If a modern home is better insulated and designed- it's still no license to bulldoze a well preserved 200 yr old colonial farmhouse to make room for more tract housing. Point is: I think it depends on what model JBL some one is planning to butcher. Some JBL models have a charm that is almost impossible to duplicate from scratch. No one is upset if I reconfigure my L212s- but mention I want to swap and play with the design of a 4345- and axes will fly. All I want is a better horn and crossover (not withstanding- a better cabinet build). I don't think that's asking too much...is it??





    * [That's not an insult to the company- in fact it's a compliment. In today's market you have to compromise somewhere in order to stay competitive. The fact JBL can still market its high end line (overseas) is testament to their overall achievements.]

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by hapy._.face
    Point is: I think it depends on what model JBL some one is planning to butcher.
    Well, I view that from the opposite perspective. The 4345 is actually worth spending time biasing as is the L212, but if you drag the Radiance model of your choice in here asking me to bias the networks I'm going to have to decline.

    As for a better horn for the 4344/4345...

  11. #41
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    Many Tastes, Many entries.

    Judgement will be awarded in several catagories:
    1) Showroom Stock/Factory Original
    2) Restored Stock/Original Configuration
    3)Pro-Sound (any and all modifications)
    4) Street-Sound (Modifications limited to Driver Change only)
    5)Home-Sound (Modification of Networks/Wiring only)


  12. #42
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    Well then. Perhaps it is too much to ask. And that's why I come here- to learn. I value the opinions. Thanks.

    fwiw: Is it that horns (in general) are sensitve and difficult to tame??

  13. #43
    Administrator Robh3606's Avatar
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    We are not trying to stifle your creativity or chop your head off. It's not that simple to change horns out. I will give you a quick comparison the 2307 used in the 4344/45 and the 2344. They are as different as night and day. One is an Exponetial and the other is Constant Directivity. When JBL made the switch over to the 4400 series the 2344 and the 2235/2234 was how they were able to do it. There is an excellent paper on the site that you should read to give you insight to just how different horns can be.

    http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...6021#post76021



    Rob

  14. #44
    Dis Member mikebake's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=hapy._.face] the 'econo' in a BMW is still somewhat above average when it comes to cars. QUOTE]
    No they are not. There isn't much of an econo BMW, and at their "econo" price point, other cars provide more/better car.

  15. #45
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    [QUOTE=mikebake]
    Quote Originally Posted by hapy._.face
    the 'econo' in a BMW is still somewhat above average when it comes to cars. QUOTE]
    No they are not. There isn't much of an econo BMW, and at their "econo" price point, other cars provide more/better car.
    Agreed. That's why I put 'econo' in quotes and said "somewhat above". Depends on what values you implement.
    We can assume the 'econo' BMW is above average in one category: price.

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